Author Topic: Lessons from the DC Killers (Read 2195 times)

mrblack · « **Reply #90 on:** October 10, 2003, 02:44:54 PM »

Yeppers in the 300wm a 190grn will carry more energy at long distance.
And have more stability over its flight path.
Also more barrlels are made for the heavyer bulletts.

mrblack · « **Reply #91 on:** October 10, 2003, 02:45:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by crabofix
Ok, So, what about the duplex? Was it ever serviceble?

Duplex=2 bullets attached to eachother, "head in buttom" and where suppose to hit 1 inch from eachother

I think it would prove to be unstable for precision shooting.

medicboy · « **Reply #92 on:** October 10, 2003, 02:46:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by crabofix
Ok, So, what about the duplex? Was it ever serviceble?

Duplex=2 bullets attached to eachother, "head in buttom" and where suppose to hit 1 inch from eachother

Never even heard of this... Don't think it has a snow balls chance in He!! of working.

crabofix · « **Reply #93 on:** October 10, 2003, 02:53:03 PM »

It is working, I have shoot it. But if it works every time or 0nly 99 out of 100 is the question. On a 300 meter range The bullits hit under 2 cm from eachother. It must have been a failure, I doubt that Sweden is the only country that have tested it. If it would have been a succes, US forces would have adopted it.

miko2d · « **Reply #94 on:** October 10, 2003, 03:00:31 PM »

medicboy: I can't tell if this is a trool or a legit question so here are a few observations.

???

An M1A is a poor choice for a do everything rifle, you might get my with one of the new M14's (note:not the mini 14 mut the updated version of the M1A) but I think it is still a poor choice. There is no real good compromise between a hunting and battle rifle. Your best bet is to get a nice bolt action for hunting.

I couldn't care less for hunting but in case I ever do, I can have a bolt rifle, sure.
What I am talking about is a paramilitary/survival rifle that would be good for combat, for medium-range 4-600 yards sniping and could also be used for hunting in emergency. The rifle one would grab if it was the only one he could take with him.

Hunting pretty much means .308, not .223. .223 does not fragment beyong 200 yards, so it will not drop a dog, let alone a deer. With people it may be fine as a wounded enemy is still out of action but a deer that did not die in place is a wasted shot.

M1A was successfully used as a battle rifle and as a decent sniper rifle. No AR-15/AR-10 would ever compare in reliability. M14 is the same as M1A except full auto, which I do not care about, and illegal to own.

The M1A comes in 18" and standard 22" barrels. I was just curious what I lose in exchganges for weight/mobility.

ditching the pos mini14, buying an ar-15 style rifle and going from there.

Not allowed to own in NYS. No AR-15s/-10s, no AKs, no SKS, no Highpoints, nothing with a pistol grip, no FN/FAL. Nothing but Mini with 5-rd magasines. Have to keep it (and 10/22) in my Brooklyn home.

Barrel weight only comes into play after several shots, they resist heating up which could change point of impact.

Barrel weight is what determines the stiffness and thus the magnitude/consistency of harmonics. Also inertial stability. The heavier the barrel, the better. Even 10/22 target shooters use .92 barrel to shoot .22lr at 100 yards.

mrblack: And I have to agree with medicboy miko You will indeed loose 50-100 Fps per inche of barrell length.
The Garande Is a little complexe for an all around weapon.

Right. But 50 or 100 are two different things when we talking about 4 inches. It's one thing to lose 200fps and another one to lose 400 fps from what, 2750fps?

The Garande Is a little complexe for an all around weapon.

Garande!? M1A - civilian version of M14, not M1 Garand.

Didn't I say you should be more attentive...

Anyway, what I am considering is basically what you had or maybe even an upgraded version.

miko

mrblack · « **Reply #95 on:** October 10, 2003, 03:11:46 PM »

Right. But 50 or 100 are two different things when we talking about 4 inches. It's one thing to lose 200fps and another one to lose 400 fps from what, 2750fps

Well Your FPS are going to depend on a couple of things really.
1) Bullett weight
2) Barrel lenght
3)chamber seating depth.
4)ambeint temp
5)wind
6)primer seating depth
7)bullet seating dept
8)rate of twist in barrel
10) and is weapon gas operated semi auto or bolt action

Now as your choice of weapons.
givin your limitations because of your location I think you have choosen the right weapon.

I would personaly go with the Longer barrel But thats just me.
And I would go with a heavy match type grag barrel as well.
Chances are you are not going to be humping 20miles thrue the woods:D

medicboy · « **Reply #96 on:** October 10, 2003, 03:53:30 PM »

Quote

[
I couldn't care less for hunting but in case I ever do, I can have a bolt rifle, sure.
What I am talking about is a paramilitary/survival rifle that would be good for combat, for medium-range 4-600 yards sniping and could also be used for hunting in emergency. The rifle one would grab if it was the only one he could take with him.

Hunting pretty much means .308, not .223. .223 does not fragment beyong 200 yards, so it will not drop a dog, let alone a deer. With people it may be fine as a wounded enemy is still out of action but a deer that did not die in place is a wasted shot.

M1A was successfully used as a battle rifle and as a decent sniper rifle. No AR-15/AR-10 would ever compare in reliability. M14 is the same as M1A except full auto, which I do not care about, and illegal to own.

Barrel weight is what determines the stiffness and thus the magnitude/consistency of harmonics. Also inertial stability. The heavier the barrel, the better. Even 10/22 target shooters use .92 barrel to shoot .22lr at 100 yards.

[
miko [/B]

1: Why do you need a paramilitary rifle? Planning something? You can do everything you need to do with a bolt gun. And besides, just because a rifle is capable of a 600 yard shot I seriously doubt you are. 99% of shooters have no buisness shooting at anything other than paper at that kind of range.

2: Yes the 223 will fragment out past 200 yards, varmit shooters use the 223 out to 400+yards no problems. You have the bullets wrong, you don't want a bullet to fragment on a deer, it will never reach the vitals. But I do agree the 308 would be better.

Crap, have a call, finish this later.

mrblack · « **Reply #97 on:** October 10, 2003, 04:02:16 PM »

One of my targets with the 223 i built
300yards.
I let one get away from me.

wulfie · « **Reply #98 on:** October 10, 2003, 04:09:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by crabofix
ok, so they have abandond the 308 win?

A lot of the U.S. special operations snipers have been using .300 WMag for at least a couple of years. The 'regular' (meaning only that they were part of/attached to non-special operations - or 'regular' units) snipers that I have seen were using .308 'still'.

According to the 10th Mountain and 82nd Airborne snipers I talked to (on occasion), the Canadian snipers were supremely welcome anywhere and at any time not only because they were great at their job but also because they were the only snipers in that entire TF that brought something more powerful than .308 for sniping.

Some of the snipers in the various special operations units (from several different Nations) had some .300 WMag and/or .50 weapons available but they weren't really available for 'attachment' to the 10th Mountain, etc. (their own guys needed them for the operations they were tasked with).

In terms of hitting power at range, I had one sniper explain to me that the .300 WMag is to the .308 like the .308 is to the 5.56. I don't know if that's correct, and I've never used a .300 WMag rifle, but this guy had a good reputation and appeared to know what he was talking about. He was also 'the guy' to ask about wound ballistics as he was a special operations medic who had been to a sniper school.

Mike/wulfie

mrblack · « **Reply #99 on:** October 10, 2003, 04:17:08 PM »

Max effective range for the mose part of the 308 nato is800meters
The Win 300mag is good for 100-1300 meters in the hands of a good shooter.
The 338 lapua Is good up to a mile on human targets.
I believe that the US still sees the 50 Cal as a hard target interdiction weapon.(to take out trucks helos on the pad , and unexploaded bombs)
Although I did see in Irag On the TV US Marines shooting at bad guys with them

And the standard issue for the Amry is the M-24
For the Marines It Is the M-40
Both are 7.62mm 308 nato.

miko2d · « **Reply #100 on:** October 10, 2003, 08:01:47 PM »

medicboy: Why do you need a paramilitary rifle? Planning something? You can do everything you need to do with a bolt gun.

You must have not been reading anything I was posting here on other topics.

I believe there is a real chance of economic downturn that would cause breakdown of monetary system, civil unrest and breakdown of order.
A few thousand dollars investment in supplies/weapons is a cheap insurance that would significantly increase the chance of a family survival.
That is why I need a battle rifle. A few actually, since my friends are mostly lax in that regard. If they show up on my doorstep (in my summer house upstate), they will have to contend with spare SKS.

And besides, just because a rifle is capable of a 600 yard shot I seriously doubt you are.

I know that. I served in combat and I was a decent shot but I am quite realistic. Nevertheless, a rifle capable of 600 yards will be usefull even if I will not attempt to shoot further than 300.

2: Yes the 223 will fragment out past 200 yards, varmit shooters use the 223 out to 400+yards no problems./b]

Only specially-made varmint bullets will fragment below 2600fps. Those bullets are made weak-jacketed and and thus cannot be spun as fast, cannot be shot out of 1/7 and 1/9 military rifles. Theymust spin at 1/12 and so cannot be heavier than 50 grain to keep stability. They fragment upon contact, not inside, so will be ineffective for general purposes or deer hunting.
I am not stocking all kinds of ammo for my Mini-14, just a couple thousands mill-spec M193 rounds.

miko

miko2d · « **Reply #101 on:** October 10, 2003, 08:11:33 PM »

wulfie: one sniper explain to me that the .300 WMag is to the .308 like the .308 is to the 5.56. I don't know if that's correct, and I've never used a .300 WMag rifle

Just compare the case capacities of .308 and .300 WMag!

.308 Win (7.62x51 NATO)
Case capacity 54 grs water.
Throws 150 grn bullet at 2820 fps, energy 2648 ft-lbs.

.300 Winchester Mag
Case capacity 88 grs water.
Throws 180 grn bullet at 2960 fps, energy 3501 ft-lbs.

You ment Winchester Magnum, not Weatherby Magnum, right? Weatherby is even bigger (98 grs water, 4316 ft-lbs).

miko

mrblack · « **Reply #102 on:** October 10, 2003, 08:12:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
[

Only specially-made varmint bullets will fragment below 2600fps. Those bullets are made weak-jacketed and and thus cannot be spun as fast, cannot be shot out of 1/7 and 1/9 military rifles. Theymust spin at 1/12 and so cannot be heavier than 50 grain to keep stability. They fragment upon contact, not inside, so will be ineffective for general purposes or deer hunting.
I am not stocking all kinds of ammo for my Mini-14, just a couple thousands mill-spec M193 rounds.

miko [/B]

Well you know your ballistics!
Like i said before I think you have choosen a fine weapon for you stated purpose.
I might add you may If you dont have alreay to invest iin some reloading stuff Press dies and the like.
Cheaper to shoot and you can taylor your rounds to your rifle.
Good luck.

mrblack · « **Reply #103 on:** October 10, 2003, 08:15:56 PM »

LOL the weatherby 300 mag hurts the shooter more than the intended victim:D

Just kidding It is an awsum round that shoot flat and fast.
My dad is leaving me a 1968 German weatherby 300mad mkv
In mint condition less than 50 rounds thru the gun.

miko2d · « **Reply #104 on:** October 10, 2003, 08:22:29 PM »

mrblack: I might add you may If you dont have alreay to invest iin some reloading stuff Press dies and the like.
Cheaper to shoot and you can taylor your rounds to your rifle.
Good luck.

On one hand. On the other hand I have an incredibly active 2-year old boy growing up who will probably find a way to the stuff, especially if he takes after daddy, which he seems to. I love tinkering and would really like to reload but the jury is still out whether I should risk it.

miko