Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1stpar3 on March 26, 2014, 02:32:07 AM
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Ok, quick question. How do you judge enemy e status? I know that could give you carpal tunnel answering that, but how do " YOU" do it. Please don't tell me its when you stall but he goes higher and kills me. That doesn't work so well, in my opinion :bhead Any tips would be appreciate it. Thanks :pray
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The icons distance display can give you a general idea of what another planes E state is. I'm sure they're a few tricks guys know of, but I think the ability to correctly judge you opponents E something you just learn through trial and error, ive been blown away more times than I can count while hanging on my prop.
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Pretty much this is the order of my thought process when flying around an area with enemy contacts.
1) Are they higher or lower than me? And are they climbing (Gaining Potential Energy at a loss for Kinetic) or diving (Gaining Kinetic Energy at a loss for Potential)
2) How fast are they going? And in what direction? [Sometimes, because of their heading and alt it looks like they are going "slow" when really they are rocketing around. Just take a second to observe.]
3) What plane are they in, and how does its engine, and energy retention compare to mine, as well as maneuverability throughout varying speeds? Essentially know what each plane is capable of at varying e-states
4) At what alt, and how fast am I going?
Some tips for learning how to establish all this.
1) Whenever you see a 262 (Or 163) in a fur ball (Friendly or Enemy) just watch them for a minute and they will provide you a good look at what a plane looks like when they are going 400-600mph!
2) When examining a co-alt con at a far distance (Usually out of icon range) look at his relationship to the horizon as well as your noses relationship to the horizon to establish this ( One thing I have noticed is that often times an enemy co-alt with you will *appear* to be slightly lower than you at a distance when really they are co-alt or slightly higher, usually about ~1-1.5k higher than you. )
3) Try not to rely too much on the icon distances, they can be very very deceptive.
But as the Glzsqd noted, you just kinda have to observe and learn through trial and error.
Judging E states is the first part of situation awareness, it is observation of the body language of the plane, similar to a cop or race car driver observing the body language of a car. As you watch fights unfold, you will begin to notice certain movements as certain maneuvers or directional changes. A lot of the times while in a fur-ball, I can tell you exactly which plane is looking and whom based on positioning and energy states (of their plane and others) way before that plane starts its dive or makes it obvious who they are attacking.
Don't just focus on your enemies e-states, also look at your friendlies E states as well. Look at who is engaged with who, who is looking at who, who can potentially attack who, try to see the battle unfolding before it does!
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Watching for one. Second, fly the plane set and learn the strength and weaknesses of the airplanes. For example Iif you are being chased by a k4 they do not like turning right near stall and their roll rate is awful at high speeds. Never turn fight a ki43 unless you are in a ki43. El state I have found to be nothing more than a breadth of understanding the other aircraft.
If you flew a p38 much you would know that you can hold your nose up and accurately fire at a bnz swing and miss. Knowing how far that airplane can reach out with its gunss, and how long it can hold that aoa is probably more important then "e state" because that 38 is doing all of that mostly e-less.
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In the beginning you are better off assuming they have more E and go from there. Plane types too are important. Planes like a K4 can make E really quickly.
Go to the dueling arena, take off over the lake but stay at about takeoff altitude. You will come in below most reds. Plenty of opportunity to judge E. Giving the other guy the advantage in the DA is one of the best training exercises I have found. K4s high 190s and spit 16 are the norm but take a lesser plane to give them the advantage. Don't worry about being shot down, this is pure training at its best.
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This is a very important skill.. up there with gunnery.. and knowing what your opponents plane is capable of..
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Judge not, that ye be not judged. :old:
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Your proximity to eachother throughout maneuvers is a good way to judge... in other words if you have 2k of separation after a merge one of you probably has a bunch of E.
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I judge E states mostly by just knowing what the plane is capable of. For instance, if I'm in my 109G2 and I see a P-40 about 2K below me I know the maximum speed he can be going right now is about 300mph while I can look at my airspeed gauge and see I'm cruising along at about 350mph. Of course he could be slower than that if he's been climbing or maneuvering recently, but always assume your opponent is at their maximum speed until proven otherwise. I know he's going to have to use up that speed to climb to me and he doesn't have a very good climbing plane, so by the time he covers that 2K of altitude he'll be at about 200mph. I also judge E states by how quickly they close on me. If I can see that P-40 is actually climbing up to me and closing rather quickly then it's a good sign that he probably dove down to build up excessive speed beforehand which put his speed closer to 350-400.
Now I just look at any plane in the sky for a second or two and I can pretty much read his E state immediately. I don't know how I do, but I can just kind of picture myself in his plane and tell how fast he's going.
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Judge not, that ye be not judged. :old:
:lol Man I've heard that all my life, mostly from people that have no idea what it means. :rofl Not implying you don't Lusche. :cheers:
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No idea how to explain it, but its vital to doing well. I spend a lot of time guessing E states and then testing it by offering a rope or climbing one myself. Along with judging E states, "hiding" your own E can be effective. If I'm in a fight and I'm doing ok, I sometimes don't gather all the E I can when I spend alt or throttle. When my opponent gets comfortable with where my limits seems to be, I can sometime use the extra little bit I haven't shown yet to get an advantage.
I die a lot...a whole lot, so ignore any advise from me :D
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Most time u can't really tell what the opponent E is. The only way to do it is to average or merg with the enemy at a slow turn rate. When u do this u will be able to get a idea of how fast he is going. Note that u can never judge the E 100%. It take experience and knowledge of the planes.
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What I like to do is look at the guy and see how fast he's going.
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Most time u can't really tell what the opponent E is. The only way to do it is to average or merg with the enemy at a slow turn rate. When u do this u will be able to get a idea of how fast he is going. Note that u can never judge the E 100%. It take experience and knowledge of the planes.
this is completely false...sorry bud....
I have zero problem judging E states...and very rarely do I get it wrong.
when you are new..the counter on the icon is the best tell.....
once your SA gets better you will see the dot before icon range and know where he is coming from.....
you will know if it just dropped from 20k...IE massive E
if he climbed up to position...minimal E.....
now SA is more then just seeing the nme as they arrive...SA includes knowing the nme plane...its capabilities....
you see a zero dropping on you.... has massive E..(obviously he hasn't De-throttled)..you know his turn rate sucks arse....you can easily get in behind him and get the kill.....
but if he has dethrottled his turn rate is awesome and will be very difficult to get behind....
but all of that is moot if you cant hit your target....
AIM is the most important aspect of dogfighting....
trust me.... learn to AIM first....everything else will follow.... :aok
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Ok, quick question. How do you judge enemy e status? I know that could give you carpal tunnel answering that, but how do " YOU" do it. Please don't tell me its when you stall but he goes higher and kills me. That doesn't work so well, in my opinion :bhead Any tips would be appreciate it. Thanks :pray
Closure rates.
ack-ack
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E status has two measures for me-
First, my TAS.
Second, my TAS in relation to my enemy/target and my immediate position/angle of attack in relation to my goal.
It is all relative to what the goal is, to me it is more about "do I have enough" vs "how much do I have". YMMV
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If you feel confident enough in your ability to not get caught during a furball. Reduce throttle by about half until you actually need full and or WEP to climb or run away. Then place your head on a constant swivel watching everything. You will find the majority of players roar around at full throttle or even WEP all the time while in combat. If you are at half throttle this becomes obvious like night and day. Your worst enemy in most engagements is your own E bank being too full and veteran ACM players allowing you to kill yourself with that.
What you may find in the beginning of this exercise is the fight will pass you by. Even diving in at half throttle will gain you speed but, in many cases you will get to the dinner table late. Still, how often have you dove in on WEP trying to take advantage, and been back in the tower scratching your head because a well known name shot you down for your trouble. That E state you wanted to judge was your own more than his.
Though, when attacked, especially from above, your lower speed will allow you more control over the outcome of your evasive. Including if you even need to towards the end of it, going WEP suddenly and performing an E state changeup of your own. Or slowing down rapidly enough to magically pop your flaps out. Ever hear the old saw about going slower around a circle gets you there faster?
Ask yourself honestly. Which E state is really getting you shot down? The muppets in the DA can help you with the more aggressive aspects of that, along with the Trainers in the TA can ground you in the a,b,c's on a personal 1 to 1 basis. Spend an hour with a Trainer on this subject and you will have better outcomes in the MA. Spend a week in the DA after that with the muppets, and you will be a holy terror in the MA. Ever fight pepprr in her pink spit?
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It's all feel for me, on first merge sometimes it's hard to judge and opponents can hide energy by flying fast and low, but once you begin to approach, you will start to get a feel for closure rates. If you truly don't know at the point of the first merge, it shouldn't take long to figure out.
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Judge not, that ye be not judged. :old:
Wow! Nice, but that's why I want to be able to judge. The golden rule is in that book as well. I am not asking for much,just ability to do unto others as they do unto me! Or, before they can do unto me would be better. Thanks tho, I needed that :salute
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If you feel confident enough in your ability to not get caught during a furball. Reduce throttle by about half until you actually need full and or WEP to climb or run away. Then place your head on a constant swivel watching everything. You will find the majority of players roar around at full throttle or even WEP all the time while in combat. If you are at half throttle this becomes obvious like night and day. Your worst enemy in most engagements is your own E bank being too full and veteran ACM players allowing you to kill yourself with that.
What you may find in the beginning of this exercise is the fight will pass you by. Even diving in at half throttle will gain you speed but, in many cases you will get to the dinner table late. Still, how often have you dove in on WEP trying to take advantage, and been back in the tower scratching your head because a well known name shot you down for your trouble. That E state you wanted to judge was your own more than his.
Though, when attacked, especially from above, your lower speed will allow you more control over the outcome of your evasive. Including if you even need to towards the end of it, going WEP suddenly and performing an E state changeup of your own. Or slowing down rapidly enough to magically pop your flaps out. Ever hear the old saw about going slower around a circle gets you there faster?
Ask yourself honestly. Which E state is really getting you shot down? The muppets in the DA can help you with the more aggressive aspects of that, along with the Trainers in the TA can ground you in the a,b,c's on a personal 1 to 1 basis. Spend an hour with a Trainer on this subject and you will have better outcomes in the MA. Spend a week in the DA after that with the muppets, and you will be a holy terror in the MA. Ever fight pepprr in her pink spit?
Oh yes! She is bad arse! I have run into her a few times,never had very long to even consider her e state :angel:
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Thanks guys! I greatly appreciate the input. I now have at least somewhat of an idea, and how to learn it. Thanks again :salute
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Closure rates.
ack-ack
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Except the ack-ack part.
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if he crashes into you then his e was a bit higher than yours.
semp