Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Blammo on January 28, 2008, 03:17:53 PM
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I just got my issue of Air & Space. It has a great picture of a Spit V on the cover, but it looks like it has 4 20 mm cannons in it. Was there such a version and, if so, how much use did it see? Also, what was the ammo load, performance, etc like on this bird? Was it comparable to the Spit V we have in game?
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hehe ... the "worms are now making their way out of the can".
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Oh, Daniel? Where art thou?
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Spitfire Mk VC with 4x20mm's
See the "More Spitfires" thread in the Wishlist Forum.
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Information I have says that the last production models of the mark V spitfire were given a four cannon config.
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OK lets do this one more time :)
The restored Spit on the cover of the magazine is representative of the planes that embarked on the USS Wasp for the trip to Malta. Once on Malta they removed two of the cannon. They did NOT fly combat with 4 cannons.
The only squadron I've ever found that operated 4 cannon Spitfire Vc were 2 SAAF in Italy in the ground attack role. Those Spit Vc also had the big tropical filter which really messed up performance. Throw in the weight of the 4 cannons and it was not a dog fighter. We DON'T need one in AH :)
The only photos I've ever found of the 4 cannon 2 Squadron Spit Vcs
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4CannonSpits-1.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4CannonSpitVc-1.jpg)
The Spitfire 21 was the last WW2 combat Spit. It had a completely redesigned wing with 4 cannon. It served with 91 Squadron from roughly March 45 on and it's operational career consisted of patrols over Holland flown from Ludham, England. 2 Spit 21s were lost to flak. They claimed a midget sub sunk. No air to air claims.
Spit 21 of 91 Squadron
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spit21DLG.jpg)
I love Spitfires. I'd love a Spitfire XII in the game. But we've got too many other birds that need to come first in my opinion. A 4 Cannon Spit would just be another HO and run bird like the rest of em. On Malta the argument for removing the two cannon was that performance was lousy with 4 and if you can't hit em with 2 cannon, 4 won't make a difference.
The Spitfire that should be highest on the list is this one. It has the most important mod of all for Aces High:aok
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/SpitBeerRunner.jpg)
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Originally posted by SouthLanda
Information I have says that the last production models of the mark V spitfire were given a four cannon config.
The Spitfire Vc had a Universal Wing, meaning it was capable of carrying 4 cannons. The problem was there was a problem heating the outer gun bay so the Vc came off the line with 2 cannon and 4 303s. Only those low alt Vc in Italy used the 4 cannon as heating wasn't a problem. Same goes for any of the other Universal Wing Spits like the VII, VIII, and IX.
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2 Squadron, SAAF was the only squadron to use four cannons in Spit Vs in active service. They also had Vokes filters on those Spits, so the performance would be significantly impaired. Ammowise, I believe all cannons had 120 rounds, but I could be mistaken.
All in all I don't think it should be an option in AH as it would be grossly overused when compared to its historical usage.
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Just combine all of your Hurri IIC/F4U-1C nightmares into one aircraft, and you would, perhaps, approach a fraction of the problems a 4X20mm Spit V would create.
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Part of the reason for why the earliest SpitV's still had the 8xBrowning armament is because the gas-powered Hispanos would frequently jam. The problem was eventually fixed, but it was always good to have a more reliable backup.
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BTW: I was not suggesting it be added to the game and really don't know that we need it. Just looking for info on it when I saw it on the cover :-D
After I posted I remember reading about a Spit Vc and went back to look it up. Of course, they did not have all the info that has been provied here.
Thanks!
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Originally posted by Guppy35
OK lets do this one more time :)
The restored Spit on the cover of the magazine is representative of the planes that embarked on the USS Wasp for the trip to Malta. Once on Malta they removed two of the cannon. They did NOT fly combat with 4 cannons.
The only squadron I've ever found that operated 4 cannon Spitfire Vc were 2 SAAF in Italy in the ground attack role. Those Spit Vc also had the big tropical filter which really messed up performance. Throw in the weight of the 4 cannons and it was not a dog fighter. We DON'T need one in AH :)
The only photos I've ever found of the 4 cannon 2 Squadron Spit Vcs
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4CannonSpits-1.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4CannonSpitVc-1.jpg)
The Spitfire 21 was the last WW2 combat Spit. It had a completely redesigned wing with 4 cannon. It served with 91 Squadron from roughly March 45 on and it's operational career consisted of patrols over Holland flown from Ludham, England. 2 Spit 21s were lost to flak. They claimed a midget sub sunk. No air to air claims.
Spit 21 of 91 Squadron
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spit21DLG.jpg)
I love Spitfires. I'd love a Spitfire XII in the game. But we've got too many other birds that need to come first in my opinion. A 4 Cannon Spit would just be another HO and run bird like the rest of em. On Malta the argument for removing the two cannon was that performance was lousy with 4 and if you can't hit em with 2 cannon, 4 won't make a difference.
The Spitfire that should be highest on the list is this one. It has the most important mod of all for Aces High:aok
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/SpitBeerRunner.jpg)
man Guppy35 u kno EVERYTHING!! jeez, i guess u dont usually need to post questions about fighters
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Originally posted by angelsandair
man Guppy35 u kno EVERYTHING!! jeez, i guess u dont usually need to post questions about fighters
Ask him how to land a 38.... well in one piece anyway.:D
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All in all I don't think it should be an option in AH as it would be grossly overused when compared to its historical usage.
I doubt it ever will be, Karnak, since the recent trends shown by HTC seems to more closely pay attention to historical standards - ie. ruling out "uncommon" customization types from the game.
A clear indicator seems to be how they removed the gunpods from the Bf109-F4, and the Mk108 from the G-6 on (suspected) grounds of "uncommon armament set". As noted by some of the 109 experts, a Bf109F with gunpods required a rare, separate wing type to be fitted, and G-6s armed with Mk108s seem to be far less common than we initially thought. Thus, both armament options were removed from the game.
Then assuming the same standards apply, I doubt the SpitV would ever be given a 4x20mm armament option.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Ask him how to land a 38.... well in one piece anyway.:D
he knows "how to" and a 38 in one piece, he just never really get the chance to. :D
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Dan, tell us about the 'desert cowl' /tropical filter for the Spits, like in the picture above and what the heck it was for, how did it negatively impact performance?
Are those klieg lights on that spit? I know they're not beer kegs ;)
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Dan, tell us about the 'desert cowl' /tropical filter for the Spits, like in the picture above and what the heck it was for, how did it negatively impact performance?
Are those klieg lights on that spit? I know they're not beer kegs ;)
Beer kegs -
Funny you should mention it.
Johnnie Johnson used a Spit IX to fly from France back to his 'home' base on a regular basis on a 'Beer Run'.
On the return flight he carried 2 x beer kegs under the wings.
Thats what I call looking after your boys :) .
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Originally posted by scottydawg
I know they're not beer kegs ;)
Now there's a wishlist item. Beer kegs on the bomb pylons.
Imagine; you shoot someone down, then drop a keg near them. I bet there'd be a lot less whining and a lot more 's.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Dan, tell us about the 'desert cowl' /tropical filter for the Spits, like in the picture above and what the heck it was for, how did it negatively impact performance?
Are those klieg lights on that spit? I know they're not beer kegs ;)
The filter was neccesary for desert ops, but added weight, drag and reduced top speed. Since the Spit V was struggling to keep up with the 109s and later 190s as it was, slowing down didnt help :)
Because of the dislike of that filter, there were locally modified Spits with a smaller filter. The Aussies took many of there Spit Vc Trops and took off the Vokes filter and hand bashed a cowling panel for the underside of the engine.
The Spit IX is carrying beer kegs btw. They were used to carry beer to the squadrons once they moved from England to France :)
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Originally posted by Blammo
I just got my issue of Air & Space. It has a great picture of a Spit V on the cover, but it looks like it has 4 20 mm cannons in it. Was there such a version and, if so, how much use did it see? Also, what was the ammo load, performance, etc like on this bird? Was it comparable to the Spit V we have in game?
i just saw that isue.............
absolutley beautiful aircraft!!
did you also notice thre numbers.......the hurricane was more deadly than the spits...........
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Originally posted by CAP1
i just saw that isue.............
absolutley beautiful aircraft!!
did you also notice thre numbers.......the hurricane was more deadly than the spits...........
Well the hurricanes could outturn any plane on the European Front, no suprise it was deadlier. And also the 2cs had the 4 20mms. I guess the only setback would be, if u ran out of ammo, u cant run.........AND its pretty much a plane for only good or lucky shots....
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The RAF's "in company" war-time news reel (produced for RAF personel), "The Gen" (which is available on DVD) has some very nice footage of the above mentioned...worth tracking down, though probably only available in the UK...
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Originally posted by CAP1
i just saw that isue.............
absolutley beautiful aircraft!!
did you also notice thre numbers.......the hurricane was more deadly than the spits...........
The Hurricane was more plentiful then Spits in the B of B.
Anyone suggesting that the Hurricane was the deadlier aircraft in the ETO has been getting some bad info :)
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quick sideline question about the BoB
I know that 19 squadron had a few spit 1b's armed with Cannon
does anyone know how many Hurri's were armed with Cannon in the same period?
i've only seen 1 mentioned, V7360 from 46 squadron and that was shotdown on Sept 5 1940,
iirc 145 squadron had a few but i can't remember where i read it
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The Hurricane was more plentiful then Spits in the B of B.
Anyone suggesting that the Hurricane was the deadlier aircraft in the ETO has been getting some bad info :)
hhmm....well......technically speaking......even if the spit were a better fighter......just by the fact that there were more of the hurricane........doesn't that still make it the deadlier of the two? :D
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"does anyone know how many Hurri's were armed with Cannon in the same period?"
Yes, there were none.
The Hurricane IIA/B were both MG armed varients that saw some service in the closing weeks (Sept-October 1940) no Hurricane IICs saw action in the BoB.
Roughly 2/3 of Fighter Command had Hurricanes, most with the IA version.
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The 'B' signifies the 2x 20mm cannon + 4x .303" on a Spitfire.
On the Hurricane IIB, however, it's an armament of 12x .303" machine guns.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
The 'B' signifies the 2x 20mm cannon + 4x .303" on a Spitfire.
On the Hurricane IIB, however, it's an armament of 12x .303" machine guns.
12?????? how the hellll did they find room in the wings for that many???????:O :O
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Originally posted by CAP1
12?????? how the hellll did they find room in the wings for that many???????:O :O
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A 40ft wing span helped. ;)
notice the read dots
(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/501-600/walk542_Hurricane_Abbott/01.jpg)
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Oh, I want the 12x 303 version in game!! I would use it:aok
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Originally posted by Gaidin
Oh, I want the 12x 303 version in game!! I would use it:aok
Even a 8x .303 Spit V would do!
Who needs Hispanos when you can tickle your opponent to death?
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Hi Banzzai:
I know that 19 squadron had a few spit 1b's armed with Cannon
does anyone know how many Hurri's were armed with Cannon in the same period?
i've only seen 1 mentioned, V7360 from 46 squadron and that was shotdown on Sept 5 1940,
iirc 145 squadron had a few but i can't remember where i read it
Interesting! I've occasionally encountered mention of cannon armed Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain. I know 151 Squadron used at least one on operations. L-1750 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/l1750.jpg) was with 151 I believe. Here's a couple of Combat Reports from the Battle of Britain mentioning a cannon equipped Hurricane:
F/Lt R. Smith of 151 Squadron, 14 July 1940 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/151-smith-14july40-pg1.jpg)
F/Lt R. Smith of 151 Squadron, 31 August 1940 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/151-smith-31aug40-pg1.jpg)
I know that the Hurricane II was operational as well. I believe the Mk II was rather more common than cannon Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain. I realize it’s rather off the main thread subject but does anyone know off hand which units were equipped with the Hurricane II during the Battle of Britain?
With regard to 4 cannon Spitfires used operationally over Malta by RAF squadrons, please note the following:
Sgt A. P. Goldsmith of 126 Squadron recorded his combat of 21 April 1942 as follows:
"I was flying No. 2 Wombat White Section, to Plt. Off Peck, when we were jumped by four 109F’s at 18,000 feet. I took evasive action, aileron turning down to about 6000 feet, and about seven miles north of Grand Harbour. Here, one of the four e/a which had followed me down, crossed my nose in a climbing turn to the left, at a range of 150 yards. I followed him round, opening fire with the four cannons, observing strikes along the top of the mainplane and fuselage. After about two seconds, port cannons ceased firing, and I continued firing with starboard guns for two-three seconds. I then saw a large splash on the surface, and the e/a was seen for a few seconds just under the water before disappearing."
Shores, Cull and Malizia, Malta: The Spitfire year 1942, (Grub Street, London, 1991), p. 207
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/4-cannon-malta-spit.jpg)
Cheers,
Mike
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Here’s another Spitfire V, 4 cannon account from Malta.
Sgt. V. P. Brennan of 249 Squadron recorded his combat of 25 April 1942 as follows:
"I pulled up 30 or 40 feet underneath him. It was point blank range, and every detail of his machine stood out vividly. I could see his markings, his twin radiators, his retracted wheels, even the rivet heads of his fuselage. I gave him a second and a half with all four cannons. The result gave me a terrible fright. His starboard wing snapped off near the fuselage. It folded back, and banged against the fuselage. For a moment I thought it was going to tear away from his machine and come hurtling into my aircraft."
Brain Cull, 249 at War, (Grubb Street, London, 1997), p.108
Mike
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Originally posted by Lusche
Even a 8x .303 Spit V would do!
Who needs Hispanos when you can tickle your opponent to death?
well,,you know what they say......a tickle is just the beginning of a hurt:D
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Hi again Banzzai:
i've only seen 1 mentioned, V7360 from 46 squadron and that was shotdown on Sept 5 1940
Rawlings notes in Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. the following under 46 Squadrons’s chapter:
"In September, at the height of the Battle of Britain, it moved south to the North Weald Sector and here it was heavily involved. At this time it was issued with a Hurricane I, V7360, with four cannons in place of the eight machine-guns, for service trials and on 5th September this aircraft (coded “PO B”) and flown by Flight Lieutenant Rabagliati shot down a Messerschmitt 109.”
So, you had the first part correct about 46 Squadron having a cannon armed Hurricane, however, you have the second part of your sentence the wrong way round. It was the Hurricane that destroyed the Me 109. I have the combat report from the 5th and can confirm the 109 claim, however, the report itself makes no mention of the cannon. Rabagliati recorded: “Climbed to 12,000 ft. and spotted an Me 109 on the tail of a Spitfire. Gave this enemy aircraft a 3 sec. burst and he blew up in the air". The cannons are mentioned in the reports from 7 and 8 September 1940. Here’s the one from the 8th:
F/Lt A.C. Rabagliati, 46 Squadron, 8 September 1940 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/46-rabagliati-8sept40-pg1.jpg)
Here's a photo of V7360 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/v7360.jpg) from Tim Mason's The Secret Years.
Cheers,
Mike
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Thnx mike found it today as well (spent 2 days destroying the attic looking for a book)
log on and see your posts
i knew i had it wrong with V7360
btw nice site:aok