Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: weazel on May 12, 2000, 10:34:00 PM
-
I`M DONE!
This game used be a really fun-then something happened that *really* screwed it up. I`ve squeaked about it many times and I`m not going to anymore.
As of tonight Ripsnort has been promoted to C.O. of I./JG 2 "Richthofen" as I will not be flying in the main arena anymore. I will finish my tour as as an instructor,whether I will stay after that is questionable.
<S> to all my friends and foes alike,your a great bunch for the most part.
-
Whassup?
-
Sorry, weazel, I did a search of the BB, but haven't a clue to what you're talking about?
-
Weaz...Just take a brake...Its too well made and can be over stimulating...
>
-
Big Blue Deathwagon...?
-
It is unfortunate Weazel but some others, me included may not be far behind.
Perhaps not for the same reasons but there are enough to go around lately.
Too bad but other games are coming someday.
------------------
When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
-
take a break, get outside, get a 35 dollar discovery flight at your local airport and ask for a few spins (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) or somthing.
if you can fly these aircraft well theres nothing you should have problems with in a real airplane as far as stick and rudder goes. so when the instructor is wowed by your perfect landing and flying and asks if you ever flew before just grin to yourself and know that Aces High is somthing more than just a silly game like quake, it's quake with some toejam hot flight models so that the chaos is educational. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
As a former proponent and user of the 1c almost exclusively, I'm starting to wonder if something about it's guns aren't overmodelled. (Actually I think it's the hispanos.) I don't want to start a 100 post thread about whether or not the guns are overdone, but I will ask if Pyro can check and see if there is a bug with the power of the Hispanos? While I don't believe the plane itself is better than any others, something is strange with the guns IMO.
I rarely fly the 1c for air to air anymore, except for bomber intercepts and JABO. Tonight I flew one sortie in it to hunt down bishop bombers over V51. I knocked off a b26's tail with only 2 pings on my FE. Any other plane that I've used would need anywhere from 10 - 25 hits to do that. The hispanos also seem to have an amazing punch against tanks. It is probably true that the hispano 20mm was (when working) likely the best gun used during WWII. It had a higher muzzle velocity and greater bullet mass compared to the MG151, which equals greater punch. My question is whether or not a hispano round could penetrate the armor of a panzer IV? Honestly, I'm sure that it could probably penetrate the top armor, but there's no way it could be as devestating as it seems to be in AH. (If it was, why weren't 4 20mm versions of the spit used to kill tanks?)
(My reasoning as to if a Hispano round could penetrate tank armor, is that P47s armed with 8 50cal often knocked out Panzers. They did this by shooting behind the tank and bouncing rounds into the engine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Pyro, can you check and see if something has happened to the hispanos to make them so leathal? There are just too many people complaining about them recently to not have something wrong.
All of the above are just my own opinions of course. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'd hate to see weazel quit because of a small bug with the Hispanos. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
-
Pssst, Leonid, your from field is so long it's smashing the thread text. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
-
Weaz, Im right behind ya bud, fantasy terrain, and dweeb tactics=no fun. I love historical stuff and this aint it. Its the main reason I left WB, frag fests get old quick, d10 laser gunnery and such have burnt me out to bud.
------------------
Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
-
Gotta agree I am pretty burned out on the Main Arena. Hope we get something a little closer to a War soon.
However Scenarios and Squaddies RULE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hope you come back Weazel!
-
I don't know exactly what is driving you away Weazel but I can definitely say that I fell your pain. The game is getting to be a drag for me as well. The visuals and flight model are great BUT the overall gameplay is stagnant in this industry. I started online flying back in '93 with AW where we used WW2 airplanes to bomb and dogfight and C47's to drop troops to capture fields on multiple countried fictitious terrain. Well here we are 8 years later using WW2 aircraft to bomb and dogfight and C47's to drop troops to capture fields on multiple countried fictitious terrain... it just looks a lot prettier. As far as we think we've come on the journey, we've really barely left the driveway.
T
-
(hang blows the dust off the F15 cd case)
Nothin like a little afterburner action to freshen ones outlook flyin 'n dyin.
"FOX TWO!"
Hang
-
Nice vent, but what a load.
If you don't play the MA for 30 days, I'll pay for your account next month, really!
If you do play the MA in the next 14 days, YOU pay mine. Deal?
Dude, it's the best gig in town, get pissed, but don't quit, cuz really, ya can't!
[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
I luv the friggin Sim and it's only getting better.
Surely in the future we will get diff Arenas to appease all.
Personally if I don't like a place I just leave and don't stand at the door yelling.
-
Been having a blast myself, hard to believe it's the same sim we were playing in beta.
I don't plan on going anywhere for quite a long time.
------------------
Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"I ain't givin none of you bastards a hug who ain't bought me at least 6 beers."
-
Weaz,
Being a Dweeb myself (In the sense of Being NON experienced) I prolly die much more often than all of you.... I die in 2 ways : By meeting a superior opponent (<S!> ) and By a vulch Cannon that closes his eyes & sprays 800 rounds at me from D20...
As I will scream my agony when I meet the former (<S!> again), I barely show interrest in the later... Hey, as Heater says : "toejam happens...". I replane & try to avoid the Chickens O' the Sea as much as I can...
Conscerning A1, Well, I think this is probably a mistake that was done (If you do not try things, you will never know...) That will be resolved (IMHO) when Terrain editor comes out.
Lets not forget that (A)this sim is a long way from it's full potential and (B) HTC are only humans and are also susceptible to some glitches ('part from Ronni).
Reconsider...
Your Squaddie,
Saw
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
okay, sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Some times I just can't believe some of you people.
Since the early beta, I've seen post after post asking for this feature or that feature, or for this "thing" or that "thing". All or most all have lead to making this more and more like that other game. Now yer getting it for the most part, and yer complaining?????
Jeesh...
How long has this been out?? what 7 months??
The terrain editor is undergoing alpha testing as we type. Terrains will get better.
More planes are on the way. More features are on the way, better gfx etc.
HTC is busting their collective behinds giving us for the most part what we, the customers have asked for. And the BEST part is it's all been fairly rapidly, and with a LOT of communication from both sides. (their's and ours), which from my experience is a super major plus.
Like any other new toy, burnout happens.
I'm going through it also. But to fault the game itself, or the people in it, or the people behind the game is wrong. (not that anyone did, BTW).
------------------
GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
-
Man, what squad you in??? I need those titles, and many more!
I see General Major, Lt. Important 1st Lt. BigNuts Creamo, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council in my AH future.
Screw Fatty and a icecream sandwhich incentive for showing up on squad night.
I'm just Latrine Scrubber....but we'll see.
Do you guys wear helmets? That'd be cool.
-
I think the problem lies within everyones own personal mindset.
for me once I accepted the fact that although I'm pretty damn good most days some days I just stink and will die repeatedly.
after coming to this realization I decided I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else. Decided to stop flying with a me first and I must survive at all costs attitude. I traded it in for the most dangerous missions and flying style I could think of...
Jaboing the deadly super acks. I never knew how much fun it is till i sat on a hill in a c47 and watched Fatty who is the Rudel of Aces High take out a whole airfields ack in an f4u1c.
Then there is the satisfaction of "hero" flying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) basically throwing caution to the wind and diving in on 15 enemy aircraft on your wingmans tail and getting them all to follow you allowing your wingman to escape (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm getting good at this one... nothing makes 3 to 15 cons lick their chops when chasing a p51 like a big ole p-38 come swooping in and park right in front of them then lazily turn to evade the hail of gunfire they all be sprayin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
then theres the strat missions where you get 3 b17s and go nail the rooks city down to 0% then get a 5 b17 raid and go knock out their radar for 4 hours and after you done hitting dar you take your 1 b17 that didt drop and knock out the acks at the flak factory and spin down in b17s from 20k and straff it. fun fun fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
it's all how you play the game and the mood you are in at the particular moment.
The bigest pitfall and fun killer is getting killed, but just try to make this unpleasant part happen for a worthy cause because its gonna happen and happen a lot no matter how good you get.
or you could just fly the 109g10 and orbit the sun at 30k with Hristo and never get killed, but where's the fun in that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Sorry to hear your burned out Weazel, take a break and it will get better. Definitely been there and done that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But A1 ? Guys go back and read some of the threads about the beta terrain. We the players asked for "a central base where the volcano is, that has an alt advantage and is really hard to take". It might not be what we thought it would, but we definitely asked for it.
Cannon Hogs? *shrugs* unless you fly base defense in a Spitfire, the -1C is a none issue.
Easy to evade, easy to outrun, easy to outclimb, easy to outturn. All he has is the HO & snapshot, learn to avoid them and they're really good stat boosters.
Just my opinons... Hope to see you back soon Weazel, I'll Miss you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Some people like this sim, some people don't like it. People will come and go. Nobody forces anyone to play here or in any game, and HTC sure is not able to please everyone all the time.
I'm not just spouting off crap that I don't believe myself. I recently left FA after over two years of playing there. Left quietly for personal reasons, and I was very confident of my decision when I did it. (Even though they did not) People could have talked until they were blue in the face to try to convince me to stay, but a personal choice is very precious and nobody on this planet could have changed my mind.
If AH ever gets to that point, then I will quietly bow out here too. However, I don't see that happening for a *very* long time, since this type of game is so much more of what I was looking for in fun.
As for A1, I think HTC did it just to see what our reactions were to it. So far, I find our reactions to be "mild amusement" at best. As for that blue airplane, I don't care one way or the other. I don't fly it, and in tour 3 (according to stats):
fury has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the B-26B against the Fw 190A-8.
"fury has 0 kills and has been killed 2 times in the B-17G against the P-51D."
"fury has 1 kill and has been killed 2 times in the B-17G against the Spitfire Mk IX."
"fury has 0 kills and has been killed 2 times in the B-17G against the P-38L."
"fury has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the B-17G against the B-26B."
Bomber stats: 56 sorties for 56098 seconds.
The B26 has shot me down more than any F4U variant. So I abstain from voting. I'm not sure how I never seem to see any F4Us on my bomber (I never fly above 22k) and rarely fly below 14k).
Fury
-
This dont let the door hit ya on the way out attitude sucks and is quite dangerous. I doubt HT is making money yet, so each player is needed. Start gettin a holier then thou attitude and the doors shut mighty quick. Remember there aint much buzz about this game. But there is about another one. I know of quite a few people who are just here until something else comes along. For me I guess the honeymoon truly is over.
------------------
Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
-
Well...flying warbirds, Dawn of aces and Aces High I have often felt like you do. But I love flight sims and the above 3 have no equals as of yet. So I know I am not going to just up and quit. Basicly, It sounds like its time to get outside and smell the roses (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
I don't blame you weazle. The overmodeled LW planes are ruining the game. It must be hard to like a plane so much and realize that it is so overmodeled that you victories are trivialized.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Dnil:
This dont let the door hit ya on the way out attitude sucks and is quite dangerous. I doubt HT is making money yet, so each player is needed. Start gettin a holier then thou attitude and the doors shut mighty quick. Remember there aint much buzz about this game. But there is about another one.
I dont think anyone here is taking a high and mighty approach here, Dnil. As a matter of fact, I think there is more of a sympathetic attitude towards these pilots dissatisfaction with the current AH environment. I've seen more posts saying, "hey <fill in the name>, take a break and come back fresh" then I've seen in this thread saying, "hey <fill in name>, cyas, dont let the door hit ya in the ass".
I'm in the mindset, take a break, drive a tank, see how many goon runs you can run in a day, sit in the tower and chat with friends if you are getting sick of the fragfest. There are many days where I get so frustrated I am about to scream, but a nice change of pace suits me wonderfully.
Now about that other sim which has been apparently getting quite a buzz, I havent seen anything yet except a bunch of screenshots and avi's. Sure the closed beta is coming up with a subsequent open beta. In other words it aint here yet and I have a nasty feeling that all this hooplah is setting many folks up for disappointment. AH on the other hand is here now and having been here since Day 1, I have seen how far HTC has come in 7 or 8 months. They havent slowed down either and things are only going to get better.
If the other sim does turn out to be the end all be all, no one is saying we have to stay here and I will be one of the first to depart since WWII sims is my hobby. But for the time being, I will be here enjoying the many current aspects of AH and not even thinking about that other sim.
-Ding
-
We as a on-line sim community have the right to ask for updates, fixes, new stuff. One must not forget that the beings creating this sim are only human. I believe they have done one hell of a job so far!
I never played WB on-line so I am not so-called "burned-out" on what people are calling the "same ole thing". I'm still new to this on-line sim stuff. So my observations will, of course, be different.
I've seen some incredible pilots post here that are basically not having fun anymore. To them I say, please, of the sake of the rest of us, hold on. Enjoy what is here and get set for the future updates. You pilots are too important to lose. You have been around flight sims for a long time and many others, like myself, listen when ya talk.
I believe, FWIW, that this simulation has come a long way in a short amount of time. Am I wrong? HT and his crew have done their best to answer our request, complaints, questions, whatever we throw at them. They seem to care about their creation and the people that fly in the sim.
Sure I have a slight problem with the cannon hog. I've flown it once in the main and landed with two long distance 1-2 ping kills! I got torn apart by it a few times, but I have also shot it down a few times too. Overcomming the advantage that it has is a true pleasure.
The other day I ripped apart a F4U-C1 at 1.2 to 800 that was attacking my B-17. This distinguished F4U pilot never got a ping on me. He must of been thinking that the B-17's 50 cal are overmodelled!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Last night my B-17 was torn apart by a cannon hog, but I got him first!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So it is not totally OTL.
Please bear through the some of these rough times. Remember that there is always a little bit of pain with the pleasure!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I would truely hate to see anyone leave this sim because of one little area within the sim.
Settle down, take a deep breath, grab a B26 and bomb the toejam out of some city's church! It will make ya feel better! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
PS. I do go to church, that was just a joke!
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
Weaz;
Just take a break.
I did it, really helps to put the fun back in it.
On my break from AH my love for golf re-surfaced. I also played an on-line game called Nox, which is a total gas.
Good Luck, Hope to see you up so I can maybe shoot you down! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
-
It was a JOKE?!?
Damn, thought I had a possible recruit.
I don't go to church, except with my 109 and a bomb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
lazs is realy gettin up a head of steam.
-
I guess I want to like this sim much more then I do. I mean it does have potential. IMHO lately its just big free for all with the same issues I had with WB. I loved the scenarios and HA stuff. I like trying to simulate something that may have happened in the past. Again thats just me and right now its not there. The players have come along with some great stuff with the TOD and other scenarios but they really need CM tools and realistic terrains. Which I am sure are on the way.
I have 1 more month in me, I feel I can find some enjoyment still but its getting less and less. I guess since I have been down to the holy grail of projects and seen the stuff first hand I may be a bit jaded. I just want something new and ground breaking.
I just havent found it YET!
------------------
Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
-
Dnil,
My Squadmate! A little information for ya! If you even talk about quitting again, I'll come down there, search you out, buy ya a whole bunch of beers and find out what's really troubling ya!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have a nice day!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
Just take a break Weaz, the show's just beginning.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
-
Gawd Damnit Swager u know that was me, heard one ping wing fell off.
Instead of coming here and ranting I said not 1 word and replaned.
Other than making a small Voodoo doll of you, which I threw over the fence coated in steak sauce to my neighbours 2 pitbulls.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
Darn Torque! I wish I would of seen some smiley faces in your reply! Makes me feel kinda bad that the pitbulls are not getting fed good enough! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I knew it was you, and you knew it was you, but noone else did. I would not use an enemy's handle in a post in an open forum. If I upset you (because lack of smiley's), I'm sorry ! I used the word distinguished! As you are deeply into that category! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I was ranting, I would of used your name, because shooting you down is something to rant about!! Flaming you is a major accomplishment for me. You are one of the pilots I feel most uneasy about, when I know your are in the area.
We Cool? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Hope not to see ya up there!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
I thought they should know whom you meant. Since it was such a great shot I was 400 IAS converging on a steep headon kinda angle.
Never even pulled trigger.
BTW the ranting thingy in above post was not directed at you Swag.Twas a very long shot and I accepted it instead of coming here and you know.
Voodoo thing still applies tho and I just am not in a type smiley face day that's all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-13-2000).]
-
weazel I hope that door doesn't hit me in the bellybutton too. I'll come back when it is fun again. But no sense in paying to be pissed off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-
I dont know whether to laugh or to cry.
Perhaps Ill do both.
Jeeze....
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 05-14-2000).]
-
why are you guys pissed off?
wtf?
-
It`s a combination of things Citabria.
While I trust and believe Pyro and HTC have modeled the guns according to the proper specs,the realistic gunnery model just doesn`t work well with the range computing gunsights.
What we end up with are long range sniper kills and an arena full of people who confuse this with skill. I`m sure you know the type-they grab the plane with the best guns then lurk on the edges of the action and wait for someone to commit before rushing in and spraying them with cannon and dash back to the cover of ack. While I guess this type of dweebery must be fun for some of these so called "uber pilots",it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Citabria I agree with the idea to dump the range counters under D-3.0,after doing a no-icon fight in the TA it almost completely eliminates the long range sniper crap and places the emphasis on flying skills-not the guns.
Yeager ,yes you`ve seen this thread before-only question is did the author of that thread initially have a valid complaint?
(before it became a BBQ pit) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Torque this wasn`t a rant-more of a statement venting my frustration with the arcade gunnery currently in effect,if you weren`t having fun wouldn`t you do the same?
How else is HTC going to know about percieved problems or customer satisfaction/dissatisfaction if customers don`t voice their opinons?
So take your limp wristed attempts at flaming me and go play shoot em up in your "psuedo noodle",leave the flames to someone who knows how to do it right.
Lazs,your hook is rusty and the bait smells rancid, you should change it if you going to fish in this pond. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Yes, I’d blame icons and range indicators for uberness of certain cannons.
Removing them might start whole different issues on this board too, but generally I think it would be a step to right direction. Of curse, Knight P 51 has to recognize a Rook P 51 etc, so maybe a red line or something could be kept under enemy planes (and green line under friendly, of course).
In HA no icons/indicators would be great.
How would it affect gunnery ?
With icons removed, IMO, Hispanos will become just unneccessary weight. Sure they can kill beyond ID range, but that’s just their real life problem – too powerful for WW2 combat. If WW2 planes had range finders, I am sure LW would come with something more powerful than MG 151/20. At usual 200 yards firing ranges MG 151 vs Hispano difference is negligible.
-
Weas,
I dont have any gripes with the guns modeling. Ive been to the place they call realistic and it wasnt any better and was arguably worse for a lot of end users.
I do have some questions about the guns behavior on the 1C and feel that its introduction was a slip in an otherwise tremendously clean game build.
Yeager
-
I agre completely with hristos. At ranges under 300, the difference between Hispanos and 51's is there, but not such a major factor as it is beyond that distance, especially beyond 500.
So, if we could renmove the icons, which would be good for experienced pilots but make life for newbies a little more difficult, I'll retract my support for removal of the cannon hog.
------------------
StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
-
Weazel - I am new to AH and relatively new to sims but even in my very humble opnion I think you are just suffering from burnout and need a break. Sure AH has some bugs but are they enough to want you to give up your time invested so far and move on ? - I hope not.
There seem to be a few distinct issues here:-
1. Gameplay (fragfest)
Firstly everyone seems to agree that they enjoy the scenarios and structured events as they provide some realism to the flying.
OK that understood, why is it that in the MA it is such a free for all and anyone who suggests organising a planned operation is either flamed as a wanna-be general or ignored??
Then, these boards are filled with messages about the poor gameplay in the MA.
IT is the SAME people who fly in the MA, scenarios and write to these boards - isn't that kind of odd ??
[WE] are responsible for how the MA operates in day to day flying - choose not to take part with your countrymen and squad mates and a fragfest is what you'll get - it's our choice.
I've come from AW3 and it was the same there in the Full Realism Arena. It's a people issue and I can't see it being better anywhere else.
2.Bugs and Modelling Problems.
There are bugs and modelling problems in AH but I would argue they are acceptable when set against the overall quality of the Sim and the rate of progress - after all we are only at version 1.xx. AW3 was at 3.13 when I left and still had major bugs which we were informed were NOT going to be addressed (e.g. if you traversed a turret in a buff and elevated at the same time the traverse direction would reverse - made gunning interesting!).
I argue that AH is still just in it's fledgling stages and I think that if it's this good now then I certainly want to be around in a year or two's time. I cannot accept that the team who have produced something of this quality are going to stand by and watch others overtake them and so I believe the bugs and issues will be resolved.
I also believe that those solutions will bring other problems - thats computing and progress - it won't be different anywhere else.
One thing I am sure of is that the new products coming along - WB and the new AW (not vietnam now notice...) will be as bug ridden as their predecessors and you can be sure it is way more difficult to get through to the designers of those products than to the AH team.
For me AH Weazel the downsides are more than compensated by the oulook for the future. I can see that if you've been in AH for a long time - since the beta etc then the downs will seem pretty old by now but I think it would be a mistake to chuck it all in completely - take a break and come back fresh. If you move elsewhere then I would suggest you look for the signs of the cycle of events which brought you to leave AH starting again in your new choice - coz I'm sure they will appear.
I hope you and any of the other experienced people who may be thinking of leaving think VERY hard first - the newer community here need you.
-
Weazel..No matter what, the show has to go on, !!!!!!!
Improvments will come, Im sure of it, because if not, there will be to many "bailing out" from this game, making this a brand x clone only. We, the people that fly and are devoted to it makes the game ,AH, not the producers/developers. Even if they might think so (but I know they don´t).
If you throw in the towel, the barbielovers and stardestroydrivers has won. (you know, the guys that has such an urge to win, no matter what, making them cheat during a solitaire)
Please dont quit, we need ya here!!
------------------
BORK,BORK,BORK!!!"
Crabofix <What happend?...:A stranger morgie turndee burndee ,flip flip flip flip flip flip>
Flygflottlj.19(Lento R5)"swedish Gladiators"
-
So take your limp wristed attempts at flaming me and go play shoot em up in your "psuedo noodle",leave the flames to someone who knows how to do it right.
Hangtime, you think he's talking about "Willie" here ?
-
Torque,
I'm surprised you only heard 1 ping. The hit flashes started right away and continued as I followed your angle. I seen at least 9-10 hit flashes and was surprised to see the wing go up, espicially at that range. It was at an angle from my POV that allowed the tail, right waist, and top turret to fire. So there was alot of lead out there.
By the way, a little advice, my doll would probably go best with that honey-mustard BBQ sauce. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The pitt's will love ya for it!
Have a Nice Day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-14-2000).]
-
My My......whats all this fuss about?
Weaz...i think I understand that your unhappy with the gunnery here? Is that correct? Long range shooting? Uber guns?
Fact: There is no other WWII Online Flight Sim currently available that touches this one(I'm not gonna mention the $30.00 a month ) in quality or potential.
If you disagree with this statement, go find it and I'll join ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My suggestion to you is this....grab a 51....learn how to kill with it....then come talk to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)You lookin for a challenge in gameplay, this is it.
Well....I hope ya dont leave, but if ya do, I'll see ya when ya get bak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude Out!
-
Damn... I thought I was at the AH UBB board... it seems that I ended up at AGW instead.
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
-
Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Damn... I thought I was at the AH UBB board... it seems that I ended up at AGW instead.
Sniff sniff... this bait smells funny.
Az
-
Funked... We could set asside one arena and have only "historical" planesets in it and it would attract the elite who would then fly in a much more "realistic" manner. They could call this arena the... Oh, "Historical Arena" say...They could then come on here and make fun of all the "Quakebirds" who fly in the main arena. I'm sure that would solve the problem.
Weaz... I know what you are talking about but there is no "realistic" flying in this or any other sim. No one is forced on suicide missions... No one is forced on missions they don't want to go on in planes that they don't like.. No one is even forced to go on missions! Hell... No one even flys a finger four fer cripes sake. How can you blame people for hanging out on the fringes? Some here even want "streaks" to be rewarded making the problem even worse!!
How "realistic" is the mid (15-20K) alt lone wolf fighter hanging out on the edge of combat? That is what allmost all score/reward weenies want to encourage.
lazs
-
.....in it and it would attract the elite who would then fly in a much more "realistic" manner.
OMG, I hate that word....
You mean I would not be able to fly there because I don't have 5 years experience ? What about the "Newbies(far from being elite)" that like historical scenarios ? Are we out ?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
-
I may join Weaz after my tour of duty as instructor:
Example:
On the deck in a 190, F4U-1C behind me, D1.0 shot (956 to be specific) 1 shot, 1 ping, 1 dead FW.(I have film, email me if you want it)
Watched a 1C take down 4 bombers , 1 pass a piece. Uber cannons ruin the historic/Mission planning part of the game. I came for squad missions, I got uber-dweeebs ruining the game.
As of today, JG2 will no longer run ANY Friday night ops in Main arena. We will encourage those squads that want organized missions to set up days in Scenario arena. We're finished with Main arena.
------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
I./JG2~Richthofen~
=CO=Panzer Group Afrika-15th Panzer division
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
CLICK>> JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
CLICK>> 15th Panzer Division (http://members.tripod.com/deutcheafrikakorps/index.htm)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when
someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it
only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm, grasp the joystick button,
and shoot the sucker down!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-14-2000).]
-
You're not kidding Snake Eyes.
Had to check the url above to see where I was.
-Westy
-
I tend to respect you guys, but this entire "I'm not playing anymore I don't like that plane" thread is making it hard to.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 05-14-2000).]
-
Ok I have a solution.
Hitech needs to put a little text warning message in the "rear view" of our planes, just like we see on the side mirrors of our cars.
WARNING: Objects may be closer than they APPEAR!!
Rip, sorry if it sounds like I am giving you a hard time, but you have flown here long enough to know that if it says 956 on your FE, the other guy could easily have seen 600 to 700 depending on netlag. And while I think 600ish is a long range shot, its not impossible, depending on how you were flying. Only by looking at the film of the shooter can we even try to make an unbiased opinon.
Plus we all have to realize that 1 ping "sound" on our system, does NOT necessarily equal 1 hit flash on the shooters FE.
Anyways, it only takes one small bullet to end a pilots day. The Golden BB. It happens with every gunset in the game.
I would be very sad to see Rip, Weazel, and JG2 leave the game or the arena , but having a plane banned or a gunset "nuetered" is just not the answer in my opinon. Check for bugs, yes, I agree whole heartedily.
But if its correct, I don't see that big a deal with the plane the way it is.
Here is an offer. Next time you are in the arena, look me up. Fly a couple of missions with me as wingmen, and see my point of view on F4U-1Cs. I see them as excellent targets.
Other than that, all I can say is ...
Guys, take a break. Play with the kids, take the wife to dinner, or mow the grass. Too much exposure to anything can cause the kind of frustration I am seeing here.
But all said and done, I hope to see you all stick around. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
well said Verm
Gotta agree with bug hunting in the hispanos. I believe there is something wrong with them. Panzer armor is hardened to the point you can drive up to each ack on a field and keel it with the coax mg, but the hispano birds can still peel the panzers in a single pass. The Hawg-C gets most of the attention because Torque and several others fly it almost exclusively. The Hawg-C is also better handling than the tiffie, so it's filling that role also.
Weaz, Rip, I've felt that frustration before. I had even written an eloquent email to send to HTC detailing exactly why I was leaving. It got saved instead of sent and took a day or two off. Came back to the same old same old so I totally changed me flying style. This is when I swore off bombers and actually learned to fly the fighters. That took the edge off for a bit, but I ended up more frustrated. Took close a week off and got a fresh perspective.
Now I'm happily buzzing around killing when I can and running when I can't and for the first time in history my K/D is better than 1/1 (not much better, but it's a start (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Take a few days to a week off, get a fresh perspective. It'll do wonders for ya (and always remember to jink 1/2-1sec earlier than normal for netlag, hits are calculated on the shooter's FE)
------------------
CavemanJ
CO, The Wrecking Crew
"Airpower is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base."
--Hoffman Nickerson
To close with and destroy the enemy by use of fire, manuever, and shock effect
-
I respect the JG2, I really do, but what is this...I'm taking my ball and going home if it doesn't go my way??
Its a friggin sim, a game. These boards crack me up...the Flight Model is not accurate, the ballistic drop is not this, this style of fighting is dweebish, (this is better than Jerry Springer) And none of us have ever flown these in combat, but 5 yrs of sim experience makes up for that....blah! Then to mention skill...skill, you mean pilot skills....or computer game skills??
And Rip, your film will show what was on your FE, not the other guys. I know which incident your referring to....his FE was less.
I think it would be a mistake for anyone to just leave for 1 aspect of the game, which will probably be addressed at one point, but beware of always DEMANDING things to be tweaked. The JG2 wanted the tanks hardened, and some threatened to leave then, the tanks got hardened...rightly so, but I'm not real comfortable with the methods...change this or I leave.
So if JG2 leaves the main arena, will the sky fall, no, will we all miss out on some really great fights...yes (including the JG2).
Maybe create your own sim, that would solve your problems.
Look, is this thing perfect, no, but it sure is the best thing going right now.
Weaz and Rip, maybe just take a break or fly a different style for a while to break up the routine....You guys are great to have around, hate to see u pull up the stakes at this point.
Cobra
-
I can understand when someone vents their frustration. Just because someone throws their golf club in the water hazard doesn't mean they won't be having fun the next time they play. But it shouldn't go further than that or it becomes unhealthy for this game and community and puts me in a no win situation.
What you complain about is in my area of responsibility, so I'll give you my viewpoint. My interest is not in continuously changing the game, it's in advancing it. So I don't like to knee-jerk changes in until I'm convinced it is the proper action. On issues that are not clearly bugs, this may take some time.
The downside of this is when people go off the deep end. For example, I spent yesterday afternoon going over weapons modeling in detail and turned up a few things. Good news? Well maybe in that case, but maybe not in the overall scheme of things. Why? Because once somebody goes off the deep end, any changes that come about will be perceived as a result of their action. That perception will frustrate the majority of players who feel the loudest voices are the only ones listened to and will serve to reinforce that as a means to an end. That will degrade this community and our relationship with it. Alienation is a bad thing.
On the issue of long-range gunnery, I've repeatedly asked for examples of this because I can't do it. In all this time, only one person has come forward with a film and all it showed was a few hits for a lot of ammo expended, not even a kill.
And finally, I receive many mixed messages, often from the same player. For example Weaz, you state your discontent here for long range gunnery and people who hang outside of fights and pick people off when they're engaged. Then in another thread, you state that you'd like to see a Do 335. In this case, what you say you'd like to see is counter to what you don't like.
Everybody wants the game fashioned to suit their playing style, but that's not possible. The one frustration that only a player can fix himself is learning how to not get thrown off their game by other people's playing styles. If the only way you can enjoy the game is to have everybody else play it exactly the way you want them to, you'll never have fun.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
-
But if its correct, I don't see that big a deal with the plane the way it is.
Here is an offer. Next time you are in the arena, look me up. Fly a couple of missions with me as wingmen, and see my point of view on F4U-1Cs. I see them as excellent targets.
The frustration factor doesn`t stem from fighter vs fighter combat Verm,in tours 1-4 in my preferred aircraft(190) I`m 27-19 K/D over the F4U1C. The frustration occurs from examples like Ripsnort cites above,JG2 and the 15th Panzer Division missions in the past 2 weeks have both been well planned and executed-both have been torn apart not by overwhelming opposition,but by a couple of pilots in F4U`s. The ground attack probably failed because of lack of a good anti-aircraft vehicle for point defense,we had air cover but attrition and the necessity of RTB for fuel/ammo took its toll,the F4u pilots on the other side had the luxury of instantly respawning at the point of attack and beat us back.
The example Ripsnort cites above borders on absurdity,the B-17 was known for its ability to absorb huge amounts of punishment and that is reasonably modeled in all cases except against the F4U,the current incarnation of this plane absorbs damage like a sponge while smashing planes out of the sky with its "Star Wars" cannon.
I`m sure HTC has plans to remedy these issues and I salute them for the best WW II combat simulator to date-they have produced a remarkable game in a short period of time and have eclipsed their previous effort in Warbirds,I only hope they have the vision to come up with equitable solutions to the current problems.Badger has a thread started on the subject-I suggest everyone read it carefully and try to come up with some good answers.
-
Ok so the LW Iron boz are pissed because they can no longer fleaflick or rudder barrel roll warp away with ease now. The F4U can out dive them and has enough punch to damage a fleakflicking or rudder warping 190.BTW I've been killed more by 190's in a Panzer than any other AC weaze.
"On the issue of long-range gunnery, I've repeatedly asked for examples of this because I can't do it. In all this time, only one person has come forward with a film and all it showed was a few hits for a lot of ammo expended, not even a kill."
I constantly hear PY in the sky asking for film clips online from you guys complaining about the longball shots.
So email him the clips or just don't post.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-14-2000).]
-
You just played too much. Maybe one of the side effects of a flat monthly fee. Anything gets old if you do it enough! I think you were on almost everytime I signed on. Sure took you a long time to decide you weren't having any fun
-
Doug "Pyro" Balmos HiTech Creations
"Alienation is a bad thing."
A lesson well learned from WB and the Mac debacle/ Fiasco!
Congrads
-
If its the whole armor thing Weazel, I won't argue with you there.
Tanks as a whole are kinda screwy right now in my experience, but hey they're new and I figure they will improve over time.
I do know that I saw Pyro post that in the next revision, they're gonna add a x4 20mm cannon mount to the panzer body, equivalent to AW's FlakPanzer (forget what the real name of them were). This should help quite a bit over the x4 .50's on the halftracks for armor attack air defense.
Like I said tanks seem strange to me. When they first come out, I flew a Typhoon mission and happened across HT in a tank. I dropped two 1k eggs right on his head (crater was right over the tank) but neither had any effect. Fired all my rockets with no effect. And then finely damaged him to the point he had to ditch, with the cannons.
Bombs and Rockets seem to be useless, but 20mm cannons are peeling tanks right open, the exact opposite of what we should be seeing.
But on the other side of the coin, the gunners in armor vehicles get the same "hit bonus" (non fine gunnery as Pyro calls it) as the bomber gunners get. Anybody else notice it?). I had my Goonie shot out from under me the other day by a M16 that was over 3k away from me. His icon didn't even show up.
Anyways, my advice stands (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If armor attacks are frustrating you this much, dont drive tanks until some changes are made, and spend more time outside the game. It will really help.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
No Hitz, but you're closer than you could ever guess.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
-
This is funny , yes we need that german 1/2 track with the 4 20mm AAA cannon to protect the panzers(Remember these are just the 1st 2 vehicles to enter the game, are are not yet perfect?). The pazer's armor needs strengthened(or at least someone needs to tell it that 20mm cannons comming out of the wing of an airplane are not High Explosive NOT armor pierciing... Hell you guys ever make the mistake of getting into a tank to tank battle with the wrong type of 75mm shells?? Its not very fun, though they do work well for knocking a tank tread off...
Some guys think you should need more than 1 pass to kill a B17 when you have 4 20mm cannon in your wings? Laughable... I always read and watch documentaries on/from ww2 B17 crewmen... One on the sweinfurt(no I dont knwo how to spell it) raid talked about an attack from 7 or 8 190's on their B17 formation.. He said something to the effet of " they dove on us from 6 oclock hi, each pilot singled out a B17 and after they dove through our formation seven B17's fell out of the sky...." wow, kinda makes ya sick because that was not just a game, it was men dieing... THE POINT HOWEVER is Big Blue has pretty much the same guns as those 190's (unless you are gona argue the 190's had 2 30mm under the wings.. but I doubt they did...
You guys just need to realize airplanes are fragile , all of em, even the B17 and it does not take much to shoot em down. Sure a B17 can survive a direct 88mm hit in the nose or the rear fuselage or come home on one engine after jettisoning all uneeded weight. But a hail of 20mm hitting the bomb bay, horizontal stabilizer, cockpit, or fuel laden wings is gona spell trouble for your bomber boy.
Now, IF it makes you feal better , I was in a F4U yesterday and plastered a B26 with about 20 fashes of 20mm ,but nothing fell off the B26 that i coulds see, he shot me down and flew on, guess cuz it was from long range and the hits were disbursed all over his airframe. If I had been able to dive on him from altiude he would have fallen in one pass..
Now I must say.. I JUST LOVE THE F4U-1C, most guys that fly them(not you torque, I know you are good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)big heads becuase they can get 10 kills killing planes that have their wheels down and locked... well after getting vulched yesterday, I took my 109G10 up during a brief time when the F4U boys had to RTB(probably for fuel) When they came back I shot five of em down and landed safely.. that was awesome, a blast, 5 kills in a 109 armed with just the single 20mm and 2 Mg's(and the were ALL F4U-1C! that is the REAL saitisfying part. Lets see who were they? 10Bears, yea that was one, Silat... yea that was another.. Spivey.. yea I got him .... The other 2 had unmarked graves.... no loss... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Experten
-
Oh sorry for the typo meant to say most guys with F4U have big heads because they get 10 kills buy killing a bunch of guys that have their wheels down...
Anyway... There are a few things that are BS in this game, I'm sure Pyro will fix them
. One of them is bombers ramming tanks on the ground at their own airfields and salvoing all their bombs just before they hit the tank.
Please, lets make it so planes that are on the ground cannot drops their bombs, that is just silly. The bombs would not arm for one thing..
And yes I have done the above, I am guilty I was angry and resorted to loser tactics. It is a temptation I wish were removed...
Also we already talked about the tank armor weakness, you see after I killed that tank by ramming it with my B26, the element of surprise was gona and the Other tank at the field kept killing me with this 75mmm before I could taxi over too him.... So after his CAP thinned out I was able to take off in a spit Mk V and strafe him for the kill.... That should never have happened either.... Spit V killing a tank with guns WHAT EVER... Well I am sure that will be fixed
I just wana know when we gona get more vehicles, there are no flight models so to worry about so I hope new additions will be commming fast and furious... Personally I would like to see:
The previously mentioned M4 sherman with rocket launcher on the roof :-)
M4 with flamethrower? hehe can you say BBQ paratroopers?
***Panther MkV***
German 1/2 track
the troops carrier
and the quad 20mm variety
Can you say CAPTURE
FIELDWITH PAZER GRENADIERS?
Picture this is the not to distant future...
6 tanks head toward field A whatever... followed accompanied by 4 AAA (sdkfx251?)
4 88mm self propelled guns (or why not 155mm?) and 4 1/2 tracks carring pazer grenadiers.... From a distance the SP 88's go to work flatening the hangars while the panzer move in to slince the guns... Nobody knows the attack is on becuase ground units dont show up on radar or SECTOR ACTIVITY bars. You have to protect you fields the old fashioned way, check them with your eyeballs from the tower or partrol from above.
Tanks and armoured units no longer can be easily spotted from miles away and Icons are not visible from aircraft so even if a plane rolls "by accident" chances are he wont notice the vehicles unless they are right on top of the field..
Now I know this is a flight sim, but It is still unlikely an attack like this would go un-noticed on a saturday night, so Why not coodinate some air cover for your Vermacht brothers?
-
Look at my stats last tour in the 1c, with my gunnery i should not have that good a record. Please dont use the vultch crutch on the 1c, rarely were mine vultches in it. To me its the same game over again, fantasy air fight with old planes, nothing new and refreshing. I dont expect people to play the way I like to play, but I know of a couple players who are still having lots of fun but are just here waiting it out. Gimmie a new ground breakin icon solution. Lower the hit sprite animation. I personally feel the gun problem is the icons, way to easy to judge closure, distance and lead from them. Also does 1 hit sprite equal 1 round? I always forget that. I would love to have that crack addict feel again!
------------------
Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
-
"Anyway... There are a few things that are BS in this game, I'm sure Pyro will fix them
. One of them is bombers ramming tanks on the ground at their own airfields and salvoing all their bombs just before they hit the tank."
Wow! I didn't know you guys had Car Bombs.... That sounds like fun... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by OTTO 111th Fighter Group (edited 05-14-2000).]
-
Well Ive got to admit, this one has me stumped. Is this an issue that just some in JG2 are having or is it more widespread?
Yeager
-
Whatever,
I wish the best as this competition between games really benefits the players and pushes the envelope. Hopefully OpenGL comes soon to AH for the real flyers to test.
:-)
-
I have no issues with AH! But then again I'm pretty much of a nobody. Meaning I don't have a lot of On-line flight experience. I just know I have fun!
Either Weaz or Rip leaving AH would be difficult for JG2. Both of them leaving would be devastating. I just don't know what to say! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
-
weazel,
Trust me, I know how you feel, I can't put a finger on it either. The easy explanation is that I either truely suck...or am in the mother of all slumps. I am truely pitiful in the MA over the last few months...maybe training has something to do with it...detiorated SA or such. Truthfully, I think my flying is actually better than ever. Do the uber planes hurt gameplay...not much to me. My FE is further off than ever (hoping for DSL this month).
To me the real issue is simply the chance for something wonderful, given the growth of the game so far I have high hopes for the future. In the meantime...a tanking..er buffing..maybe jaboing I go...one wonderful day i'll get it back...till then...you ever notice the sun is always shining in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
"I have no issues with AH! But then again I'm pretty much of a nobody. Meaning I don't have a lot of On-line flight experience. I just know I have fun!"
That is the whole point of AH Swag, too bad others don't see it that way.
Off to make another Voodoo doll.
Humble don't be such a newbie because if this is your first slump heads up alot more coming. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Just have fun with what we are offered for the time being.Better than waiting another year for AH purty release.
HTC has how many happy paying customers #1500.How many unhappy?
-
My $.04 in this discusion.
First off I am a TOTAL dweeb here. Still just learning the game. I do have some qualifications in other areas however. I do know tanks. I am a just retired Armor Officer in the Army. I studied and trained in tanks. I also trained other tankers. I want to say a couple of things about the 20mm vs tanks debate.
1. Armor is strongest on the front slope. Due to weight considerations it is weaker elsewhere, PARTICULARLY on the top. WW2 armor isn't what we have now on current battle tanks. It was often welded hardened plate and occasionally homogenous armor. The track and support wheels are much easier to take out.
2. Ammo loads in aircraft were not a single type of ammo unless ammo restrictions (like lack of) were in place. The most common American mix was ball, AP (armor piercing), incendiery and incendiery AP. This type of mix can now cause considerable damage to modern tanks even from a .50 cal. machine gun. Should you expect penetration from the front? Nope, but you can bet you can expect damage from all systems not behind the frontal armor with multiple hits from above.
Remember seeing those neat gun films of a plane straffing a destroyer and the destroyer blew up??? The destroyer had thicker armor than most tanks of the time.
3. 20mm with a mix of ammo similar to the above listing WILL get severe damage to the upper portion of a tank to include the engine compartment and fuel storage areas. Particularly if it is a Soviet style tank with external oil and fuel tanks. I know you have seen the barrels on the rear are removable (with notice for the crew) but there are other containers on the fenders that do not come off. Artilery types like to say they can kill armor with a mix of air and ground bursts of DPICM munitions. They call it shake and bake. Just one piece of burning ammo in a fuel pod can ruin your day.
4. Bomb modeling?? I agree a 500 pounder with a near miss will cause a tanker to fill his drawers. Viet Cong used to make mines out of 500 and 750 pound bombs we provided. They were duds. They were then burried and a detonator was added. A command detonation of that bomb under a tank turned it inside out. The shock and disruption of the ground can "stick" a tank so that it cannot move. If the tank is up to it's belly in soft ground the tracks lose the ability to move the vehicle. I have "sunk" a tank and helped in the recovery of my entire platoon when the hardened crust of the road gave way and the tanks sank into the soft stuff below. Bombs should cause some real problems with near misses (within 20 yards). A real close (inside of 2 to 4 yards) hit should flip the sucker over. Then drops of the bomb from less than 500 feet should also frag the plane.
5. What am I saying with all of this? Tanks can be killed by plane guns. The warthog does just fine with a 30mm gattling and that is against some of the finest armor available now, not what there was almost 60 odd years ago. It isn't just the fact that the tank is being hit by a DP (depleted uranium) round. It's that the tank is being hit by quite a BUNCH of DP rounds that does it in. Just think, a 30 ton tank was a main battle weapon then. Armor was thinner and less capable. The only thing I see needed in AH at this point is to add better anti aircraft guns on the top of the tanks. If the tank is shooting back it spoils the pilots aim.
Last comment. ALL B17's were more fragile than tanks. Buffs should expect to die from multiple cannon hits. One 20mm in the spar on a loaded buff should buckle the wing. Just play the game.
Can't we all just get along and kill each other??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Mav
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok I have a solution.
Hitech needs to put a little text warning message in the "rear view" of our planes, just like we see on the side mirrors of our cars.
WARNING: Objects may be closer than they APPEAR!!
Rip, sorry if it sounds like I am giving you a hard time, but you have flown here long enough to know that if it says 956 on your FE, the other guy could easily have seen 600 to 700 depending on netlag. And while I think 600ish is a long range shot, its not impossible, depending on how you were flying. Only by looking at the film of the shooter can we even try to make an unbiased opinon.
Plus we all have to realize that 1 ping "sound" on our system, does NOT necessarily equal 1 hit flash on the shooters FE.
Anyways, it only takes one small bullet to end a pilots day. The Golden BB. It happens with every gunset in the game.
I would be very sad to see Rip, Weazel, and JG2 leave the game or the arena , but having a plane banned or a gunset "nuetered" is just not the answer in my opinon. Check for bugs, yes, I agree whole heartedily.
But if its correct, I don't see that big a deal with the plane the way it is.
Here is an offer. Next time you are in the arena, look me up. Fly a couple of missions with me as wingmen, and see my point of view on F4U-1Cs. I see them as excellent targets.
Other than that, all I can say is ...
Guys, take a break. Play with the kids, take the wife to dinner, or mow the grass. Too much exposure to anything can cause the kind of frustration I am seeing here.
But all said and done, I hope to see you all stick around. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Verm, Sniper1 was the shooter, said I was 850 on his FE, mine showed 954. (I have him saying this on buffer in film) So, IMO, 850 with 1 shot (he even says on film "One shot, one kill!") is just a tad bit extreme.
I'm not sure if HTC thinks this is a reasonable distant or not, it's happened to me more than once, although I've just recently started filming this. Pyro, HTC, do you want this film or not? Let me know. Again, 950 on my FE, 850 on his, he says "one shot, one kill!"....is this reasonable? (I was not flying a zero, I was flying a reasonably armoured FW) Post here if you want it.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-15-2000).]
-
Well I for 1 had a burn out about 3 months ago and almost quit but decided to take a break instead.
For me it was the same old stuff every night get in a plane and kill/be killed then do it again a dozen times more....got old.
When I came back I started to do things that were more of a challenge.
I now hardly ever fly(unless it's a 47). I spend most of my time in a tank trying to sneak into bases or hit a city/HQ.
My favorite thing to do right now is to leave from v56 to the nw and roll down the hill se of a27. You can roll all the way into the center of the base in less than a min if you don't use the brake. If you haven't done this your missing something.
I guess my point is that the game is what you make of it. Try something new..try to take an A-base by yourself in a tank without being seen...fly a 47 around...just try something off the wall just to see if you can do it.
If all else fails don't fly for a week or 2 and come back in and see how it is.
------------------
Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
-
Hmm having said it elsewhere, I say it here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
No trees! tanks survive in 3 dimensions by denying the third dimension a target, it's called taking cover (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) there is no cover here, there is very little hope of local air support (it's very rare) AAA vehicles mostly stay in treelines in order to ambush airdales, out in the open, you might kill one, but nothing available had guns that faced in two directions. Oh and stop already with the bleeding A10 nothing in the 1940's used depleted uranium rounds,(or 3000 of them per minute,for that matter) bombs aren't doing enough to ground targets, maybe no modelling of blast radii? Pyro? care to enlighten? (or not, it is your game after all) the major sticking point seems to be range icons and no place for ground units to hide, On the other hand, If ground units had cover, a lot of airfields would fall on a regular basis, 'cuz folks would not like flying low trying to see into treelines and getting blown away by the first fighter to happen along. Interesting contradiction, perhaps the folks who are burnt out should plan vacations, the folks who are getting ulcers should use Maalox, the ones who enjoy the sim keep enjoying, and all of us try to form more constructive ways to handle the issues we think need it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Then again, y'all can say I'm fulla crap and go on yelling like a mob, as usual
------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
-
What's with that "armored 190" stuff ?
Wasn't the "sturmblock" thing armored FROM THE FRONT ? The conopy glass and all ?
Where does the notion that 190 was a tough plane to kill comes from ?
it is only about 1000lb heavier then Spitfire and trust me - it's not due to the armor...
Anyone read the warbirds book ? Canadian ace talks about how easy it was to set 190s afire....
Countless times LW in WB argued that 3 or 4 20mm shells should rip the fighter apart. Well... do you really suggest that 190 should be able to take 20mm hits ? Come on guys !!!
When i see 190 or F4U on my 6 closing in, i know that it is time to get the hell out of his way...
He can put lot of rounds in the air and only few need to hit to ruin my day. So don't expect to outrun 20mm shells...
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Originally posted by -lazs-:
Weaz... I know what you are talking about but there is no "realistic" flying in this or any other sim. No one is forced on suicide missions... No one is forced on missions they don't want to go on in planes that they don't like.. No one is even forced to go on missions! Hell... No one even flys a finger four fer cripes sake. How can you blame people for hanging out on the fringes? Some here even want "streaks" to be rewarded making the problem even worse!!
How "realistic" is the mid (15-20K) alt lone wolf fighter hanging out on the edge of combat? That is what allmost all score/reward weenies want to encourage.
lazs
Exactly. We can take a plane out of a sim..but we cant take the sim out of a sim.
The Panzer truppe in normandy didnt like the air situation either...
But I agree that the HS kind of makes tanks silly in the game. I wish we could all just accept that Pyro is looking at the gunnery model and that if he can fix it he will. Give him the chance to do so.
-
Rip's comment:
"As of today, JG2 will no longer run ANY Friday night ops in Main arena. We will encourage those squads that want organized missions to set up days in Scenario arena. We're finished with Main arena."
I'd like a piece of that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)! Our squad came from the warbirds HA arena, and personally I'd prefer to fly in the SEA area.
Is there some sort of a schedule or calandar that says what is going on in the SEA, and when? If not, maybe someone should start one.
gospel
332nd Mongrels
-
Ripsnort, you're familiar with netlag right? "956 to be specific" could be as little as 700. Just because you heard only one ping doesn't mean there weren't more.
-
JG guys leaving a sim in a huff after anouncing it on a BB because they don't like not having the most powerful gun set in the game? Why does that sound so.... so... familiar somehow?
lazs
-
Funked, again, my FE said 950, Sn1per1's FE said 850 (I have this on film) So, I would imagine it was between 850 and 950? Also, 1 ping, he said "1 shot, 1 dead plane", but I imagine it was actually 2 shot, possibly 4? Dunno, going to do some long range gunnery experiments tonite in TA.
-
Funked the statman.....like those accurate quotes, especially about the F4u-4. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Weaz..I just tried out my new electronic BBQ fork last night and it worked like a charm..
Hold still Ill tell ya if your done..
plug your ears guys.
nope...only rare yet..back in the MA with ya..
-
Originally posted by -lazs-:
JG guys leaving a sim in a huff after anouncing it on a BB because they don't like not having the most powerful gun set in the game? Why does that sound so.... so... familiar somehow?
lazs
Sniff sniff... *puke*... this bait smells really funny.
The problem some people have with 4 HS cannons is that you point them somewhere and everything goes poof. Be it a column of tanks, be it some buffs.
If that's fine for you, gameplay wise, your opinion. But your attempts to alienate AH players from each others are obvious. Familiar sound your stitches, I think I've seen them on AGW.
And, although in a LW squad, you won't see me in LW fighters, so I don't mind. I'm a tank driver (that comes to a stop and hits .ef if he sees a F4U nowadays) and a buff driver (that is tempted to hit alt-F4 when a F4U shows up). I've been worked over in countless ways by 109 and 190 drivers, they deliver a bang if they make a smart attack and they deserve it, but HS equipped planes just hang on your 6 and deliver deadly blows while they are getting shredded. To be honest I can't remember that I ever had the chance to hit a F4U deadly.
To summarize, I'm the favorite F4U bait - I think I can consider myself lucky that european time doesn't see that much F4U's yet, either the players are smart enough to fly another plane or fair enough to choose another ride.
I've had lots of fun yet killing tanks in a tank (my anti-tank ride), and getting killed was a matter of aim, experience, position, luck, eyesight, the better man, whatever, not the biggest guns. It was fun.
Seeing a F4U just kills the fun, that's the problem. You know he points his guns at you and that's it. Yawn. At least most 109/190 pilots have to think about the loadout they take if they want to stay competive in the hostile environment - the C has it all. That problem is not related to USAAF/USN/RAF/VVS/IJN/IJA/RA/LW squads, but to buff and tank drivers.
Az
-
Been playing sims since AW DOS on GEnie.
Haven't EVER had the benefit of a development team as dedicated, experienced and responsive as HTC is in this sim.
It's still a young sim and improvements just keep rolling out of the Grapevine office. Gotta love that!
Sure, there's some things I find strange or not to my liking but I HAVE YET TO FIND ANY OTHER FLIGHT SIM OF THIS HIGH QUALITY THAT OFFERS SO MUCH "FUN" FOR SO LITTLE PRICE.
All this whining and moaning has sent Pyro back thru the programming, checking, checking and re-checking. Nothing wrong with that...just proves this game will keep getting better and better. Where else do you get this kind of tolerant, patient response?
I'm very happy and I'm staying.
HTC, just keep doing it the best you know how...cause it's damn good!
-
Well said Toad!
-
I agree, well said Toad, although if all this whining has Pryo checking and re-checking then I hope it doesn't take away from the pace of the development we have seen.
Azrael,
Rip posted in another thread about justifying why he Alt-F4'd last night. I sure hope you guys don't get mad and rant over open channel or post about cowardice if someone Alt-F4's on you just because they don't agree with a tactic or plane or even a dweeb move. But hey, to each his own.
Cobra
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 05-15-2000).]
-
Maverick:
Yes close calls should screw a tank's day, but also keep in mind that the bomb HAS to be of a considerable size. If a 1k lands within 20 yards that tanks gonna be flipping like burgers at McDonalds. But Stuka's in WWII quickly found out a a T-34 needed close to a direct hit to damage it. And that was with 250 lb's I believe. If IRC the exact figure was within 4 meters to disable a T-34 or Kv-1a. Assuming german tanks were comparable that means only the 500 and 1k bombs should have the shockwave effect your talking of.
As per 20mm, well I just don't buy it. For one thing to get the penetration your discussing on the top tank armor they needed close to 0 degree deflection. From what I have read of the eastern front most planes gained results by firing from behind or taking low strafing runs to put a high amount of hits into the side plates at low deflection. IMHO 20mm is quite proper here for type 99 and ShVAK, it does damage but cannot easily kill unless you follow the proper attack methods. But IMHO Hispano on the F4u-C CAN NOT be as effective as what was on a Tiffie. The tiffie would be the ONLY plane loading AP rounds for hispano. What in the name of god would a spit or F4U driver have them in his loadout for??? For one thing 20mm was rare and hard to come by for the F4u, I think records will prove it was 99.99% HE rounds used. The Spit may have had a small amount loaded, but not often. Hell MkV shouldn't even HAVE HE hispano.. it was mostly solid rounds due to pre detonation problems on early cannons... hmm, maybe this is why it's penetrating... a solid round would be AP by defenition wouldn't it?
fd ski: the 190 was well armoured. Very well in fact. But only around the pilot and motor. And then only really against shell fragments and rifle caliber. I think the back plate may have been designed to deflect 20mm, but probably only a poor angle shot and even then likely only 1. I agree planes hit by 20mm should be going to heaven soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But taking a 190 A8 with 7.65 should be almost impossible, and with only 12 or 13 mm should only be with difficulty.
-
Great post Sorrow. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
However the USAAF had no difficulty taking Fw 190 with 12.7 mm. In particular the ammo containers in the wings and the exposed fuel injection lines in the engine compartment are vulnerable. BOOM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've been reading stories of Fw 190F and G Schlachtgruppen. They felt it was was neccesary to get the bomb in contact with the tank for a kill, so they used delayed fuses and very low level attack with the prop almost hitting the ground. They would fly level at the tank and then release the bomb and pull up right before colliding with the tank. If they aimed well, the bomb would either collide with the tank or slide under it. The delay was enough for the plane to get away then BOOM the tank would become scrap metal. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Of course such tactics are worthless here due to the incredible 75mm AAA panzer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-15-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Cobra:
Azrael,
Rip posted in another thread about justifying why he Alt-F4'd last night. I sure hope you guys don't get mad and rant over open channel or post about cowardice if someone Alt-F4's on you just because they don't agree with a tactic or plane or even a dweeb move. But hey, to each his own.
Cobra
I wrote I am tempted, not that I actually practice or justify it.
And enemies hitting Alt-F4 while I am in the area with a buff/tank/goon is a good idea if you ask me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Az
-
Azrael,
Sorry you are right, you said you are tempted when flying, of course hitting .ef in a tank is the samething. Like I said, to each his own. I respect the JG2 too much to even think that they would start doing or even thinking about these things. I know it can be frustrating, but that's when I try something different to break up the routine.
To me, if a tank hits .ef then job done.
Cobra
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 05-16-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Cobra:
Azrael,
Sorry you are right, you said you are tempted when flying, of course hitting .ef in a tank is the samething. [...] To me, if a tank hits .ef then job done.
So if I'm hitting .ef in a tank when I see that the defender take a F4U instead of a tank it's a virtual Alt-F4?
Az
-
Az,
Please keep the whole quote, including the part where I stated I really respect you guys.
I really don't want this to be antagonistic, so .ef is ok with me. I guess it really doesn't matter.
Cobra
-
Cobra, we are not Borg (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'm always speaking for myself, and since you expressed your opinion about the .ef thingie in tanks (which probably isn't a matter in next ver anymore) in a reasonable way, I just wanted to ask if that is indeed your point of view.
If yes, I'd just like to state that .ef in a tank when I see a F4U is my kind of protest.
I did care so much about getting my buff home in the beta days that any disco led to accusations of alt-F4 because I was flying cautiously. Now I'm affected by the bumpy runway bug and don't care anymore if I die, bail, ditch, get captured or land, partly because it's hard to find likewise minded buff drivers at euro times. But I divert.
Probably my problem is just that I don't like getting shot at with planes from the same 'country', i.e. by a Spit when flying a B17. But that is a MA syndrome that can't be cured on the short term, due to lack of players (at euro times esp.) and due to lack of planes.
And just in case I should ever get annoyed too much about aspects of this sim (which I doubt), I'll just go quietly, without noise. Although never been a member of the WB community I witnessed to much bad blood from goodbye messages.
Well, guess no one is reading this thread anymore, so let it die.
Az
-
COBRA!!! You Snake!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Whoops! Was I supposed to comment on something? Sorry! I seen Cobra and I just had to say hello!!
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-16-2000).]
-
I'm just posting to make it close to 100 , this is 99! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cobra, first time I've EVER alt-F4'd in 10 years of flight sims. I won't explain it again, you read the thread.
-
I have nothing intelligent to add to this thread, but I just wanted to beat SAW here and be post #100. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Az,
Actually, I think we are of the same mind on this issue. At first I felt that .ef in a tank was the same as a virtual alt-F4, but I can see your viewpoint about being attacked by 'same' country planes, and I can also see your point about the F4U protest, although I will admit to using one to attack armored columns as it is an effective column killer. I tank alot also, and the only thing I really fear is another tank or a -1C, and I fear the -1C much more than another tank.
I wish there was a way we could do some of these HA things at a more Euro-Friendly time.
LOL...I think you and I are the only ones reading this thread anymore.
I was never a member of the WB community either, but I agree with you on the goodbye messages.
Salute
Cobra
-
Post # 8 or 9 from Bloom25: "I don't want to start a 100 post thread about whether or not the guns are overdone..."
Ha! 102 now, and counting!
-
Originally posted by Cobra:
LOL...I think you and I are the only ones reading this thread anymore.
Well, some guys (avoiding to look at saw and rip) seem to think that UBB forums are another way of padding the score or so, but I have the feeling that they are in fact reading the numbers instead of the posts.
Then there are the guys that like to peek others that voice there problems here, be it the right or the wrong way. To each it's own. I won't go into namecalling or such things, I'm sure you're nice guys @home but you prefer to behave otherwise in the unpersonal area of the internet, your choice. Obviously some guys never had the opportunity to see how customer service works - and that is not directed against HTC which obviously have an excellent customer service because you don't hear anything about it - and like to alienate others and kick them when they're on the ground just for the fun of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) If that sounds too harsh, that's just my impression I got of some threads here.
<S> to Boston, Cobra. If we have the chance to do a tank-only battle in the SEA at euro-friendly times, I'm looking forward to fight with or against you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Az
-
Just read through this whole thing and got to Ripsnorts post about my kill.
The actuality is that I started firing on him at 850 on my FE .. it was way more than 1 shot, in fact, I was suprised when he didn't complain about "spray and pray" .. because that is what I was doing (after chasing him for 3-5 mins) ...
The buffer msg about "one shot, one kill" was a humorous intent either after Rip complained about one ping or Cobra mentioning that my nick is Sn1p3r .. I don't recall. "one shot, one kill" is a favorite term used by snipers in the armed forces.
Fact of the matter was that I was on a very wide slow closing lead turn and opened up (sprayed) when he was 850 on my FE. I saw no fewer than 4 flashes as I continued to close on him and then his tail came off. I remember Rip telling me he caught it on film and that I was D1.2
For what it's worth ... send in the film Rip. I only regret that I wasn't filming it also.
-
Ahem.
-
Ahh yes funked.. true.. but here is another point- US .50 cal and ShVAK could take a 190 allright, both were very high velocity. But theres no arguement that it wasn't "easy". The US had it in the shade- 6 to 8 guns on target got the amount you needed to hammer the plane to bits and punch through that plate. ShVAK however were usually 2 to a plane- very very difficult. I know either could do it- many many parts were not covered and unarmoured, but it was difficult to shoot down compared to planes like a 109. Much the same philosophy as an il-2 or that stuka with all the armor on it.