Author Topic: Terrorism Quiz.  (Read 1505 times)

Offline miko2d

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Terrorism Quiz.
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2003, 12:00:33 PM »
OK, let's see and grade according to my 0-2 point system - which system of course expresses my purely personal views on the subject.


 First the questions related to the utility of such discussion:

Leslie: You don't think about things like this, you just do it.

 Wrong. We are humans, not animals. We do not live in a natural world for which we have evolved instincts. We face dangers and tasks for which we have no intuitive reaction built in by nature.
 That is why humans engage in and benefit from training - even if it's only a mental exercise. We think when we have time - like now is the perfect time, actually - so that we act correctly without much thinking when the situation arises.

AKIron: Lotta variables here. Pretty tough to know what you'd do without being there.

 Right. But what should you be looking for to make the decision when being there? What should you pay attention to? Who will teach you?


Now to answers/grades:

Leslie: I'd try to get away from it as fast as I could.
0 points

With wife and kid(s) there, only option would be to stay to protect them
1 point

vorticon: i would move to a safer part of the cafe...then just wait for emergency response teams...
1 point

crabofix: Start filming and sell it to CNN.
 That's a valid choice. You did not specify what you would do about the survival of the people you care about, so no basis for the grade.

AKIron: I'd probably get the wife and kid(s) under a table to avoid falling debris. I'd take a minute or two to assess the situation and look for a way out.
1 point

Sikboy: I would cower in the corner and wait...
1 point

Gunthr: We are going to quickly walk out of the building via the least congested exit, and continue walking away until we are out at least several blocks away.
0 points

Habu: Remove your family from the danger of further injury by locateing them in a safe area.
 ...or out a back door. Doing the obvious thing like walking out the front may be the worst thing to do if a car bomb is out there...

2 points

 Better then I expected. Now to the analysis.

 The optimal technique for terrorists going for maximum human casualties in the simplest way possible is to detonate a small backpack charge that would cause a panic and flush a large crowd of people into the open, preferably restricted area. Then a massive charge, possibly a car bomb is detonated.
 Car or a large bomb is hard to bring into a crowded public building and exploded outside without creating a target it will kill very few people.

 So if there is an explosion inside or close to your restaurant that you happened to survive, you should immediately grab your family and run out back through the kitchen in the back of the premices - away from the main street where the crowd would pour out to from multiple spots. That is no matter if the way out front is open and the way inside is crowded or obstructed. Once out in the open on the back side of the building, you should move further - to the other side of the block from the main entrance, stop there to check for injuries and try proceed away from there.
 If the way back is blocked or temporatily crowded, you should cover as far back as possible in the room, preferably behind a structural support.

 You definitley do not want to come out into the killing ground to be blasted by the main explosion and you do not even want to take chances that the blast outside will destroy the rest of the place you are in, so you do not come out front and stay in only if the way back is blocked.

 A correction to the Habu's great answer.

 The conventional Western terrorists go out of their way not to hurt or injure civilians. That is why they warn about the bombs, detonate charges where/when few are likely to be hurt. They want publicity but do not want to appear as mass murderers and lose public sympathy.
 They will always try to target policemen or other law-enforcement rather than civilians. That is why the second bomb is set to 5 minutes - time enough for the police/resque to arrive and for the civilians to clear the area.

 The real terrorists will go for the maxumum death toll possible. The main charge will be detonated at the moment when the maximum crowd pours out to the street - most likely not set on timer but by remote control or manually by a suicidal bomber.

 You cannot expect to have minutes to check for injuries or clear the area through the front.

 Any thoughts?


 Oh, yeah - that's exactly the way 200 people in Bali died and hundreds got injured. Small explosion to flush them out, massive explosion to kill them.

 miko

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2003, 12:24:43 PM »
Miko, you describe a military tactic. I don't think we've seen a terrorist attack in Israel or anywhere else that used a small blast to funnel people into a kill zone and then employ a larger deadlier blast. At least as far as I know.

My concern was two fold. 1. A secondary explosion 2. the possibility that the restaurant blast was dispersing a bio/chem agent.

You must give me points for considering this, and for avoiding the exit used by the mob, and thus avoiding the killzone in your scenario. :D

hadn't heard about how the Bali blast happened...  Interesting.
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2003, 01:43:50 PM »
Gunthr: Miko, you describe a military tactic. I don't think we've seen a terrorist attack in Israel or anywhere else that used a small blast to funnel people into a kill zone and then employ a larger deadlier blast.

 Unfortunately it's not up to us what kind of attack we may experience.
 And real explosive blasts that would cause real damage and disperse bio/chem agents at the same time are even less common than double blasts. We saw double tap in WTC, we saw double tap in Bali, we see double taps in european terrorist acts. Not a single act of explosive plus contaminating agent. Small bursting charge - maybe, what did they use in Tokyo?

 If it's ony one bomb, you are certainly no worse off staying in the same place, unless it's on fire. Whenever the next blast attack or even chemical/bio assault is going to occur, it will not be in the same room as the first explosion, that's for sure.

 The mob may be a big issue in the theater. In a restaurant the whole wall will become one big exit once the wndows are blown off and peple can leave quickly, Also the light will come from that side, day or night, while the inside may be dark and even smoking. So the street may look like the most attractive direction to run.

 Following the mob is a very risky choice in any scenario - from explosion to investing, that's true.
 
 miko
« Last Edit: October 16, 2003, 02:22:15 PM by miko2d »

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2003, 02:19:52 PM »
Point well taken.

I agree its good to play "what if" ahead of time as its hard to think straight with blood coming out of your ears, deaf, maybe disoriented and injured.

I'll consider the double tap if I'm ever in that situation...  as well as other factors ...
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Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2003, 02:36:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
maybe, what did they use in Tokyo?



In Tokyo they did not use any explosives in the delivery.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline DmdNexus

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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2003, 03:23:47 PM »
>>Here is a realistic scenario for you to ponder.

No - Here is a hyperothetical scenario for you to ponder:

Hypothetically, then I would say I would drop my trousers and start lighting my farts.

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2003, 11:12:03 AM »
bugger you.

 look for suckin chest wounds and arterial bleeding. second spine/neck injurys on down the list. if no wounds or help needed check self and haul ass. call cops in morning.

ohh and  smack guy who tells me i cant tend wounded.

Offline slimm50

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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2003, 11:21:47 AM »
Miko, I musta missed something......No, I'm sure I missed something. What, exactly,  prompted you to begin this thread? Just curious.

Slim03

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2003, 11:35:07 AM »
Gunthr is wrong, this actually happens regularily in Isreal.  This is not a 'hypothetical' as in it might happen one day, it is a known and well used tactic.

In fact, the Bali bombing used this technique.  Someone set off a small bomb, then a minute or so later set off a massive car bomb to kill as many people as possible who had clustered around the original scene to help the victims of the first bombing.
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2003, 12:03:13 PM »
Yes, Chairboy, that is what happened in Bali, as Miko pointed out above.

What terrorist attacks in Israel used this tactic? I'm not disagreeing with you, just hadn't seen it reported. I'd like you to refer me to the report.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2003, 12:19:44 PM »
Search for 'timer'
http://www.voicefromzion.org/artman/publish/article_47.shtml

Search for 'kill rescuers'
http://www.jewish-holiday.com/mdaorg.html

Search for 'kill rescuers'
http://www.jayreding.com/archives/week_2001_12_02.php

These are just a few examples from 30 seconds of searching w/ google.
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2003, 01:07:17 PM »
Thanks Chairboy ...

First link : No reference to the kind of scenario described by Miko, but I did see this:
Quote
To make matters even worse Internal Security Minister Uzi Landau said the Palestinian Authority is directly responsible for rat poison found in the bomb that blew up December 1 in downtown Jerusalem.

Police found traces of what was apparently rat poison at the scene of the blast.
Check it out, Miko - an explosion carrying a bio agent :D

Second link: Very interesting piece on emergency responses. They do refer to secondary and tertiary explosions meant to harm rescuers as well as the main group. Not to put too fine a point on it, there is a distinction between these and what we were discussing, ie, a blast to funnel victims into a killzone where another bomb does the real damage.

Third link: Another case like the above one.

I think you could argue for immediately leaving the area in the above cases to be spared the effects of secondary explosions meant to harm rescuers.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline DmdNexus

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« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2003, 03:08:52 PM »
>>Police found traces of what was apparently rat poison at the scene of the blast.

Any chance that the rat poison was there before the bomb and the bomb blast merely spread the poison around?

Any place there is food & garbage, usually will attract dinners and rats.

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2003, 03:21:44 PM »
Read the link.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2003, 03:23:09 PM »
lord dolf vader: bugger you.
 look for suckin chest wounds...
ohh and  smack guy who tells me i cant tend wounded.


 The topic of this tactical simulation was "what is an optimal route of egress". That is why it was formulated this way. It was not a test for morality. We were not concerned with an issue whether one ought to leave the scene or send his wife/child away. Only which way to move if one did decide to move.

 It was certainly not an invitation for anyone to show off his nobility. Words are cheap here. One can claim all kind of crap about one's moral superiority under a dorky pseudonim.


slimm50: Miko,... What, exactly, prompted you to begin this thread? Just curious.

:)
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
  (Luke 12:47–48).

 miko