Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Acidrain on September 16, 2011, 07:18:30 PM
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No report of injuries but it sounds bad :salute
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695/ns/us_news-life/t/report-plane-crashes-stands-reno-air-races/?gt1=43001
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"officials told local media at least 30 people were seriously injured. "
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.
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Flying magazine said on facebook multiple fatalities.
I've got friends at reno - I hope they are alright?
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Nova of AoM may be there based on his FB message 5 hours ago. Left him a message...
There's a video in that news article Acid posted.
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What a tragedy :(.
http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/Plane_Crash_Reported_at_Reno_Air_Races_129996533.html
75 injured, 25 in critical condition.
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Minimum of 75 injured, 25 critical, possibly as many as 100 or more. It was Jimmy Leeward in Galloping Ghost, steep angle dive, no pull out at all, and massive debris field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNePeKn3Tg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNePeKn3Tg)
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Good god.
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Nova is ok
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Video and eyewitnesses said Galloping Ghost started wobbling, then pulled up really hard, tumbled like an involuntary lomcevak and then came down.
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:(
My condolences to the families of those who have died and my thoughts to those who have been injured.
Horrid accident.
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You can get hurt doing anything, can't you? Sad. Looked like he was going straight down without pulling up at all...? All you can do is hope you go doing something you love & don't take anyone with you. :salute
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:salute To the injured and wishing them a speedy recovery.
I'm more interested in finding out WHY it crashed. IF he didn't pull out, must've been a problem with the elevators or control stick.
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:salute To the injured and wishing them a speedy recovery.
I'm more interested in finding out WHY it crashed. IF he didn't pull out, must've been a problem with the elevators or control stick.
Thats what thet are supposed to do, they are supposed to climb up out of the race if something is wrong. Sending prayers out to the families. This indeed is a horrible tragedy.
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Sent chills down my body watching it hit. :pray :salute :(
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You can get hurt doing anything, can't you? Sad. Looked like he was going straight down without pulling up at all...?
That was the vantage point of that particular video. It didn't catch the pull up. They have video on the opposite end where the P-51 zooms up. Eyewitness reports from the races talked about how Galloping Ghost appeared to wobble in the air before he pulled it up. Other eyewitnesses reported the P-51 going up very steeply then tumbling out of control and then coming down inverted into the crowd.
A horrific crash indeed. :(
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Sent chills down my body watching it hit. :pray :salute :(
Glad we're in cartoon planes, huh? me too :pray :angel:
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That was the vantage point of that particular video. It didn't catch the pull up. They have video on the opposite end where the P-51 zooms up. Eyewitness reports from the races talked about how Galloping Ghost appeared to wobble in the air before he pulled it up. Other eyewitnesses reported the P-51 going up very steeply then tumbling out of control and then coming down inverted into the crowd.
A horrific crash indeed. :(
What I saw was not inverted or tumbling, but nose first and straight in...? I wasn't there? who knows...
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Full throttle, nose down from what I have read.In any case very sad though. :(
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That is sad indeed. You go to see great family fun, and it ends up turning into death and chaos...
:pray to the victims, killed or injuried.
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Wow, condolences to all those involved :(. I wonder if it was mechanical or pilot error though? I've heard reports that he possibly blacked out in a stunt but also reports that he made a mayday call which would make me think it was mechanical. :salute
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Wow, condolences to all those involved :(. I wonder if it was mechanical or pilot error though? I've heard reports that he possibly blacked out in a stunt but also reports that he made a mayday call which would make me think it was mechanical. :salute
He may have blacked out but not from a stunt, he was racing, and Reno racers don't do stunts, it's like NASCAR in the air, they fly left hand circles as fast as they can.
Photos taken just before impact reveal that an elevator trim tab separated, which at 400+ kias could very well cause a violent high-G pitch up as the elevator deflects so fast the pilot could not react in time, or was may have been physically unable to overcome, which could have led to him blacking out. Also in another frame no helmet is visible through the canopy, which would support that idea.
All pure speculation of course. I'll wait for the NTSB report, but that tab separating definitely had something to do with it, whether as a cause or effect, probably it's some of both.
A very, very sad day indeed. Crappy weekend for aviation all around, yesterday an RV-6 went down in a school parking lot near here killing the pilot. I almost went to Reno this year but couldn't work it out, kinda glad I missed this year now.
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Thoughts and prayers to those who are affected by this incident. Hope all is well. :angel:
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Nova is ok
glad to hear that
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http://www.livestream.com/loadedtv/video?clipId=pla_b2efcd7d-ed04-4edf-89e8-f21ff436ccb4
go to 39 minute marker. Cant be certain but it looks like the aircraft impacted right in a group of seating.
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full throttle? he must have been unconcious
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He was and old guy, maybe he had a natural causes problem midflight. Tragic.
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News clips included a pre-race interview with the pilot, who is purported to be 74. He looked 20 years younger and in top physical shape.
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News clips included a pre-race interview with the pilot, who is purported to be 74. He looked 20 years younger and in top physical shape.
I just saw this on the news this morning. Yep, he was 74 and had been flying since he was 14.
I'm speechless.
:pray for all.
Coogan
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On one of the videos out there, you can hear the doppler effect of the engine screaming in and then a horrific THUD. Still gives me chills. <S> and RIP.. :angel:
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Wife just woke me up to tell me this news. I thought I left the game on, when she said a p51 augered. What damn tragedy, when i saw it was the news report on my screen instead of the game. <S> to all those who witnesed that. Godbless those that hurt and dead. :salute
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http://www.livestream.com/loadedtv/video?clipId=pla_b2efcd7d-ed04-4edf-89e8-f21ff436ccb4
go to 39 minute marker. Cant be certain but it looks like the aircraft impacted right in a group of seating.
It did. Video on youtube from the stands right behind the crash shows it. Pretty sure there is fatalities on the video.
What I saw was not inverted or tumbling, but nose first and straight in...? I wasn't there? who knows...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e60_W4tuTNI
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The video Slash posted shows Galloping Ghost pitching up, rolling inverted but remaining in some form of vertical turn and crashing into the ground.
Taken seconds before the crash, notice the left elevator trim tab is missing.
(http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2011/09/16/20/42/M9KqM.St.4.jpg)
Washington Post & LA Times Reports...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/vintage-plane-crashes-near-grandstand-at-nevada-air-race-killing-3-and-injuring-more-than-50/2011/09/17/gIQAQTBJZK_story_1.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-reno-air-show-crash-20110917,0,1484326.story
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:pray
flak
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The pic DTango posted. I see the trim tab missing. Does it look like the pilot's helmet is on the dash too? He's either blacked out or had some other medical problem if I had to guess. Truely tragic. :salute
<edit> can also see some kind of smoke coming from the radiator outlet.
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The pic DTango posted. I see the trim tab missing. Does it look like the pilot's helmet is on the dash too? He's either blacked out or had some other medical problem if I had to guess. Truely tragic. :salute
Good thing you're not the ones who have to guess. If you don't know what flutter can do to an airplane then you don't have any business saying such baseless malarkey. From the moment this guy had a problem the airplane was trying to rip itself apart at 400knots and a few hundred feet from the ground.
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Those were very difficult videos to watch on the news and youtube....
I spoke with a retired racer last night.. He agrees with me that until the experts review all of the video evidence (frame by frame) and do an exhaustive investigation, there's no way to accurately guess at what happened. Flutter is a very strong candidate. My friend raced a P-51D and said that trim tabs sometimes rip away when exposed to extreme loading, so it could a cause or an effect. Either way, GLOC was a real possibility under the loads that Mustang was under (likely around 450 mph initially).
This is a terribly tragic event... We'll have to wait until the NTSB releases a report as to what happened, or probably happened.
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http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/09/17/von-air-show-crash.dwilson&iref=NS1
Holy hell.
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Devil505,
That was the video showing him inverted at about 1500 feet. Others show the near vertical dive with the last second "course correction" most think was pilot input to get as far from the spectators as he could.
Jimmy was a true professional, and like all the pilots who fly the RARA event, would do anything in their power to not hurt anyone. We believe the last second move away from the near vertical dive was indeed a last second effort to save those spectators.
Rest in Peace, Jimmy, and thank you for over 40 years of exciting races and taking the time to talk to us civilians in your pit. :angel: :salute
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The communication team on the ground reported Jimmy giving several Mayday calls prior to impact. I guess that rules out the possibility of a blacked out pilot. Jimmys family were sitting in that section but I don't know the extent of their injuries (if any).
God Speed Jimmy. Your the best.
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Ok, Here's a scary shot
(http://o.b5z.net/i/u/10095434/i/p51.jpg)
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I AM SHOKED
My Brother "Pag1" wanted to visit the Airshow but they decided not an went visiting Relatives with his wife
He forgot to Recharge his Iphone .
I was ready to take the Next plane to USA, than he called me in Germany he dindt went there....
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(http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/CTU9Bl9XKXlYA2yWeeE1zw242016) Good-bye Jimmy :salute
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On one of the videos out there, you can hear the doppler effect of the engine screaming in and then a horrific THUD. Still gives me chills. <S> and RIP.. :angel:
This is that video the thud really is disturbing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNtERSeYMUM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNtERSeYMUM&feature=related)
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Reno P.D. now states that nine lives perished in the crash. What a tragedy.
Very sad for the pilot, the risk of flying is his to bare and he did so willingly, but I cant help but feel terrible for those people watching the races that lost their lives. Air racing as a spectator sport has been largely free of risk, until yesterday.
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:angel: Jimmy
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<edit> can also see some kind of smoke coming from the radiator outlet.
That plane does not have a radiator inlet (or outlet). It was removed, that is most likely not smoke but steam from the boil-off cooling system, and it is perfectly normal.
I just read through some of the comments on a news site regarding this, and a local crash on Thursday. The general public's, and media's ignorance when it comes to aviation never ceased to amaze me. I don't blame people so much as the media who always fail to seek any kind of understanding in their stories. The one that's coming up a lot is Jimmy's age (74) which gets reported and commented on like he was nearly in a wheelchair, while failing to mention that he had to pass a class 3 medical to fly just the same as a 17 yr old. I bet that 74 yr old was in better shape then some men half his age. And hardly anyone, no matter the age, is going to be able to ride out a sudden pitch up and deceleration of 10 Gs without G-LOC.
In the local crash which was an RV-6 they keep reporting it was experimental (with raised eyebrows and added voice inflection) without ever explaining what that means. So that in many folks mind the word "experimental" conjures images of some crazy, unproven, unsafe design, and the media does nothing to help people understand what that really means.
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Pictures surfacing that the trim tab broke off
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Pictures surfacing that the trim tab broke off
Missing trim tab picture was online 1 hour after the crash, Mr. Raptor05, as were a number of darn good video's taken from different locations, so, by knowing the area, I can tell from about the angle they were shot.
Yes, the "smoke" seen from the bottom of the plane is indeed steam from the cooling system, which had a heat exchanger installed, rather than a radiator.
Also heard that Disney/Pixar had many camera's going, filming for an upcoming film, so will look forward to seeing what they got, after NTSB is through with them....maybe.
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That plane does not have a radiator inlet (or outlet). It was removed, that is most likely not smoke but steam from the boil-off cooling system, and it is perfectly normal.
I just read through some of the comments on a news site regarding this, and a local crash on Thursday. The general public's, and media's ignorance when it comes to aviation never ceased to amaze me. I don't blame people so much as the media who always fail to seek any kind of understanding in their stories. The one that's coming up a lot is Jimmy's age (74) which gets reported and commented on like he was nearly in a wheelchair, while failing to mention that he had to pass a class 3 medical to fly just the same as a 17 yr old. I bet that 74 yr old was in better shape then some men half his age. And hardly anyone, no matter the age, is going to be able to ride out a sudden pitch up and deceleration of 10 Gs without G-LOC.
In the local crash which was an RV-6 they keep reporting it was experimental (with raised eyebrows and added voice inflection) without ever explaining what that means. So that in many folks mind the word "experimental" conjures images of some crazy, unproven, unsafe design, and the media does nothing to help people understand what that really means.
Ignorance is bliss nowadays, well said.
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Noticed that the tail gear was extended moments before the crash. Wonder how bad the malfunction was? Thought this would be retracted in flight.
INFIDELZ
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Noticed that the tail gear was extended moments before the crash. Wonder how bad the malfunction was? Thought this would be retracted in flight.
INFIDELZ
Some of the unlimited P-51's do not have the retractable rear wheel. Although in this case, I believe he did have it, as most of the inflight pictures I have seen of NX79111 do not show the wheel. G Force pulled it out?
Awating the NTSB report for factual, as opposed to best guess, information.
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Tail wheel came out (no doubt) as a result of g-load causing uplock failure. Had the tail wheel not retracted after take-off, he would have aborted before the race started. Know of no unlimited warbird racer with a fixed tail wheel.
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Nova is ok
Thanks for keeping peeps updated Scotch.. :)
Here's how I saw it..
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,320371.msg4175942.html#msg4175942
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I just read through some of the comments on a news site regarding this, and a local crash on Thursday. The general public's, and media's ignorance when it comes to aviation never ceased to amaze me. I don't blame people so much as the media who always fail to seek any kind of understanding in their stories. The one that's coming up a lot is Jimmy's age (74) which gets reported and commented on like he was nearly in a wheelchair, while failing to mention that he had to pass a class 3 medical to fly just the same as a 17 yr old. I bet that 74 yr old was in better shape then some men half his age. And hardly anyone, no matter the age, is going to be able to ride out a sudden pitch up and deceleration of 10 Gs without G-LOC.
Not sure why you are amazed by the public’s lack of aviation knowledge. The public uses aviation for transportation and care only when they feel unsafe or are told that they are unsafe. There is no knowledge test to purchase a airline ticket.
Your faith in the aviation medical honor system is misplaced. I’ve been active in aviation and aviation flight instruction for 30 years now. The 3rd class medical is based on the applicant telling the medical examiner what’s wrong with him. Unless the pilot has a chronic condition that the examiner can detect with a simple medical exam, they issue the 3rd class. The word among pilots is never admit to anything.
The medical examiner will determine exactly what medications the pilot was actually taking, if any, and whether the pilot should have surrendered his 3rd class.
My personal feeling is that the aircraft failed and not the pilot. But my fear is that the medical evidence is going to show something else and muddy the waters.
I don’t know to many 74 year olds that don’t take at least one medication that would have required them to submit for a class 2 or even a Class 1.
I’m always suspect of an aging pilot flying on a 3rd class medical when they come to me for a Bi-annual flight review. I know the list of meds I’m taking requires me to pass a Class 2 ever 12 months not 24 months and my medical examine included a nuclear stress test and complete blood work up. If I hadn’t been honest think of all the money I’d save. A flight instructor only needs a 3rd class.
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I keep watching the video, and cannot for the life of me figure out what happened.
Has there been any conclusive news?
Would flutter be caused by a broken trim tab, or cause a broken trim tab? Furthermore, what causes flutter anyway?
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The trim tab was seen "flagging" before it departed which could have been exerted substantial force to the elevator.
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the way this laymen takes it the plane was trimmed for 450 plus.{lucky for us we have combat trim.}
that down trim would be halved as soon as the trim tab broke,pushing the plane into a noseup configuration so suddenly that "Jimmy" was G locked.
the erattic roll and subsequent crash would be contributed to the plane flying on it's own. this happened a few years back but that pilot was lucky enough that his plane did not roll inverted and crash.he was able to overcome the G lock and land VOODOO.the problem being people go to these events and expect to be perfectly safe,that is impossible. not to mention the Media that actually loves these kind of tragedies because now they have something to show us laymen,then they hype it and keep it going for a few days.sad
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I think the days of air racing are over. At least with an audience present. Reno was the last one anyways wasnt it? I cant see the event surviving the lawsuites.
Dang shame. All around a dang shame.
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I keep watching the video, and cannot for the life of me figure out what happened.
Has there been any conclusive news?
Would flutter be caused by a broken trim tab, or cause a broken trim tab? Furthermore, what causes flutter anyway?
Might be easiest to just steer you to the info. I haven't read all of this, but skimming through it it looks like the explanation I've always gone with.
http://www.cs.wright.edu/~jslater/SDTCOutreachWebsite/aerodynamic_flutter_banner.pdf
I've experienced flutter with two of my RC airplanes. The first one I was doing dives to build speed and timing myself over a marked path trying to calculate speed. On my "biggest and bestest" dive, the instant i touched the stick to begin pulling out I heard a very brief (milliseconds?) "buzz" followed by a sound like a shotgun blast as my wing turned itself into pieces the size of golf balls and baseballs. From what I saw I believe it was aileron flutter.
The second time I experienced it, it was with an elevator, and although I basically lost effectiveness I was able to slow down by cutting throttle, regain control as the flutter stopped, and was able to land.
In RC, you'll be likely to see it if you have "gappy" hinges between the wing and the control surface where air can pass through. I like to tape over my hinge gaps now. Also, if there's slop in your pushrods or where the clevis meets the control horn. If you can wiggle the surface up/down without moving the pushrod, or while moving the pushrod but not the servo, you have a candidate for flutter.
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Interesting, thanks for the info.
It's so surreal watching those videos...
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The planes are awe inspiring in flight and when things go wrong.
It's hard to fathom just what might have went through all those folks heads as they saw what was transpiring.
It's a damn shame.
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I'm gratful that at least one pwerson who died was probably unconscious. :pray :salute
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I believe that plane was heavily modified. Control surface areas were decreased. Size of the wings decreased. I feel as if aerodynamic changes caused elevator control flutter issues at the high speed. I wonder if the elevators were balanced properly. This dislodged the trim tab causing an extreme pitchup moment. Mr. Leeward was not anticipating this and Glock'ed. I would imagine the Reno aircraft fly around that course with a considerable amount of nose down trim. Which was relieved when his trim tab broke. I feel Mr Leeward was passed out slumped over foward in his seat when he impacted. This may explain why it appears the engine was still at race throttle setting when it hit.
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I can't imagine a man or women of any age withstanding that much G in that instant. There will be more information forthcoming, just not as soon as we would wish.
God bless all of the enthusiast's and their families.
Infidelz.
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Here are some facts, in an interview before the accident the pilot said they had removed ten feet from the wing span and had done some other mods to get up to "jet" speed, around 500 mph, he said he thought the "systems" could handle the stress but they weren't postive. I saw a video of the interview. The elevator trim tab did separate in flight, there is one video where you can see it come off. In another video you can see the plane go into a tight violent verticle loop right after the trim tab leaves and go into the ground. Those are the facts that I have seen in videos.
My opinion is that when the trim tab came off the plane pitched up violently and went up, over and into the ground, I think the pilot was then unconsious or pinned forward and unable to control the plane. It could be a while before the NTSB releases a finding.
It is sad. In the United States much is done to make airshows safe, but bad things still can happen.
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Unofficial comment from an unnamed source who claims to have seen the telemetry system report says there was a slight engine slowdown at top, as if by fuel starvation, then coming back to full power. Also got a spike of 11 G's.
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they had done some other mods to get up to "jet" speed, around 500 mph, he said he thought the "systems" could handle the stress but they weren't postive.
New video supposedly. Doesn't show much that hasn't already been seen, but what is telling is the response heard from people as they realized something was not going right. I counted off 6 seconds between the first indications of danger and the actual impact. So fast, so tragic.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/09/20/ac-reno-brent-wilson.cnn?iref=allsearch
Also,
http://www.airrace.org/