Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Mickey on December 04, 2006, 06:27:10 PM
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Just a quick whine here to those that drop and pop. Last night I am flying a jug and with my usual alt monkey skills I climb to around 20K to ingress into the target. As I am inbound I catch a friendly B24 formation, about 2k below, coming off the target. I assume he is heading back to base to land his mission.
I then spot an enemy Spit coalt with me who has eyes for the 24s. I wep it up and dive a bit to get some speed. I catch the spit as he starts to open up on the buffs. I am about 800 back but I give him a quick burst to hopfully change his mind. It works and he rolls off. I pull up to conserve E and have to make a couple more passes at this spit to make sure he gets the point.
After pass 3, and a few good hits, the spit driver decides to go low and bug out. The dar bar is darn near full red so I decide to not follow and help Shepherd the 24's out of the sector. I point my nose back up and towards the formation. As I am closing to escort this guy back...he bails! As far as I can tell there is no damage to the 24's, although I guess there is the possibility of a pilot wound. However the spit was always firing from the formations 6 so that would be a slim possibility.
So, the short story is, I gave up on a kill for an ungrateful dweeb that decided to say thanks by bailing, I am sure he was itchin to get back to his LA7.
Now I know it's his 15 frog pelts and he can play however he wants, but IMHO....think before you pull this move. How many times have you flown a buff and prayed for an escort to drive off the bad guys so you can land your bomb run? Bailing after the drop when someone helped save your bacon only encourages folks to fly on by and watch as you explode.
Big Mickey
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its the new guys wanting counterstrike speed rounds that do this..
thats why everything should be perked and newbies only get the slowest planes... they would learn how to fly then.
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Guy was to lazy to RTB. Just wanted to up again ASAP. Prolly one the folks that cry "Ranks for dweebs".
Even if that is so why would you wanna be some one elses perk point. I advocate the enemy should earn your death.
Give a death away :rolleyes:
Be an enemy kill:eek:
Be a free perk point :confused:
Not for all the Tea in China :aok
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Originally posted by Overlag
its the new guys wanting counterstrike speed rounds that do this..
thats why everything should be perked and newbies only get the slowest planes... they would learn how to fly then.
Yer quick to jump on n00bs, but the problem is more so with "Vets".
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Yer quick to jump on n00bs, but the problem is more so with "Vets".
yeah, at least they hit there targets :D
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I wouldnt be so quick to condem a "bomb and bail" there are instances were I've had to do something similar
1. FHs down, take a A20 or SBD. A few minutes after take off and climbing someone says FHs are back up. Bail, get a fighter
2. Bombing run, Squadies come on the radio and need help at another base, or needs vehicle supplies to rescue their Tiger; if i only have a few minutes to drop point, I'll drop bombs and then bail. if i'm several minutes out, then just bail.
3. In a fighter or a bomber, not doing anything in particular maybe just scouting or flying to a strat target to blow something up. A base starts flashing, bail and go defend.
4. Commanding officer (wifey) says haul prettythang, time to go, I bail no arguments, no matter how much I might want to land.
What I will not do is intentionally bail when an ememy plane is coming to avoid getting shot down. heck thats partly the reason to take up bombers :t its one of the few times someone doesnt run away from you
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sometimes my mom yells at me to get off cause i was playing for to long... flying a long bomb mission...
i do my best to flip it on auto at +25k and see whats up in 20 min on the way back
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Did he bail to avoid being shot down? No, by your story he didn't. It sounds like that instead of flying all the way back to his base he just bailed to get down faster. No harm in that.
At least 25% of my deaths are from augering because I don't want to take the time to fly back to base. It's a lot quicker and if you don't give a damn about your score/rank it doesn't harm anyone.
ack-ack
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Ack Ack... I am not saying it hurt anyone. I just was stating that I thought it a bit rude. Someone saves your bacon and then comes to help you finish your trip home and you bail! I know, expecting manners in this game is a kin to expecting the sun to rise in the west come tomorrow morning. But, had I been in a similar situation, say I had to bail to help a squaddie as Airscrew suggested, I would at least thank the pilot that helped me out and explain that I had to bail. Certainly not a necessary thing to do, but a gentlemanly thing all the same.
Now then....back to your regularly scheduled program of HOing, Running, Vulcing and general whining about game play.
Cheers Mate!
Big Mickey
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This argument and complaint popped up a week or two ago, but fell off the front pages a while back. Since the :cry was posted again, I'll post what I believe is the best solution to the percieved problem.
First of, I must say ....GUILTY.... well, sort of... if there is no action, and no obvious DAR or interceptor headed for me, I'll might bail. More often, I'll bomb, then buzz the field to vulch and deack untill I get shot down. If I have a few kills, I'll try to land them. Over the past year and a half of play, I've gotten bored with repeated long buff runs for little purpose.
Problem: Buff drivers who bomb and bail (or auger).
Reasons: No real incentive to return to base and land. Perkies can only be used on Ar234, which many buff drivers don't care to fly. With no real need for perks, no reason to land the buffs. This problem strikes both new buff drivers that are in a hurry to get back in the air, as well as experienced buff drivers that get bored with the long ride back, and no real reason or need for ANOTHER thousand buff perk points they won't be using. To What Purpose?
No different than fitr pilot that HO's, fights to the death, or otherwise is not interested in landing any kills.
Possible Solutions:
Solution #1 - Go Better: Add perk-worthy bomber planes to the planeset.
Identified bombers that could be perk worthy: A-26 Invader, Mosquito B.Mk XVI, He-177, B-29. A-26 Invader is probably the most perk-worthy that we could actually see in-game (not going to see the B-29, a Skeeter is a Skeeter, and the He-177, though a nice addition to the heavy buff set, and non-American for a change, does not rate a high perk cost to be an effective economy sink for perks in-game).
Suggest that a flight of three A-26 Invaders might cost the same as 1 Me262 would in the arena. LW ride. A sweet attack plane, strafer, bomber interceptor, but not overly dominating in bomber role; and a decent economy sink for buff perks.
The Mosquito B.Mk XVI and He-177 would both be good second choices after an A-26 if you wanted to give 2 new buff rides.
Solution #2 - Go Bigger: Perkable Maximum Ord Load Options.
Allow pilots to use perks to load their buffs with the maximum ordance they could carry. Figure a cost per plane of about twice what they can earn from a typical successful mission. Multiple that across three planes in a flight, factor in failed missions, and this will limit how often buff drivers can run with max loadout.
Cons: The heavy loads with these planes on many of the game maps runways will result in overloaded buffs hanging in trees and imbedded into hillsides from failed take offs. Many perks lost on takeoff like this. Slower to alt. Slower speeds.
In game B-17 carries a maximum of 6,000 lbs (2721kg) of bombs. Normal bomb loads in Europe were 4,000-5,000 lbs. Maximum bomb load carried was 8,000 lbs (3628 kg) and the furthest the max load was carried was to Nienburg. To do this, internal fuel cells in the bomb bays were removed... which for game purposes would limit fuel load to 3/4 of max. ** Unsure code can allow for this ** Not that we ever need heavy fuel loads anyways.....
In game B-24 carried up to 8,000 lbs, which was the historical max carried to Karlsruhe. Theoretical max was 12,800, but this was impractical (bomb bay only so big). Normal loads were 5,000 lbs.
In game Lanc III carries up to 14,000 lbs (6350 kg) of bombs, which was the rated max. B1 Specials could carry the 21 foot (6.4 m) long 12,000 lb (5,448 kg) 'Tallboy' or 25.5 foot (7.77 m) long 22,000 lb (9,979 kg) "Grand Slam" "earthquake" bombs. This required modification of the bomb-bay doors and limited the operational range to 660 miles. *** Could game code correctly model a Tallboy or Gland Slam blast effect?*** Tallboy or Grand Slam would have to be especially expensive,.... and a lone, slow, Lanc will attract all kinds of attention if these bombs are in-game.
In-game Ju-88 can carry 6613 lbs (3,000 kg) which is already more than sources I've read mention for this particular bird.
In-game Ki-67 can carry up to 1760 lbs (800kg) of ord, which is a normal bomb load. Maximum I've found lists 2,359 lbs, and up to 6,000 lbs on those used as Kamakazis.
*** Of course, some fitr pilots and furballs say, perk all ord..... in which case, you'll be hard pressed to even find a buff in the arena.... the buff rides get seriously nerfed in that manner, they just won't get used. A bomber in flight will be as rare a sight as a C202 or A6M2 ***
Solution #3 - Go More: Allow the Purchase of Additional Drones
Allow up to three more drones, to compliment the existing two in a flight. Cost per drone a little less than an Ar234, to limit their use. Set up in a formation 3 across, 2 deep, and offset slightly (and preferable rear group a little lower as well, as was actually done.
Pro: single pilots having ability to wreck serious havoc on towns and strategic targets like cities and factories. Two or three buff pilots working together can be a strong force to be dealt with.
Cons:, unsure existing code can handle 3 additional drones, fire control really off for turrents.... will actually be less effective per gun against enemy targets due to convergence. Buff drivers will have to play off-line with salvos and delays to see what actually works well with new, larger formation. A boon of targets to those fitr jokes that are as adept at interception missions and killing buffs as pulling the wings off of flies.
3 pilots each upping 3 additional drones for a total of 18 aircraft would be very close to the 20 plane Bomber Group in the 8th AF. 9 pilots in this mode with 54 aircraft would come very close to an entire 60-plane Bomber Wing.
May lead to more common use of boxes in the arenas. A target rich environment.
As well as being a economic buff perk sink.
No one solution works for everyone, for example; not-all buff drivers going to like a A-26 attack plane. Many buff drivers go with biggests is bestest path, which is why you see many Lancs on low level attacks. Solution #2 and #3 address this group of buff drivers.
I would recommend adopting any two of the three solutions mentioned to address the original problem of giving buff drivers a reason to collect and spend perk points in the game. This will reduce the number of bomb and bail runs to those that are purely there to grief and don't care about perks in any case.
Expected result. More bomb runs. More bombers trying to land after their runs. More high altitude bomb runs. More high altitude interceptors used to attack the buffs. Possibly bring strategic goals and targets back into the game on a higher level.
And if you are a buff driver that likes these ideas..... start bombing and bailing while in the arena all the time to increase the complaint factions in the boards. Maybe something will happen then. Like burning bras in the 60's. Acts of protest! Yeahhhh babbyyyy!
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Originally posted by Big Mickey
Just a quick whine here to those that drop and pop. Last night I am flying a jug and with my usual alt monkey skills I climb to around 20K to ingress into the target. As I am inbound I catch a friendly B24 formation, about 2k below, coming off the target. I assume he is heading back to base to land his mission.
I then spot an enemy Spit coalt with me who has eyes for the 24s. I wep it up and dive a bit to get some speed. I catch the spit as he starts to open up on the buffs. I am about 800 back but I give him a quick burst to hopfully change his mind. It works and he rolls off. I pull up to conserve E and have to make a couple more passes at this spit to make sure he gets the point.
After pass 3, and a few good hits, the spit driver decides to go low and bug out. The dar bar is darn near full red so I decide to not follow and help Shepherd the 24's out of the sector. I point my nose back up and towards the formation. As I am closing to escort this guy back...he bails! As far as I can tell there is no damage to the 24's, although I guess there is the possibility of a pilot wound. However the spit was always firing from the formations 6 so that would be a slim possibility.
So, the short story is, I gave up on a kill for an ungrateful dweeb that decided to say thanks by bailing, I am sure he was itchin to get back to his LA7.
Now I know it's his 15 frog pelts and he can play however he wants, but IMHO....think before you pull this move. How many times have you flown a buff and prayed for an escort to drive off the bad guys so you can land your bomb run? Bailing after the drop when someone helped save your bacon only encourages folks to fly on by and watch as you explode.
Big Mickey
you might have caught a guy with 2 accounts spit pings all 3 runs away then he grabs bombers bails for 3 kills for himself
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I might add another additional incentive for a buffer to RTB: A landing message similar to successful fighter sorties, e.g. "XXX has landed 4 destroyed Hangars" or "XXX has landed 50K of damage". Some bomb&bailers may actually strive for the cheers of the crowd then.
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Originally posted by Lusche
I might add another additional incentive for a buffer to RTB: A landing message similar to successful fighter sorties, e.g. "XXX has landed 4 destroyed Hangars" or "XXX has landed 50K of damage". Some bomb&bailers may actually strive for the cheers of the crowd then.
That's a good idea.
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Originally posted by Big Mickey
Now I know it's his 15 frog pelts and he can play however he wants, but IMHO....think before you pull this move. How many times have you flown a buff and prayed for an escort to drive off the bad guys so you can land your bomb run? Bailing after the drop when someone helped save your bacon only encourages folks to fly on by and watch as you explode.
HTC takes payment in frog pelts!?
cool...i gots me lots a dem.
(http://www.hatesphere.com/forum/images/smiles/redneck.gif)
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Originally posted by rod367th
you might have caught a guy with 2 accounts spit pings all 3 runs away then he grabs bombers bails for 3 kills for himself
huh ????? :huh :confused: That is one hell of a lot of work for a few perkies. If someone would acctually do this, then I guess their punishment is simply having to go through life as themself. :aok
Big Mickey
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Originally posted by Big Mickey
huh ????? :huh :confused: That is one hell of a lot of work for a few perkies. If someone would acctually do this, then I guess their punishment is simply having to go through life as themself. :aok
Big Mickey
You'd be amazed at the amount of effort people will expend in order to avoid learning a skill.
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death,bailing,augering need to have a penalty like "back to desktop" instead of tower or have a time penalty, i - 2 minutes before you can reup.
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It depends on the mood im in and how long I plan on playing that night.
Sometimes Im all gung-ho lets make a mission, tight formations, get the bombs in and lets get home...other times I get 1/2 way there and ask myself why I came up in bombers, and dump em out, dive in to try to shoot a few guys and die. I think I have enough time in these games to make that choice.
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or was he booted? The buffers in my wing/squad believe it's much more satisfying to land their booty than let it flounder. No, they're not interested in perks as they could never use them all if they took 234's on every mission. If they are booted that would be another story. I know when I get some slim pickins in a fighter that I want to land em and don't bail unless it's pointless to ditch.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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Originally posted by john9001
death,bailing,augering need to have a penalty like "back to desktop" instead of tower or have a time penalty, i - 2 minutes before you can reup.
Never happen, "Dream Warrior" * . The pattern is fool.
The furballers will howl at the delay in their pursuit of perkies. :furious
The vulchers will howl bacause the dweebs that constantly reup at capped fields won't deliver up their hides as often to the vulchers' guns. :furious
The clueless noobs will leave the game because there will be too long between their failed attempts to take off in the first place; overloaded, at half throttle, and so forth. :cry
The swabbies will howl, because of delay each time between carrier take offs because the CV turns last minute on them and they catch the 5" turrent, or they tried to lift from the CV wayyy overloaded. :furious
There is no way any game developer will saddle their customers like that. None. Nadda. Zip. Neg-a-tive.
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* "Dream Warriors" being a song from What big hair metal band from the 1980's, Alex?.....
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In my opinion, buffs are used in this game like someone uses a shotgun on a canary in a birdcage. What skill that must take. The majority of the "Bomb and Bail" pilots I see are Vets. They come in at tree top level, carpet bomb everything cause they can, then bail out of 3 untouched buffs so they can reup immediatly with no penatly. Or they loop over and divebomb till they loose all three buffs or run out of bombs by dropping them in salvos on GVs or hangers. They don't care if they die. There is very little incentive to live in a buff.
I to have bailed from airworthy ships, don't get me wrong. But there is a difference between bailing to help a squadmate in trouble, and bailing just so you can drop bombs faster.
There are a bunch of pilots that fly buffs and drop eggs from 10K to 20K and can thread a needle with them. I salute you. That takes some time to learn. Not as much as it use to, but some time.
I don't think there is an easy solution to the "Bomb-N-Bail" problem in this game until they address the incentive issue.
LTARsqrl <>
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I wouldn't dream of bailing for no reason.
I try so hard to deny perks if I can. I'm the guy who'll glide his plane into a countryside landing and wait 15-20 minutes because my plane has an oil leak and I won't be able to get to a friendly base. Hopefully, the other guy was killed or has landed already.
There's no way I'm going to waste my buffs, either. I had probably spent the last 30 minutes flying 3/4 of the way across a map to reach 25K in fully loaded lancs. I will get a return for my investment, or I'll be shot down.
Heck, I've landed my lancs on a cv because I was being shot up and chased across creation and wasn't going to make it to a land field....
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Originally posted by Overlag
its the new guys wanting counterstrike speed rounds that do this..
Nobody who wants a counterstrike 'speed round' flys a B24 to 18k...
Double check those fruit loops you are smoking overlag, I think they're tainted.
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Originally posted by MadSquirrel
........... They don't care if they die. There is very little incentive to live in a buff.
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There are a bunch of pilots that fly buffs and drop eggs from 10K to 20K and can thread a needle with them. I salute you. That takes some time to learn. Not as much as it use to, but some time.
I don't think there is an easy solution to the "Bomb-N-Bail" problem in this game until they address the incentive issue.
LTARsqrl <>
I find myself in agreement with an LTAR.... or him in agreement with me.....
:confused: :confused: :confused:
owwii !!....owiiiii. !! ...head hurts!!!!
You are right that a 10 to 15K drop is not hard. It does take a lot of patience and time. I'd do it in order to target dar, ord, and troops..... but too many troops per base to make those missions worth while any more.
Ord and Dar are about the most impact a single bomber can have on solo runs over multiple fields, and these be handled by lower level suicide attacks, or Ki-67 penetration bombers.
Since cooperative efforts are more neccessary in taking bases, buff pilots find they are needed back over the base quickly to maintain an attack.... so they come in from a closer field, at lower level, then bail after their drop.
Massed JABO raids seem to be taking over from use of buffs to drop a town, from what I've seen as well. Drop ord then vulch.
So, why not bomb and bail ? .... most of us don't need the buff perks. Bail out, or straf the field until you areshot down, or land/ditch in the first open ground you spot. And, yes, you will see more vets doing this than new players..... new players are looking for all perks.... it's really only after playing a while, and taking up a few Ar234's, and spending a lot of time clawing to altitude and returning to base on buff missions that you realize that is a lot of time invested with little return.