Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Sp4de on March 27, 2005, 06:33:46 PM

Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Sp4de on March 27, 2005, 06:33:46 PM: Click me (http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/ki84bp_1.htm)

only a few pictures but dang!! that looks sweet! can any of you skin it?
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on March 27, 2005, 09:20:55 PM: Quote

(http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/ki8472bp_2.jpg)

Looks like might be a Kamikaze plane.

The fuselage letters say; "must sink"
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 27, 2005, 09:28:31 PM: I didn't know they used front line fighters as kamikaze. Thought it was mostly 2nd line stuff and bombers.

Its a colorful scheme though. Wonder how the community feels about skinned kamikaze planes? I haven't really made up my mind how I feel about it. Seems like it could be a touchy subject.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on March 27, 2005, 09:48:54 PM: I've wondered the same oboe. I wouldn't mind if someone else does it, but I won't want to skin it.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Viper17 on March 27, 2005, 09:56:02 PM: Best play it safe and dont do it.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Cobra412 on March 28, 2005, 03:28:47 AM: I don't see what the problem is. It's historic. In my mind it's no different than placing kill tallies on the side of the planes.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Dinky2003 on March 28, 2005, 03:35:18 AM: Couldn't you guys just omit the Japanese characters?
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 28, 2005, 07:25:43 AM: Being historic doesn't necessarily help, as I've learned from my "Itsy Bitsy II" P-38 skin. If HTC thinks it will offend too many people then they would disallow it, and I can't say I blame them.
That said, I doubt many people would realize it's a kamikaze scheme.

I recall serving as a kamikaze pilot in a Warbirds scenario years ago. I dutifully flew my D3A into the deck of a carrier, but it gave me sortof a creepy feeling about the whole thing. Granted you can't accurately recreate late war Pacific battles without recognizing these attacks, but I found something unsettling about an enemy who was so desparate they would commit barely-trained kids to intentional suicide missions. A few years ago someone floated an actual document of instructions to kamikaze pilots and its contents were just sad.

Maybe its just a Western mind/Eastern mind thing. Or maybe I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. For now, its just an aspect of total war I don't think I care to commemorate in a game-- along the same lines as massive fire-bombing raids or use of atomic weapons.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: victor on March 28, 2005, 06:03:47 PM: We can hide all day long, to not offend people .And I think care should be taken to ,but with that said, history never changes even if society does. Pilots felt honored to dressed their planes with markings indicating kills ,beliefs,ect. that is history and cannot be changed. This is intended in no way to flame or bait anyone. My grandfather was among the first native americans to hit the beaches on D-Day and wore our tibal colors and insig. on his uniform which would probably be offensive today,but I still see pride in his eyes when we;re looking at old photos. Just my take on markings.

Vic
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on March 28, 2005, 08:54:28 PM: Quote
Originally posted by victor
We can hide all day long, to not offend people .And I think care should be taken to ,but with that said, history never changes even if society does. Pilots felt honored to dressed their planes with markings indicating kills ,beliefs,ect. that is history and cannot be changed. This is intended in no way to flame or bait anyone. My grandfather was among the first native americans to hit the beaches on D-Day and wore our tibal colors and insig. on his uniform which would probably be offensive today,but I still see pride in his eyes when we;re looking at old photos. Just my take on markings.

Vic

That is true, but it is not how Japanese see the Kamikazes. Contrary to popular beleif, they were not really volunteers and they did not want to go.

Mitsu mentioned that kamikaze skins were not something that he liked. The idea of flying to die is no more appealing to a Japanese than an American.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: victor on March 28, 2005, 09:41:46 PM: Thank you Karnak for that well said comment. Not being a history buff or very knowlegable of the Japanese culture,I can only speak from the culture I grew up in.However after I posted I thought of different cultures and how they view their efforts are involved in the war.Thank you, I stand corrected,at least in part.

VIC
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Hawklore on March 29, 2005, 01:51:15 AM: Divine Wind...

It's sort of like a Holy Knight on a single crusade..

They had guts to do it, just like we had guts to land on Iwo Jima...

Skin it, don't be PC, PC is stupid..
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: TexMurphy on March 29, 2005, 02:46:32 AM: Personally I think that is one of the coolest Ki skins Ive seen.

I do understand if you dont feel "right" about doing kamikaze skins. But I would really appriciate it if someone could research the history around this.

Though I find it really strange that they would use as new planes as the Ki84s as kamikazes.

Tex

EDIT: according to this: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html

Very few Ki-84s where expended as Kamikaze planes, but still they where used as ones.

Question now is was this perticular one a Kamikaze?
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on March 29, 2005, 07:19:18 AM: The problem is they didn't have guts to do it. They were forced to do it, with refusal being totally unacceptable - the pilot, if he refuses, would not only face court-marshall and be charged with high treason and disloyalty to the Empire, but his family would also suffer.

So look at it this way;

A society based on checks, balances and 'shame', on the verge of losing the war.

The world around him is going mad and falling apart, some people are going berserk, others are sobbing and crying. The war is lost, but the military refuses to surrender.

As a pilot, everything is so frustrating and hopeless, everyone knows he will probably die on the job, Depression is the norm, many feel mentally ill and suicidal. Every letter sent to his family is censored, and he is not allowed to talk about the truth of the kamikaze.

So, a frustrated, hopeless, deeply depressed pilot waits "the time", as convicts in the death row would. There are no 'pardons' in this 'prison', and everyone around you expects you to die.

If you refuse, you will dishonor your family and your name, sent to be courtmarshalled and put to death sentence anyway. Besides, your family would be branded as 'family of the traitor', shamed in the town/city they lived, mocked, cursed, and shunned from the society.

So you're gonna die anyway. There's no getting out of this death spiral. Might as well just barge in, and hope at least your family will be protected and be highly looked upon, thanks to your death.

It's sad, grim, and I find no holiness in any of it.

What makes it worse, is that the Imperial military conscripted kids from their colonies under military rule.

Quite a few kamikaze pilots were actually Koreans, who in this case, were dragged out from their homes, taught flimsy two-bit flight lessons, and sent to die. If they would think otherwise, these Koreans would be shot down by their 'wardens' in the air.

It wasn't even their war they were fighting. They were sent to die for a country which destroyed their own country.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on March 29, 2005, 08:40:20 AM: It's a game and this skin looks good.
I'd fly it.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Skydancer on March 29, 2005, 09:02:45 AM: "It's a game and this skin looks good.
I'd fly it."

Straight into a Carrier?;) :lol
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 29, 2005, 09:12:10 AM: Interesting contrast in attitudes between Kweassa and Moot.

According to "Emblems of the Rising Sun" by Peter Scott, the tail markings are a match for 57 Shimbu-Tai, or "Special Attack Unit" -
which leaves no doubt about it being kamikaze. Oddly, the unit really was equipped with Ki84s, which perhaps indicates the severity of Japanese desparation at this point in the War.

Because of the nature of these units, markings were often colorful images of winged bombs, arrows, eagles, death's heads, etc. Slogans and the names of aircrew were often painted on the aircraft immediately prior to the final flight ("Must Sink").
Formation leaders' planes generally carried bright lightning flashes on the fuselage to aid in recognition.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: TexMurphy on March 29, 2005, 09:25:11 AM: oboe

The difference in attitude is based on "family history". Doesnt have to be directly family history but the closer it gets to home court the more sencitive it is.

For me personally it took me a very long time before I could even fly german planes, still not overly comfortable in doing so.

Tex
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 29, 2005, 09:38:17 AM: Tex,

I hear ya. I wasn't trying to be judgemental about either; I just thought it was interesting how these two 'extremes' are represented in posts right next to each other. Kweassa's post was long and thoughtful, while Moot's was more of a puncuation mark, short and direct, but expressing the opposite POV. I'm not sure there is a right or wrong here, like you say it depends on the person and their history.

The truth is, whatever we think doesn't count for much anyway, because HTC will ulitmately have to make the call if someone does skin this plane. I don't think I'd skin it, and don't think I'd even fly it in the game now that I know its history, but I won't be offended if someone else does. It is after all a game, and people approach it with different levels of seriousness.

Actually, the game mechanics do not even support kamikaze-style attacks, right? You have to drop your ordnance from some minimum altitude to make it effective?
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on March 29, 2005, 09:44:47 AM: There might be a corelation between that dogfighting strategy and being a forum troll, yeah.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: TexMurphy on March 29, 2005, 09:50:02 AM: Quote
Originally posted by oboe
Tex,

I hear ya. I wasn't trying to be judgemental about either; I just thought it was interesting how these two 'extremes' are represented in posts right next to each other. Kweassa's post was long and thoughtful, while Moot's was more of a puncuation mark, short and direct, but expressing the opposite POV. I'm not sure there is a right or wrong here, like you say it depends on the person and their history.

The truth is, whatever we think doesn't count for much anyway, because HTC will ulitmately have to make the call if someone does skin this plane. I don't think I'd skin it, and don't think I'd even fly it in the game now that I know its history, but I won't be offended if someone else does. It is after all a game, and people approach it with different levels of seriousness.

Actually, the game mechanics do not even support kamikaze-style attacks, right? You have to drop your ordnance from some minimum altitude to make it effective?

It really is an intereting subject that HTC really needs to consider.

If not for ToDs in the Pacific.

Personally I find the entire usage of Kamikaze pilots very disturbing to say the least. But that said the skin is cool and Id propably fly it.

Id feel much more comfy flying it then german planes.

Strange how people work. But I wouldnt object the slightest if it kamikaze skins got banned.

Id understand it much more then the "Itsy Bitsy II", which I still dont understand why it was "banned" (I do in theory understand it but not in common sence way).

Tex
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on March 29, 2005, 09:52:04 AM: Bombs have to travel +-400yds last I checked.

I understand Kweassa's pov and relate to it, but when I'm sitting in front of my joystick and pick a skin in the hangar, it comes down to what my pixel-avatar is going to look like to the guy I'll virtually shoot down.
The Swatiska I might have second thoughts about using, then again it's just pixels in a pixelized rendition of WWII; I don't mix it and the RL relations I might/would have with each real player.

There's a skull+bones on the back of the lancaster, it's doubtful anyone took issue to that or any other noseart/paint from "PC" political regimes etc that're taken for granted as humane.

And like you said HTC is the final arbitrary.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on March 29, 2005, 09:55:28 AM: 3/400 yards is more or less 1kft which I also remember as the min. distance bombs must travel to arm.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 29, 2005, 10:43:29 AM: You guys are right - it is strange how people work. I think its a really colorful and attractive Ki84 skin, but now that I know it was kamikaze, I have second thoughts about it. I think its because I read some pretty gruesome personal accounts of the result of a kamikaze attack on the USS Franklin, and read that document of instructions given to kamikaze pilots, which was simply a tool for brainwashing the pilots, IMO. It just reminds me of stuff that I'd rather not think about when I want to enjoy myself playing the game. It's funny, the swastika doesn't have the same impact on me. It was on every Luftwaffe plane, and didn't indicate the pilot was a Nazi. So the pixel/avatar thinking works for me sometimes, but I guess in a few cases it just doesn't, and the only reason I could offer for that is sometimes I've personalized what I've read about and other times have not. And I don't know why that would be. Maybe it was the writer's style that allowed you really to put yourself in the situation?

In general I wouldn't favor banning skins, but then again I don't have to field the complaints the HTC does if they put in something controversial. I figure they know what they're doing and leave it at that. Arguing with HTC wouldn't get me anywhere anyway.

Moot, your point about the dogfighting strategy and forum troll went right over my head, sorry. But thanks for the info on the bomb arming distance - so a player can't really duplicate kamikaze tactics even if they wanted to. The crashing aircraft does no damage, only the bombs would have an effect.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Sp4de on March 29, 2005, 12:12:27 PM: Sorry for causing all this.. I didnt know and did not want to offend.
-Spade
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on March 29, 2005, 12:24:04 PM: Oboe,

Are you refering to the final hit on Franklin that almost sank her and took her out of the war? If so, that was not a kamikaze as I have read it. What I understand is that a D4Y "Judy" dive bomber dove out of the clouds and hit her, then escaped into those clouds.

If that is not what you are refering to I am not familiar with the incedent you are talking about.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: 1redrum on March 29, 2005, 12:29:41 PM: history be dammed ,being PC is whats important,,,lets just rewrite history as to not offend anyone,,then after a while the true history will be forgotten,,,so we can repete it ,,all history however unpleasent should be written drawn and pictured for the ages lest we forget and repet the same mistakes,,,and how the "paint scheeme "on a AC can offend is beond me,,,
what i find offencive is that people are willing to ignore history because it "is in bad taste",,,politicaly correctness will be the downfall of man,grow some balls do the skin remember ALL Vets and their sacrafices.keep there stories alive lest we never forget,and never repete
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 29, 2005, 01:41:42 PM: I'm not offended by any of this discussion - even if someone skins the kamikaze plane and HTC puts it in the game I wouldn't be offended.

I do try to remember the vet's sacrifices on all sides, and appreciate those who document their experiences with words and pictures. That is how I became acquainted with the horrors of kamikaze attacks in the first place. Some things I just don't feel are appropriate for a game though - for example firebombing civilians and the dropping of atomic bombs, the ability to shoot chutes, having to destroy churches in AH towns to capture them (I'm not sure if AH2 towns have churches, but AH1's did), or kamikaze planes. But that is my view only and I can respect a difference of opinion on the issue.

Karnak sorry, the story I refer to was in a free volume of Military History I had a few years ago, but didn't hang on to. I wouldn't bet my life that it was the Franklin, though thats what I remember (could it have been the Bunker Hill?). Anyway the description of the carnage created by the impact was very graphic, and there were photos as well. I remember one description of a sailor who had been blown in half at the waist, dragging his torso to the edge of the flight deck under his own power just so he could throw himself off the deck and drown in the sea. Just gruesome and sad.

I know there are plenty of gruesome stories related to about any aspect of warfare you care to to think about, but that image really stuck with me for some reason.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on March 29, 2005, 02:57:59 PM: Oboe,

I too have read some pretty gruesome things resulting from kamikaze attacks.

But when you get right down to it, the fact that it was a kamikaze instead of a bomb makes no difference to the horror that it produces.

1redrum,

Not everything is about politics.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: killnu on March 29, 2005, 03:13:34 PM: not necessarily about politics, i agree, but thats not what he said. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=politically%20correct (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=politically%20correct)
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 29, 2005, 05:10:27 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Oboe,

I too have read some pretty gruesome things resulting from kamikaze attacks.

But when you get right down to it, the fact that it was a kamikaze instead of a bomb makes no difference to the horror that it produces.

Agreed.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on March 29, 2005, 06:49:02 PM: Let's not jump to conclusions.

The previous post was a refutal to what Hawklore said. That kind of view on the Kamikaze was plain wrong, and it's exactly what the Japanese propaganda spewed during the days - and even after the days - of the war. It was to offer a more detailed view on the reality of the Kamikaze, not about what it should be in this game.

I'm a game=game, history=history guy. I can tell the difference between the two, and like I mentioned in other posts, I don't mind if someone made that skin and flew it in the game. Heck, I like Swastikas on my German planes. I love the Communist symbols and slogans on the Russian planes and tanks, and the Fascist symbols on the Condor Legion's 109s. It doesn't mean I'm a Nazi, Commie, Fascio.. etc..

...

It's just that for a variety of reasons, I won't want to make a skin of a plane which its pilot were meant to die. It's not exactly about the morality of it all, but something to with self-pride. And mostly, that scheme doesn't intrigue me at all. Maybe if the overall tone was more fitting with the usual IJAAF olive-drab I might do it..

Think of it as this way. I like making 190 and 109 skins, but I won't be interested in making a pink 109 or pink 190, even if such thing really existed. Doesn't feel all that cool to me, or even fun.

Add in the gruesome historical background to the mix and yuck! I won't want to skin that Ki84.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on March 29, 2005, 06:50:29 PM: Oh, and Spade, you don't have to feel sorry, or apologize about anything. Though I'm not interested in that one, it is a colorful scheme anyway.

I won't be surprised if other people wanted it in the game.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 29, 2005, 07:08:12 PM: Yeah, Spade - nothing to apologize for. I enjoyed doing the research on the tail insignia, as well as getting in some thinking time and discussion about kamikazes.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Hawklore on March 29, 2005, 10:18:38 PM: The only reason it should be kept off is political reasons, PC, and I know in germany your not allowed to display the swastika in games or not, does Japan have the same thing for this?
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on March 30, 2005, 01:04:29 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Hawklore
does Japan have the same thing for this?

Not so far as I've ever heard.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on March 30, 2005, 01:14:17 AM: that other thing wasn't in response to you, Oboe.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Skydancer on March 30, 2005, 06:19:46 AM: So if we are not going to model Kamikaze because of some uncomfortable feelings about the past, can we get rid of Lancs ( Dresden) B17's (Same) JU87s (those poor poles and fleeing refugees), JU88s (poor Londoners) P47's typhoons et all, (those poor German civilians fleeing the battle )And so on, and so on. Infact lets not Simulate death and destruction any more at all but turn the game into air racing or something.

Cmon this is a WW2 sim. WW2 was ugly destructive and cruel..As well as being many nations finest hour. We can't hide from it. We up every day and shoot planes piloted by fellow gamers out of the sky. Its simulated warfare. Lets not pretend otherwise. Kamikazes were part of that.

Ok I'll can it now :)
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: TexMurphy on March 30, 2005, 07:02:14 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
So if we are not going to model Kamikaze because of some uncomfortable feelings about the past, can we get rid of Lancs ( Dresden) B17's (Same) JU87s (those poor poles and fleeing refugees), JU88s (poor Londoners) P47's typhoons et all, (those poor German civilians fleeing the battle )And so on, and so on. Infact lets not Simulate death and destruction any more at all but turn the game into air racing or something.

Cmon this is a WW2 sim. WW2 was ugly destructive and cruel..As well as being many nations finest hour. We can't hide from it. We up every day and shoot planes piloted by fellow gamers out of the sky. Its simulated warfare. Lets not pretend otherwise. Kamikazes were part of that.

And since we are simmulating all this... good god is a ..i.. bad thing. Personally, note personally, I find that its rediculous to forbid a skin for the ..i.. with the context of what we are allowing.

But I do undertand that in different cultures different symbols, even words carry a different meaning to its people.

Show a swastika to a jew, a kamikazi symbol to a Japanese (even worse a korean), a ..i.. to an american ect ect.

While we are simulating war, destruction and killing we do not have to include the most powerfull negative SYMBOLS of the war. There is alot of power and negative energy tied to symbols.

Personally I cant say wether the kamikazi symbols are of the same magnitude in Asia as the Swastika is, that is up to HTC, but if it is then it really doesnt serve any purpose.

Afterall its a game that is ment to bring joy into our lifes.

Tex

Ps. when it comes to kamikaze game play in say future ToDs I think I know what the answer is even without any morale attached to it.

Does it make for fun gameplay to players on both sides of the conflict? No.

Case closed.Ds.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: CPorky on March 30, 2005, 07:35:51 AM: Actually, there was a scenario where players flew kamikaze aircraft and flew them into ships offshore. I could hazard a guess on which one it was, but I'm not positively sure. (I only knew I walked on into a C-Hog and landed 17 scalps in a single run and those weren't even the kamikaze aircraft) :D

Lets face it, the reason alot of stuff gets denied is because HTC wants a paycheck, I accept and respect that. They don't want parents, governments, or special interest groups going after them. I'm not sure who they would offend with this kamikaze skin, however...

Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
when it comes to kamikaze game play in say future ToDs I think I know what the answer is even without any morale attached to it.

Does it make for fun gameplay to players on both sides of the conflict? No.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: mechanic on March 30, 2005, 07:57:52 AM: good looking skin.

i hope we dont offend any Kamikaze veterans who might read these boards......
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 30, 2005, 08:25:03 AM: SkyDancer's POV is perfectly valid I think. Its not for me due to the conscripted and suicidal nature of kamikaze missions, but he is right - its a game based on WWII and kamikaze was a part of that conflict.

Coupla points:

Is there really such a thing as a "kamikaze symbol", akin to the nazi swastika? My research leads me to believe there wasn't - that kamikaze planes were more colorfully painted and had slogans or crew names applied before the final flight, but there was no single symbol meaning "kamikaze". I identifed a unit insignia on the tail of the above Ki.84 that indicates it was from 'Special Attack Unit 57', but other Shimbu-Tai's had their own, unique insignias...

Also, HTC hasn't made any statements to my knowledge about barring skins associated with kamikaze units so any assumptions we make are premature. All we have in this thread is a striking Ki.84 scheme identifed as being from a kamikaze unit and a couple of skinners declining interest in skinning it for that reason. A simple and polite email to Skuzzy may get HTC to establish an official position, or any willing skinner could take the time to make the skin and submit it and see what HTC says.

Whatever decision HTC makes I hope people will be mature about and accept without creating a fuss, because AH is HTC's livelihood and I know they weigh these issues carefully and make the best choice they can, given the dilemma. One side will have to accept that the decision is not what they prefer, and move on.

Here's another question to think about: Eventually, AH2 will get the B-29 Superfortress (I hope). So would you like to see a skinner do "Enola Gay" or "Bock's Car" - the Superforts that dropped the atomic bombs? They are the most famous B-29s, but I already know I wouldn't touch these skins - even if HTC modelled the A-bomb (which I doubt they would ever do, but still). Those skins are just too much of a focal point on a still emotionally-supercharged issue. Something else to consider - I wonder if the maturity we show as a community when we discuss this issue will affect whether or not the B-29 ever makes it into the game. If HTC sees we that cannot even hold a calm, rational discussion about it, they may decide its one can of worms not worth opening...
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Dinky2003 on March 30, 2005, 09:27:16 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Hawklore
The only reason it should be kept off is political reasons, PC, and I know in germany your not allowed to display the swastika in games or not, does Japan have the same thing for this?

No. Japan isn't afraid of it's history like Germany is. Having been over there myself, I can safely say that.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: straffo on March 30, 2005, 09:49:01 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Dinky2003
No. Japan isn't afraid of it's history like Germany is. Having been over there myself, I can safely say that.

Ignorant.

You're just completly wrong it's in fact the other way around.

Japan don't not look back at it's history ,Japan continue to negate what have been done in Korea for example.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Dinky2003 on March 30, 2005, 10:17:44 AM: Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Ignorant.

You're just completly wrong it's in fact the other way around.

Japan don't not look back at it's history ,Japan continue to negate what have been done in Korea for example.

But do they censor the media that talks about those events? No.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: straffo on March 30, 2005, 11:13:35 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Dinky2003
But do they censor the media that talks about those events? No.

And the German censor the media ?
No.

The German have done a work on their memory the Japanase still have not started.

Have the Japanese done this : http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/

Or something similar ?
Not yet.

Will they do something like that in the future ?
I don't know
Perhaps it's against their culture ?
Who knows ?
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Dinky2003 on March 30, 2005, 11:19:44 AM: Quote
Originally posted by straffo
And the German censor the media ?
No.

The German have done a work on their memory the Japanase still have not started.

Have the Japanese done this : http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/

Or something similar ?
Not yet.

Will they do something like that in the future ?
I don't know
Perhaps it's against their culture ?
Who knows ?

Games are a form of media. The Germans do not allow any games that have anything related to the Nazis into their country. Until recently, Germany didn't even allow blood and death to be depicted in games. Also, Germany is hesitant to air anything related to the Nazi's history in WWII.

Also, if you go to Japan, there are many monuments and museums dedicated to their history, even if they contain stuff related to their "darker" moments in history.

Unfortunately I cannot view that website on Firefox, so I could not tell you if Japan has a similar project.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Hawklore on March 30, 2005, 11:21:32 AM: Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
good looking skin.

i hope we dont offend any Kamikaze veterans who might read these boards......

Thats bad.. really bad...

-Figured I had to add a smiley because I laughed at it..-

:)
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: mechanic on March 30, 2005, 11:44:17 AM: :D
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: straffo on March 30, 2005, 01:20:19 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Dinky2003
Games are a form of media. The Germans do not allow any games that have anything related to the Nazis into their country. Until recently, Germany didn't even allow blood and death to be depicted in games. Also, Germany is hesitant to air anything related to the Nazi's history in WWII.

wrong and again wrong.
Game are entertainment not education.

You just have to open an hisory manual used by a German to now they learn their history including the darkest parts.

Quote
Also, if you go to Japan, there are many monuments and museums dedicated to their history, even if they contain stuff related to their "darker" moments in history.

lookup this : Ienaga Saburô

Quote
Unfortunately I cannot view that website on Firefox, so I could not tell you if Japan has a similar project.

I'm myself using Firefox 1.0.2. and have no trouble at all (except some translation difficulties but the picture don't need translation)

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; fr-FR; rv:1.7.6) Gecko/20050318 Firefox/1.0.2
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: oboe on March 30, 2005, 02:03:26 PM: Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
good looking skin.

i hope we dont offend any Kamikaze veterans who might read these boards......

When in played Warbirds and was a member of 27th Sentai, we had a Japanese squadmate who had an uncle who never returned from his kamikaze mission.

Just sayin'.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Dinky2003 on March 30, 2005, 02:09:39 PM: Quote
Originally posted by straffo
wrong and again wrong.
Game are entertainment not education.

You just have to open an hisory manual used by a German to now they learn their history including the darkest parts.

lookup this : Ienaga Saburô

I'm myself using Firefox 1.0.2. and have no trouble at all (except some translation difficulties but the picture don't need translation)

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; fr-FR; rv:1.7.6) Gecko/20050318 Firefox/1.0.2
[/B]

Computer games are not purely entertainment. You can learn things from even some FPS games. On top of that, simulators are considered to be a valid form of education. If this were the 1980's, yes, I'd agree with you.

This is not the case now.

Yeah, you can open a Japanese history book and find out about the darker parts of their history too. *gasp*

Looked up that author, he wrote a book about the expansion of Japan into Asia before and during WW2. Point being?

I've been to Japan, and I know what I saw. They're not afraid of their history, they don't confine it to the history books, and they certainly don't throw a fit over a video game depicting a kamikaze attack, or similar events. The Germans on the otherhand, throw the slightest fit over a swastika or a game that even MENTIONS what Hitler did while in charge of Germany.

The website does not work on Firefox for me. I don't know why, but my computer is wacky when it comes to errors.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: indy007 on March 30, 2005, 02:28:30 PM: It's a good looking skin. I'd fly it... but what do I know, I'd fly a neon pink b17 with bullseye's all over it if they let me.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on March 30, 2005, 09:41:38 PM: Quote
I've been to Japan, and I know what I saw. They're not afraid of their history, they don't confine it to the history books, and they certainly don't throw a fit over a video game depicting a kamikaze attack, or similar events.

That's because most of the ultra-right wing militaristic war-time politicians in Japan have never faced proper judgement from the law. All of them(with a few exceptions, such as Tojo Hideki) were released scot-free after the initial trials, bred two~three generations of younger ultra right-wingers, who now consist the majority of Japanese politicians.

Germany has almost no remnant of the old Nazis left in their political circle. Japan however, (when it comes to politics. The Japanese people, is a different story) has ALL of their remnants still left.

Ofcourse they don't go hush-hush into these kind of stuff. They promote it everyday. The same type of propaganda is still alive after 60 years.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on March 30, 2005, 10:30:31 PM: What Kweassa said.

A lot of people don't realize that once the communists started getting a leg into post-war Japanese society we backed off the war time government and turned to them to keep the communists out, as they knew how to do it.

There were political reasons for it.

Japan has never come to honest terms with what it did in the '30s and '40s.

Some Japanese have. I recall Flying Dutchman here on this board condemning his government for not being honest about what happened. But the Japanese nation has not.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: straffo on March 31, 2005, 01:10:25 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Dinky2003
Computer games are not purely entertainment. You can learn things from even some FPS games. On top of that, simulators are considered to be a valid form of education. If this were the 1980's, yes, I'd agree with you.

This is not the case now.

But it's your perception , not the perception of the German :)

Quote
Yeah, you can open a Japanese history book and find out about the darker parts of their history too. *gasp*

Looked up that author, he wrote a book about the expansion of Japan into Asia before and during WW2. Point being?
[/B]

Well I expected you to find articles like this one : http://www.indiana.edu/~japan/Digests/textbook.html

Quote
I've been to Japan, and I know what I saw. They're not afraid of their history, they don't confine it to the history books, and they certainly don't throw a fit over a video game depicting a kamikaze attack, or similar events. The Germans on the otherhand, throw the slightest fit over a swastika or a game that even MENTIONS what Hitler did while in charge of Germany.[/b]

Please look at Kweassa post above , it describe perfectly my thought.
I've nothing against the Japanese as individuals I've lot of respect for some Japanese player and will wing with them without any afterthought.
It's just the society wich I've trouble with.
As Karnak wrote some like Fdutchmn have a clear vision of their past , like I as a French I know (and I'm ashamed) what happened in Algeria for example

Quote
The website does not work on Firefox for me. I don't know why, but my computer is wacky when it comes to errors. [/B]

Any error message ?
If any send me a mail to sort this out : fdejager(at)cegetel.net
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: TexMurphy on March 31, 2005, 02:35:07 AM: Speakin of nations that havent delt with their WW2 time.

Sweden.

My god do I get pissed everytime I think about it.

Neutral. Yeah right. Do you really think a nation beeing neutral would have stopped germany from invading it?

Sweden was basicly in a economical union with germany. We supplied germany with ore and lumber. Plus that we allowed free passage for german train convoys to Norway.

Pre WW2 Sweden was a poor country. The reason we are a well beeing country today has its roots back in the WW2 politics. While all of europe got drained economically and infrastructuraly sweden didnt suffer nearly as much. Sure we had shortages as the rest of the world but our export industry was picking up and our infrastructure was improving.

This closed the gap between rest of europe and sweden. Then during the post war years in the 40s and during the 50s swedens economy started taking of much faster then rest of europe as most of europe was still rebuilding.

That is how sweden went from a poor european country to a economicaly strong country.

Also the swedish voulenteers that fought in WW2 fought for two nations Finland and Germany. Fighting for Finland is natural since its a "brotherhood country" but the support was strong for germany among both people and government. Ofcourse the government has never officially said it supported sweden nor has it delt with the facts that the only reason sweden never got occupied was a more or less economical alliance with germany.

Pisses the poooooooooop out of me.
Tex
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: straffo on March 31, 2005, 02:47:03 AM: All nations have skeleton in the closet ,and some need to clean up (my country included)
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Engine on April 04, 2005, 06:18:03 AM: Mine is infallible! :)

I think that Ki84 is absolutely gorgeous, but I probably wouldn't fly it. Too tragic.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Schutt on April 04, 2005, 07:52:48 AM: Looks perfect to me to suicide kill troops. Concerning that the ki 84 falls apart in steep dives in ah2 it would not be to difficult to auger while dive bombing a capital ship.

I think having kamikaze skin in the game would be ok as it can remind you of how the kamikaze actually sufferd during the war. It would constantly spin off such discussions. I did not know that they had korean kamikaze pilots nor did i know that they were forced to do it most of the times. So i already learned from the thread.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: FDutchmn on April 05, 2005, 04:42:33 AM: Quote
originally posted by Hawklore:
Divine Wind...

It's sort of like a Holy Knight on a single crusade..

They had guts to do it, just like we had guts to land on Iwo Jima...

Skin it, don't be PC, PC is stupid..

I hope this helps...

First of all, this forum is about skins and sounds. I will try to keep this post within bounds of the purpose of the forum.

Now, the origins of the word kamikaze. http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~gensei/genko.htm This is a simple page which maintained by an individual. It has the jist of how the word came around. Originally, it was a word to describe the phenomenon that prevented Genghis Khan from invading Japan. Twice were Khan's fleet destroyed by typhoons. This led to the belief that God's or Divine Wind (kami = Holy, God, Divine. kaze = wind) saved Japan from invasion.

When this word was applied as we know it in WW2 (Kamikaze Tokkoutai = Kamikaze Special Attack Unit), it was in the belief or wish of preventing an invasion. As Kweassa accurately described, most of them, if not all, were not for the idea of dying and they were in their late teens. It was crazy times which led people to force each other into one direction. The word Kamikaze was a catch phrase to get people going into the idea of protecting the country from invasion. Fear dictated such drastic action which as we know it today, it was the most idiotic thing to do. It was crazy times which led to crazy measures. People knew it back then, but what was the alternative? Live in defeat and in uncertainty of what might happen or die gloriously as you know it? People made sure that it was glorified in order to justify such crazy action. This is likewise for Seppuku or Harakiri.

It was the case that many a times, people did not know where the orders came from. For example, I read an account of a pilot on the M6A1 Aichi Seiran bomber. This bomber could be launched from the I-400 class submarine carrier and he was the leader of his unit. Because the training of the pilots for the M6A1 was exceptional and quite costly, top command said that these pilots were not to be expended in Kamikaze attacks. However, one night, the pilot found his crew tinkering with the bomber so that the bomb could not be released. When he demanded to know, the crew could not answer. When the orders were cascaded down, it was changed without anyone being able to tell who changed it or why. It was just is. Doing Kamikaze attacks became the norm as it was crazy times.

Kamikaze, while glorified, symbolizes the worst times in Japanese history. I think we can see the difference between a knight on a crusade to save the holy city of Jerusalem and a pilot on a Kamikaze mission.

Now, then onto "censorship" or would HTC find such skins appropriate for use in AH, online at least. Is this comparable with the Swastika? I don't think so... The Swastika is banned because it symbolized a regime that brought much despair in Europe. It use is prohibited by law in Germany for fear that it would be idolized again. What I can say about the slogan or wording on the plane is that Kamikaze is what we did onto ourselves. While it does symbolize the saddest times of Japanese history, there is no law for it, unlike for the Swastika. Therefore, it is a question whether HTC would like to use AH as a media to promote such discussion. On the BBS, this is possible. However, if you ask me if I would like to see that online, as AH is a very graphic game, I would say it would make me cringe. I believe Mitsu would feel the same as Karnak described his conversation with him. Case of point, http://www.snobuy.com/dg9/dg9-1.html, I am not sure if you can read the Japanese description, however, it does describe the wording "Hicchin" (Must Sink) as "Itaitashi" (meaning it hurts). I would not sure if the word offensive is the right word to describe this but it seems rather raw.

that's my two cents...
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Nath_____ on April 05, 2005, 07:06:47 AM: DAMN that's a chintzy looking skin.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on April 06, 2005, 04:53:34 PM: An example of the Japanese government's refusal to be honest about Japanese actions in WWII:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/04/06/international/i132653D02.DTL
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: FDutchmn on April 06, 2005, 05:48:43 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
An example of the Japanese government's refusal to be honest about Japanese actions in WWII:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/04/06/international/i132653D02.DTL

thanks, Karnak. I was avoid this part of the discussion in light of the scope of this forum. However, now that you mention it let me comment on it as well.

We still got lots of problems we need to address. The article you kindly posted the link to is one of those problems, especially if we want to grow internationally. I think (probably an amatuer-ish assumption) is that we are an island country which makes travel difficult into and out of the country, thereby making cultural exchange a bit more difficult. This is different from Germany where people can just walk across the border. It is my hopes that we are now in a position that we cannot avoid talking about such issues.

Did you know that it was forbidden by law in Korea to have cultural exchange with Japan until we both co-hosted the World Cup? Until then we didn't get much Korean movies or TV, even artifacts from their national museum. Now, there is a "Korea Boom" now in Japan. We hear music on the radio, etc. It is now changing. I hope that we will be able to get somewhere with our past.

There are somethings which bother me of course, like the govenor of Tokyo is very militaristic and our present Prime Minister has ties with the former Prime Minister who wore battle fatigues during Disaster Prevention day, which is otherwise a civil event. Now, we are talking about changing the constitution so we can legally have a military force to send to places like Iraq and do a pre-emptive strike against North Korea. For me, we shouldn't be even doing that until we talk and settle key issues about our past, although I don't think we should be changing our constitution anyway.

well, that's it for now... i gots to go to work... I am willing to chat, but please allow me some time to compose a thoughtful response.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Kweassa on April 06, 2005, 09:50:00 PM: This thread may yet turn into a political one, but what's interesting is I am from Korea, right next to Japan, and both FD and me have a chance to share our views on this matter. It's not often Koreans and Japanese actually have a chance to talk about this stuff - which we usually avoid, in the presence of one another. (and the fact that both are fluent in at least one common language, so there's no trouble in sharing opinions)

What worries the Korean people, in the article Karnak has linked, is that the new history textbooks are 'revisioned' by the (not sure if I translated this right) "The Society for Making New Textbooks", which its political/cultural heritage almost directly descends from days of 19th century expansionists. The annexation of the Korean peninsula in 1910, was not a singular event. There has been a history of expansionist ideals in Japan which existed for at least more than a generation, before finally Korea came under military rule of Japan in 1910. These political lines, have never been properly severred, or brought under justice, and still thrives in Japanese politics today.

This is the reason why the Asian countries near Japan, are ever so watchful of its action. Nazi Germany, was brought under justice. While the 'hunt' still goes on nowadays(it was not an uncommon thing to see in the German news articles that a hidden Nazi collaborator had been recently uncovered, and brought to justice, despite after all these years!), most of the Nazi remnants have been completely washed away from German politics.

Japan, was a different case. It's militaristic leaders were spared, and came to power again - this time, as collaborators to the US rule.

This exact same thing happened in Korea between 1948~1950, where Korean collaborators to the Japanese Empire, were on the verge of facing punishment on grounds of high treason, when the first Government of modern Korea offered them amnesty. They emerged again as public officials, this time, as collaborators to the Government and the US military rule, and became useful hunting dogs in dishing out the Socialist/Communist ingredient in Southern Korea - whom, were the people that struggled most fiercely in the peninsula in efforts to gain independance.

A sinister comedy broke out where the people who fought for independance, in a country which recently gained that independance, were now being arrested and prosecuted by the same people who had arrested and prosecuted them when the country was under Japanese rule.

This grim past was forbidden to discussion until the recent democratic changes in Korea. Thus, the Korean people are now aware of how important it is to set the history right, and bring past sins to face justice... and even today, there is a strong resistance to this "Righting Past Wrongs" movement from the old conservatives of Korea. These rightwing conservatives, who take up all of the most importance spots in the Korean society, ranging from powerful economists to politicians and journalists, are the same people that became rich and powerful as collaborators to the Japanese Empire, the US Military rule, and the Anti-communist witch hunt Government during 1948~1992.

Most of the Americans do not understand why Germany or France, or other European countries are so jittery about dealing with its old Nazi past. They think that it is an overkill, or foolish thing to do, which in fact, is not.

Take the current Japanese politicians for example.

The Prime Minister of Japan, Goizumi Junichiro, is the son of Goizumi Junya. He was the former Minister of Defense, with close ties to Fukuda Dakeo, the Prime Minister of Japan in the '70s. Fukuda Dakeo himself, is closely affiliated to people like Sato Eisaku or Gishi Nobusuke. These people all form a 'group' of the ultra-rightwing militarists, from Yoshida Shigeru, who served as Prime Minister of Japan for 5 terms after the war. Before the war, he was on a diplomatic mission to Great Britain.

All of the current politicians, and the members of the staff, are either direct family members of the above politicians, or were influenced/taught by them. All of the high-ranking Japanese politicians, come from this rightwing group. Not a single PM, ever came from outside this group.

And what are these guys saying?

* Japan does not need to 'apologize' to any country
* The past must be considered as a past
* Japan needs its own nuclear arsenal
* Japan needs to build up its own military
* Japan needs to be proud of its (military) history
* The annexation of Asian countries during the days of war, was for Asia's own good.
* The grief and suffering the Japanese military rule did to its colonies, is grossly exaggerated.
* Any attempts to bring up such grim history to light, is an outrage and an ill intent to destroy the integrity of Japan

and etc etc..

In this context, Japan is now firing up a territorial dispute regarding an island which has been Korean territory for more than a millenia, and is currently being governed by Korea...some more territorial dispute against China and Russia, and it's also changing its history textbooks.

....

History, is not a dead thing, at least in this part of the world.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Rolex on April 07, 2005, 01:40:44 AM: Oh no... don't get me started.

I can understand and respect FDutchman's views. I will say that his english fluency must come from living overseas and being exposed to a different persective than if he had never been overseas.

Sorry, but the 'island' theory is just an excuse the oyaji's use and I hope your experience overseas will allow you to challenge it. Japan continues to be an insular society - perhaps the most insular in the world - by choice.

Governor Ishihara is certainly a fool. I've heard him speak at an event and I truly believe the man is either an idiot or mentally ill. The scary part is that he was re-elected with over 70% of the vote against 19 other candidates.

Koizumi is a wolf in sheep's clothes. Here is a man with long ties to the rightists and a man of low honor. He divorced his pregnant wife and left her, his two children and his new son in the 1980's because the LDP powerbrokers told him that she was not a good wife for a politician. He has even refused to meet the (now grown) son born after the divorce.

The changes to the textbooks are astounding. I have seen a tremendous change in Japan over the last decade and this shift to punishing teachers for not singing Kimigayo loud enough and other ridiculous things are not good for Japan.

The politicians are manipulating public opinion now to stir up nationalism because the younger generation will be taihen when the oyaji's want to retire. Half of a generation of freeters will find a difficult economy when they are in their late 30's and 40's and won't be able to survive, let alone support all the old, retired onara's. :)

All politicians try to stir up irrational nationalism when times seem bad. The Nazis did it and Japan did it during the world depression.

Quite frankly, I've had enough of this recent crop of cheap carnival tricksters in the US, UK, Japan, France and Korea. But, let me clear about this: Japan's right wing dominated LDP are not acting in the best interest of Japan. They will definitely succeed in molding the minds of the kids with this revisionist nonsense. That will only create more problems for them when they are adults.

I'm not sure about the kamikaze skin. I have to give it some more thought.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: FDutchmn on April 08, 2005, 08:25:40 PM: Quote
originally posted by Rolex
Sorry, but the 'island' theory is just an excuse the oyaji's use and

oh Rolex, ya call me an oyaji!? Sheesh, I didn't think I was that old... :)

Quote
originally posted by Rolex
Japan continues to be an insular society - perhaps the most insular in the world - by choice.

yes, I agree... it is more by choice today, rather than a physical barrier especially with all the mass transportation and information highway available today. Not to forget that we have mass imports of material from all parts of the world. However, I would not characterize it as an excuse just yet, because it still is very real as behavior of people. It helps them set the scope of work, laws, standards, etc. It is just inherent on behavior. To quote Dr. Edwin Reichauer from his book The Japanese Today, "Japan's isolation is now only a psychological remanant."

However, this must change... and soon, as we have a shortage labor force. Soon, we will be importing people together with their ideas, etc. not just material. If we don't open up our society, we will not be doing that adequately.

Quote
originally posted by Kweassa
What worries the Korean people, in the article Karnak has linked, is that the new history textbooks are 'revisioned' by the (not sure if I translated this right) "The Society for Making New Textbooks", which its political/cultural heritage almost directly descends from days of 19th century expansionists.

If I take this pessimistically, this is a huge problem that we have been seeing again and again. This is no good... However, if I take this optimistically, it is now provoking communication between Korea and Japan. For example, just yesterday morning, there was news on NHK, the national TV station, that both Korea and Japan has decided to setup a research team in order to come to a common understanding on history. This could have been attempted before, but if it has it hasn't succeeded yet. However, we have to try this again and again.

Where I get this kind of optimism, is what I saw on TV. I forget the name of the show... it was where Beat Takeshi, a comedian in Japan, got representatives from different countries and basically provoke them to talk, on sensitive topics like our Prime Minister visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which holds remains of Class A War Criminals, and textbook issues. The show as in the beginning... ugly, at least by Japanese standards... people yelling at each other, interjecting while the other was speaking. It was more throwing and clashing of opinions, without listening. However, one of the comments made was something to the extent that we have to talk, even amongst the Japanese, in order for us to go somewhere.

It is the case that I also have difficulty talking about such issues even amongst my colleagues at work. This is not something that is easy to bring up. I did manage to discuss briefly on the skin issue, though. I brought it up because I noticed that the word Kamikaze seemed to be associated with the Navy rather than the Army, and I ask two guys what they knew about the word. We didn't have an answer to that question but I explained why I brought it up, explained the game AH2, and what is being talked about. They said that there is no way to stop someone from using the skin, but they wouldn't like people using it without knowing that wording meant.

If I don't bring it up like that, we usually don't talk about such issues. People in Japan tend to avoid such issues... why?... probably because it is not pleasant to talk about. We really have to get the energy and the guts to admit our wrong doings. The easiest way to deal with such confrontation is to say that we were coarsed into the war, and that we had no other choice, etc. which is probably what we see usually. If this is handled wrongly, it ends up in placing politicians like Gov. Ishihara as head of Tokyo. He does have good policies for pollution control like cutting down on diesel engines in Tokyo, but I do not agree with his views on military and history.

Anyway, back to optimism, it was on that same TV show I think... where they were interviewing a woman from Southeast Asia who married a Japanese man. She was introduced to his mother and the mother asked her how she felt about Japan. The woman being young said outright about Japan not apologizing for the war and that she was not happy about that. The mother, astounded and shocked, got down on her knees and apologized profuriously for what happened in WW2. What struck me the most is not what the mother did but how the hosts of the show reacted to this interview. There was a bit of silence, some of them had tears in their eyes and one of them said, "I am relieved that someone could actually say that [the apology]".

While it is a subject that is hard to bring up, I do have some friends who shares my views. A colleague of mine who I worked with during my graduate school came from Nagasaki. He carries a Hibakusha card (certification that he is a decendant or a victim of the atomic bomb). He gets to have medical treatment paid by the national government. I have high respect for him. I would have expected him to be nationalistic, especially if he felt victimized. On contrary it was the other way around, maybe because he was from Nagasaki, which was the only open port in Japan when we secluded ourselves from the rest of the world. He was the type of person who says that we have to apologize and set things right, to get on with our lives.

On the dark side, about 10 years ago, the Mayor of Nagasaki openly criticized that the emperor has not apologized for WW2. He was shot by a ultra-rightist.

A couple of years ago, we shot and sank a North Korean spy boat. This was retrieved from the ocean floor and was displayed in Tokyo. I went to see it with a colleague of mine and I was not happy about his comment that this justifies that we need a military. Well, these guys were coming to Japan to sell drugs and we are buying from them. Although, they have military backup, they are here on business.

We recently had a Chinese submarine infringing Japanese territorial waters. This incident was not really helpful...

There is a rekindling of territorial disputes like Kweassa mentions... well, I could go on and on... but I need a break from this... I donno how to conclude but this is what I think... I think this is enough... for the moment at least...
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Karnak on April 08, 2005, 08:42:46 PM: Thanks Kweassa, Flying Dutchman. It is very interesting to read these things from the perspectives of Korean and Japanese people, not filtered by US News as merely a minor bit of distant data.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on April 09, 2005, 03:10:30 PM: In any case, it's very much kamikaze to fly into 5:1 odds, purpose which this plane serves well.

I'd definitely use this camo, for the same reason I use the G2 cow camo.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: FDutchmn on April 10, 2005, 07:02:57 AM: Quote
Originally posted by moot
In any case, it's very much kamikaze to fly into 5:1 odds, purpose which this plane serves well.

I'd definitely use this camo, for the same reason I use the G2 cow camo.

geez, moot... it's too bad that you cannot see the difference between flying against all odds and flying to die.

Given that, why don't you do it? And submit to HTC and see if they would have it online. Kweassa already declined to do so, because lord knows it could very well be that in that actual plane was Korean pilot whose name was just disguised as a Japanese!
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: FDutchmn on April 17, 2005, 10:21:20 PM: Just something that I picked up today in the Newspapers....

Ex-kamikaze pilot hits peace note (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20050418wo34.htm)
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: moot on April 23, 2005, 03:00:28 PM: I'm not doing it because I don't have the time nor the patience to do it well.
I appreciate the difference, and it doesn't bother me; everyone dies, expectedly or not.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Mustaine on April 27, 2006, 02:13:27 PM: here's the thread about the kamakaze skin....

notice it is the same plane as in the new thread.

read the whole discussion, i did last time :eek:
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Krusty on April 28, 2006, 01:34:52 PM: I re-read it (read most of it last time, forgot which skin it was lol).

I'm still doing the skin.

If HTC rejects it, so be it. if they accept it, I will fly with it.
Title: Woah! look at this ki84!
Post by: Mustaine on April 28, 2006, 02:55:05 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I re-read it (read most of it last time, forgot which skin it was lol).

I'm still doing the skin.

If HTC rejects it, so be it. if they accept it, I will fly with it.

ok...

in case you missed in your other thread though:

Quote
Originally posted by FDutchmn
Ever since this topic has been brought up again, I have been surfing the web to seek answers to some of the questions that has been brought up on this thread.... ...although I myself may be too sensitive about it. I wish not that your work or AH would be associated with them(just saying)...