Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: eskimo2 on November 15, 2002, 03:53:56 PM
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A6M-2 Vs. Hurri-I - 1.35
A6M-2 Vs. P-40b - 1.18
A6M-2 Vs. Boston - 7.9
A6M-2 Vs. SBD - 2.9
Hurri-I Vs. A6M-2 - 0.74
Hurri-I Vs. KI-67 - 1.77
Hurri-I Vs. D3A - 18.0
P-40b Vs. A6M-2 - 0.85
P-40b Vs. KI-67 - 1.33
P-40b Vs. D3A - 1.36
Clearly the A6Ms gave the P-40s and Hurris a hard time this week. I found the Hurries relatively easy to deal with due to their lack of speed. Although the Hurri-I is a good turning match for the A6M-2, the greatest threat they had to offer was that many Hurri drivers knew how to get the most out of their planes. Perhaps the recent transition from BigBob Hurri-IICs was a good warm up for those flyers.
I thought the P-40b was a great match for the A6M-2. The wise Tigershark drivers kept their E-state up. Fast or high P-40s were very difficult to deal with. The most common mistake I saw from P-40 pilots was blowing energy.
I didn't fly the Allied planes at all this week, but I find it very interesting from the stats that the slow Hurri faired better against the relatively fast KI-67 than the faster P-40. The D3A survived better against the P-40 than I would have guessed, but it sure took a beating from the Hurris.
One personal note: On Saturday, I had 5 collisions. Last night, I was wounded 5 times. For me, both of these events are pretty rare. 5 in one session for either may be a personal record. Lots of collisions and woundings indicate to me a lack of fire-power on both sides.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Lots of collisions and woundings indicate to me a lack of fire-power on both sides.
Yup. But that's part of the fun of early war planes.
- oldman (himself a victim of a number of collisions)
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Yup. But that's part of the fun of early war planes.
- oldman (himself a victim of a number of collisions)
Yes it is Oldman!
eskimo
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That is really about how i thought it would turn out. I think the scores would even out a little if they did something about the extreme dive ability of the zero in AH.
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Bump.
The A6M-2 ruled the roost the last time that we had this set-up. I think when the P-40E shows up it will dominate when flown properly.
eskimo
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Perhaps, but the P40E does not domanate in the Slot set up's, my gues is it will be prety close with the Zero slightly in the lead.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
That is really about how i thought it would turn out. I think the scores would even out a little if they did something about the extreme dive ability of the zero in AH.
compared to the last few maps, it's still boring as hell
last 2 fridays >40 when logged on
tonite 14..
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Well It is Valintines day.
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And im at work. I know you are all missing me.:D
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Originally posted by brady
Perhaps, but the P40E does not domanate in the Slot set up's, my gues is it will be prety close with the Zero slightly in the lead.
If I'm not mistaken, the Slot setups also included the later-war Zeke.
Are you saying the A6M2 dominated the P40E in the Slot?
Splash1
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Bump.
The A6M-2 ruled the roost the last time that we had this set-up. I think when the P-40E shows up it will dominate when flown properly.
eskimo
I agree, once the P-40E arrives it will very hard to survive in a Zero. As it is, a properly flown P-40B is nearly impossible to catch, or shoot down.
I demonstrated the P-40B's big E advantage to a formation of 4 Zeros. I got one, and assists on all the others. They never had any opportunity to hit me. I hit them alone and forced them to scatter. Soon more P-40s arrived and we were able to isolate them one by one.
If I had a P-40E with six .50s, I would have gotten them all.
Been flying Japanese since then, dogfighting in the D3A and Zero. Still haven't found anyone who uses the P-40 correctly though. They will learn, I'm sure.
The A6M2 is badly out-classed by the P-40E. Gonna be some whining come Monday... Lol
My regards,
Widewing
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Dennis, on the last map it was but that was exception not the rule normaly their is no A6M5, the Tony is generaly their though.
Widewing, Hit the nail on the head, most people will not use the P40E the way it should be, even with the advantage the "B" has it still lost out to the Zero, for the same reasion, I bet it will this time as well, even with the "E" come monday.
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My point -- perhaps I was being too subtle -- was that this week might not be much fun for IJAAF once the P40E is added.
Eskimo noted it, as did Widewing. The P40E will probably dominate.
Previous setups on this terrain have given the Japanese the Ki-61 and/or the A6M6 to help counter the E's gun package and speed -- or the E was absent.
Perhaps, historically, the Japanese faced P40Es in Burma with A6m2s. I don't know.
Whatever.
Prepare for the Ch1 whines. I'll either sit this one out after Sunday or switch and join the allied gangbanging hoards in a Hurricane.
If Jarbo would reconsider and leave the P40E out, I think it would be more fun ... and drive off fewer IJAAF jocks.
Just a thought.
Splash1
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I dont think the you guys are flying the zeros correctly if you are having problems with boom and zoom p40bs. Come in high on em, make em dive, blow them away in the dive, and then turn with the others till you get some distance, climb back up again.
Only disadvantage that zero has is its fragile frame.
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Well, I am going to back Jarbo on the adation of the P40E, I dont think it is going to diestabalise anything, like I said before I beleave the Zero will still come out ok, that the numbers will be prety even K/D wise.
Zero's were not in Burma. The Zero is the only early war Japanese fighter we have, so it fills in for every thing.
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Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps, historically, the Japanese faced P40Es in Burma with A6m2s. I don't know.
In April of 1942, the AVG began receiving P-40Es to supplement their Tomahawks.
There were no Zeros in Burma. This is because only the JAAF was active there. By April of '42, most fighter units were flying the Ki-43-I. However, it was slower than the A6M2, although a bit more maneuverable. Where it really fell short was in guns. Just a pair of 7.7mm machine guns where all they had in the face of six fifties of the 50 mph faster P-40Es.
If we had the Ki-43-I in here, things would only be worse.
My regards,
Widewing
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what do you mean by worse? worse for the ijaaf? I just had a ball with a zero over in burma. I think they are a bit too uber for the p40b. I think it should be the oscar, but I can not even imagine what a more maneuverable plane than the a6m2 would be like. The only thing that keeps this from a true slaughter is the little cannon rounds the zero hauls.
I think I agree with the p40e addition now, as it stands, the allies dont stand much of a chance against smartly flown zeros.
Anyway, if its terrible after we add them, drop them again on wednesday.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
what do you mean by worse? worse for the ijaaf? I just had a ball with a zero over in burma. I think they are a bit too uber for the p40b. I think it should be the oscar, but I can not even imagine what a more maneuverable plane than the a6m2 would be like. The only thing that keeps this from a true slaughter is the little cannon rounds the zero hauls.
I think I agree with the p40e addition now, as it stands, the allies dont stand much of a chance against smartly flown zeros.
Anyway, if its terrible after we add them, drop them again on wednesday.
Much worse for JAAF. A6M2 is little more than a target for P-40E. It's bog slow, has weak guns in comparison and P-40E is better climber using WEP. In short, flying the P-40E like it should be flown, it will easily overpower the Zero. The only reason the Zero is successful against the P-40B is because guys insist on turn fighting with the Zeke. Hell, I shot down 10 Zeros with an SBD tonight, 11 if we count one that crashed after I did! I set it on fire and turned away expecting it to crash, but it didn't explode and managed to knock off my horizontal stab before it blew up. That was my error, I should have finished it. The SBD can't climb and can manage but 250 mph. But, it has good guns and can turn with the Zero at speeds above 200 mph. In exchange for those 11 Zeros and a Ki-67, and 7 assists, I lost just that one SBD to enemy aircraft.
If a pilot takes the time to learn how to use the SBD or the P-40B, they could easily generate a terrific score.
I can hardly wait to get the P-40E.
Take my word for it, the A6M2 is a dog... It's only a threat if you get slow, real slow. So, as long as guys try to stallfight with the Zero, it'll score kills. As soon as they wise up, the Zero is a non-factor.
It's all about tactics and fighting to your strengths. The Zero has but one strength, turning. Avoid that and it's near to useless against a fast fighter.
My regards,
Widewing
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As we have it in AH the A6M2 really sucks vs its contemporararies the F4F4 and P40E - I cant imagine why they caused such a concern for the US Navy and Army Air Corps early in the war if the real ones were anything like in AH.
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I think most guys realize that if you fly the P40B right they'll live, but folks want kills also. With the weak guns you can't BnZ and get kills, just a lot of assists. Most people (not the experten) have to saddle up and fill them with lead to get kills. Of course, then you are slow and easy meat for somebody else. Can't have it both ways I guess. Sounds like the P40E is the answer to this problem if others are correct.
bowser
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Widewing, if your knocking zekes out of the air with an sbd, I think you need to realize your flying against guys not paying much attention.
Keep the fight vertical, and that a6m2 is a killer, hell any equal e fight and the zero has it.
as it stands
zero 38 kills of sbd
sbd 20 kills of zero
zero 233 kills of p40b
p40b 143 kills of zero
a6m2 192 kills of hurricane
hurri 174 kills of zero
in the little time I have had up I have killed
3 p40s
and 3 hurricanes
Killed once by a p40
and so embarassed, but 2 by a hurricane. One of those was a collision with the shattered remnants of the plane I just blew to shreds, but I guess that still counts.
After flying this map, as a zero, I dont see any issues with adding the p40e.
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The primary reasion I suported Jarbo in his deschion to add the P40E was that, despite what Widewing has stated which is true insomuch as if the planes were used to their strengths, fact of the mater is 90% of the time they are not, and that is why the Zero does so well, Another thing we nead to consider is that when some skilled players acheave huge kill streaks it is not nessarly reflective of the total player base, Moot has landed 15 kill streaks in the 202 in the MA aganst 1944 fighters but that doesent mean the 202 should be perked, or that it is uber and the planes it faught aganst were not. ergRTC's list paints a better picture while numbers can at times be misleading, i think based on the figures for the past set up that they are right whear I expected them to be, despite the spead advantage the P40B has. My assesment of the "E" being added is that a narowing of the Zero's Advantage will occure in the overall K/D scale, with neiteher having a big increase over the other in terms of K/D.
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Originally posted by brady
The primary reasion I suported Jarbo in his deschion to add the P40E was that, despite what Widewing has stated which is true insomuch as if the planes were used to their strengths, fact of the mater is 90% of the time they are not,
Exactly, you can't complain about K/D ratios if they are reflective of skillful piloting. Widewing killing several zekes in an SBD is telling. I think the gravest difference is the 6 .50s of the E model--all the other fighters are well matched in terms of firepower they are all fairly anemic. But those 6 .50s should shred the Japanese planes. The Zeke can always out turn the E model, but without the ability to shoot back, that might turn things toward the P-40 side.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Widewing
Much worse for JAAF. A6M2 is little more than a target for P-40E. Take my word for it, the A6M2 is a dog... It's only a threat if you get slow, real slow. So, as long as guys try to stallfight with the Zero, it'll score kills. As soon as they wise up, the Zero is a non-factor.
It's all about tactics and fighting to your strengths. The Zero has but one strength, turning. Avoid that and it's near to useless against a fast fighter.
My regards,
Widewing
I tend to agree. When I was flying Japanese iron we simply dragged the Hurris and P-40s to the deck and killed them there in a mass circle. But if those guys stayed at alt and used hit and run, they wore us out. My experience as an allied pilot confirms those impressions.
What would a K-61/A6M2 versus F4F and P-40E setup be like?
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
I tend to agree. When I was flying Japanese iron we simply dragged the Hurris and P-40s to the deck and killed them there in a mass circle. But if those guys stayed at alt and used hit and run, they wore us out. My experience as an allied pilot confirms those impressions.
What would a K-61/A6M2 versus F4F and P-40E setup be like?
Sakai
I had that exact set up in a Slot map some time back. Pretty even fight, I thought.
Sabre
CT Staff
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it was.
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I really enjoy the dialogue here about P40b vs Zeke and effect of the P40e inclusion. Eskimo thank you for doing the stats. I am gonna stick with the P40e inclusion and watch how it effects the arena and gameplay. Some excellent points have been made above about how adding the P40e may screw up the balance beyond what is acceptable. As always, if I see that this change destabilizes the arena, I will make adjustments at that time.
To you all to contributing to the process of CT setups
Jarbo
CT Staff
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Widewing, if your knocking zekes out of the air with an sbd, I think you need to realize your flying against guys not paying much attention.
Keep the fight vertical, and that a6m2 is a killer, hell any equal e fight and the zero has it.
I've killed 12 Zekes for 1 loss to them (although a proxy or two may be in the stats). That loss was due to turning my back on Leviathn's Zero, which I had set on fire and assumed that it would go straight in. It didn't. Lev blew up seconds later. So, if we count that one, it's 13/1.
They guys I killed saw me coming, there just wasn't butkus they could do about it. Above 150 mph, the SBD can turn with the Zero. At speeds above 300 mph, it owns the Zero. Only in a stallfight does the Zero have the edge.
In a a Co-alt fight, the Zero's speed allows it to extend. But if both are doing around 250, the SBD will reverse faster. As a dogfighter, the SBD is superior to the P-40B, considerably so. Believe it or not, the SBD retains energy better than the P-40B.
So, get above a Zero and he's in a world of hurt.
There are several secrets to dogfighting with the SBD, it is capable of things no fighter can match. Once a pilot learns how to exploit these, the SBD becomes quite formidable. I've killed F4U-4s, La-7s and Doras with it. Furthermore, I'm not an exceptional pilot. But, I know the tactics and I have the patience to employ them. Anyone can do what I do, if they are willing to learn how. Just in case anyone wonders, I know how to exploit the Zero's ability as well, going 11/1 so far. Again, it's all about understanding the tactics required and applying them. There's no mysterious tricks, no gamey stuff, and surely no great flying ability. Indeed, if talent were a real factor, I'd be at the bottom of the pile.
As to the P-40s, I've flown a few sorties with them, 13/0 so far. I will never turnfight with a Zero. He's gonna have to fight they way I want, and that means fast, fast, and fast some more.
The bottom line is this: Take the time to grab adequate altitude. If you're flying a P-40E, the Zero is badly overmatched when faced with a higher P-40E. Likewise, the SBD is extremely dangerous if it has an altitude advantage. Zero drivers had better grab as much altitude as possible. Otherwise, they are at a major disadvantage.
My regards,
Widewing
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I had 6 kills and one deth(I was outnumbered) in my Zero today, granted 3 were bostons(they were singles one was a tag and flak finish), and I only flew for an hour, I saw Some large kill streaks landed by Zero's as well, I say we let this ride and see what hapens in the end.
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were these 1 on 1 widewing?
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Did the F4U-4 lose a HO or what? More details on these legendary SBD battles please :D
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Originally posted by ergRTC
were these 1 on 1 widewing?
Some were 1v1, some were in furballs. The fact that I get a lot of kills with the SBD is not a fluke. Typically, in the MA against much tougher aircraft than the Zeke 21.....
From tour 31: Widewing has 34 kills and has been killed 11 times in the SBD-5.
From tour 32: Widewing has 83 kills and has been killed 22 times in the SBD-5.
From tour 33: Widewing has 108 kills and has been killed 28 times in the SBD-5.
From tour 34: Widewing has 62 kills and has been killed 22 times in the SBD-5.
Do not underestimate the SBD. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it, it is a very dangerous aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing
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strangly useless in situations not under the sbd pilots control. Are you sure your hyper stats in the sbd are not just from being in the right place? Now that is just as much of a skill as killing f6fs in an sbd... just wondering though. Are you hanging on the edge of fights waiting for stragglers at low alt and e? Not saying that is not a great strat, just wondering.
For example... I have not seen an SBD in the air yet....
;)
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Originally posted by Widewing
I've killed 12 Zekes for 1 loss to them (although a proxy or two may be in the stats). That loss was due to turning my back on Leviathn's Zero, which I had set on fire and assumed that it would go straight in. It didn't. Lev blew up seconds later. So, if we count that one, it's 13/1.
[/B]
Not to put a damper on a fine self-back patting, but let's introduce some accuracy in reporting here. As much as you may admire the SBD's Zeke-killing skills, you engaged me 3v1 while I was finishing off the last of five enemies who were on me at the beginning of a massive engagement. This means I was down to machine guns and intent on filling that guy with them at all costs before turning off to take care of the latecomers (namely you in an SBD and sticks in a Hurri I). And you still died.
They guys I killed saw me coming, there just wasn't butkus they could do about it.
[/b]
Not true. I ignored you until the Hurricane was dead, after which I turned to engage and finished you. You managed, at 200 yards off my six, to put in a couple more pings that lit me on fire... before I forced you to overshoot and returned the favor. Looking at the film (and yes, I have film of the entire thing), it's clear that you couldn't have followed me in the last vertical move I performed even if you'd wanted to, so hoping I was dead was a matter of wishful thinking more than anything. It's clear you pulled vertical, realized you couldn't follow, then pushed your nose down and tried to extend enough until the fire hit my fuel tanks. That didn't work out.
So while the SBD may be an excellent A2A platform, before dropping names and presuming to count me among the war dead, it's important to clarify a few things about our engagement. I'd be happy to post the film if someone would like to host it so as to lay to rest any uncertainties.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the SBD. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Not to put a damper on a fine self-back patting, but let's introduce some accuracy in reporting here. As much as you may admire the SBD's Zeke-killing skills, you engaged me 3v1 while I was finishing off the last of five enemies who were on me at the beginning of a massive engagement. This means I was down to machine guns and intent on filling that guy with them at all costs before turning off to take care of the latecomers (namely you in an SBD and sticks in a Hurri I). And you still died.
[/b]
Not true. I ignored you until the Hurricane was dead, after which I turned to engage and finished you. You managed, at 200 yards off my six, to put in a couple more pings that lit me on fire... before I forced you to overshoot and returned the favor. Looking at the film (and yes, I have film of the entire thing), it's clear that you couldn't have followed me in the last vertical move I performed even if you'd wanted to, so hoping I was dead was a matter of wishful thinking more than anything. It's clear you pulled vertical, realized you couldn't follow, then pushed your nose down and tried to extend enough until the fire hit my fuel tanks. That didn't work out.
So while the SBD may be an excellent A2A platform, before dropping names and presuming to count me among the war dead, it's important to clarify a few things about our engagement. I'd be happy to post the film if someone would like to host it so as to lay to rest any uncertainties.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the SBD. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
Well, when I spotted you I was well below climbing out with a 1k bomb strapped to the belly. When I saw you beating up those guys, I dumped the bomb and turned in an effort to cut you off.
The fact that you were engaged with another aircraft means nothing. You wouldn't pass on such an opportunity. The Hurri was headed for the deck and you followed. So, now being well above you, I rolled in, closed and fired, setting your Zeke ablaze. You then pulled into the vertical as I went whistling on by. I expected you to go straight in, and I pulled nose high and began a turn while throttling back to observe the crash. It was at that point that I saw that while on fire, your Zero was very much alive. Having slowed considerably, I rammed on power, pushed over and tightened the turn. But, at such a slow speed, I could not out-turn the Zero, nor accelerate away. At that point you shot off my horizontal stab. My mistake was to get careless. Had I not dumped my E, I would have been out of range, extending out while you waited to explode. You didn't "force" an overshoot, I was much faster than you and an overshoot was unavoidable and not unintended. However, I figured you were dead. Upon seeing the smoke and fire, I stupidly slacked off... and paid for it.
95% of the time, when I smack a Zero from close range.. it's dead immediately. You were very lucky Lev.... for 30 seconds before you blew up.
Please, post the film. If no one will host it, send it to me, I will.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
The fact that you were engaged with another aircraft means nothing. You wouldn't pass on such an opportunity.
[/B]
Of course I wouldn't pass up such an opportunity. What I absolutely would not do is drop names and misrepresent the engagement (after all, you did say that everyone you killed saw you coming and couldn't do anything about it) in an effort to extoll the virtues of one plane or another. I mean, you died and you're still counting it as if you killed me. I give sticks credit for the kill since he was still around to enjoy it. :)
So, now being well above you, I rolled in, closed and fired, setting your Zeke ablaze.
[/B]
Not quite accurate. You shot me up as I was turning with the original Hurricane. This hit oil. After I dispatched him, you came around for another pass and pinged me as I pulled the vertical move on you, lighting my fuel on fire. You died shortly thereafter, as I still had plenty of time before the fuel fire dispatched me. The second pass on me was the mistake... you should have kept going after smoking me and allowed my oil or fuel to simply run out. You surely would have gotten the kill.
You then pulled into the vertical as I went whistling on by. I expected you to go straight in, and I pulled nose high and began a turn while throttling back to observe the crash. It was at that point that I saw that while on fire, your Zero was very much alive.
[/b]
When you were 200-500 back, according to AH film, we were the same speed (~200mph). You only remained faster than me because I turned into you and you did little to counter it.
You were very lucky Lev.... for 30 seconds before you blew up.
[/B]
Rather, I'd say it was you who were unlucky. :)
I'll post the film shortly.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Hey Widewing would you, if you have time add your oppinion to the F4F-4 vz A6M2 thread in aircraft and vehicals, particulary regarding zero durabality under fire.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Of course I wouldn't pass up such an opportunity. What I absolutely would not do is drop names and misrepresent the engagement (after all, you did say that everyone you killed saw you coming and couldn't do anything about it) in an effort to extoll the virtues of one plane or another. I mean, you died and you're still counting it as if you killed me. I give sticks credit for the kill since he was still around to enjoy it. :)
[/B]
Not quite accurate. You shot me up as I was turning with the original Hurricane. This hit oil. After I dispatched him, you came around for another pass and pinged me as I pulled the vertical move on you, lighting my fuel on fire. You died shortly thereafter, as I still had plenty of time before the fuel fire dispatched me. The second pass on me was the mistake... you should have kept going after smoking me and allowed my oil or fuel to simply run out. You surely would have gotten the kill.
When you were 200-500 back, according to AH film, we were the same speed (~200mph). You only remained faster than me because I turned into you and you did little to counter it.
Rather, I'd say it was you who were unlucky. :)
I'll post the film shortly.
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
This is why I want to see the film. I related the events as best as I could recall. I had a dozen or more engagements that day.
I’m perfectly willing to have any missing details provided. That said the fact remains that 95% of the time a Zero would have gone down immediately. Your Zeke survived long enough to hit me. Sticks gained the proxy when you blew up. And, what exactly caused your Zero to explode? ;)
I accomplished my purpose anyway. The Hurri got away, and you went kaboom :D
Indeed, if it weren’t for the strange damage model of the Zero, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. But sometimes, those damn things won't die.... :mad:
Seriously, flying the SBD as a fighter requires maximum aggression. The airplane is way too slow not to press hard. When you attack a fighter, you cannot leave anything on the table, simply because the fighter will eventually gain the advantage. You have to disable or kill it before that happens. That means boring in, committing, and leaving you virtually no margin for error. The vast majority of the time, it works. With you, it worked inasmuch as your Zero was on fire (I thought it was about to crash, which is why I made no effort to avoid you), utterly doomed at the very least. Call it your good luck or my bad luck, but either way; I would do it the same way next time.
Of course, everyone should realize that from now on any poor guy flying an SBD anywhere near Lev is gonna get his full attention :D
My regards,
Widewing
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Once, I shot down three B17s in a Kate. I don't have a film but I remember it pretty well.
Then I invented ice cream.
:D
Splash1
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When I'm flying in an A6M and it catches on fire, I do everything I can to get a kill within the next 30 seconds. If I'm in freindly territory, and low, I'll sometimes try to ditch, but only if there's no chance to kill someone, and I think that I can put it down in under 30 seconds.
Burning zero's are very dangerous because their pilots are as aggressive as possible.
The last time I set a zero on fire, I did all I could to not give him a shot while I counted to 30.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Dennis
Once, I shot down three B17s in a Kate. I don't have a film but I remember it pretty well.
Then I invented ice cream.
:D
Splash1
:)
Man you're good with a torp.
eskimo
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mmmm
thats good ice cream...
:)
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What a great thread. One of the best I have read in the CT forum.
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OK, who wants to take on Widewing and his SBD. Please sign here. Thank you.:D
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i got a zero waiting right here.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I accomplished my purpose anyway. The Hurri got away, and you went kaboom :D
[/B]
Nope, the Hurricane I was on died messily. Sticks was a latecomer to the fight (he was right behind you as you came in). So you failed to save the Hurricane and died doing so. That changes the complexion of the mission a little bit. :)
Indeed, if it weren’t for the strange damage model of the Zero, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. But sometimes, those damn things won't die.... :mad:
[/b]
I've seriously never had any problems bringing down A6M2s, though I find cannon-equipped planes have a far easier time of it. In your case, the best thing to have done would have been to disengage after your initial pass, because it was just a matter of time at that point. I was already critically low on fuel as was.
Call it your good luck or my bad luck, but either way; I would do it the same way next time.
[/B]
I wouldn't have changed a thing. At the time you and sticks came into the fight, I was getting low on ammo and fuel. I wanted to finish off the last plane from the high alt engagement, so I made a game out of seeing if I could get him before the latecomers got me. It's not that I didn't know you were there, but I was trying to survive long enough to finish my primary job. :) I could have stayed high and engaged you and the sticks with alt, but where's the fun in that?
Of course, everyone should realize that from now on any poor guy flying an SBD anywhere near Lev is gonna get his full attention :D
[/b]
hehe Nah, I had my hands full enough as it was. I don't really consider SBDs a threat unless they're in a crowd... at which point I consider any plane a threat, especially one sporting .50 caliber guns.
Anyway, it seems like I will need someone to host the film after all. Do you have an e-mail address where I can send the film?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Send me the film please
pirci@bayarea.net
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See the film here! (http://home.attbi.com/~filipm/ZekeMadness.zip)
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wow, I saw the film.
nice flying dead man flying.
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Looks to me that widewing made a mistake in turning after his last pass - BS it may be but we all know how long zeros can fight even on fire.
I do think the Zero is too resitant to fire damage - however I do not think its full flight performance advanatages over F4F4 are fully present in AH. Even US tests showed zero was as fast on deck and starting at 1000ft faster at all alts - not the case in AH at low alts in any strech of the imagination. This gives the F4F4 an added advantage it never had - being able to disengage at will at any altitude. In real life they could only dive away but in AH an F4F4 can simply run away even on the deck. I also think the loe speed manuverability advantage of zero is negligent over a light F4F4 - the wording of the USA test made it clear there was no need to even consider this aspect as the zero had a profound superirity. Roll rate on zero is very sluggish at any speed - this does not match the reports about finger light instant control response at low speed by Saburo Sakai who knew a thing or two about zeros. I feel these discrepencies give the F4?F4 a much greater 1v1 dogfight capability vs zero than what matches the hitorical record - the F4F4 defeated zero by teamwork and slahing diving attacks from a superior altitide position not by individual manouver as is now possible in AH.
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GRUNHERZ, I just quoted you and put it in that thread in Aircraft and Vehicals. I hope that is ok.
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My lawyers will contact you shortly.... :D
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DMF... I been there.. My name was mentioned once as being a victim of superior skill... the guy let two other countrymen die before i lost enough energy for him to attack me. wish I had film tho... that was .... precious.
lazs
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Really grunherz? I have not noticed a speed advantage over 3k. Remember neither of these planes has wep.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
nice flying dead man flying.
Thanks, ergRTC. I'm glad you enjoyed watching it. I know I enjoyed making it. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Just saw the film myself. That was good stuff. Your gunnery is awsome. <
>
No longer impressed with Widewings SBD:D j/k
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Saw that some people said zeros were not in Burma. I thought this was true too until i saw a special on the flying tigers the other night. so i looked it up. turns out Claire Chennault and his tigers were the first to go up against the a6m2. this being the case, Chennault was instrumental in warning his superiors of the flight characteristics of the zeke. just thought id throw in my two cents.
all.
Matre
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Originally posted by Matre
Saw that some people said zeros were not in Burma. I thought this was true too until i saw a special on the flying tigers the other night. so i looked it up. turns out Claire Chennault and his tigers were the first to go up against the a6m2. this being the case, Chennault was instrumental in warning his superiors of the flight characteristics of the zeke. just thought id throw in my two cents. all.
Matre
Your source is incorrect. Only 15 A6M of early production were sent to the China theater in 1940, long before the AVG was formed. These aircraft were withdrawn after a brief combat trial. One of three lost was recovered by the Chinese. This one was inspected by Chennault at the time, leading to his "white paper" which was sent to the USAAC, and basically ignored.
The AVG NEVER faced the A6M in combat, there were no IJNAF fighter units deployed to the theater during the brief tenure of the AVG, operational from December 7, 1941 thru July 4, 1942.
My regards,
Widewing
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my sources may well be incorrect, however i find it hard to believe that 4 books and 2 movie documentarys are wrong. never meant to start an argument. just wanted to share the results of my research. thanks for taking the time to respond.
Matre
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Originally posted by Matre
my sources may well be incorrect, however i find it hard to believe that 4 books and 2 movie documentarys are wrong. never meant to start an argument. just wanted to share the results of my research. thanks for taking the time to respond.
Heh heh. Believe it.
- oldman
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When I watch the history channel, I judge how good the show was by, how many times in 15 min they say somthing either misleading or compleatly wrong, the number never seams to drop bellow 1 wrong or misleading statement.
The sad thing is that their is realy a lot of truth in that above statement, History chanel shows are often misleading and contain just Wrong statements.
They have very prety pictures though.
When looking at books you nead to consider the source, I have several books with wrong statements in them, or typos, some of which I discovered by posting refrences to them hear, one that springs to mind readly was the thickness of the osty's turet armor, this was from a "Good" refrance source mind you, so even Good books can have mistakes in them.
My sources state as well that No Zero's faught the AVG P40's in China, they faught the Obseleate Ki 27 Nate, and later I beleave some Oscar I's, howeaver I am not 100% certain of the Oscar's.
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ok i apologize, my sources are wrong, however i am compelled to ask widewing and old man what their sources are. and how are you guys so sure that your sources are correct. i am not saying you are wrong. however if my 4 books and 2 movies can be wrong, im sure your sources have the possiblity of being incorrect. not trying to argue...just want to know the real truth about it.
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Originally posted by Matre
ok i apologize, my sources are wrong, however i am compelled to ask widewing and old man what their sources are. and how are you guys so sure that your sources are correct. i am not saying you are wrong. however if my 4 books and 2 movies can be wrong, im sure your sources have the possiblity of being incorrect. not trying to argue...just want to know the real truth about it.
As you should. Off the top of my head, "Zero" by Masatake Okumiya, Jiro Horikoshi and Martin Caidin contains this information. Caidin is a notoriously unreliable "historian" on his own, but when he wrote in conjunction with others, they generally kept him honest. Horikoshi, as I recall, was one of the designers of the Zero, and Okumiya was an IJN staff officer throughout the war.
- oldman
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no need to be rude oldman, was just stating the facts that i was given, and your sources are no more reliable than mine. in addition, a local man does a radio show every fri afternoon. he interviews veterans of WWII and has them tell their stories. yesterday he interviewed a member of the AVG. this pilot made it clear that they DID in fact face the zero, however it was in small numbers. now i understand your protest but i dont think you can get a better source than a man who was in the cockpit in china. for the sake of saving from more argument i am not going to post anymore about this. it started out as a civil discussion and has turned into a bashing session with no one having the right answer. thank you all for responding. see you in the game.
Matre
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no need to be rude oldman, was just stating the facts that i was given, and your sources are no more reliable than mine. in addition, a local man does a radio show every fri afternoon. he interviews veterans of WWII and has them tell their stories. yesterday he interviewed a member of the AVG. this pilot made it clear that they DID in fact face the zero, however it was in small numbers. now i understand your protest but i dont think you can get a better source than a man who was in the cockpit in china. for the sake of saving from more argument i am not going to post anymore about this. it started out as a civil discussion and has turned into a bashing session with no one having the right answer. thank you all for responding. see you in the game.
Matre
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btw sorry for the double post, dont know how that happened.
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Matre. IMO, you haven't been bashed; merely disagreed with by fellows who have been in this particular discussion before. Don't take it too personally.
You make a very good point about revealing sources - I'm interested the 4 books and two movies you mentioned. Could you be more specific about what they are? Piecing together the picture of the war in the Pacific has always been more difficult than the European theater for some reason. Perhaps conditions were so harsh they didn't keep good records, or the records didn't survive.
Thanks,
Oboe
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From what I have read and heard, (accounts by a couple of the AVG on their main website). The AVG never saw a zero besides the one that was dead already. They did, however, believe they were fighting zeros when the oscar showed up. They called them zeros, they thought they were zeros, and I dont think they knew otherwise till much later.
So I dont necessarily think your sources are wrong, just a matter of using the same name for different things.
and old man wasnt being mean, when he said "as you should" it wasnt about the apology, it was about asking for his sources.
erg
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Originally posted by Matre
ok i apologize, my sources are wrong, however i am compelled to ask widewing and old man what their sources are. and how are you guys so sure that your sources are correct. i am not saying you are wrong. however if my 4 books and 2 movies can be wrong, im sure your sources have the possiblity of being incorrect. not trying to argue...just want to know the real truth about it.
You ask a fair question. I have/had friendships with several members of the AVG, including Dick Rossi, Erik Shilling and Chuck Baisden. We lost Erik last year.
In addition, I know Dan Ford, who has done more research on the AVG than anyone else. Dan examined Japanese records and verified that no IJNAF units were in the China/Burma theater during the AVG's tenure. I also have copies of some of Chennault's postwar letters where he states that the AVG never encountered the Zero. Erik and I spent a lot of time researching the exact model of the Curtiss Tomahawk flown by the AVG. We concluded that it was a hybrid. AVG fighters were taken from an existing British contract (substituted with the new P-40D/Kittyhawk I). Hence, they had RAF assigned S/Ns. But, when the planes were actually built, they were manufactured with externally sealed fuel tanks left over from the P-40B production run, and had the external (drop) fuel tank plumbing and shackles omitted that were standard on the P-40C/Tomahawk IIC. Dan accepted this research and later editions of his book were to be ammended (Dan initially believed that the AVG flew the Tomahawk IIC).
It is true that many of the AVG referred to the Ki-43 as a Zero. Several Japanese units, including the 67th Sentai flew the Ki-43 against the AVG.
I recommend Dan's book, "Flying Tigers: Clair Chennault and the American Volunteer Group as a good history. Dan is a little weak in his aviation nomemclature, but he provides material not discovered before.
In addition try these links to my web site for some really neat material written by the above named AVG members.
Erik Shilling (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling.html)
Dick Rossi (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Rossi-AVG.html)
R.T. Smith (http://home.att.net/~ww2aircraft/RTSmith1.html)
My regards,
Widewing
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This is definately my final post on this subject....i apologize to all, and i stand corrected. i had my friend who interviewed this AVG pilot on the radio, call the pilot to verify his statement due to the information given me by Widewing (thanks wide). the pilot apologized giving the explanation that he was old and that he had confused his AVG days with his later dealings in the war. he explained that they had termed the "nick" the "zero" so he naturally associated it with his later encounters with the a6m2. thank you all for your posts.
all.
Matre
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burma was OK. Last time I flew in there I got double teamed by honch and that redneck from Raliegh (won't mention any names but his initials are leviathn). One on one, they didn't want any though:)
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widewing, isn't Dan Ford Persona non grata among the ex AVGers. I believe Shilling in particulary had no small amount of animosity towards him and the accuracy of his materials.
Here's an example.
http://yarchive.net/mil/ford_book.html
Charon
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Originally posted by -ammo-
burma was OK. Last time I flew in there I got double teamed by honch and that redneck from Raliegh (won't mention any names but his initials are leviathn). One on one, they didn't want any though:)
I'm realistic about my chances against a higher, faster Zero who's conserving his energy and E fighting my P-40E.
So yeah, I called in a distraction. :D
And it's Durham, damnit! I live in North Durham county and commute to Chapel Hill. Raleigh's just full of hicks 'n stuff.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I know you told me that before, sorry bout that. Was a fun little detup in burma, and was cool to meet some really good pilots on the opposing side.
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Originally posted by Charon
widewing, isn't Dan Ford Persona non grata among the ex AVGers. I believe Shilling in particulary had no small amount of animosity towards him and the accuracy of his materials.
Here's an example.
http://yarchive.net/mil/ford_book.html
Charon
Initially, when Ford's book was published, the AVG in general took exception to some of Ford's facts and opinions. I also read through the book and discovered 78 individual errors of fact, but all were related to the aircraft and technology.
Perhaps the biggest dispute arose from Ford's use of "reconstructed" records put together by several Japanese historians. Virtually all loss records of units that fought the AVG were destroyed at the end of the war. These newly reconstructed records cut the number of AVG kills in half. As you can imagine, this upset the AVG members considerably. I count myself among those who view the reconstructed records as overly optimistic, if not deliberately fraudulent.
Much of Ford's defense for his position depended upon the fact that many kills were not confirmed by actual wreckage. However, many Japanese wrecks have been discovered that were not claimed by the AVG, or its offspring, the China Air Task Force. Yet, these wrecks are not accounted for in reconstructed records either. So, where did they come from?
Erik's dispute with Ford largely centered in the Curtiss fighter model flown by the AVG, among some lesser disagreements. However, over the course of years, Erik and Ford worked out their differences and actually came to establish a cordial relationship.
Yet, many of the AVG still dislike Ford, despite Ford's efforts to smooth over the issues. Dan genuinely admires the Flying Tiger vets. Although, his original resistance to criticism was stubborn, bordering on arrogant.
That said, Ford's book is still a very good source on the AVG. Contention aside, it is always wise to supplement any one work with others to obtain some real balance. This is why I offered additional material, and suggest that anyone interested in the AVG obtain several sources of info, including books written by members and Chennault as well.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks, that clears it up.
Charon