Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 07, 2001, 10:06:00 AM
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MAG-33 will have to stand down tonight due to a target assigned that is too far for our aircraft to reach. Until we are assigned a secondary target, I'm recommending to my squad that we stand down.
(FYI: Did alot of Offline testing with fuel modifier at 1.5.)
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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As I said in the e-mail your target remains the same and we can adjust the fuel mod.
No shows can really foul things up for the rest of us.
If a squad ever does a "no show" I will remove them from the TOD.
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What can I say, they've assigned a target that is impossible to hit with the fuel modifier at 1.5. Until I get confirmation from Sabre on the fuel modifier, we stand down. Even then, if fuel modifier is at 1.0...we cannot carry bombs that distance and expect to make it home...its 550 miles round trip.
Bottom line: At 1.0 or 1.5, the mission objectives cannot be met. I've tested them offline. Now you threaten to throw my squad off the TOD because we made a decision that scoring 0 points is better than giving up XXXX points to the enemy in an impossible task thats been assigned to us?? Great TOD ya got going here.
:mad:
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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We'll swap sides and take it if need be.
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550 miles round trip? Mindanao map is only 250 miles on a side. That's some pretty serious map coverage if you've got 550 miles to go round trip. Not only that, but will 550 miles would barely fit in the scenario's time frame if you have to loiter at all.
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First – I don’t threaten. A squad that has less than 66% show up can lose their slot. It has been in the rules since we started this. It was a reminder. Call it what you like.
Second – If by error a squad was assigned an impossible target or were unable to fly back to base because the fuel mod was wrong we would not count them lost. The CM group has always been fair and reasonable. I am surprised you would think otherwise. If a C.O. took less than 100% fuel and drop tanks then it would be their own fault. Like I did to my squad in frame 3.
Third – If two of the CM’s were not out of town or dealing with real life issues and I was not picking up the slack I suppose this might not have happened. For that I am sorry. If you want to wait to hear from rojo that is up to you.
Forth – Your e-mail to me did not state that a fuel mod of 1.0 would not work. Also I read them out the door to work and did not have time to check them myself. Again I should not be the one to deal with these matters, but rojo and cobra. FYI even cobra can’t make it so Ozark is stepping in to set up the TOD.
Lastly if you want to throw out the baby with the bath water rip I will not stop you, but that would be short sighted and have consequences for you and your whole squad for months to come.
Your call.
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I've taken my prozac medication (Thks Ghosth!)
Issue has been resolved.
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Originally posted by Nifty:
550 miles round trip? Mindanao map is only 250 miles on a side.
On one edge its 250..think hypotenus.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
We'll swap sides and take it if need be.
Okay! your on. Bring a Mae West! ;)
Actually, spoke with Ghosth, he's resolving the error by the CM team. Thanks for cooperation Ghosth!
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Rip, why do you always go for the theatrical extreme right away? Wouldn't it have been more productive to notify us of the situation, and offer to work with us to find a remedy to the situation?
I can think of at least one potential solution to this problem, in additon to the fuel modifier. Perhaps we can consider that you're squad has rtb'd safely if it gets to grid x.x.x after hitting your target.
Anyway, I'm sure we can work out something that would be acceptable. We're not blaming you for the error in mission creation, it sounds like the CM in charge of setting the mission up made a mistake. But I'm disappointed that your first idea would be to threaten to not show up. That isn't going to help your squad or the rest of the people out at all.
Daddog, call me at home this afternoon if you get the chance.
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I did banana, yesterday, nothing resolved as this morning, up to about 1/2 hour ago. Makes for a mighty short time for my planning, but we'll get by, thks for your concern :rolleyes:
I might add, it wasn't a threat, it was basically saying "Look, no ones resolved this, they are asking to do a suicidal mission. We have no other choice than to stand down, since I wouldn't be able to ask folks to "Do this, though you will not succeed".
You had no idea how many emails went back and forth before you posted, did you?
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
On one edge its 250..think hypotenus.
I did. ;) A21 to A60 is about 200mi east and 125mi north. that's 250mi on a straight line. If that's somewhat along the lines of your mission plan... OUCH... you'd only be flying over 160 miles of enemy territory. One way. :p
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Play nice boys!!!
Not to dogpile on Rip here, I just have technical questions:
Rip are you sure on those fuel figures? 1.0 multiplier is real life fuel consumption, so all the Allied planes in this one should be able to go 1000+ miles on internal fuel. Even with bombs, you shouldn't have trouble with 550 miles.
Did you try reducing throttle? Best cruise should be in the neighborhood of 250 mph. Remember RPM reductions in AH just kill your range.
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Rip, the success of this TOD(and all special events) depends upon the cooperation between the CM's and the players.
Let's get one thing straight: We are not in your service. You have no right to demand anything from the CM's. We are not employees of HTC so you can just stop with the digruntled customer routine. You are biting the hand that feeds you, I would have thought that you were smart enough to know that. Your lack of patience in getting this situation resolved has pissed off the person who spent virtually his whole summer getting this TOD off the ground(daddog), and I'm doing everything I can to prevent him from washing his hands of the whole TOD.
Every time you go off on the CM's and assume the worst you are helping to destroy what we're trying to build for the community.
Anytime you want to get off your high horse and join the CM team just let me know. You should walk a mile or two in our shoes before you go spouting off about how we're trying to screw you.
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Excuse me banana? Where did I demand? Come again sir? Lets take it private banana, the rest of the guys don't want to hear what I have for a reply.
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banana you have mail.
Funked, I spend a min. of 2 hours every week preparing for these things. With 1.0 modifier it puts me 50 miles short of my landing area, considering it to be within 40 miles closer of where it was to begin with. Yes, with manifold settings lowered, no wep, lower ceiling of operation, straight line approach over hostile enemy area, I can just *barely* squeak out the mission parameters...but there lies the problem. There is absolutley no room for error outside the parameters mentioned above. Keep in mind that changing the fuel modifer for the entire arena is NOT what I call a good decision to abate to a single squad that has a fuel problem..
Nifty, your clueless, so I won't even respond to you.
Anyway, problems been resolved..move along (that includes you banana) ;)
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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I see what you have is a "Historical Mission" code named "DO-LITTLE".
What would have happend if Doolittle said....my boys are standing down? I believe he would have been labelled and his career would not have gone very far.
The Doolittle raid was "voluntary" and I think you should post to your boys this is a voluntary mission in which we have 10% chance of making it home, but 100% chance of completeing our objectives. We will bail after fuel is expended and meet some Phillipine Rebels who will take us to a redezvous point with the USS Swordfish off the coast on Mindanao.
Take a photo of all the guys that bailed and I'm sure the CM guys will cosider full points to MAG 33.
On the other hand....I think you've lost the edge and MAG 33 should look for a new C.O. :) <j/k>
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Why was I the only one who even considered moveing the CV closer?
Ripsnort slap yourself silly for the tone you've been useing to the CM's.
Daddog I can't believe you lost your cool that easy.
banana, Sir, Requesting permision for Ozark & I to deal with this matter as we see fit SIR!
(Ozark is setup CM, he's asked for my assistance)
Daddog is correct however in that threatening a no show is NOT the way to deal with an issue.
Last, Ripsnort, expect to use fuel conservation methods in order to fulfill your mission & RTB safely. It WILL be possible, it WON'T neccessarily be easy or convenient. You may not be able to climb as high as you'd like.
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
Why was I the only one who even considered moveing the CV closer?
You were not, but I was trying to be a nice guy yesterday and let the CM make this decision, and left the door wide open for the obvious answer...SORRY FOR EVEN diddlyING BRINGING IT UP! I WILL FLY THE diddlyING MISSION AS ORDERED AND RUN OUT OF GAS.!
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Rip, I've been trying to stay out of this, but in a tour of duty I would certainly hope some of the missions are difficult if not impossible.
We had a blast trying to CAP a CV over 200 miles from our launch point, trying to make do by refueling and getting bombed on the carrier deck, then the rest trying to make it back having 4 splashdown short of the coast and 1 barely ditch on land. Never even had the opportunity to fire shots.
The precedent to walk out if you don't like the missions is a very bad one, and makes the old planeset whines pale in comparison. For some reason I keep getting this image of Dolittle walking out of what anyone would agree was an impossible mission....
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So, in short fashion, here is lessons learned:
Never point out a flaw in the missions assigned to you or you'll be labeled the bad guy by the Head CM. Just fly the mission, and don't ask questions.
See ya guys, enjoy TOD 2 :mad: :mad: :mad:
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No, the lesson is try to get it settled without publicly threatening to walk out, and if you don't get it settled swallow your pride and fly it anyway.
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Ripsnort,
As your CO for this evening I am politely asking you to not go AWOL on us tonight. It sets a negative precident and puts us at risk in the series. If you are angry, don't take it our on the rest of your team. We've all worked towards this frame's success and need you and your mates.
Besides, I've informed both Mac and Ike and if you don't show-up they're sending over Patton in a C-47 to squeak slap you.
Hening
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Nothing wrong with pointing out mistakes, Rip. CMs are fallible. Nobody here thinks you screwed up because you questioned the mission.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
You were not, but I was trying to be a nice guy yesterday and let the CM make this decision, and left the door wide open for the obvious answer...SORRY FOR EVEN diddlyING BRINGING IT UP! I WILL FLY THE diddlyING MISSION AS ORDERED AND RUN OUT OF GAS.!
Ummm...you forgot to say "Sir!" at the end there Rip. ;)
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Something seems amiss with the Hellcats legs Range is listed as 1130 miles internal, combat radius of 350 miles with bombs and rockets on internal fuel. Check this linkHellcat (http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f6f-5.pdf)
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MEOOOOOOWWW MEOOOOOOWWW HISSS HISSS :p
I quote from a famous guy "shut your hole,strap in,and take it out on the bad guys" famous guy SALLY OF THE FAT DRUNK BASTARDS :D
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Would everybody just relax? I see people posting things they are obviously going to regret. It's just a game.
Rip, if you can't do your mission as briefed, hit a target of opportunity. In your AAR point out that the only way to hit your assigned target was to ditch. You realized you were going to be bingo well before the target and you hit an alternate target so that you would not lose all of your aircraft. Any rational chain of command would not crap on you for saving your airplanes and would commend you for quick thinking and managing to still inflict damage on the bad guys. If the target was out of range then it would be simple for the CMs to verify that (given sufficient time) with a test flight, and they could then give you proper credit for your work. If at that time they do not respond properly THEN you have a beef.
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Well said funked.
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Pointing out a fault with a mission as assigned is NEVER a problem.
Loseing your cool and insulting CM's ALWAYS is and ALWAYS will be a problem.
Rip once I said I was on it that should have been the END of this thread.
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Rip, what Fatty said, I couldn't have said it better. You pointed out something that was wrong, if the CMs didn't or weren't able to fix it by frame start, take your lumps and fly the damned mission anyway. Then email them your film of the evening if you were right. This event depends on all squads doing their best to show up and pulling your whole squad out of the night just because the mission doesn't suit you is a real amazinhunk thing to do to the rest of the squads participating and the CMs who do put a lot of work into this.
Sorry if that sounds harsh man, but that's just how I see it...regardless of what communications you've had with the CMs about this. Also I doubt anyone, including me, wants to see you quit flying the TOD. You'll be missed if you do.
SOB
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Ghost:"Loseing your cool and insulting CM's ALWAYS is and ALWAYS will be a problem."
Originally posted by banana:
Rip, why do you always go for the theatrical extreme right away?
Who insulted who ghost?
Ghost:Rip once I said I was on it that should have been the END of this thread.
Couldn't agree more. The problem was posted as resolve, til the Butt-in-ski came along.
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i understand Rip not wanting to fly the mission, after all this is TOD, our pleasure comes from landing. On the other hand, my KI group was assigned to CAP SE, guess what, after 1h10 of circling with no eni inseight, we took on our own to try to move to a battle area.
We arrived at P55 just in time to engage 3 Corsairs runing home.
Ever been in the military Ripsnort? I was and trust me, sometimes orders didn't really made sense. In the comandoes, "thinking was already disobeing", and some missions just call for "do it and shut up, because you don't have all the cards in hand, you don't see the big picture". But like funked said, if it's a suicide mission, nobody ever got mad at me for saving assets and diverting from my mission. (I was an Lt, so I was the one who had to explain why I took initiatives, explain to the guys on the top, and explain to my platoon too).
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From: Nelson, Brian G
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:52 AM
> > To: 10BEARS; AH1G; BLITZ; Blueice; CAVALEAR; CraigUS; F4UDOA; GIJeff;
> > GUNSLAYER; JAYBONE; Mickey; MOX; MRPLUTO; OCTAVIUS; PHANTOM4; RANGERBOB;
> > RIPSNORT; SWOOPGB; WARCHILD; ZIPPATUH
> > Subject: Okay need advice before I get REALLY angry
> >
> > First, the task of taking a F6F hellcat HEAVY for Hangars at A33 from a CV
> > launched in 6.6 grid of the Mindano map with 1.5 modifier fuel is
> > impossible, the trip is 550 miles RT. I did some off line testing and
> > used the following parameters:
> >
> > F6F 100% fuel, 2X1000 lb. bombs
> > Fuel Modifier at 1.5 (TOD modifier)
> > Launched from CV at 6.6.9 (per orders)
> > Destination was A33.
> > Miles was 550 round trip.
> >
> > Results:
> > 1/3 fuel left in Main tanks after climbing out to 25,000 feet once I got
> > to target. No fuel for return trip. Repeated scenario at fuel modifier
> > at 1.0. Result was falling short of RTB by 50 miles and that was without
> > using any WEP.
> >
> > Even with a single DT, and at 1.0 modifier, we cannot fulfill our mission
> > goals, that means carrying no bombs, our mission goal is to bomb the
> > hangars.
> >
> > Now, read this thread:
> > http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t)
> > =000072
> >
> >
> > Gentlemen, I want us to stand down because the CM's cannot pull their
> > heads out of their bellybutton long enough to see that they are assigning a target
> > that is impossible to do.
> >
> > Feedback requested.
> > Brian G. Nelson
> >
> >
> >
Hmmm...indeed, "who insulted whom?"
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: banana ]
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As an aside, with a fuel multiplier, climbing to 25k is going to impair your range seriously, particularly if you're lifting bombs to that altitude. Sometimes CMs look to design things so that it's not Alt-Monkey City. :D
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Everything aside, it doesn't seem right (IMO) to post someone's private work contact information...especially with the number of hosers we've seen around in recent months...
-Firecat
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REMOVE THAT THREAD RIGHT NOW banana. YOU HAVE NO diddlyING RIGHT TO TAKE AN INTERNAL EMAIL AND BLAST IT OUT IN PUBLIC... THAT TEXT HAS PERSONAL CONTACT INFO...
REMOVE IT
sweet jesus man... you'd post contact info just to prove your more right.. WAKE UP and edit the post.