Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Randy1 on September 19, 2014, 03:45:52 PM
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I don't use F3 mode in bombers myself. Why is it even an option? If i come up on the bottom side of a fighter I have an advantage. Why shouldn't I have the same advantage in a fighter coming up on the bottom of say a B26. The B26 boys do some severe turns to avoid a bottom attack. Seems wrong to me especially when their drones hang on.
I could see a compromise. Uncheck formation and you get F3 view mode. Check formation and no F3 since you have three planes worth of guns. This is not a wish but a discussion point.
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The reason for F3 is the enhanced SA you'd get with a full bomber crew.
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The reason for F3 is the enhanced SA you'd get with a full bomber crew.
That would be further enhanced in a formation….3 times the eyes.
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I think it represents, correctly, the notion that there are crewmen looking in all directions at all times. Obviously, this is more the case with the B17 than so a Boston, bt the concpt is still legit IMO.
However, I would like to see some sort of revision that the views be based on each individual plane and not the class of plane. For instance, why does the Boston and A20 get the F3 mode when the IL-2, 110, and 410 do not? The pilot and crewmember are in the SAME positions. Oh, I fully understand not allowing the IL-2 to have the F3 mode, I fully support that. The armor alone restricts the view, but that plane, or that class (1 pilot, 1 dorsal rear facing crewman), is entirely different monster than the heavy bomber with multiple crewman looking in multiple directions.
Hopefully, HTC can figure out how to limit the F3 views a bit more. Again, this "all or none" categorizing is a bit much, imo.
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If the bombers had standard gun numbers assigned to each gun then the need for F3 would be eliminated. That is as an example the nose gun on all bombers with nose guns would always be 1. Top gun 2 and so on. Then the hat switch could be set up to give you all views just like a fighter hat switch.
I almost always use the B17 so the guns match my hat switch setting but another bomber I would have to change switch settings.
That would give the bombers a shooting advantage and give the fighters a break by not having to contend with an F3 fight.
This is not a huge deal. More of a fine tuning.
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The player in the bomber still has the disadvantage of only looking one way at a time. Crew lookout was full time in all directions.
Numbering the guns has to take into account the fact that different bombers did not have the same gun stations.
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The player in the bomber still has the disadvantage of only looking one way at a time. Crew lookout was full time in all directions.
With a hat switch I can roll through the gun positions pretty quick. You also assume all those eyes were perfectly coordinated.
Numbering the guns has to take into account the fact that different bombers did not have the same gun stations.
A standard numbering system does just that. A rear gun is still a rear gun. A top gun is still a top gun. Although there are top-rear facing guns, once defined, you can use your bomber hat switch effectively on each bomber and do away with bomber arcade mode.
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A standard numbering system does just that. A rear gun is still a rear gun. A top gun is still a top gun. Although there are top-rear facing guns, once defined, you can use your bomber hat switch effectively on each bomber and do away with bomber arcade mode.
Ok, post your standard numbering system covering the following bombers and fighters:
A-20G
B-17G
B-24J
B-25C
B-25H
B-26B
B-29A
B5N2
Bf110C-4b
Bf110G-2
Boston Mk III
D3A1
G4M1
He111H
Il-2
Ju87D
Ju87G
Ju88A-4
Ki-67
Lancaster Mk III
Me410
SBD-5
TBM-3
Tu-2
You should strive for standardization and for keeping the numbers on a given aircraft as gap free as possible.
Good:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 3: belly gunner
Bad:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 5: belly gunner
Have at.
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The reason for F3 is the enhanced SA you'd get with a full bomber crew.
The major problem with this argument is that bomber vics in AH aren't being operated by a full crew, in fact they are rarely being operated by more than a single player.
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I don't use F3 mode in bombers myself. Why is it even an option? If i come up on the bottom side of a fighter I have an advantage. Why shouldn't I have the same advantage in a fighter coming up on the bottom of say a B26. The B26 boys do some severe turns to avoid a bottom attack. Seems wrong to me especially when their drones hang on.
I could see a compromise. Uncheck formation and you get F3 view mode. Check formation and no F3 since you have three planes worth of guns. This is not a wish but a discussion point.
To me it sounds like the title of this thread should have been "How can you kill buffs while they use F3 mode to follow you?" :devil
As stated the F3 mode is meant to mimic all the gunners looking out and around the buff at all times. With F3 mode your view is the combined information all of your gunners are feeding in. In the old days we had "death stars" which were buffs with all the gun positions manned by players. Flying into a fight...even a furball :devil was more like you see in the old movies with the chatter on the radio or what was were and heading which way so each gunner knew where to pick up the next bogie coming into their area of fire.
With F3 mode you don't have all that chatter as the info is available to you as you scan. Jumping from gun to gun isn't going to give you the same detail of information.
Your score sheet shows,over the last 2 years or so your K/D against buffs is under .35. I cant say how many times you have run up against buffs and limped away to survive to land but to me thats a fail too as the buff didn't go down. Many other players have better than a 1 K/D. So to me it looks more along the line that your not attacking buffs well. Im no super stud when it comes to killing buffs but Im much closer to a 1 K/D and that is with the same F3 mode pointing at me.
If you find yourself looking at ANY part of the rear view of a buff when your making a run your doing it wrong and most likely will lose. Think back to those times your in your B17, even with F3 mode it is hard to track, aim, and hit a target moving fast coming from anywhere in front of the 3-9 line of your buff. From behind, closing rates are much slower and they don't seem to move around much and so are much easier to hit. Remember that when you are fighting them in fighters.
I think the F3 mode is a good compromise. I know when Im flying a buff Im never going to get 4 or 5 guys to gun for me.... even if we could, so F3 helps there. As a fighter I know while they can see me all that much better they still have to hit me and if I use the things that I hate seeing fighters use against me in buff, against the buffs I know I stand that much better a chance against them and that they can be beat fairly easily even being able to see all around with F3 mode.
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You should strive for standardization and for keeping the numbers on a given aircraft as gap free as possible.
Good:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 3: belly gunner
Bad:
TBM-3: 2: dorsal gunner, 5: belly gunner
Have at.
Why? It makes no difference if positions are numbered in sequence! What is important is consistency ie the nose position is always 1 and if an aircraft doesn't have a nose gun then 1 does nothing. If you use any kind of programable controls this is very important. If you use only keyboard, it is still better because you only have to remember one set of keys.
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Why? It makes no difference if positions are numbered in sequence! What is important is consistency ie the nose position is always 1 and if an aircraft doesn't have a nose gun then 1 does nothing. If you use any kind of programable controls this is very important. If you use only keyboard, it is still better because you only have to remember one set of keys.
Exactly.
If the top gun on a B17 is 2 then it is a 2 on an A20. A B25 would have a 1 assigned for the nose gun but on the H it would have no function. Is the gun on the tail or on the top? Tail guns always have say a key 3 and top guns even if they only shot backwards are still a 2.
The point is no more arcade mode even for the C47.
Another compromise would be to only be able to view using F3 but no firing of flight controls.
If nothing else then a standard numbering system for those of us who do not want to use arcade mode.
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The major problem with this argument is that bomber vics in AH aren't being operated by a full crew, in fact they are rarely being operated by more than a single player.
That's not the problem it's the supporting premise.
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Why? It makes no difference if positions are numbered in sequence! What is important is consistency ie the nose position is always 1 and if an aircraft doesn't have a nose gun then 1 does nothing. If you use any kind of programable controls this is very important. If you use only keyboard, it is still better because you only have to remember one set of keys.
Consistency is impossible so your best bet is to make the most common gun position 2, second most common 3 and so on. Large gaps between positions are ergonomically bad.
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How would you handle numbering the ju88 with its two side by side top guns or the tu2 and its two tandem top guns? No matter the solution there will always be players who will gripe about it and offer their own solution for this particular thing. Personally, I think it would be better to let the player assign their own button scheme for gun positions.
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How would you handle numbering the ju88 with its two side by side top guns or the tu2 and its two tandem top guns? No matter the solution there will always be players who will gripe about it and offer their own solution for this particular thing. Personally, I think it would be better to let the player assign their own button scheme for gun positions.
That may be a way to do both. Have a settings file (similar to head position) for each plane so the player can program each plane with the numbering system they prefer and if there is no file then revert to what is there now. Solves everyone's problem! HT just has to implement it😃
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To the OP, what are you expecting to gain if F3 were to be disabled? Killing bombers is already like clubbing baby seals... I say we need to give them more advantages..
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Killing bombers is already like clubbing baby seals...
The ones that are easiest to shoot down are those that don't plan for contingencies and don't have the patience to attempt a well executed bomb run.
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The ones that are easiest to shoot down are those that don't plan for contingencies and don't have the patience to attempt a well executed bomb run.
... and the ones who seem to complain the most about bomber guns, are the ones who don't have the patience to set up a proper attack on bombers to keep from getting killed...
I can look at EVERY death I have to bombers and tell you EXACTLY what I did wrong...
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Randy1, This month, I have 56 bomber kills and ZERO deaths. Please let me help you with your technique. Feel free to PM me anytime and you can wing up with me. I will show you exactly how I do it. It is not only my goal to kill them with out dying, but to kill them without taking one ping so I can keep re-arming and hunting. I fly Knights. You will need to bring patience, everything else I can teach you sir :salute
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The crew screaming on the squack box is no where near as effective as F3 mode. Also it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to jump between gun positions that a single person jumping between them, is more effective than a manned crew yelling out where enemy planes are.
In my opinion, a single person jumping between the guns is already better than the bombers crews yelling on the radio. F3 mode is a level beyond what is needed.
If you are getting snuck up on in a bomber formation your SA stinks. It has nothing to do with who or who is not in all the gun positions. :salute
That siad the problem with buffs is not F3. It's that the damage model for the fuselage seems way to tough compared to the wings. :salute
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The crew screaming on the squack box is no where near as effective as F3 mode. Also it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to jump between gun positions that a single person jumping between them, is more effective than a manned crew yelling out where enemy planes are.
In my opinion, a single person jumping between the guns is already better than the bombers crews yelling on the radio. F3 mode is a level beyond what is needed.
If you are getting snuck up on in a bomber formation your SA stinks. It has nothing to do with who or who is not in all the gun positions. :salute
That siad the problem with buffs is not F3. It's that the damage model for the fuselage seems way to tough compared to the wings. :salute
Bombers are essentially free kills. I don't know why people want them to be even more vulnerable.
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Randy1, This month, I have 56 bomber kills and ZERO deaths. Please let me help you with your technique. Feel free to PM me anytime and you can wing up with me. I will show you exactly how I do it. It is not only my goal to kill them with out dying, but to kill them without taking one ping so I can keep re-arming and hunting. I fly Knights. You will need to bring patience, everything else I can teach you sir :salute
What he said. This month, I have 92 kills of level bombers and 1 death. That 1 death was me getting impatient and colliding like a doofus. You have all the cards against bombers. If you are regularly getting beat by bombers, seek the help of a qualified trainer. Or an alt-tard, like Zoney. ;)
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Bombers are essentially free kills.
Assuming you're in position, in no rush, and in a decent aircraft for killing bombers. Mostly the first 2. If you're not in position and have time pressure if you're trying to get them before the drop, they can be tough.
I don't know why people want them to be even more vulnerable.
I chalk it up to lack of patience/desire to climb. Unfortunately if they changed bombers to what most of these people have in mind, someone who knows what they're doing and is in position would be in pretty much 0 danger on their attack.
Wiley.
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Randy1, This month, I have 56 bomber kills and ZERO deaths. Please let me help you with your technique. Feel free to PM me anytime and you can wing up with me. I will show you exactly how I do it. It is not only my goal to kill them with out dying, but to kill them without taking one ping so I can keep re-arming and hunting. I fly Knights. You will need to bring patience, everything else I can teach you sir :salute
Thank you Zoney for the offer.
I should point out that I do not hunt bombers specifically. Nor do I fly high cover. The bombers I go after are those that are in on attacking runs to our base or those I think might turn back for another run. Most of the time it is a climbing pursuit which all knows is a bad starting point to attack bombers with a low survival rate without heavy fire power.
I should also point out that I do very well killing fighters when flying B17s without using F3. Not the best, but can kill more of them than they can kill of me unless we are jumped by hordes of bomber hunters.
Off the top of my head the big winners with F3 view are those bombers that do not have gun views top, bottom, front and tail like a B26 and a Tu2. They have a perfect view to fly avoidance from F3 when they should have blind spots
I still think a comprise would be to have standard numbering system for bomber guns with no F3 or a view from F3 but no plane or gun control. Even both worked together would be fine.
I was surprised too to find out too an attached gunner also has F3 view so you can have two F3 views going at the same time.
Keep in mind too this is a discussion not a witch hunt. If F3 stays as it is, so be it.
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Most of the time it is a climbing pursuit which all knows is a bad starting point to attack bombers with a low survival rate without heavy fire power.
It's not a bad starting point at all. Unless you slowly climb to the bomber's butt until you are D500 on his low 6, instead of taking another 3 minutes to get into a proper attack position first.
Which is unfortunately happening a lot. 10-15 minutes of climb and pursuit, and then too impatient to spend another three, screaming on 200 how overmodeled bombers are while going down in a death spiral.
As a bomber pilot, each time I see a fighter overtake me and continue climb past co-alt, I know I'm really in trouble. But few actually do.
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It's not a bad starting point at all. Unless you slowly climb to the bomber's butt until you are D500 on his low 6, instead of taking another 3 minutes to get into a proper attack position first.
Which is unfortunately happening a lot. 10-15 minutes of climb and pursuit, and then too impatient to spend another three, screaming on 200 how overmodeled bombers are while going down in a death spiral.
As a bomber pilot, each time I see a fighter overtake me and continue climb past co-alt, I know I'm really in trouble. But few actually do.
I never tune to 200.
Three minutes in some planes yes but B26s and Tu2s can be tough to climb to and catch in average performance planes . Even empty B17s can take a full tank of fuel to catch if they have a lead and start climbing or a proper dive for maximum speed. There are planes of course that can do that faster than others. A P38 with a load of fuel will be pulled out of a base fight trying to get a good firing position on bombers. A bad choice for base defense if they are empty.
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Most bombers that are free kills will be free kills as a fighter with the same player in them. It has nothing to do with the performance or lethality of the guns. A bomber player beyond the clueless level is a much harder target to beat - and by beat I mean kill all 3 bombers. Yes, of course if you come with 5000 feet alt advantage and ahead of the bombers they are easy to kill, but so is a 262 in similar conditions.
Statistics in fighter vs. bomber can be misleading. Killing one drone and RTB'ing with a smoking engine will count fully towards the fighter, but the bomber will still drop hangars / level the town / etc with the other 2 bombers. A bomber also cannot finish a wounded fighter, so the common scenario in which fighter attacking the bombers does no real damage, getting smoked, and managing to RTB does not even enter the statistics. Not to mention the multitude bomber kills from bomb&bail, 0-alt carpet bombing, losing drones in turns without even being fired uppon, etc.
Bombers are not hard to kill, but neither are fighters, except that to take out one clueless player in a bomber takes much more ammo than to kill a good one in a fighter.
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Yes, of course if you come with 5000 feet alt advantage and ahead of the bombers they are easy to kill, but so is a 262 in similar conditions.ghter.
"In similar conditions" - which are so much easier to achieve against bombers than against a 262 any other fighter. It's not even close to be comparable. Try to get yourself into postion vs a 262 and do the same against bombers. With three notable (and quite rare exceptions), bombers are relatively easy to catch, and there's little they can do about (unless flying at 30k+, but even most bomber pilots wont bother with this very time consuming tactic)
When I'm in the 262 and see a fighter 5k above me in time I can still run away in most cases unless I really messed up and fly 300 mph near the deck. When I'm in a B-17 and see a fighter 5k above me, there's about nothing I can do but hope he sucks.
Even when I shoot the fighter down, he often can come back. Like yesterday where I was attacked twice by the same player, once over my target area and once while flying home, despite flying at 24k. Fortunately it was a 6 o clock attacker as well.
Today I was less fortunate. Three times my missions were stopped cold by enemy fighters, even though in one case I lost all three planes. I came in at 14K (B-24), 18k (B-17) and 21k (G4M). In the last two runs, I was jumped by much higher fighetrs each time and immedieately knew I was screwed and that I could not hope to fulfill my mission at all.