Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zippatuh on August 14, 2001, 10:52:00 AM
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I logged on last night with a simple question in mind, what can the P38 do besides carry a lot of ordinance? My first initial reaction was, it SUCKS ARSE! I just could not find the grove in this aircraft. I have flown it a hand full of times previously but again just for the munitions load.
Was I carrying to much fuel or should I have stayed horizontal and not gone vertical, I have no clue? I was doing several different tests so to speak and was finding out that it was not carrying much strength in a co-altitude fight. Hell, it didn’t even carry its weight with an N1K that was 2k below me who was able to climb without any problems right to my 6. Now granted I didn’t try to avoid the N1K, I wanted to see how the 38 reacted compared to other aircraft I’m used to. N1K probably thought that as I was level until the marker said 600 and closing rapidly.
I was never really in a good situation to make a good judgement. Either it was 3v1 their advantage of 3v1 mine. In either situation I was getting my bellybutton handed to me.
After more than a few sorties I decided to jump back in big blue where I promptly put her in the drink 3 times on CV take off. I ended up making some of the same bad decisions in my hog that I did in the devil after I finally got it off the deck.
So in short does the P38 suck, was I just having a bad night, or do I just suck in general. Wait, don’t answer the last one ;).
Anyway, anyone who has some P38 links or information on flying the thing properly can you post them please.
Thnx
Zippatuh
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The 38 does not suck, it's just not the best at anything. It's a decent all-around plane, but the problem is that in this plane set, there are many that are even better all-around fighters than the 38 is.
Bottom line is, you have to engage with an advantage... enough of an advantage. The difficulty is that it's nasty compression means if you have too much advantage you can't engage effectively. It's quite a challenge. It does have enough useful attributes to be a deadly weapon, but it takes a lot of knowledge and skill to employ effectively.
So I don't think it sucks... I like it. It's an awesome bird, truley unique. It's challenging to fly and fight in, but it can get the job done, and when it does it's a very rewarding experience.
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P-38 sucks if....
you try to fly it like a...
spit
n1k2
f4u
p51
yak
la5
la7
205
etc
if you are flying a less capable aircraft to the strengths of other types of aircraft you are going down in flames over and over
this is true for any aircraft but the less capable aircraft it is ten times moreso
p-38 rocks if and only if...
you fly it like a...
P-38
however P-38 does average if you fly it like a...
P-47
Fw190a
109g6
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I have fun in it, though what I'd really like to see is someone rerelease suncom's old dual throttle set as USB. I had a POS analog version hooked up for a while, even with the 1/2 throttle spikes it was a blast flying the 38 with seperate throttle controls.
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I dubbed it
"The Fork - Tailed COFFIN"
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I would agree with you normally Lephturn but the P-38 does suck. I can't say it any other way. Like the 190's one ping dead engine, the P-38 has the one ping elevator removal. The compression settings on the 38 are either totally porked or, if it is right, then the settings on many other AH aircraft are off.
In reality, not only is the AH '38' not the best at anything, it isn't really good at much at all if there are any enemy planes around.
It's the one plane in the planeset (besides the N1K2) that I truly feel is way off and it's use (unlike the N1K2) suffers for it.
Westy
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Zip... I rem my squadies on your 38 down low last night. It seemed like you where flying it pretty well considering your situation.
xBAT
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Hi Zip,
We had the very same discussion about a month ago in the aircraft forum. I asked the same questions as you and was just as frustrated as you. I've seen many guys really kick bellybutton flying the P-38 and anytime I jumped into it, I just couldn't seem to pull the same kind of magic out of it. Like you, I'd used it largely to haul 2 1,000 pounders and rockets to JABO a field. Air to air against anything was always fairly dismal. I see boogey, I try to turn with boogey, boogey out turns me, parts of me catch fire, and into the chute I go.
Then I took some advice from the guys in the aircraft discussion. I tried flying it as I would a fighter, without ordinance, and really light, like 25% gas and 1 drop tank. What wowed me about this airplane up high (25K+) was the difference from where the white airseep needle is, vs the red one. She's fast. But, she also compresses really easy. AT least that was what I've seen consistently. Speed brakes/dive brakes, whatever they are, seem to do nothing. But, with this in mind, if you do it right, you can pick your fights. The mix of cannon and machine guns makes for a pretty deadly burst if you can time it right on an unsuspecting con.
However, probably the most annoying flaw this P-38 has is the 1 hit, both engines dead syndrome. Especially near buffs or acks. I've been 2k away from acks and buffs, heard the "ping" and suddenly both engines are windmilling. No such magic bullets have been seen like that since the JFK assassination theory :)
I've been trying really hard to love the p-38 too. Its got a great climb. Try it fairly lowly loaded on gas and up high for a bit.
Like you, I'll be interested to see what the P-38 gurus say here.
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P38 is far from sucking. Maybe I'm too used to the P47-D30 and P38 looks great to me. It turns very good, has a good gun package (don't expect the 2 ping wing off kabbom kill though). It's speed is descent too (lit bit more P47), and climb is comfortable.
I have no problem when I fly this bird. Off course it's very fragile, hey can't have everything :)
on a side note, I noticed experienced pilots have no problem in any type of plane, people too much used to turnfighters always complain. I believe that those turn fighters give bad habits to their pilots, who end up betting everything on turn and gradually forget about using their head to defeat the other guy. :(
Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/sig-frenchy1.jpg)
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One all inclusive word for the 38... SA. Well two words really :)
Pester Fester... :) He'll send ya some film give ya some tips just to make you leave him alone...lol.
xBAT
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The only plane I have a trouble with is the N1k (of course) and the La7. I can handle the la7, it just takes a lot of work and luck (damn thing goes vertical better than me porked 38! :) ). Yaks gimme a headache, they are small and hard to hit ;)
Fatty: I have that throttle. Here's how to fix that: Open the joystick and either use a soft brush and vacuum at low power and clean dust & grime (and yank the levers vigorously for 10 secs after that, repeat to make sure its all clean). Then go to best buy and get yourself the cheapest joystick possible (Cyborg 3D is wonderfully non-spiking and is $20!). Then get a USB joystick (I use MS FF2 and CH PRO pedals USB) and use it as your j-stick. As long as the USB stick uses ID #1, the stick attached to the TCS will not bother you. You do have to remap function in AH though :)
The spikes will go away.
"the P-38 has the one ping elevator removal"
Eh? you confusing the tail booms with the elevator AGAIN westy?
"The compression settings on the 38 are either totally porked"
Its a bit off imo. But its sufferable for the time being. I think it should compress at higher speeds when below 20k.. about 480mph or so. Up high it should compress sooner. Also, ive had times at sea level when the plane compresses at 390 mph... extremely annoying.
Not to mention dive flaps that dont work (they do light a little bulb in the cockpit though) and the fowler flaps are off (I think HTC said ALL flaps in the game are not correct..drag or something).
One thing I would like to ask the experten (Widewing? :) ) is if the 38 really went from 490 mph to 360 mph in level flight in only 3 seconds. Many times I power dive and do a 5 degree climb or level trying to extend a bit and my speed drops to 360-400 (depending on alt..higher if at higher alt) extremely fast. Mach factor off too? Dunno, just find it odd this plane cant extend or zoom (not straight up but 30-45 degree up) for such a pathetic amount of time before it completely bleeds off its E (and it was renowned for its zoom ability). But again, this is speculation, I rest me case with the experten.
On a final thought, Lizzie and I went to the TA and did a test on the damage model of the plane... it takes 2-4 .50 cal rounds to completely ripp off a wingtip, 4-6 .50 cal to rip off the wing root, 1-2 .50 cal to smack the tail boom *both of them when hitting ONE of them* off , 2-3 .50 cal to rip out the tail stabilizer... 8-10 to make plane explode when hitting the nose (that was shocking!). And we found that if you hit the little stub that sticks out of the tail stabilizer, the plane will also blow up (what, we hit the self destruct mechanism?). We tried to fire some rounds between the tail booms to see if they went through. They didnt (albeit we still have to find a verra steep hill and park a 38 at its base.. the bullets may have been hitting the tail boom or rudders at an angle..but when we did fire, the pings we saw usually tore out the tail booms). Engine died in 2 pings.
Hitech, is the FM of some of the existing planes being revisited in the next version? A yes/no will suffice.
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The three fighters I have been concentrating on are the F4UD, P-51B and the P38. I've tried a few other airframes as well (you'll never get min a N1K or LA7 though) and the P38 seems to take a dispraportionate of damage to its engines. I die lots and have a good feel for the different ways to lose your aircraft and rarely do I lose an engine in other aircraft. In the P-38, three times out of four I will lose at least one engine from only one or very few hits. This is compounded by the fact that the P-38 has a very weak tailplane in the game. Also, my gunnery is poor in all aircraft but I'm much worse in the P-38 than all others and am not sure why because there is no convergence. Anyone else see a difference in gunning?
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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I don't know enough to argue about the modelling... so I'll leave that to the more knowledgeable folks.
I took the 38 for a spin in tour 18. Ok, I haven't had much time to fly this summer between work and other things, so I don't have a lot of time in it. But still... I grabbed the 38 and went 11-4 K/d, and one of those deaths was a suicide run against a B-26. Personally, I just found it was a nice all-around plane and I did pretty well in it. Take that for whatever it's worth. :)
I will say that I think Frenchy is on to something there. We Jug pilots tend to do pretty well in it as Fester eluded too, since if you fly it like a Jug that can't dive, you'll do OK. :)
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The P38 is the American 109G6. Its very nice all around but not great in any one thing. It takes skill and patience to fly and win in over better performing opponents, basically every other plane in the arena one way or another cept the C202 :).
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The p38 sucks in all sims for this reason.
No dual engine throttle controls, not at least at your fingertips.
Goes like this. Chop 1 engine and then full power on engine 2. Torque effects go crazy and nice tight turns. The p38 is easy to shoot down, its such a big target. I have never lost a fight to a p38 in a 205.
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Fight Fester.
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any of you guys remember the L model in WB way back when :D (and i'm talking pre 2.00, more like 1.07-1.11 or so, it's been a while)
it was tough, had incredible roll at all speeds, good fire power, average visibility, and it did not compress like it does here
[edit]
i remember one fight i had against eman and worr...eman in his 51( go figure :) ), and worr in his 38. at about 20k or so
eman wasn't a problem, but no matter what i did worr was always on my six. it was a fun fight that lasted about 15 minutes or so...of course i died in the end, but it was worth it :)
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: pugg666 ]
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Flying it like the P47 will be a little hard since I’m also not experienced with them either. I’m an F4U guy, and that was listed as one of the aircraft NOT to fly like.
With the F4U I need to know two things: Zoom, which the AH model has been shown by F4UDOA to be lacking, and roll baby roll baby roll, which is not.
With the P38 I have the compression gauged, that needle hits 450, well the elevator trim had better be accessible somewhere close. I’ve been able to pull out of all the compressions with trimming the elevator up. Turning, the damn stall buzzer was going crazy and I didn’t think my turns were very tight. I also do a lot of yo-yo’s instead of flat turns. It didn’t roll as well as my Corsair but I found using the elevator trim made for some nice scissors. A few people have said that there isn’t any one thing that it performs well at executing. Does this mean have the E and alt advantage or don’t take the fight?
Fester has posted to fly the P38 like the P38. Can you elaborate a little on this please? Flying against them I’ve seen some pretty fantastic aileron rolls that spoiled my shots as well as a few well-executed scissors. I’ve even been taken by a double Immelman that wow’d the hell out of me.
Does it all boil down to have the altitude advantage, keep your nose up, and don’t press the attack?
Thanks for the responses so far. Thanks to batdog for giving some of my pride back :).
Zippatuh
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People keep saying the dive flaps don't work, but I find them to be excellent for riding a dive just inside the compression edge (where there is some compression but you can still pullout stick only not hitting elev key as fast as you can).
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Zip you see my note about P38L, G10, and P47D tests I did yesterday?
Going by memory here, notes are at home:
All tests were done at 25K. and fuel burned to 75% in tanks.
Level flight, wep on until exhausted, right after wep exhausted, top speed was noted (except G10 which can keep going, and going..)
P38L- 410 TAS
109G10-420 TAS
P47D-400 TAS
Dove each from 25k thru to sea level, trying to maintain control via elevator/aileron trim controls:
P38L: loss of control appeared to be about 510 MPH.
G10: Loss of control appeared to be about 575 MPH.
P47D: Loss of control appeared to be about 585 MPH.
Last test was maximum zoom from sea level (pulling out of borderline loss of control diver scenario above) vertically straight up, slow transition as to not lose energy in the turn:
P38L: Stalled at 8,000 feet.
G10: Stalled at 8700 feet.
P47D: Stalled at 10,000 feet.
None of these tests were closed or base line, just a 'what can this do' type tests.
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"Eh? you confusing the tail booms with the elevator AGAIN westy?"
EEk!! Guilty. What I meant was I tend to lose that long thin buffet table located inbetween the two rudders on the first shot against me.
Westy
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I've read that the P-38 had "excellent low speed handling", which ours seems to not have. Is it me, my info, the Fowler flaps model, or what?
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actualy tested the P 38 on dual trotle , sory but crap it not turn beter at all
ju 88 handle nicely on dual trotle managment
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DOH! Its not dual throttle control. For what i said you need single throttle control. Like 2 throttles for 2 seperate engines.
Hard to do in a sim. Nearly impossible.
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"Does it all boil down to have the altitude advantage, keep your nose up, and don’t press the attack"
Thats about it. If you follow a con into a dive (unless its a 1-1 OR if the con is a yak/n1k/la7/high E p51) you basically serve yourself as bait for others. For some reason, people see a cloud of 190's, 109's, 205's, n1ks and la7s...and 1 P38... and guess who gets bounced by 2+ cons? ;)
"P38L: loss of control appeared to be about 510 MPH"
Gee wizz.. I WISH. The plane will actually break apart at that speed. Fastest ive been is about 490 nearing 500..compressed the whole way and staying in a 20 degree dive (or it will be impossible to pull out of b4 the plane sheds the wings). Compression usually hits around 410-460 depending on alt.
"P38L: Stalled at 8,000 feet" sounds about right.. if you pulled up and trimmed the thing with WEP on till it stalled.
Popeye: slow 38 without using flaps..well, lets say it wont be in 1 piece for very long.
Minus: You were turning on the side of the dead engine right? it does give you about 20% better turn (i'd say). Specially if you have flaps deployed.
Pdog: play with your keymap, it can be done. Or better yet, get the suncom dual throttle for only $60 :D :D :D
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I've found that you need to stand on the dive brakes as you start your dive. This seems to increase the speed at which it starts to compress. It may just be my imagination but give it a try and see.
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I like the P38, was 11-1 in it after 2 sorties, until last night that is.
The one death I had before last night occured when I dove in during a field capture, strafed (vulched..hehehe) a YAK, and when he blew up, there went both engines.........no smoke trail, no vapor trail like fuel hit.......just engines dead. Glided out to sea, ditched next to a DE.
Last night, got into it with 2 Ponies, tried to bleed one of them out of E when his buddy ran off.......he opened up at 790 on my FE, there went both booms, left engine, and my patience.....
P38 zoom climb doesn't seem all that impressive either. And like I told HiTech in his office, the darn thing STILL torques to the left on takeoff...................... .
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I'll mess with it Tac. Dug it out and put it on my spare machine today, I'll see if I can get it working solid. Even in its crummy condition there was a very noticable turning ability increase.
I'd still love to see a USB digital version though.
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]
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"I'd still love to see a USB digital version though"
amen to that. Also, a stand-alone version.. having to have another stick plugged into it to work is quite annoying.
But I dont see much future for suncom. Heck, they cant even keep their website up 3 days out of the week :(
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I've got dual throttles, and the only time I cut one is when doing a hammerhead, but you got to do it right or you will lose control.
Any of you ever cut throttle and dump flaps? Or do you just fly full bore all the time. Hell, sometimes I have 4 notches of flaps in. If you play your cards right, you can still extend away from most planes, but you have to maintain speed and alt over your opponent or they'll run you down and kill ya. It takes a lot of patience to fly it in the MA these days, and a wing man helps big time. You just can't jump into a furball with it. Pick your fights carefully.
ts
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Wonder if 2 single throttles on a USB would work?
xBAT
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Originally posted by Tac:
"Does it all boil down to have the altitude advantage, keep your nose up, and don’t press the attack"
Thats about it. If you follow a con into a dive (unless its a 1-1 OR if the con is a yak/n1k/la7/high E p51) you basically serve yourself as bait for others. For some reason, people see a cloud of 190's, 109's, 205's, n1ks and la7s...and 1 P38... and guess who gets bounced by 2+ cons? ;)
"P38L: loss of control appeared to be about 510 MPH"
Gee wizz.. I WISH. The plane will actually break apart at that speed. Fastest ive been is about 490 nearing 500..compressed the whole way and staying in a 20 degree dive (or it will be impossible to pull out of b4 the plane sheds the wings). Compression usually hits around 410-460 depending on alt.
"P38L: Stalled at 8,000 feet" sounds about right.. if you pulled up and trimmed the thing with WEP on till it stalled.
Popeye: slow 38 without using flaps..well, lets say it wont be in 1 piece for very long.
Minus: You were turning on the side of the dead engine right? it does give you about 20% better turn (i'd say). Specially if you have flaps deployed.
Pdog: play with your keymap, it can be done. Or better yet, get the suncom dual throttle for only $60 :D :D :D
Tac, you need to map your trim to the JS or throttle, I even surpassed 510 in a dive, but it took me 10,000 feet to recover.
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Yes Batdog, two usb throttles will work, as well as two anolog ones. Just map them appropriately.
Or you can build one of these like I did out of a CH Pro Throttle( will do the same with the USB version when I break down and buy it)
(http://www.mtaonline.net/~tshred3/Throttle.jpg)
ts