Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: CptTrips on February 01, 2023, 12:06:51 PM
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$14.95 in 2000 dollars is not the same as $14.95 in 2023 dollars.
In 2021, the relative values of $14.95 from 2000 ranges from $22.70 to $33.50.
https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/relativevalue.php (https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/relativevalue.php)
If no changes can be made to make the sim more appealing to a wider modern audience, then it is a boutique product. Perhaps a boutique product should have a boutique price.
It takes money to update the remaining plane models. HTC has been taking a price reduction hit in real terms every year since 2000.
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(insert colourful expletives here)
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(insert colourful expletives here)
Cut me some slack. I'm iced in. Need a little entertainment. :devil
But is my logic flawed?
To be even more evil, frankly from a mercenary point of view, maybe the remaining population is inelastic. They've stayed this long with no meaningful development. They've stayed this long with dwindling population. Perhaps they are so locked in they would accept merely adjusting the cost from 2000 accounting for inflation.
It's not really increasing the price in real terms. Is it fair to ask HTC to take a pay cut every year? Would you work at a company that refused to bump your salary in 23 years?
[Edit] Waiting for the Canadians to complain like they always d about prices. :rofl
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It also means AH is becoming and better and better value every year. :devil :rock :salute
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It also means AH is becoming and better and better value every year.
And less and less incentive for HTC to continue development every year too.
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Money is important, to be sure, but I suspect there are other factors in play regarding the stable state of the game.
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stable
That is a carefully chosen euphemism. ;)
Like Special Military Operation. ;)
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But is my logic flawed?
Yes. Because from my gamer's perspective, it's already overpriced as is. You have a product with no meaningful updates anymore (last new ride added a full 9 years ago), with broken mechanics and unfixed bugs and a gameplay massively suffering from dwindling numbers (I have to fly late at night in my timezone to get a glimpse of the action AH used to have).
And nothing of that will improve if you raise the price. And without any instant improvements, more players may actually quit after a price hike, thus just accelerating the downward spiral.
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$20\month would be sane adjustment in real terms from 2000 values.
In fact, it would be a slight reduction in price in real terms from what you paid in 2000.
So pitch it as a price reduction (in real terms). :cool:
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Yes. Because from my gamer's perspective, it's already overpriced as is.
Well, that is not the part I was referring to. ;)
Would you agree that since 2000, HTC has taken ~40% reduction in per player revenue in real terms?
The only way that would make any rational sense for a company is if volume was doubling or tripling in that time.
Bottom line is, HT is not a 3D artist. If the player base ever wants to see the remaining cockpits updated or God forbid a new plane or vehicle, then taking a yearly pay cut is probably not the way to attain that. Someone probably has to be paid to do that work.
I guess he could cash out some IRA. Or just give up and remain "stable". I guess I just realized today that if people like me want to see development and new stuff, then it would be a reasonable change.
Otherwise, I guess we shouldn't ask for new development. This is Murica! We don't work for free!
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Someone elbow him and schuush his pie hole. HiTech is making a good living at human trafficking...oh wait did I say that out loud :headscratch:
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Where the game stood in comparison to its competition, let's say, the early 2000's, is quite different from where it stands now. It's basically the same game, albeit with GV combat, ship-to-ship combat, amphibious landings with battleship support, etc.
Then, it was an up-and-comer, drawing players from Warbirds, AW, Fighter Ace, etc. The first to offer flat-rate pricing, IIRC. Now, it's the Gray Lady (I mean that affectionately) of multiplayer WWII online combat, competing against War Thunder, DCS, IL-2 Great Battles. The best thing about the game is really the community and the fun we have when we're online together.
I'd be afraid a price hike would cause too many players to re-evaluate whether the game is worth the price, compared to the free online play and continuing development and new releases by its competitors. We might lose more players than we can spare.
It's not really about whether Hitech deserves a raise - its about what the game offers in the current environment against it's competition, and what that is worth to new and existing customers...
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HiTech is making a good living at human trafficking...
Did you just imply HT is working as a male prostitute?
:D
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It's not really about whether Hitech deserves a raise - its about what the game offers in the current environment against it's competition, and what that is worth to new and existing customers...
You and Lucshe are making fair points.
I'm pretty much writing off the possibility of new players. (As-in not just old players returning for a bit. Each time recycled players come back they tend not to stay as long as the last time.) I don't think the current market will pay for AH at any price in it's current form. At least you couldn't convince them of that in two weeks. Which is why I have suggested a F2P planeset to maybe have a chance to keep them around long enough to realize AH's subtler charms.
So the question is, are the remaining players so locked into their social network, their squads, their FSO, their events here that they would tolerate adjusting the rate to compensate for inflation since 2000. Not saying they wouldn't beotch. Consumers want everything for free if they can get it. Businesses just can't run that way.
This community wouldn't pay an extra 20 cents a day to keep AH healthy?
You may be right. That is illuminating though.
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I’d pay an extra 5-10 bucks a month if that meant 400+ players in the MA during prime time.
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I agree with your assessment of recycled players - sortof like they have a half-life that diminishes with each re-up. Unless some threshold is finally crossed and we become Lifers? I know I went through the cycle myself.
There are still new players coming in - look at Tig, he's practically worth his weight in new members. He just abounds with enthusiasm for the game and community. And I feel like I really have been seeing higher numbers in the MA lately.
A F2P plane/vehicle subset makes sense I think; other games have proven it's a viable strategy. And I don't think there is much beyond Hitech's ability as a programmer, so maybe he's just opposed to it philosophically. Or lacks the time or some other resource(s) to implement a change like that.
Many of us probably would pay an extra 20 cents a day to keep AH healthy (is it unhealthy? Being a privately-held company, how can we know?) But others would demand some new features for their money, and threaten to terminate their accounts, and some would follow through. Difficult for me to see a happy ending in that scenario...
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There are still new players coming in - look at Tig, he's practically worth his weight in new members.
Tig seems like a great guy. However there are only a limited number of subscriptions one guy can pay for. ;)
How many completely new (non-recycled) players have been added say in the last year? Can you count them on one hand? Of course it is always hard to know which are just shades for existing players.
And I feel like I really have been seeing higher numbers in the MA lately.
I'm sure you are right. As Lusche has stated before, there is a seasonal fluctuation. Higher in winter when people are housebound, and lower in summer when people are out enjoying the outdoors.
If we enter a GFC level recession this year, it will be interesting to see what effect that has when combined with the normal summer low point. Might be a double whammy.
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I’d pay an extra 5-10 bucks a month if that meant 400+ players in the MA during prime time.
Reasonable
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The price of gas is up. The price of groceries is up. Rent is up. Now you want to raise the price here? :furious
We have too much of that going around already. I am having to cut back already. I don't want to be priced out of flying my airplane.
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I’d pay an extra 5-10 bucks a month if that meant 400+ players in the MA during prime time.
So that's a hard "no" then. ;)
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We used to pay more back in the beginning..
$29.95 if I recall correctly and the place was packed
Eagler
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Pretty sure it was $19.99 when I started playing like 2005-6
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Pretty sure it was $19.99 when I started playing like 2005-6
It was $30 when I started. ;)
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Price was 29.95 until August 2001, then 14.95
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It was $30 when I started. ;)
Me, too - and it was half of what I was spending monthly to fly in Warbirds. I really appreciate what Hitech did for the monthly cost of flying.
It just occurred to me though- at that time, we were funding active development of the sim. I think you are probably right to suggest AH is in a long-term maintenance only phase now, with no new features or developments in the pipeline, so I'm almost inclined to suggest a price cut is warranted, rather than a price increase. Plus, if you cut the price, the number of players should increase, solving one of the current complaints of low numbers in the game. If you raise the price, it follows that the number of players should be reduced, and that makes the complaints about player numbers worse.
All depends on how elastic the demand for AH is, I guess...
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Price was 29.95 until August 2001, then 14.95
Actually they did a pricing study where they offered lifetime price locks to players at certain prices - I think its possible that some players took advantage of a $19.95 price offer at that time. IIRC, price point offers included $9.95, $14.95, 19.95, etc.
They looked at the results and decided $14.95 was the sweet spot, and reduced the price for everyone to that level.
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Plus, if you cut the price, the number of players should increase, solving one of the current complaints of low numbers in the game. If you raise the price, it follows that the number of players should be reduced, and that makes the complaints about player numbers worse.
Maybe, maybe not.
If I took a dog turd and put it on a bun and charged you 10 cents, would you buy it and eat it just because it is cheap? What if I charged you 5 cents?
I'm not saying AH is a turd on a bun, just that taking something that is not appealing to the market and lowering the price, doesn't necessarily mean more sales.
Conversely, sometimes raising a price on something can make it even more desirable. Dos anyone think a Jaguar is worth what they are paying from a engineering point of view?
You don't always want more customers unless the net profit exceeds the additional overhead. The more players you have, the more support and other hassles. Many hotels will keep their prices high even with empty rooms. More guests at a cheaper price doesn't necessarily pay for the additional costs and house-keeping.
Ideally, you want the least number of customers at the highest revenue you can get to get a profit. More money, less hassles.
So from a strategic point of view, if I were working from Goldman-Saches venture capital division, I'd be asking how hard can we squeeze the existing customers, who have 20 years sunk cost and a large chunk their identities and social networks tied up in this game, before enough of them leave to prevent it from being a net profit. 20 cents a day? They would give up FSO and Scenarios over 20 cents a day?
BTW, I'm at least half joking. :cool:
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I'd pay $20/month for the Westland Whirlwind and the return of the Furball lake :banana:
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Y'all are more worried about HiTechs money than he is
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Y'all are more worried about HiTechs money than he is
I doubt that.
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If you want to pay more, why not pay for a 2nd account?
Leave us with monetary problems at least the ability to pay for a few tours a year.
:old:
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If you want to pay more, why not pay for a 2nd account?
Leave us with monetary problems at least the ability to pay for a few tours a year.
:old:
I feel ya. I'm in the same boat.
It's not a question of anyone "wanting" to pay more. No consumer ever "wants" to pay more.
The question is would it be reasonable to adjust the subscription cost based on inflation since 2000. If not, you are saying the game is 40% less valuable than it was in 2000. That was Lucshe's argument, if I understood.
I'm not saying he should raise the price, but that it wouldn't be unreasonable. It's an open question of how many of the remaining die-hards would close their accounts over merely re-aligning the subscription with it's original cost adjusted for inflation. You can raise the price of junk to a junkie and he'll whine, but he'll pay it. He'll just go rob more. ;)
We are all facing higher prices on stuff. Eggs...Jesus. HT is paying those prices too. With 40% less revenue per player, and a lot less players. We all have bills.
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This is the right perspective. Everyone’s prices are higher. I don’t know how many active subs there are but can it more than 300? t that number AH most likely barely pays for itself of at all.
Hopefully Dale has other jobs!
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This is the right perspective. Everyone’s prices are higher. I don’t know how many active subs there are but can it more than 300?
It's definitely much more. For example, of the 860 players with registered kills or deaths in tour 271, 679 had been flying in at least two of the four previous tours under the same handle - so that's the absolute minimum number of subscribers. Factor in dormant accounts, players who changed their name or are just playing every once in a while, you will come to even higher numbers. Probably significantly higher, but of course we will never know the exact number.
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This is the right perspective. Everyone’s prices are higher. I don’t know how many active subs there are but can it more than 300? t that number AH most likely barely pays for itself of at all.
Hopefully Dale has other jobs!
No way to definitely know.
If I was forced to wager, I'd say ~800. Usually only a small percentage of the total players are ever on at one time. Many never go into the Melee and only show up for events.
I wouldn't be surprised if some were dead and their widows just never notice that auto pay. ;)
I've seen up to 200 live bodies split between the Melee and Special Event at one time. So take some reasonable percentage estimate maybe 600-1000. ~800 would be my bet.
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Hopefully Dale has other jobs!
I think potsNPans was suggesting he was working as a male prostitute.
Frankly I don't see that as viable, but who knows, it's a strange world. :O
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Still even at 800 it’s not retirement time or enough money to staff a development team. Plus some of those 800 are double and triples I’m sure. I think Merv has 42 accounts.
I totally bet you there are some recurring charges people don’t know about. I got a box of hello fresh last week because I forgot I was signed up. :headscratch:
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Still even at 800 it’s not retirement time or enough money to staff a development team.
Apparently not.
Hence the question, if we discount the pipe dream that if HTC just advertised at air shows or something and handed out t-shirts that 600 new players would magically reappear in the Melee, and if the old timers don't want any changes made that might make the game more appealing to the modern market, then maybe it would be reasonable to ask the remaining die-hards to at least pay what they used to pay in 2000 (adjusting for inflation)?
You either survive on volume or margin. Ideally both, but lets be realistic.
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This tour I am paying 26 cents an hour to play....
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This tour I am paying 26 cents an hour to play....
I get about an hour a night m_ f so 20 hrs a month..divided by $15...about 75 cents an hour
Nowhere else can such entertainment be found at such a cheap price
Eagler
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about 75 cents an hour
This tour I am paying 26 cents an hour to play....
Well, luckily you can reduce your marginal cost by playing more hours. ;)
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I agree with Eagler $29.95 per month would be reasonable.
How about in-game advertising? Food. Gamers get hungry :D.
That is just an example.
In the tower you see an add like YouTube that lasts about 3-5 seconds and you can click to not see anymore, then click on Fly.
You land on the runway and there is a billboard with an advertisement, like Scotty’s Used Semis.
Some sponsors might advertise AH as well.
Got ideas…..post them.
We all want AH to continue to develop and it takes resources for it to happen.
:salute
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I think you guys are playing with fire. There appears to be no development going on, and you want to double the price?
My guess is AH would lose 25-50% of its remaining subscribers. I think a price increase would hasten AH's demise.
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I’m not paying for YouTube ads.
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I’m not paying for YouTube ads.
I think he is yanking on your joystick. :cool:
"Not that there is anything wrong with that...."
(https://preview.redd.it/f7j7bcsn9z811.jpg?auto=webp&s=fb876c951d9e23ac635fbc25f44833d9bd0be1da)
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I think you guys are playing with fire. There appears to be no development going on, and you want to double the price?
My guess is AH would lose 25-50% of its remaining subscribers. I think a price increase would hasten AH's demise.
Hmm, I guess I didn't think that through - if double the price, you will most likely lose some subscribers. But, if you lose less than 50% of your existing player base, you come out ahead, right?
I still don't think its a good idea, though. The cost of online gaming has been coming down, and moving away from subscription-based.
Nope. Still think a free base plane/vehicle set is a better option. Appreciate the discussion though.
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Nope. Still think a free base plane/vehicle set is a better option.
Sure, but that has been shot down as a hard no.
Volume or margin; both is awesome, but neither is bad.
Maybe they could advertise at airshows? Have they thought of that?
:cool:
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Right now, in 2000 dollars, it's like you are paying $8.97 instead of $14.99.
They didn't calculate how to stay solvent at those numbers.
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I think he is yanking on your joystick. :cool:
"Not that there is anything wrong with that...."
(https://preview.redd.it/f7j7bcsn9z811.jpg?auto=webp&s=fb876c951d9e23ac635fbc25f44833d9bd0be1da)
I’ve been rewatching Seinfeld on Comedy Central all day couple times a week working from home. Seeing stuff I missed before, what a great show.
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I’ve been rewatching Seinfeld on Comedy Central all day couple times a week working from home. Seeing stuff I missed before, what a great show.
It was a classic. Right up there with I Love Lucy in the history books I bet.
:bhead
Except the finale episode.