Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq

[wulfie]

Originally posted by GScholz
I'm sorry I called you a tool, but please stop being so naive. Radioactivity and its negative effects were discovered in 1896, and confirmed by Niels Bohr in 1913 as a nuclear property. The effects of radiation on a human being was well known (in scientific circles) indeed Harry K. Daghlian, a Manhattan Project scientist died of radiation poisining in an accident in 1945. The effect on a population was of course unknown ... but they tested that too.

Just so you don't think poorly of U.S. public schools - I know all about the history of radiation. I was saying I don't think (but I don't know) that they really knew what the true effect and extent of fallout would be. I think the implication (made by someone else, not you) that the U.S. Government set off nuclear bombs on U.S. soil with the intent to 'test fallout effects on U.S. citizens' is ridiculous.

Mike/wulfie

[Nash]

SBM? You got it - it's after the band. It just struck me as making for a great squad name.

As to your explanation, you say "If he had... worded things with any attention to accuracy I think a misunderstanding could have been avoided."

But he simply said: "Now the International Red Cross is calling for us to abide by the Geneva convention in regards to those being detained for 9/11."

That's clearly worded and quite accurate.

Your excuse broken down into two parts:

a) You say that you "thought he was stating that the ICRC had said that the U.S. was in violation of the Geneva Convention." Again, what he said was "abide by". He didn't say it wrong, you read it wrong.

b) You "also took exception to what [you] thought his line of reasoning was: 'ICRC says U.S. in violation of Geneva Convention' = 'U.S. in violation of Geneva Convention'." So here not only were you still confused with your "abide/violation" misread but, just as you point out, you then extrapolated it incorrectly.

Now, all of this would be fine if your new explanation was to show how/why you got his one, perfectly accurate sentence so totally distorted... but you seem to want to use this explanation to further demonstrate why HE is still in error.

I don't think we can erase the check mark from the clueless box just yet... eh?

[Toad]

[Nash]

That would be a whole lot funnier if it was followed by an announcement saying WMD was just found.

[Sabre]

The following words of Colin Powel sum up the Kay report far better than I could hope to.  I didn't see them posted anywhere above, and apologize in advance if it has already been posted.

Friday, October 10, 2003  
Ample cause to oust Saddam
What David Kay found
 
By COLIN POWELL
 
   THE INTERIM findings of David Kay and the Iraq Survey Group make two things abundantly clear: Saddam Hussein's Iraq was in material breach of its United Nations obligations before the Security Council passed Resolution 1441 last November, and Iraq went further into breach after the resolution was passed.

    Kay's interim findings offer detailed evidence of Saddam's efforts to defy the international community to the last. The report describes a host of activities related to weapons of mass destruction that "should have been declared to the U.N." It reaffirms that Iraq's forbidden programs spanned more than two decades, involving thousands of people and billions of dollars.

    What the world knew last November about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs was enough to justify the threat of serious consequences under Resolution 1441. What we now know as a result of David Kay's efforts confirms that Saddam had every intention of continuing his work on banned weapons despite the U.N. inspectors, and that we and our coalition partners were right to eliminate the danger that his regime posed to the world.

    Although Kay and his team have not yet discovered stocks of the weapons themselves, they will press on in the months ahead with their important and painstaking work. All indications are that they will uncover still more evidence of Saddam's dangerous designs.

    Before the war, our intelligence had detected a calculated campaign to prevent any meaningful inspections. We knew that Iraqi officials, members of the ruling Baath Party and scientists had hidden prohibited items in their homes.

    Lo and behold, Kay and his team found strains of organisms concealed in a scientist's home, and they report that one of the strains could be used to produce biological agents. Kay and his team also discovered documents and equipment in scientists' homes that would have been useful for resuming uranium enrichment efforts.

    Kay and his team have "discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery ... has come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that the Iraq Survey Group has discovered that should have been declared to the U.N."

    The Kay Report also addresses the issue of suspected mobile biological agent laboratories: "Investigation into the origin of and intended use for the two trailers found in northern Iraq in April has yielded a number of explanations, including hydrogen, missile propellant and BW (biological warfare) production, but technical limitations would prevent any of these processes from being ideally suited to these trailers. That said, nothing ... rules out their potential use in BW production." Here Kay's findings are inconclusive. He is continuing to work this issue.

    Kay and his team have, however, found this: "A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to U.N. monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW (chemical-biological weapons) research." They also discovered: "a prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N."

    The Kay Report confirms that our intelligence was correct to suspect the al-Kindi Co. of being involved in prohibited activity. Missile designers at al-Kindi told Kay and his team that Iraq had resumed work on converting SA-2 surface-to-air missiles into ballistic missiles with a range of about 250 kilometers, and that this work continued even while UNMOVIC inspectors were in Iraq. The U.N.-mandated limit for Iraq was a range of 150 kilometers.

    The Kay Report also confirmed our prewar intelligence that indicated Iraq was developing missiles with ranges up to 1,000 kilometers. Similarly, Kay substantiated our reports that Iraq had tested an unmanned aerial vehicle to 500 kilometers, also in violation of U.N. resolutions.

    What's more, he and his team found that elaborate efforts to shield illicit programs from inspection persisted even after the collapse of Saddam's regime. Key evidence was deliberately eliminated or dispersed during the postwar period. In a wide range of offices, laboratories and companies suspected of developing weapons of mass destruction, computer hard drives were destroyed, files were burned and equipment was carefully cleansed of all traces of use - and done so in a pattern that was clearly deliberate and selective, rather than random.

    One year ago, when President Bush brought his concerns about Iraq to the United Nations, he made it plain that his principal concern in a post-Sept. 11 world was not just that a rogue regime such as Saddam Hussein's had WMD programs, but that such horrific weapons could find their way out of Iraq into the arms of terrorists who would have even fewer compunctions about using them against innocent people across the globe.

    In the interim report, Kay and his team record the chilling fact that they "found people, technical information and illicit procurement networks that if allowed to flow to other countries and regions could accelerate global proliferation."

    Having put an end to that harrowing possibility alone justifies our coalition's action against Saddam's regime. But that is not the only achievement of our brave men and women in uniform and their coalition partners.

    Three weeks ago, I paid my respects at a mass grave in the northern city of Halabja, where on a Friday morning in March 1988, Saddam's forces murdered 5,000 men, women and children with chemical weapons. Saddam Hussein can cause no more Halabjas. His "Republic of Fear" no longer holds sway over the people of Iraq. For the first time in three decades, the Iraqi people have reason to hope for the future.

    President Bush was right: This was an evil regime, lethal to its own people, in deepening material breach of its Security Council obligations and a threat to international peace and security. Saddam would have stopped at nothing until something stopped him. It's a good thing that we did.

   

    COLIN POWELL is secretary of state.

    THE WASHINGTON POST

    D. GRETHEN / LOS ANGELES TIMES SYNDICATE

[straffo]

FYI Marie Sklodowska Curie died because of radiation as soon as 1934.

[Rude]

Yet.. when it comes to an international democratic vote and everyone votes against us... we go and invade a 3rd world country that was never an immediate threat to us.

The international community does not govern the United States, much to your disapointment.

[Shuckins]

Here's some food for thought.  According to an article by Charles Krauthammer in Sunday's paper, U.S. and coalition forces have discovered 130 of Saddam's ammunition dumps.  Two of them are the approximate size of Manhattan island.  The number of weapons that are having to be sorted through, inspected, and catalogued is undoubtedly immense.  So immense, in fact, that our forces have completed searching and cataloguing only 10 of these dumps so far.  Given that a considerable amount of evidence has been unearthed indicating that Saddam possessed the infrastructure to produce weapons of mass destruction.  It is therefore possible that these weapons may be "hidden" in plain sight.


It is also possible that, given the amount of time Saddam had to prepare before the U.S. invasion, any completed weapons may have been sent across the border to Syria or other countries sympathetic to Iraq.

Lastly, it wouldn't be as hard to hide such weapons in a country the size of Iraq as some seem to think.  Biological weapons that Saddam's minions wished to hide would not be placed, I don't believe, in clearly marked containers.  The same could be said for the materials used in the manufacture of nuclear weapons.  After all, the people in charge of these programs were not stupid.

Regards, Shuckins

[DmdNexus]

I could site my sources, however, I'm a rabble rouser, and I'm too lazy, and I don't care if any one thinks I'm lying or not.

Did the US government nuke US citizens no. I never said that.

However, it did conduct nuclear experiments knowing that US citizens would be affected by radiation. That many US citizens would die from leukemia, and other cancers caused by radiation poisoning.

There are many books out on this subject - with documented evidence (like US Governement documents from the Phds doing the experiments) as a result of FOIA (freedom of information act).

Is our government inherently 'evil', no. Inherently incompetent - yes. Well some government officials are.

However, did our governement cover up and hide the wrongs it does - yes. Does it still do this - yes.

The CIA experiemented with LSD with the promise of it being the next truth serum.

Our government continues to experiment with biological/chemical warfare, regardless of international treaties and bans. Why? In order to develop counter measures. And because this activity is illegal, it's classified, and our government will deny any such programs exist. Perhaps the WMD inspectors should come to America - we have plenty of WMD - with documentation.

Remember Dr. Hatfield? The guy accused of sending the Anthrax letters... what was his job? Why did the facility he worked at have Antrax - what were they doing? Experiementing with biological weapons.

What has our governement done to it's people:
Experiemented on black men by injecting them with syphilis.
ok here's a link for those who don't have a clue: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmtuskegee1.html
They did this for 40 years. And this was discovered 30 years ago.

CIA eperiments with LSD
http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/lsd/

Iran Contra - Arms for Hostages - Not more than 20 years ago!
BTW - George Bush Senior was the Vice President at the time.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh
http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/aae/side/irancont.html
The US Government under the auspices of Ronald Reagan - the Repubilcan - sold arms to IRAN.

US Governement Sells Mustard gas to Iraq and encourages Iraq's use of Mustard gas on IRAN

http://monkeyfist.com/pipermail/bonobos/Week-of-Mon-20020930/000926.html

Why is war with Iraq wrong? Because it wasn't self defense and UN resolution 1441 did not authorize it.
It's and an example of vigilantism, and it create unstability in the world because it's an act of lawlessness. If we can invade Iraq, then china can invade Taiwan. And Japan can invade North Korea.

If we set a precidence of unjustified agression, other nations - like Israel vs Palestine and Syria will follow suite.
And then it's a free for all... might makes right.

We no longer become a world of laws and justice, and disputes settled by reason and arguement.

We become a world of violence, death, destruction, and hate.

Hate is the chant of the conservatives. they hate drug users, they hate gays, they hate muslims, they hate everyone who is not like them, just like them, act like them, speak like them, even 3rd world countries that have different cultures, they hate blacks, latins, and all other minorities, the poor, the non-christians.

There is no tolerance of differing opinions in the conservative camps - this is exemplified by Rush's rants, O'Reily, Coutler, Hannity, Pat Robertson, Buchannan, Cheny, and Ashcroft.

Bush and the constitution.... There's a bill of rights, which states every American has the right to due process. The right to cross examine their accussers, the right to a speedy trial.

There are Americans (nationalized and native) in jail, with out access to a lawyer, with out bail, with out formal charges, with out the right to examine and refute the evidence against them.

Thank god it's none of you... yet.

The right extends to non-citizens as well, that is a interpretation set by the US Supreme court.

Cases are working their way through the court system now.

Bush/Ashcroft and his prosecutors have been loosing in the courts. Unfortunately it takes time for the courts to do their thng.

When Bush was sworn in to office he made a pledge to protect the constitution of the US.

In my opinion, he's done more to undermind the constitution and has done more to damage US interests in the world and in short he is a traitor to this country and the constitution.

It's odd that only his buddies are getting the Iraw Reconstruction WarBucks - that's a powder keg about to exploid in his face big time!

US Hipcrisy ... At one time or another, in the US has been guilty of every crime Saddam has been accused of. The persecution of the Kurds - how about the persecution of the Blacks and the American Indians - more like Genicide of the American Indians. Use of chemical and biological warfare weapons against US citizens with out their knowledge, violation of human rights, violation of international law, acts of unlawful aggression against neighbor nations.

We are no different today than we were 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, we would like to think that all those events are in the past... they are not. There is watermelon going on today we'll find out in 5 years, and it will be even more shocking.

Another conspiracy therorist? - no. Get off the pompous self rightgeous pedistool and be a student of history.

The US is full of it.

And the only way the US will change is by abiding by international law, and joining the world in a democratic process of enforcement of those laws- and taking responsibility when even the Self Righteous US does wrong.

The US is the number exporter of DEATH - Cigarrettes and Military Weapons.