Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Latrobe on December 13, 2014, 11:33:12 AM
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Thinking about upgrading my PC a bit but I was wondering what I should upgrade. Here's my current specs:
Win 7 Pro 64-bit
1TB Hard Drive
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Intel i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz
600 Watt PSU
24GB RAM (x2 8GB and x2 4GB I believe)
MSI MS-7673 P67A-C43 (B3) Motherboard
I know a little about computers and I think the weakest part of my PC at this point is my Processor, though I don't know a thing about motherboards so I don't know how good my motherboard is. Should I look into a new processor? And if I do should I look for an i7? or are i5's still pretty good? Or should I look into a new motherboard? And if I do what should I know about getting a new motherboard?
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The need of upgrade depends much on what you're using it for. For AH I'd wait. There's been speculations that the next version may rely more on the video card than the current version, although no one can exactly tell. Not even HiTech himself, nor Skuzzy, for that matter.
For other uses, well, that's a very good computer for almost any use. There's been studies made, giving the result that a regular user wouldn't notice less than a 20% rise in processor effectivity. Someone once told me that roughly doubling the power would be the only viable solution. I believe such an upgrade would be either impossible or above your budget. Or both. You're on the line where the prices of single frames per second rise exponentially.
If you really want to give yourself a christmas present inside your computer, a better video card might give you the best bang for the buck. There's been talk about the highest end nVidia cards soon being available for a lowered price. Something like the GTX970 would keep your gaming experience on a high level for a long time in the price range of $350.
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Thinking about upgrading my PC a bit but I was wondering what I should upgrade. Here's my current specs:
Win 7 Pro 64-bit
1TB Hard Drive
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Intel i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz
600 Watt PSU
24GB RAM (x2 8GB and x2 4GB I believe)
MSI MS-7673 P67A-C43 (B3) Motherboard
I know a little about computers and I think the weakest part of my PC at this point is my Processor, though I don't know a thing about motherboards so I don't know how good my motherboard is. Should I look into a new processor? And if I do should I look for an i7? or are i5's still pretty good? Or should I look into a new motherboard? And if I do what should I know about getting a new motherboard?
You have a K processor so the best thing you can do is overclock the heck out of it. You can get marginal improvement by upgrading the cpu and motherboard but bad value for dollar. If I were you I would push the i5 as far as it goes and maybe invest to a quality CPU cooler before trying it. You won't get a cheaper upgrade than that. Your motherboard even came with 1 button push OC Genie overclocking - you're wasting your money on a K cpu if you don't overclock it!
Also your graphics card is on the weak side for current games (not AH).
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I got the same processor but with a better video card. big difference.
semp
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Thats about my system tho I have an i7 and 12 gigs Ram "big deal right". I honestly dont feel the need to upgrade nor do I think you should either. The cheapest and quickest thing you can do is buy a better vid card. Tho the 760 will easily handle anything on the market and I'd bet I wouldn't notice nothing different over my 780.
I cant help but wonder why you spent so much $$ on RAM? 24 gigs of RAM is an awful lot of Ram.
Keep it another year unless your a well heeled oil Sheik with your own Gulf Stream and Harem of naked co-eds.
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Hi Latrobe,
I looked up your mobo specs & outside of the small & really non-issue of the PCI-E lanes being PCI-E 2.x spec (since you're using a single vid card), you got a good setup.
As also mentioned you got a good CPU that can OC very well (if OC'ing is something you would consider) & get some extra performance there w/o a CPU upgrade. Your socket is an 1156 socket which allows you to a wide range of CPU upgrade possibilities but when I checked the mobo BIOS's available for your mobo on MSI's website none gave any hints at any issues between a SB, IB or Haswell vers Intel socket 1156 I3, I5 or I7 CPU working so this may be a trial & see endeavor so you may want to weigh this out if your really considering a CPU upgrade (I'm assuming that your current CPU is a SB CPU). Currently I couldn't find any listed roadblocks that would limit your choices here so the sky looks to be the limit.................
The vid card is a place where you could gain some creditable performance & IMHO the GTX 970 vid card is the 1 to use on this platform (as already been mentioned & assuming from the current GTX 760 card you may prefer Nvidia). If this were my platform I would do this...................
The 1 other area that I see but not enough info is given that some more performance can be squeeked from is your mem modules.....not talking bout their capacity but their frequency or speed. Your mobo specs out to accept mem frequencies up to 2133Hz. You didn't give what the current mem frequency of your mem is just the capacity. If you were to check the white papers on the I5 2500K CPU the mem speed specs are listed at 1066/1333 but from my experience they can usually work with mem approx 267Hz faster than the max spec....over this I don't know. I haven't found anything that says that they won't work with much faster mem so the limit should be what your mobo/chipset can support which is 2133Hz.
Now the mobo specs will say that this speed is attainable w/ OC. That was the case at the time of manufacture as there were no DC sets of matched 2133Hz mem kits available so you had to OC the 1333/1600/1866Hz sets to get there. This is not the case anymore as the matched DC 2133Hz mem kits are available so the BIOS should read the mem SPD & use it at the rated speed as long as the mobo supports the speed range.
In all you got a good set up that should run most apps/games very well but if you want to upgrade it then I say go for it as you can do some things w/ the mobo/CPU combo you have already.
Hope this helps.................
:salute
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The price/performance return for upgrading ram speed is horrible. You'll pay 200-300 bucks to get 0.5 -1% increase in speed if even that. Not advisable.
Overclock + new graphics card is your most sensible upgrade path.
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If you want to upgrade your graphics card first have a look at your PSU - not every PSU with a 600W label is really able to deliver these 600W. Especially super-cheap "600W" PSU have often delivered just 50% of this before shutting down or quitting with a bang.
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Overclock the CPU and get a 970.
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Thanks for the advice guys! Looks like a new video card is what I'll start looking at and I'll have to read up on how to overclock. I've always heard about overclocking but I never put in any time to figure out how to do it.
I cant help but wonder why you spent so much $$ on RAM? 24 gigs of RAM is an awful lot of Ram.
I just had some extra cash on hand and wanted to get something new for my PC. I thought "Why the heck not?" and just bought 2 8 GB sticks.
As for what my memory frequency is at it's set to 665.1 MHz. Is this an ok speed? Or should I look to increase that if I want to squeak a little more performance out of them?
I was also checking out the core speed for my CPU while I was at it and it appears to be running around 3500 MHz.
Also, since my PC is apparently good enough for now (just need to overclock and get new vid card) maybe I should look into a 120 Hz monitor? I've always wanted to play games in 120 FPS :) Who makes good 120 Hz Monitors?
And 1 more thing. I keep hearing about liquid cooling. How easy is that? Do you have to monitor anything or is it just set it up and let it go?
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Your memory frequence is ok for DDR3-1333. As has been said, your motherboard supports faster memory. Check your memory modules and only use the fastest because the motherboard will automatically use settings suitable for the slowest memory installed. Here's a chart for DDR3 speeds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM#JEDEC_standard_modules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM#JEDEC_standard_modules).
As a rule of thumb, if your system is short of memory, quantity will outperform speed. If your memory amount is sufficient, speed rating will affect performance. 8 GB is sufficient for Windows 7 for most tasks, 16 GB is good for most memory intensive tasks like video editing. If you really needed more, you'd be a professional using dedicated programs whose requirements you'd be familiar with.
Your CPU core speed is apparently automatically a little overclocked. Intel turbo boost most likely: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/turbo-boost/turbo-boost-technology.html (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/turbo-boost/turbo-boost-technology.html).
Can't recommend any monitors, but as for frequency I've read people here say that 144 Hz is the thing to look for.
There's pros and cons for liquid cooling. If you think about noise, both air and liquid cooling require some fans, the design of which determines the noise level. Also bear in mind your case can't be liquid cooled, only certain components. Your motherboard settings allow you to either get a warning or shutdown your computer in case of a fan failure, whereas a liquid cooler doesn't have any safety system for leaks. I suppose in very hot surroundings you might be able to cool your CPU and video card better with an external liquid cooler system. As you can figure, those can be a pain to transport to lan parties. Not to mention the cleaning lady might pull the connecting hose off with her mop...
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Most non-home made liquid coolers are really not any quieter than the quality air coolers are. Some don't even cool that well for the price.
I would recommend getting a Noctua NH14 for example and then use the built in automatic overclocking tool supplied with your motherboard. Usually they give pretty good results. Sometimes they raise the voltage of your CPU unnecessarily high though so this is something you may want to look at. At the MINIMUM get a good cooler before overclocking.
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I was wondering about liquid cooling and how it matches up to fan cooling, if it cools better than a fan or not. I don't care about noise so long as my PC performs like a beast and stays cool doing it :) . My room is in the basement and it never gets over 68 degrees (Fahrenheit). I think I do need a good fan as I only have 1 in my PC at the moment.
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68 fahrenheit is 20 celsius which is a cool atmosphere for a home computer. I'd say you wouldn't benefit from liquid cooling. A couple of large (120 mm) slow rotating (sub 1000 rpm) fans placed cleverly should keep your case temperature below 100 fahrenheit or 38 celsius. Slowly rotating large fans don't even add any noise although they move huge amounts of air.
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I was wondering about liquid cooling and how it matches up to fan cooling, if it cools better than a fan or not. I don't care about noise so long as my PC performs like a beast and stays cool doing it :) . My room is in the basement and it never gets over 68 degrees (Fahrenheit). I think I do need a good fan as I only have 1 in my PC at the moment.
One case fan? In normal room temperature you don't need a huge amount of fans. The most important thing is that the air can move inside and around your case freely. Hot air will naturally escape up and out of the box even if you have no case fans at all. But if you keep your computer in a corner or in a closet that may severely hinder the cooling.
Trust me when I say that noise matters. You really don't want to listen to a hoover running at full blast next to your ears when you're playing or surfing. Some of the computer coolers give an ear breaking whirring noise. As a general rule the bigger fan and slower rpm you get the easier it tends to be on your ears. I once had a computer case with a 15" fan on the side. The fan moved very slowly and silently but pushed big CFM through the case.
Keep in mind that if you choose liquid cooling you'll have to rethink your case cooling also. With a liquid cooler you no longer have a CPU fan moving air to ram sticks, motherboard power regulators etc. stuff which are designed around the CPU.
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Playing Planetside 2 I kept checking the CPU temps and they seem to be hovering around 90 (celsius). GPU is sitting around 70 though. I think getting a good fan like you say will help bring that down considerably.
This is the Case I have: http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Black-Edition-VL80001W2Z-Gaming/dp/B002Q2M8KK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1418558965&sr=8-2&keywords=case+pc+thermaltake
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Playing Planetside 2 I kept checking the CPU temps and they seem to be hovering around 90 (celsius). GPU is sitting around 70 though. I think getting a good fan like you say will help bring that down considerably.
This is the Case I have: http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Black-Edition-VL80001W2Z-Gaming/dp/B002Q2M8KK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1418558965&sr=8-2&keywords=case+pc+thermaltake
90 celsius is way too high for a CPU. It would be normal for a GPU. Are you sure you didn't mix the temperatures? In any case if you want to invest, invest to a quality CPU cooler like the Noctua. Read some reviews and study installation guides.
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Looks like a nice well breathing case! I suppose you have one fan in the rear like the picture shows? Add one 120mm on the top and another in the front. Both upper fans should blow out, the front one in. Keep the front grille dust free, ensure there's enough space around the case - the so called computer desks with a closed door cabinet for the case are the worst thing you can think of! I also suppose that the air intake for the power supply is in the bottom, in which case you might like to add height to the feet. Something like door bumpers will do the trick, leaving 1" or more space beneath the case. If your video card still runs hot, adding one fan on the side blowing in will help.
As for noise level, decibels don't multiply by the amount of fans. If you start with, say, one 20 dB fan, two will make about 22 dB and three about 24 dB. For more exact calculations, decibels go in a logarithmic scale. Below 20 dB is hard to tell from the overall hum.
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Actually now that I'm thinking if you really run a non overclocked i5 cpu with the stock cooler, 90 degrees temperature indicates that you have a major problem with your cooler.
Either the fan is not blowing, it's real dirty or you didn't apply heat paste properly during installation. Or the mixture of all. Your CPU should not run that hot, if it gets that hot the cpu might start throttling, which means your cpu speed is lowered to reduce the generated heat. Overheating cpu will make your computer feel sluggish and powerless even though you have just fine hardware. It's just not cooled properly.
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If upgrading CPU fan, keep in mind that some fans will simply clip on the motherboard, while others will require replacing the motherboard backing plate.
I prefer the fans that don't require mother board removal to replace backing plate simply because of the risk involved with removing the motherboard.
Take your time researching - look at customer reviews, consider clearance issues with case and nearby components carefully, and the fan/case orientation for airflow.
Plus all the other fine suggestions in this thread. Good Luck :salute
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I knew 90 is on the hot side of things. Not sure why it runs that hot. I have cleaned it recently but maybe some dust already built back up? Will be cleaning it again just to be sure. That Noctua fan looked nice! I'm certainly going to be buying that :)
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I knew 90 is on the hot side of things. Not sure why it runs that hot. I have cleaned it recently but maybe some dust already built back up? Will be cleaning it again just to be sure. That Noctua fan looked nice! I'm certainly going to be buying that :)
90C is very hot. For comparison, my i5-2500k is overclocked to 4.0GHz, and my temps rarely go above 54C.
What CPU cooler are you using? Even the stock cooler should keep it cooler than 90C, especially without any overclocking. Did you already try cleaning the thermal paste, applying a new dab, and reseating the cooler?
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Just the stock fan for cooling. I'll be doing some detailed cleaning tomorrow as I don't have any air cans around the house right now. I'll check the thermal paste when I do that.
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Playing Planetside 2 I kept checking the CPU temps and they seem to be hovering around 90 (celsius). GPU is sitting around 70 though. I think getting a good fan like you say will help bring that down considerably.
This is the Case I have: http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Black-Edition-VL80001W2Z-Gaming/dp/B002Q2M8KK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1418558965&sr=8-2&keywords=case+pc+thermaltake
1. Upgrade to something this, before looking at a Graphics Card update. I have it on my i7 system and love it. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181031&cm_re=Corsair_H-_-35-181-031-_-Product (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181031&cm_re=Corsair_H-_-35-181-031-_-Product) You would put this where your rear fan currently is.
2. I took it a step further as those fans are loud. I replaced them with these PWM fans: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835494015&cm_re=LEPA-_-35-494-015-_-Product (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835494015&cm_re=LEPA-_-35-494-015-_-Product) They move more air and do not sound like a wind tunnel fan.
You should see a substantial drop in CPU temperatures after doing #1. #2 is optional, but I wiggled out a few degrees with the fan upgrade.
See where you stand and then look at #3. Upgrading to a 970. I am a fanboi of only one PC related company and that is EVGA. Their RMA process is painless and their products exude quality.
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What brand/model is your "600W" power supply?
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What brand/model is your "600W" power supply?
PSU is a diablotek DA series
model ID: PSDA600
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PSU is a diablotek DA series
model ID: PSDA600
I would upgrade to a Seasonic or Corsair (maybe a 700-750W for better future proofing and overhead). Apparently some of their PSU models haven't even gone through the UL in the past, which is not a good sign.
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So I opened the case this morning and gave it a real good cleaning and I guess there was some dust build up since the temp came down a little but it's still sitting around 80 as I play Planetside 2.
Just sitting here listening to music on YouTube and it's hovering around 55.
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So I opened the case this morning and gave it a real good cleaning and I guess there was some dust build up since the temp came down a little but it's still sitting around 80 as I play Planetside 2.
Just sitting here listening to music on YouTube and it's hovering around 55.
Place the order for the Noctua today, you won't regret it. You might burn out your CPU prematurely with that current cooler.
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The need of upgrade depends much on what you're using it for. For AH I'd wait. There's been speculations that the next version may rely more on the video card than the current version, although no one can exactly tell. Not even HiTech himself, nor Skuzzy, for that matter.<snip>
Oh no, the next version of Aces High WILL use more of the video card. The entire graphics engine may run on the video card. How much of a load there will be is what we do not know yet. It is safe to say, if you want a chance to run with all the bells and whistles, I would say a video card with 2GB of dedicated video RAM, or more, will be needed.
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Oh no, the next version of Aces High WILL use more of the video card. The entire graphics engine may run on the video card. How much of a load there will be is what we do not know yet. It is safe to say, if you want a chance to run with all the bells and whistles, I would say a video card with 2GB of dedicated video RAM, or more, will be needed.
Oh yes, I'll have to formulate my sentences better in the future, because that was exactly what I was trying to say. Outsmarted myself again with too complicated sentences! Hadn't they tried to build the Tower of Babel, we'd be talking the same language (Genesis 11:6). :salute
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We're just two nations separated by uncommon language :lol
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I run a coolermaster h80 watercooler on my i5-2500k. My temps are usually under 40C. As I type they are at 37C. On very rare occasions (heavy load) it will get to 65-70C (note: it will get hotter running prime95 but since I don't do anything that demends load on cpu like prime95 it's fine.) My i5 is clocked at 4.6Ghz and has been for several years now.
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PSU is a diablotek DA series
model ID: PSDA600
There was I reason I asked for the brand and model of your PSU - that's a very cheap PSU with just 480W (claimed) on the 12V rail. Judging from multiple test of similar low-end high-watt PSU even these 480W will hardly ever be delivered.
I would never ever connect an expensive new VGA card to this BS power supply. You don't need 700-750W if you get a quality PSU that's actually able to deliver 600W.
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As others have said, save the $ on the CPU and upgrade your GPU/cooler and so on. RAM won't get you a whole lot of gaming performance either, as stated already too.
Anandtech did a test recently, I linked it in another thread and will have to go back and find it. The took every CPU from the i5 2500k (your CPU Latrobe incidentally) right up to the fastest one a gamer would buy, newer socket 2011/3 5930k, about a dozen CPUs in the middle, from 4770k on up to 4790k, and so on. They used a 780ti (fast card 6 months ago when they did the test, not the fastest, but up there). The difference between CPUs in terms of gaming performance with the top 10 games they tested was negligible. We're talking 15% as an absolute MAX, and most were only single digits, from "slowest" cpu to "fastest".
It's very much a GPU world out there in terms of gaming performance, based on that, and other similar articles, and experiences. Based on this, putting your $ if you're limited on what you can spend on upgrading into the GPU instead of any CPU upgrades is probably for the best. IMO the best thing you could do if you can't build a "new" system is keep what you have, fix that cooling issue, and put a 970 card into it. You could probably do this for under 350$ if you look around (coolers aren't that expensive). I doubt your AH, or most any other game performance, would be that much "less" than the majority of newer gaming PCs recently built.
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For the sake of comparison. We are, currently, targeting the NVidia 9800GTX video card, as the low end card (all graphic options at minimums) for the next version of Aces High. You can use that for a relative comparison at some sites.
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. I'll certainly be getting a nice new fan (Noctua probably, that looks nice!) to sort the cooling issue out first before I even think about doing anything else like overclocking. That 970 card would be a very nice addition to my PC and I'll be looking to get that ASAP :)
I'll have to look into getting a new PSU as well it seems, any recommendations on a good one for as cheap as possible?
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Seasonic has a very good reputation. They design and build their own products unlike many others. How about this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151096 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151096)?
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I'll shout out for a Seasonic PSU. I have an 800 watt model with no issues
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Seasonic has a very good reputation. They design and build their own products unlike many others. How about this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151096 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151096)?
That looks nice! Think I might have to buy that :)
:salute :cheers:
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After reading Skuzzy's posts on the subject in here, I have Seasonic PSU, too. (see build spec link in sig)
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For the sake of comparison. We are, currently, targeting the NVidia 9800GTX video card, as the low end card (all graphic options at minimums) for the next version of Aces High. You can use that for a relative comparison at some sites.
Skuzzy, how are we supposed to keep speculating and giving incorrect assumptions if you keep posting things like this?!!?!? :mad:
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Skuzzy, how are we supposed to keep speculating and giving incorrect assumptions if you keep posting things like this?!!?!? :mad:
We have been saying the 9800GTX was our baseline since we started the update work.
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So I finally replaced the thermal paste (it was completely shot as suspected) and the CPU's now running at 50-55 (Peaking at 60) while I'm playing Planetside 2. Once I get the Noctua fan I'm sure that'll come down some more, but I'm quite happy with a 40 degree drop :).
Going to start looking into overclocking now. How do I go about overclocking the i5 2500-K? How high can I push it without breaking anything?
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So I finally replaced the thermal paste (it was completely shot as suspected) and the CPU's now running at 50-55 (Peaking at 60) while I'm playing Planetside 2. Once I get the Noctua fan I'm sure that'll come down some more, but I'm quite happy with a 40 degree drop :).
Going to start looking into overclocking now. How do I go about overclocking the i5 2500-K? How high can I push it without breaking anything?
Overclocking should be done in small steps, testing in between. You know the clock rate comes from bus x multiplier? If you raise the multiplier leaving the bus as is, the temperatures would go up more than if you lower the multiplier and raise the bus instead. Getting a balance between the two is what you're aiming for. Modern motherboards should not be able to boot if the settings are too far off, so you should be relatively safe. After a couple of failing boots the motherboard should drop to fail safe settings, allowing you to try again.
Look for advice in overclocking boards, there's plenty of them. Also remember that each processor is a unique item, their overclocking capabilities vary.
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So I finally replaced the thermal paste (it was completely shot as suspected) and the CPU's now running at 50-55 (Peaking at 60) while I'm playing Planetside 2. Once I get the Noctua fan I'm sure that'll come down some more, but I'm quite happy with a 40 degree drop :).
Going to start looking into overclocking now. How do I go about overclocking the i5 2500-K? How high can I push it without breaking anything?
Glad to hear that it was the paste. :)
OCing is simple, but it depends on your setup.
Search Google for "overclock i5 2500k msi p67a-c43" and you'll find a plethora of results.
https://www.google.com/search?q=MSI+MS-7673+P67A-C43#q=overclock%20i5%202500k%20msi%20p67a-c43
FWIW, I've been running my i5-2500k at 4GHz since April, 2012. On air, it only hits 55C, regardless of playing AH2 or working in Photoshop or Lightroom.
So, 3.8GHz to 4GHz shouldn't be difficult for you, and relatively safe as far as OCing goes.
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Here is my OC on my i5-2500k. Cooled with an H80 on low setting:
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag49/PewterC5/SS1_zps9331f0a6.jpg~original)
I have run this setup for the last several years without any issues what so ever.
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Thanks for all the advice everyone! Got my new vid card today and my new fan. Good lord they are nice! CPU is barely peaking over 40 degrees, GPU is at 40-50, playing games on max settings at 60FPS! Got my CPU slightly overclocked at 3.8 now. Going to be increasing that slowly as I mess with some other settings to get everything just the way I like.
Hope you all have a Merry Christmas as well! :aok :cheers: :salute
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Thanks for all the advice everyone! Got my new vid card today and my new fan. Good lord they are nice! CPU is barely peaking over 40 degrees, GPU is at 40-50, playing games on max settings at 60FPS! Got my CPU slightly overclocked at 3.8 now. Going to be increasing that slowly as I mess with some other settings to get everything just the way I like.
Hope you all have a Merry Christmas as well! :aok :cheers: :salute
Glad to hear you had success! If you already get 60 fps steady performance, stop the overclock there. If you go higher there will be a stage sooner or later where you start to get problems and as long as you have that 60hz cap you're not going to see any visible improvement.
So smartest is to avoid the problems alltogether and push the machine higher when you possibly get a 144hz screen (if it's necessary even then).