Help and Support Forums => All things VR => Topic started by: Randy1 on April 03, 2017, 06:56:51 AM
Title: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on April 03, 2017, 06:56:51 AM
If you have a good setup using trackir then switching to VR is like being a newbie all over again.
I have my left and right rear views setup so that is not a problem but with trackir I could follow and a plane or setup for a bomb drop on a gv without ever losing sight.
Any tips on using vr and the hat switch?
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Gman on April 03, 2017, 03:41:11 PM
I feel/felt much the same way, going from hat views to TiR was a royal PITA for me, so many years of thumbhat views ingrained into my reactions. VR obviously looking behind yourself is extremely difficult, harder than RL IMO due to you can't use peripheral vision like you can with just your eyes, ie I can see my 6 in a plane with my head at 4 oclock or so, where as in VR it needs to be almost dead 6 to see 6.
The only tip I have I guess is to just get used to it. The hat view I use most while in VR is just the thumb hat down/6 view, probably 99% of the time it's the only hat view I need, but I do use the left/right 90 degree hat when I feel like it as well. In combat though, I just treat VR like trackIR, except say at a merge, I"ll flight the thumb hat instantly to get a track on the target in my 6 view, and when I start pulling him into my front view, I'll release the thumb hat and simultaneously start looking heads up with the VR to pick up the con.
It's a real conundrum for me, the game looks so cool in VR, yet admittedly I'm nowhere near as good while in VR when in fights. Yet. I keep switching back and forth, and probably should stick with VR. I'll state with 100% certainty that I can fight far better in AH in VR than I can in DCS flying jets, due to no thumb hat views incorporated there.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on April 04, 2017, 07:21:59 AM
. . . It's a real conundrum for me, the game looks so cool in VR, yet admittedly I'm nowhere near as good while in VR when in fights. Yet. I keep switching back and forth, and probably should stick with VR . . .
Thanks Gman for your reply. I agree. Now that I have my video card setting in good shape, I want to spend more time in VR because the large size scale view is so cool.
Sounds like practice, practice is the right answer. At near 70, the old dog thing is working me over.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on April 04, 2017, 01:20:07 PM
Has anybody tried padlock view with VR?
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on April 04, 2017, 03:39:50 PM
I had a few minutes to test padlock out with vr. I thought it might work in the rear and side views but it does not. It will work if you turn off the camera like on trackir.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on May 02, 2017, 02:21:18 PM
I corresponded with Natural Point(TrackIR) about life without TrackIR when using VR. I had hoped they might have in development, a rift camera plug in and or a possible 3rd party software program that would make use of TrackIR software to fix VR's limited turning view.
They replied they do not. A sad day for us VR-trackir users.
With just a little boost in turning views, AH could have the best VR game in the business.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: 1stpar3 on May 02, 2017, 04:56:48 PM
YUP! I agree. Just a small tweak in curves after you hit 90 degrees would be handy. I mapped a hat switch, works ok, but not as well as it could be :old:
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Skuzzy on May 03, 2017, 07:00:14 AM
Doing what you are asking would make moist people very dizzy, disoriented, and/or nauseous, very quickly. VR headsets are not 2D devices. These devices are fooling your brain into thinking you are in a cockpit and if the world motion does not correspond to what the brain expects, then it can have very negative effects on your physical being.
The single jump to the rear view makes me disoriented for a few seconds after I have been flying a bit. So mush so I do not use it. I'll just look around behind me.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on May 03, 2017, 07:44:40 AM
Doing what you are asking would make moist people very dizzy, disoriented, and/or nauseous, very quickly. . .
I do not agree. I spent a lot of time developing my TrackIR profile to make head speed appear natural. The speed on most profiles is fast. My curves are very steep but have the speed slider set to .3.
I do think it could be done but it would be delicate.
If AH could pull this off, it would be way cool.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Skuzzy on May 03, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
You can disagree all you like, but there is a significant difference in how 2D and 3D is perceived by your brain. It is not anything conscious, but it is very different.
In VR, when you start doing things, which are not done in the real world, is when things get dicey. 2D is easy. No problem there as it is completely disconnected from the real world.
Here is an example. Take someone who has a fear of heights and have them look at a 2D scene looking down from the top of a skyscraper. They will not be bothered by it. Take that same scene and put it in a VR headset and they will panic.
Of course this assumes the headset is properly calibrated to the user.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Dobs on May 03, 2017, 10:53:16 AM
NON-motion, full video simulators cause the same issue that skuzzy is referring to. Inner ear/brain conflict usually resulting in nausea or general sense of discomfort.
You can get acclimated to it, just takes time.
The problem with checking "6" in RL is that most chairs we use are padded and resist swiveling your hips/butt. Jets tend to have a firm, non-compression seat which makes it easy to swivel hips/butt to enable better checking 6...of course it also depends on how tight you make your seat straps to the seat kit...too tight locks you in, too loose could cause problems in case of ejection. Gotta be Goldilocks and make it "just right" :)
Anyword on higher res VR headsets yet?
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Skuzzy on May 03, 2017, 11:01:08 AM
There are some higher resolution panels coming, but they probably are not in a hurry to implement them as there are only one or two video cards on the market which could handle them.
My guess is they will wait for a generation of video cards so there are more which can drive higher resolutions.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: nooby52 on May 03, 2017, 11:07:17 AM
One simple solution to checking your six would be to install a rear-view mirror on some planes....right? I know your view back would be be somewhat limited but, with the addition of the REFLECTION feature in AH3 why couldn't there be a rear-view mirror? I may be showing my ignorance here (wouldn't be the first time), but what am I missing?
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: hitech on May 03, 2017, 12:21:35 PM
One simple solution to checking your six would be to install a rear-view mirror on some planes....right? I know your view back would be be somewhat limited but, with the addition of the REFLECTION feature in AH3 why couldn't there be a rear-view mirror? I may be showing my ignorance here (wouldn't be the first time), but what am I missing?
Your missing how small the view in a mirror really is.
HiTech
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Wraith_TMS on May 03, 2017, 12:30:50 PM
There are some higher resolution panels coming, but they probably are not in a hurry to implement them as there are only one or two video cards on the market which could handle them.
My guess is they will wait for a generation of video cards so there are more which can drive higher resolutions.
Agreed. IMO, gen 2 devices will probably see improved rez, possibly in conjunction with foveated rendering used along with some sort of eye-tracking to place the fully rendered sweet spot wherever the user is looking within the VR space. Foveated rendering, even without eye tracking, does seem to reduce the load even on current cards (https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/68x78i/foveation_builtin_to_cv1_driver/), but we're a bit away from it being used as a common development practice, apparently.
You can disagree all you like, but there is a significant difference in how 2D and 3D is perceived by your brain. It is not anything conscious, but it is very different.
In VR, when you start doing things, which are not done in the real world, is when things get dicey. 2D is easy. No problem there as it is completely disconnected from the real world. . . .
I am not trying to mash your grapes Skuzzy. Your gaming-PC knowledge base is way over my head. The 17 Pounder supports your side for sure. In regular AH the 17 Pounder fixed view kinda sucks but in VR it makes you nauseated.
In real life you can add addition rear view with a eye slant which you do not have in VR. That bit more hurts the rear view.
Still, I sure would like to try a modified movement curve on VR like TrackIR. If I chunk supper, then Skuzzy, you were right.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Mister Fork on May 03, 2017, 04:04:45 PM
MY 17 pounder view is ALL messed up - can't really use the gun. The AA 88MM however - VR actually helps with it's ZOOMING capabilities. I'm a bit of a beast when I'm in a 88 and tanks are rolling close into the airfield and I just start poppin their tops like gum from a foil wrapper.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Gman on May 03, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
Quote
The problem with checking "6" in RL is that most chairs we use are padded and resist swiveling your hips/butt. Jets tend to have a firm, non-compression seat which makes it easy to swivel hips/butt to enable better checking 6...of course it also depends on how tight you make your seat straps to the seat kit...too tight locks you in, too loose could cause problems in case of ejection. Gotta be Goldilocks and make it "just right" :)
You're forgetting the most important difference from a r/l cockpit to VR - peripheral vision. Pilots do not have to turn their bodies nearly as far in order to get their EYES on 6 o'clock, compared to where your head needs to be in VR for being able to see the same space behind the aircraft. Sitting in a hard chair, you can shift your hips/etc just a small amount, and be able to crank your neck/head to about 4 oclock, and your eyes can do the rest peripherally. Just watch some videos of pilots doing this, and their helmet/head is never, ever, pointed at 6 oclock.
The thing with VR is that peripheral vision can't be used to "cheat" the head position - you want to see 6 oclock in VR, you have to point your head pretty much closer to dead 6 in order to do so. IE putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Wraith_TMS on May 03, 2017, 07:23:55 PM
...snip... Just watch some videos of pilots doing this, and their helmet/head is never, ever, pointed at 6 oclock.
The thing with VR is that peripheral vision can't be used to "cheat" the head position - you want to see 6 oclock in VR, you have to point your head pretty much closer to dead 6 in order to do so. IE putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.
This well-known video seems to lend credence to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NEcBaxvbQE).
However, I do wonder if/to what extent hi-gee maneuvers impact or impede swiveling one's head/neck/torso much further than seen here? The pilots in the linked video appear to be pulling very hard gees while trying to keep eyes-on. Swiveling further likely directly correlates to G-load(?), but I have no first-hand experience on that. A video game environment obviously can't reproduce that pressure on a body, VR or not. Bottom line, I'm not sure what the video proves... but it gave me a chance to post air combat fun with neato jets. :aok :airplane: :old:
PS: combat starts around 2:30 mark
FWIW,
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Bizman on May 04, 2017, 01:36:00 AM
--- putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.
Wouldn't that be "easily" achieved by a wider screen inside the goggles in a similar manner that is used for the ultra-wide curved monitors? I understand that it would require a much better resolution which in turns adds a huge load to the video card. But theoretically...
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: terrydew on May 04, 2017, 05:35:35 AM
You're forgetting the most important difference from a r/l cockpit to VR - peripheral vision. Pilots do not have to turn their bodies nearly as far in order to get their EYES on 6 o'clock, compared to where your head needs to be in VR for being able to see the same space behind the aircraft. Sitting in a hard chair, you can shift your hips/etc just a small amount, and be able to crank your neck/head to about 4 oclock, and your eyes can do the rest peripherally. Just watch some videos of pilots doing this, and their helmet/head is never, ever, pointed at 6 oclock.
The thing with VR is that peripheral vision can't be used to "cheat" the head position - you want to see 6 oclock in VR, you have to point your head pretty much closer to dead 6 in order to do so. IE putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.
I agree that the eye movement and peripheral vision is the real difference between rl and vr. Question could AH have a view that would simulate the eye movement so that when looking in any direction the view would shift X degrees. Not sure what X would be but I would think there is data available. I think this would get us as close as current tech allows. When good eye tracking and wider fov get here it wouldn't be needed.
I agree that adding any accelerated movement would be a mistake and be a step back from rl which vr is attempting to simulate. The real problem is folks with vr feel they are at a disadvantage to the 2d folks which is probably true. As vr gets more popular which it will, maybe consider a vr only arena where none of the visual "tricks" work for anyone?
Terry
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: hitech on May 04, 2017, 09:35:40 AM
I agree that the eye movement and peripheral vision is the real difference between rl and vr. Question could AH have a view that would simulate the eye movement so that when looking in any direction the view would shift X degrees. Not sure what X would be but I would think there is data available. I think this would get us as close as current tech allows. When good eye tracking and wider fov get here it wouldn't be needed.
I agree that adding any accelerated movement would be a mistake and be a step back from rl which vr is attempting to simulate. The real problem is folks with vr feel they are at a disadvantage to the 2d folks which is probably true. As vr gets more popular which it will, maybe consider a vr only arena where none of the visual "tricks" work for anyone?
Terry
It may be possible to implement head relative view keys, I.E. left is left from your current head position,not left from the plane. But I am wondering if you request is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. I.E. you can already use view keys.
HiTech
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Kanth on May 04, 2017, 11:18:16 AM
I think that might be even more disorienting then using hat back relative to the plane. I use the hat all the time with no view orientation issues as it is.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Gman on May 04, 2017, 12:01:45 PM
I think curved VR display lenses would be the only real solution in terms of making VR perform closer to real life at least so far as simulation gaming goes and how views work. Right now if you use your peripheral vision inside a Rift/Vive you're just looking at black plastic housing, and that's the problem, as in reality you don't have plastic housing there, you're seeing another 30 or 45 degrees or more in terms of your head position, thanks to your eyes.
I doubt that we'll see larger/curved VR lenses anytime soon, for now the best we can get IMO is what HTC has done, incorporate a hat/kp view system along with VR in order to at least make checking 6 and other angles easier, since the VR headsets are limiting and make checking 6 actually more difficult than reality due to the peripheral thing and some other issues.
I too use the hat views in VR without any disorientation, mainly just the hat back/check 6, I'd say 99 percent of the time that's the only bit of "help" my view needs while playing in VR.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on May 04, 2017, 02:59:35 PM
When I use trackIR, I can look back, do something like a high yo-yo or clover leaf for ground attack and never lose control. Using VR, I often stall in the same type maneuver while looking back.
Now if I can keep the red in the front 180 degrees, the head movement is perfect and VR's advatange in hitting your target is a huge plus.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: 1stpar3 on May 04, 2017, 03:20:16 PM
For me, I didn't really like the "LOOK BACK" button. It worked just fine, just didn't like the dramatic view change. I do howerver use a "look back Right and LB Left". Why? When I get to as far as I can comfortably stand turning in my seat, say to the left, I hit my look back left button. I have it set on head placement just a bit further to left. Its not as far as I could see with look back only, but will cover to dead 6! Beyond that even, IF I center my head forward before button push. So I don't have a confused brain at the button push, its more of a just a bit further push/ when head turn is approaching my max comfort level. I don't even notice it when I hit hat switch now. Its a small jump as far as starting degree at button push to to right most stopping point of view after button push. Not sure how to describe it, hope you get what I am saying. Say for instance I can cover Front 0 degrees to left to 270 before I get a bit in comfortable, hit MY button LKBK Left. It puts me at just a few degrees past 250 is and covers to 170 or so depending how much further I twist from the 270 starting point of my headturn? For me it works just like I would have used in a TIR profile. It seems perfectly natural to me no nausea at all.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Mister Fork on May 04, 2017, 04:35:46 PM
I think curved VR display lenses would be the only real solution in terms of making VR perform closer to real life at least so far as simulation gaming goes and how views work. Right now if you use your peripheral vision inside a Rift/Vive you're just looking at black plastic housing, and that's the problem, as in reality you don't have plastic housing there, you're seeing another 30 or 45 degrees or more in terms of your head position, thanks to your eyes.
I doubt that we'll see larger/curved VR lenses anytime soon, for now the best we can get IMO is what HTC has done, incorporate a hat/kp view system along with VR in order to at least make checking 6 and other angles easier, since the VR headsets are limiting and make checking 6 actually more difficult than reality due to the peripheral thing and some other issues.
I too use the hat views in VR without any disorientation, mainly just the hat back/check 6, I'd say 99 percent of the time that's the only bit of "help" my view needs while playing in VR.
+1 - yep, I find that using the left and right views enough and in some planes the 6 view via HAT is useless (i.e. Corsair and Hellcat) where a side hat view and then I can look around left-up and behind from those views. No disorientation either.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: terrydew on May 05, 2017, 04:00:58 AM
It may be possible to implement head relative view keys, I.E. left is left from your current head position,not left from the plane. But I am wondering if you request is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. I.E. you can already use view keys.
HiTech
I agree that you can use the view keys but a relative shift I think would be much more natural. The view keys work but at least for me it takes brain time to readjust and understand what you are looking at. I was hoping that a smaller relative shift would reduce that effect. However it could be the same and we won't know unless tried?
Thanks for considering Terry
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on May 06, 2017, 06:05:52 AM
For me, I didn't really like the "LOOK BACK" button. It worked just fine, just didn't like the dramatic view change. I do howerver use a "look back Right and LB Left". Why? When I get to as far as I can comfortably stand turning in my seat, say to the left, I hit my look back left button. I have it set on head placement just a bit further to left. Its not as far as I could see with look back only, but will cover to dead 6! Beyond that even, IF I center my head forward before button push. So I don't have a confused brain at the button push, its more of a just a bit further push/ when head turn is approaching my max comfort level. I don't even notice it when I hit hat switch now. Its a small jump as far as starting degree at button push to to right most stopping point of view after button push. Not sure how to describe it, hope you get what I am saying. Say for instance I can cover Front 0 degrees to left to 270 before I get a bit in comfortable, hit MY button LKBK Left. It puts me at just a few degrees past 250 is and covers to 170 or so depending how much further I twist from the 270 starting point of my headturn? For me it works just like I would have used in a TIR profile. It seems perfectly natural to me no nausea at all.
I have been experimenting with a similar setup but use the "Look Left" instead of the "Look Back Left". It is hard to get the head position correct so you looking as far back to the 6 as you can but it does seem to smooth out the looking left with the VR then hitting the hat switch to "Look Left" to give you a good 6 view.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: N95KF on May 07, 2017, 10:50:35 AM
You lose peripheral vision when wearing goggles though, so just make believe you are wearing aviation goggles lol.
Who said WWII was easy and/or comfortable?? Just be glad you dont have to worry about freezing to death or losing oxygen from frozen drool.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: Randy1 on May 08, 2017, 03:50:17 PM
I am just about full game time in VR now. Things are getting better.
Dog fights are getting better but I still loose the red more than I would like.
All though my bombing objects is much improved my GV killing is still short of trackir. With trackir I could make a low pass, spot the gv hiding, do a high yo-yo without ever taking my eye off the gv location, then set up the drop. In VR I can hit the gv if I can find it but finding after the icon is gone is very hard.
Title: Re: VR Life without Trackir
Post by: 1stpar3 on May 08, 2017, 10:33:25 PM
that sir,is my biggest problem in VR! I love the depth the trees have! Even going over a blind drop off gives you that little drop you feel in your gut! Just cant shoot hardly anything! :mad: Its hard to see even tracers from Osti or wirb,let alone a tank round. Wish there was a way to quickly jump out of VR and into regular AH. Of coarse, Gving is a secondary pursuit :devil