Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lengro on September 13, 2007, 10:54:48 AM
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Yesterday, ghosth kindly pointed out too me, that it is offensive to refer to a 'japanese plane' - when I only type the first 3 letters of 'japanese'.
It came as a big surprise for me - and made me wonder if us non-native english speakers often sounds ignorant or offensive on text-radio or vox without knowing it?
I guess its also the reason that I use too many smiley's when I write - my way of saying "hey, if I offended you it was not my intend"
My point is - I appreciate people tells me if I sound offensive - (because I am a nice guy - really :)) - instead of silence.
Thank you, ghosth!
Now, carry on
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I was in the TA and the first thing in the text was "lengro: TY for the enlish leesons
" (or something like that). It got me wondering "School on AH2?" So that's what it was all about huh. I respect people who are always willing to help out fellow members rather than just 'flame' them. Ghosth!
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See Rule #5
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Calm down redrum. This has nothing to do with being "PC". I detest that term as well. It has everything to do with being respectful and mindful of being part of an international community.
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It's not the place to discuss it here and possibly foul up this thread, but if someone who is Japanese could kindly PM me and explain just why that is offensive, and what the preferred shorthand is, I'd appreciate it, as that's always blown my mind as well.
Or if a non-Japanese person knows the clear cut answer, that'd work too.
Anyway, if you didn't know about it, don't worry about it if you don't do it again :)
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If you simply put a period after the 3 letter word in queston, it makes it an abbreviation.
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Does that make the term 'Brit' offensive as well?
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Originally posted by toonces3
Does that make the term 'Brit' offensive as well?
No, but Limey can be offensive to some.
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Originally posted by Vudak
It's not the place to discuss it here and possibly foul up this thread, but if someone who is Japanese could kindly PM me and explain just why that is offensive, and what the preferred shorthand is, I'd appreciate it, as that's always blown my mind as well.
It's all in context and not how the term was (technically) coined.
Before, during and after the WWII, Japanese were considered lesser race, subhumans, etc and abbreviated word was widely used in that context including in all the gov war propaganda.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
It's all in context and not how the term was (technically) coined.
Before, during and after the WWII, Japanese were considered lesser race, subhumans, etc and abbreviated word was widely used in that context including in all the gov war propaganda.
So it's one of those things that probably wouldn't be a problem being used in real life with the proper voice inflection making it clear that you're not using it in a derogatory way? Which of course text can't get across?
Am I following correctly?
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It's kind of like cuss words. It's not the "word" that's bad, it's how the listener feels about the word.
I have no issue with using that term to decribe someone from Japan, but since THEY might, I refrain from it's use.
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I do not find it offensive. I use it because it's easier than to type out the whole word. "Jap" and "Japanese" are the same to me.
I'm not japanese. Does that mean I can't be offended too when someone abbreviates a word?
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:O Skuzzy's back! YAY! :lol
Very well put Scca :aok
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Originally posted by toonces3
Does that make the term 'Brit' offensive as well?
The term 'Brit' can be offensive depending who is using it and in one context.
Just look at the Irish troubles.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I do not find it offensive. I use it because it's easier than to type out the whole word. "Jap" and "Japanese" are the same to me.
I'm not japanese. Does that mean I can't be offended too when someone abbreviates a word?
Regardless if you're Japanese or not, how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them. Why is that so hard to understand?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Vudak
So it's one of those things that probably wouldn't be a problem being used in real life with the proper voice inflection making it clear that you're not using it in a derogatory way? Which of course text can't get across?
Not quite. Because of past usage (context) it is offensive word no matter in what context it is used today. It may take few generations more before it is acceptable again.
To understand that better you'd have to go back to 19th century when Asian people (mainly Chinese and Japanese) were brought in US as cheap labor to build railroads and work on the farms.
In the West white americans were blaming them for their economic misery and anti-asian movements started (using inferior race card) and from then on the things got worse.
War started in Europe, due to German-Japanese alignment, curfew was imposed on all Japanese-Americans, they were banned from universities (so they couldn't learn German and spy for them) and after Pearl Harbor they ended in internment camps.
The quote by famous war correspondent Ernie Pyle describes American sentiment very accurately:
"In Europe, we felt that our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people, but out here, I soon gathered that the Japanese were looked upon as something subhuman and repulsive; the way some people feel about cockroaches and mice."
And the abbreviated term was used through the period by us to project that sentiment.
PS
Above text should be seen in historical context only.
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I only once haver ever offended someone by saying an abbreviation of japanese. The rest of the time i hope im not:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Regardless if you're Japanese or not, how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them. Why is that so hard to understand?
ack-ack
Exactly my point.
It's how you use it. "Dumb Jap" is one thing, but to just casually say "Jap" in a friendly way online is okay by me.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Not quite. Because of past usage (context) it is offensive word no matter in what context it is used today. It may take few generations more before it is acceptable again.
To understand that better you'd have to go back to 19th century when Asian people (mainly Chinese and Japanese) were brought in US as cheap labor to build railroads and work on the farms.
In the West white americans were blaming them for their economic misery and anti-asian movements started (using inferior race card) and from then on the things got worse.
War started in Europe, due to German-Japanese alignment, curfew was imposed on all Japanese-Americans, they were banned from universities (so they couldn't learn German and spy for them) and after Pearl Harbor they ended in internment camps.
The quote by famous war correspondent Ernie Pyle describes American sentiment very accurately:
"In Europe, we felt that our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people, but out here, I soon gathered that the Japanese were looked upon as something subhuman and repulsive; the way some people feel about cockroaches and mice."
And the abbreviated term was used through the period by us to project that sentiment.
PS
Above text should be seen in historical context only.
Good history lesson.. Hope it's remembered so the same mistakes aren't made in the future.
BTW, nice signiture 2bighorn. Took me a little bit to get it. (One possible answer: Use less elevator)
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Exactly my point.
It's how you use it. "Dumb Jap" is one thing, but to just casually say "Jap" in a friendly way online is okay by me.
I don't think that was his point. It seemed to me that he was saying that it is offensive to japanese people no matter the inflection.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Does that make the term 'Brit' offensive as well?
I don't think there is any context in which 'Brit' is offensive (speaking as a Brit). Even 'Limey' is nearly always used in the context of friendly banter. But the connotations associated with a word differ between cultures, even ones with the same language.
For example I understand that in the US the term 'Paki' is no more offensive than the term 'Brit'. But in England, the term has very negative connotations, almost equivalent to 'the N word'.
But I wouldn't expect you yanks to understand that ;)
Trip
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2bighorn nailed it!
Thanks, 2bighorn for an intelligent and informative post.
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My point was that Brit is a shortened version of British in the same way that Jap is a shortened version of Japanese.
The history lesson of the use of the word Jap is interesting. However, I have to say that if the worst we (the U.S.) could come up with for a slang word to degrade our enemy was to abbreviate their 3 syllable name into a single syllable (that may have been a lot easier to say over a tactical radio during combat, where brevity is the rule), then, well, we needed to try harder. That's a weak insult name.
So, having said all that, I wouldn't say a Japanese person is a Jap, but I have no problem referring to a Japanese plane as a Jap plane. As in "I've got a Jap plane low 3 o'clock", or "Enaging the high Jap."
If seeing the word Jap is the most offensive thing you see on ch 200, consider yourself lucky.
While we're on the subject:
To not win is to 'lose'.
If something is not tight, it is 'loose'.
If you fail to win, you are the 'loser'.
If you untighten something, you make it 'looser'.
Just needed to get that off my chest.
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The Japanese (and Korean) players have always been the most "Class act" in this game. Never have I heard any *****ing or moaning, in ch 200 or in this BBS.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why is that so hard to understand?
To be perfectly blunt, because I'd suppose many of us are white, and as such there really isn't a word out there that "gets to us" as a whole. It's my opinion that this isn't for other's lack of trying, but more so for our own lack of caring.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just trying to show the other side. I've been called every name in the book for "white slur" and have never thought twice about any of them. From what I gather, this is a pretty common reaction. So, I have a *very* difficult time understanding why anyone else would let a word get to them, and as such I'm probably more prone to accidentally offend people than others, simply because I've never seen the big deal about terms or such.
It's one of those cases where one guy says, "How can you not possibly see this as offensive?" and then the next guy says, "How could you possibly see this as offensive?" and then they end up inadvertently offended each other by arguing about it.
So maybe we should just drop it, or bring it to the O'Club :D
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I can't see "Jap" being offensive. In WW2 the term "Nip" was more of a derogatory term than Jap, or so I thought.
Oz
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I re-thought this on my way to class just now.
I was stationed in Japan for a time, and I can't recall a single time in my life I ever referred to a Japanese person as a Jap. We would say, "Are the Japanese flying?"
I was stationed in Keflavik, and we invited British aircrew to exercises all the time, and it was routine to say, "Are the Brits playing?"
However, I never realized the distinction as in my games of War in the Pacific and in AH2, I wouldn't think twice about referring to a Japanese plane as a Jap plane, or a Japanese ship, or island, or whatever.
I think, maybe, something seemed derogatory about calling a person a Jap, without actually realizing I felt that way. I suppose subconsciously it seemed wrong.
Interesting thread. I guess I didn't realize I agreed with some of you after all.
Remember-
lose=not win
loose=not tight
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Yet 'Nip' is short for 'Nipponese'. I believe Japan is Nippon in Japanese.
Oh well, I'm out. Interesting discussion.
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Originally posted by Vudak
I've been called every name in the book for "white slur" and have never thought twice about any of them.
Probably because you have never experienced hardship or injustice associated with those slur words.
After the Dust Bowl disaster in '30s, some half a million of homeless Americans from Great Plains came to California. Mainly farmers who lost everything, most of them settled in Central Valley and were referred to as "Okies". As such (here at least), Okie is considered slur word because many still remember or were told by parents about those events and they won't take that word lightly.
So I'd say, all comes from lack of knowing history, ignorance, rather than anything else.
To everybody who argues about slur words, how they aren't/shouldn't be offensive, take some history lessons.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
To everybody who argues about slur words, how they aren't/shouldn't be offensive, take some history lessons.
If every single black person in the world was offended by the n word, your argument would have some standing...
...But, not every single black person is.
So really it comes down to a matter of personal fortitude, as much as people don't want to hear it.
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Originally posted by Vudak
If every single black person in the world was offended by the n word, your argument would have some standing...
...But, not every single black person is.
But most of black americans are, for a good reason. Mere 4 decades ago racial segregation was common occurrence. As long as racism is well and alive in our great country, N word will be offensive here. Many of them experienced it first hand.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/ColoredDrinking.jpg)
You can argue as much as you want, it really comes down to ignorance.
(hopefully word ignorance does not offend you)
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Offense can only be taken, not given.
With regards to bighorn's Pyle quote- consider also what the Japanese thought of us during the war.
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Perhaps you could say IJN, or IJA, rather than Jap.
"Brit" isn't quite on the same level as "Jap", because British is a nationality - a nation of nations - whereas Japanese is both a nationality and an ethnicity. Jap isn't the kind of thing you would use in polite conversation, and there's no point trying to rationalise that, because language and society are not rational. Rationalising slur words is like trying to impose the Queensberry Rules on a war; nice idea, wrong moggy.
Speaking as a British person, "Brit" is incredibly mild, milder than "Yank" or "Ocker", considerably milder than "Kraut". It's odd that my ancestors had so many words for the Jerries, but the sausage-eaters just had "Tommy" or "Englander schweinhund" in return. "Brit" sounds like the kind of thing an American might say if he wanted to give the impression that he was friends with a British person.
In the context of aircraft, most ethnicities or national terms are shaky because the planes were flown by so many national air forces; I'm sure a Finnish 109 pilot would be miffed if you called him a "Kraut". The IJN/IJA planes are ironically one of the few exceptions to this, as they were AFAIK not flown by non-Japanese forces during WW2 or, if they were, it was very obscure.
(ps I originally referenced "Diamonds are Forever", the bit when Bond shoots the cat, and Blofed says "Right idea, Mr Bond, but wrong cat", except that he doesn't say cat; amusingly, and understandably, it was turned into asterisks. At least in the UK the rhymes-with-plussy word has a tiny, tiny vestige of its former meaning)
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
You can argue as much as you want, it really comes down to ignorance.
(hopefully word ignorance does not offend you)
Yeah, but bighorn... Uh... I know our school systems are horrible and all, but I have my doubts that the black people who aren't offended by the term are ignorant to its history.
Personally, I think Hubs nailed it. Offence is only taken.
With that, I'm going to bow on out of this conversation.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
With regards to bighorn's Pyle quote- consider also what the Japanese thought of us during the war.
Racism and usage of term 'Jap" started long before war. Besides what they did doesn't make right what we did.
You can take history as it happened and learn something out of it, or you ignore it and continue to use half assed excuses and feel good about it. It's your choice, you're free man.
I know my choice...
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
But most of black americans are, for a good reason. Mere 4 decades ago racial segregation was common occurrence. As long as racism is well and alive in our great country, N word will be offensive here. Many of them experienced it first hand.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/ColoredDrinking.jpg)
You can argue as much as you want, it really comes down to ignorance.
(hopefully word ignorance does not offend you)
that foto reminds me about a great movie : "AMISTAD", with Morgan Freeman and Anthony Hopkins
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Originally posted by ghi
that foto reminds me about a great movie : "AMISTAD", with Morgan Freeman and Anthony Hopkins
You want to know which town fed and housed the men from Amistad after they won their court date and were waiting for people to raise enough funds for their return home? :)
(Woulda been nice for Hollywood to mention that, but oh well, it's Hollywood)
One's buried in the same cemetary as my friend... Maybe I'll take pictures some time if anyone's interested.
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Originally posted by Vudak and Hubsonfire
Offense can only be taken, not given.
Most ignorant statement I've ever seen on this forum.
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ok - it seems I shouldn't feel to bad about my english since the topic is debatable amongst native english speakers :)
PS
2bighorn, haven't seen you flying in a long time, I sincerely hope you plan to return someday!
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Originally posted by ozrocker
I can't see "Jap" being offensive. In WW2 the term "Nip" was more of a derogatory term than Jap, or so I thought.
Oz
I discussed this with Taki a long time ago. He said they associate "Jap" with "Yellow Monkey". Which is why they find it offensive, which is why it shouldn't really be said.
I did say that i never knew of the association and i am sure most people were not aware of it.
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I'm a Finn. You can use that one. We don't care (at least us American Finns).
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Originally posted by Trip01
But I wouldn't expect you yanks to understand that ;)
Trip
lol Trip, it didn't go unnoticed!
We're talking about a word here, more precisely an adjective. In "Jap plane", it is simply a descriptor, and an abbreviation of the word "Japanese", for the plane that is of Japanese origin. It is not used in a derogatory way.
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vudak,
most black folks are offended by the n word. who you see using it is not the majority. I can relate as to why some japanese are offended by using jap. its probably viewed the same.
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Originally posted by jamusta
vudak,
most black folks are offended by the n word. who you see using it is not the majority. I can relate as to why some japanese are offended by using jap. its probably viewed the same.
Jam, you're my friend, and I don't mean to offend you by this, but the majority doesn't always have the best idea.
Is it better to get offended by a word or shrug it off and not let it bother you? That's all I'm trying to say here.
2Bighorn... If you knew who I am in real life, you might not toss around the "ignorant" comment so much. I'd honestly bet I'm a top 3 contender on this BBS for people who've had the most opportunity to be offended by something... I just don't let it get to me.
I can never just bow out :)
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Yeesh... Sometimes I think the only truly inalienable right that people possess is to idiocy!
Once you are informed that a group of people *MIGHT* find a certain reference to them offensive, why would you continue to use it?
For lengro - feel badly that you might have offended someone unintentionally, and then take care to not do so again. And no, you are not alone in needing to have it pointed out to you - even those of us who speak English natively but have had little exposure to Japanese culture are usually unaware of it's negative connotations until someone takes us aside. For me, it was an Australian player who lives in Japan.
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Originally posted by Ghastly
Once you are informed that a group of people *MIGHT* find a certain reference to them offensive, why would you continue to use it?
I might have to reread this thread, but I thought the only player that suggested continuing using it after finding out it was offensive later corrected himself and decided not to?
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Originally posted by Lengro
I sincerely hope you plan to return someday!
That's given
Originally posted by Vudak
2Bighorn... If you knew who I am in real life, you might not toss around the "ignorant" comment so much.
Why not? Offense can only be taken, or some such nonsense, so I'm off the hook...
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It's hard to see why an american, or any other race would be offended by typing "Jap." In the age of internet, everything gets shortend, using it verbally might be a different story.....
That said, only a Japanese person could decide if that word is offensive to them. If it is, it's hard to argue that it shouldn't be offensive to them. You can say you didn't mean it in an offensive way, and they might tell they understand but do not appreciate being called in that manner. Then again, maybe not.
Guess it is a fine line, and with only brief words, things and meanings that are not intended can be interpreted different ways. Personally, I know there may be an issue with the word "Jap," so therefore I just type the extra 5 letters (takes less than 5 seconds) to avoid the whole situation to begin with. Same time, I would call the British "Brits," only because there doesn't seem (to my knowledge) to be much controversy around it.
Not everything in life follows what seems to be logically arguments. British to "Brit", and Japanese to "Jap" seem to not always translate in the same way. I guess it can be maddening for it's lack of logic, especially with PC nuts on the loose. When I was in my fraternity days, people would say stuff like "so you joined a frat." to which we would generally reply, "do you call your country a c**t." A bit crude I know, just thought I'd throw that in there.
In short, to non-Japanese people it may seem like a no brainer, but we are dealing with another culture. Personally, I would rather spend 3 seconds and type 5 extra letters, just to make an issue a non-issue....though as an American I would not find the word offensive.
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SKJohn, Kermit de Frog, toonces and ozrocker all argued for why it should be OK or at least not a problem - and toonces is the only one who I saw chime in and say (paraphrased)
"Maybe it doesn't matter how I feel about it, maybe it's what they feel that matters".
Which is the point.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
That's given
Why not? Offense can only be taken, or some such nonsense, so I'm off the hook...
:rofl
You'll always be off the hook for "offense" in my book - but I'll hold ya to irony ;)
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People don't choose to be offended or not. It is an emotional reaction and we humans almost never have control over that. Why would a certain word be offensive and another not? Well, has to do with the culture you absorbed as you grew up.
Just be polite and don't use terms that others are offended by, and if you do, don't be sactimonious and surprised when they call you on it.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Just be polite and don't use terms that others are offended by.
agreed.
and if you do
Just established we shouldn't, so I guess you are talking about when we are unaware of the offensive meaning - then:
don't be sactimonious and surprised when they call you on it.
I would think surprised would be a pretty normal reaction since we didnt knew - and we should also be thankfull for being called upon it.
sanctimonious? - but then we in the first place should know of the offensive meaning - and we allready have established we shouldnt offend?
Should I just stick to my own language and dont try to be smart in another language? :)
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They call me sweetheart bag, foreigner, "pass the Dutchie to the .....", duckie, cloggie, ......
They even fediddleed up my avatar!
:cry :cry :cry
pls make um stop Skuzzy :t
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I'm offended by "Insensitive Jerk"......but my wife refuses to stop calling me that.
:D
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm a Finn. You can use that one. We don't care (at least us American Finns).
Neither do I, nor any of us Finns here in AH. :) (Well, I haven't heard of anyone being insulted by being called a Finn!)
Too bad none of the Japanese AH'ers actively visit the BB anymore (where's Mitsu?), maybe they could give some insight to the problem at hand.
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Originally posted by lengro
ok - it seems I shouldn't feel to bad about my english since the topic is debatable amongst native english speakers :)
It is an unfortunate truism that most non-native speakers on these boards have a more comprehensive grasp of the language than the natives. :aok
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Originally posted by Dutchie
They call me sweetheart bag, foreigner, "pass the Dutchie to the .....", duckie, cloggie, ......
Thats not the only thing we call you :D
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legro,
I wasn't addressing the people who didn't know and who change their vocabulary when so informed. I was refering to the people who know it is offensive, but use it anyway and then get outraged about "PC crap" when called on something they know darn well isn't about "PC crap".
People, like you, who didn't know the context can't be blamed for using it.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Before, during and after the WWII, Japanese were considered lesser race, subhumans, etc and abbreviated word was widely used in that context including in all the gov war propaganda.
Before, during, and after WWII the Japanese have been quite racist themselves. They considered the other asian nations to be lesser racers, subhumans, etc, and the same extended to the european race. And much of this still exists today.
Internment camps were far better treatment than that the japs gave those aussies and brits got when singapore fell.
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if its offensive... dont use it. Period
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Originally posted by Stratocaster
if its offensive... dont use it. Period
Where do you draw the line on PCness?
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When a word or phrase offends a single person. I stop using it in the general area of that person. If it is dubbed offensive by a culture... well I apply the same rule. I am sure the same could be argued that certain terms that would appear to be PC at one point stand for something entirely different many years later. The word "Jap" was used in anger towards Japan during the war. It may sound like just a shortening of "Japan." Used today, it is still filled with malice. Just like words like "Negro" and so on.
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Personally I will use whatever word I wish to use to describe anyone I wish. I could care less who gets offended. (By the same token, I am willing to take whatever repercussions come my way for doing so.)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Before, during, and after WWII the Japanese have been quite racist themselves. They considered the other asian nations to be lesser racers, subhumans, etc, and the same extended to the european race. And much of this still exists today.
Internment camps were far better treatment than that the japs gave those aussies and brits got when singapore fell.
Spot on - Also Nanking and the Phillipines. The Japs refuse to this day to admit to guilt for their atrocities, I have no respect for them.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Spot on - Also Nanking and the Phillipines. The Japs refuse to this day to admit to guilt for their atrocities, I have no respect for them.
Some yes, some no. Like all people they vary a lot in their opinions.
You may recall a Japanese guy who flew AH by the handle of Flyingdutchman. Well, he explicitly said Japan was guilty of those things and needed to do more to redress and address its actions.
You can be an ******* if you like and claim it is just anti-Political Correctness, but you are wrong, you're just an ******* making excuses for being an *******.
I have seen an awful lot of behavior that would never had passed muster in days way, way before any Political Correctness crap came about simply on a basis of being polite and civilized, justified as a rebelion against Political Correctness.
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Wait wait wait... so referring to an A6/Ki/Niki in AHII as a Jap Plane might be offensive to Japanese people, when the object of reference is not only an inanimate object, but a pixelated inanimate object?
Ye gods, if the Japanese are so insulted by that, why don't they try being a Texan for a couple days? Do you know how many times I've had to listen to that lame horrible joke from Full Metal Jacket?
Or asked where I park my horse on the way to work?
Or called a Yankee, by some ignorant European?
At least nobody is telling the Japanese that only steers and queers come from where they live.
Sorry to bust the PC love bubble, but grow some balls. If they had enough of 'em to take a shot at us 60 years ago then there's got to be something left to defend against a shortened version of their name.
Ooh ahh, he called me a Jap, its so insulting not being referred to by all three syllables of my race/country of origin.
In all seriousness it just doesn't make sense to me how 'Jap' can be insulting. I know Japanese Americans. At least, the two I know, aren't insulted when I rarely call them Japs. I just called up my buddy Lee, and he couldn't understand why they'd be insulted by it. So seriously... what gives?
If it were partnered with an insult, ie: "That stupid little Jap son of a ...", well then I could understand taking offense. And the person referring to someone in that manner probably deserves to be staked over an anthill...
But... "Jap plane 6 O'Clock high, break break!"
How is there any insult there? I'm at a loss over here. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. Or maybe I'm applying the wrong logic.
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not worth it.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
After the Dust Bowl disaster in '30s, some half a million of homeless Americans from Great Plains came to California. Mainly farmers who lost everything, most of them settled in Central Valley and were referred to as "Okies". As such (here at least), Okie is considered slur word because many still remember or were told by parents about those events and they won't take that word lightly.
Huh... and here I just thought Okie was simply a way of referring to Football fans from Oklahoma University... weird...'cause I remember during a few UT-OU games they called 'em Okies because Oklahoma University Fans is quite annoying to say.
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I find getting shot at very offensive. I'm offended personally any time I see a Spit XVI 200 off my six.
WTF do people think they have a right to not be offended?
Of course, it's not "polite" to offend people, but hey...
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I can't possibly wade through all the nonsense posts all over again.
1. The dictionary is your guide to word usage. Look up the word and read the definition. It has nothing to do with being PC.
2. The abbreviation JP is what JP's use.
3. I've never heard a derogatory word spoken by any Japanese player on the channel they use in all the time I've played the game.
4. Many of you have posted on the exact same topic before, claiming ignorance that it's a racial slur. After being informed it was then, you now claim again that you didn't know. You are being dishonest. You are only looking for an opportunity to be provocative and argue.
5. Mr No Name: You are dishonest or ignorant. Which is it?
Here is the looooong list of war apologies. So many that they can hardly be counted. List> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan)
Enough of this nonsense.
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Edit - you know what, maybe it's just best to let this all die down.
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Originally posted by Karnak
You may recall a Japanese guy who flew AH by the handle of Flyingdutchman. Well, he explicitly said Japan was guilty of those things and needed to do more to redress and address its actions.
FD flies still, I fly with him in FSO - he screams a lot on vox :) . I'll ask if he thinks the term jap is offensive, and if he does I'll stop using it.
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I'll save you the trouble. He does. He even posted about it years ago, asking the community to refrain from doing it. It fell on deaf ears and turned into another thread full of people still fighting the war. It may have even been locked after the community got finished with him.
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Originally posted by Rolex
1. The dictionary is your guide to word usage. Look up the word and read the definition.
Pretty simple, yet the thread rolls on :huh
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Originally posted by Rolex
5. Mr No Name: You are dishonest or ignorant. Which is it?
I believe in this case, you are being ignorant in a bold way. All of those apologies were for Japans war of aggression in general and not the horrific specific crimes, nor even a mention much less an admission of the rapes, torture, slavery on a GRAND scale. Not even one mention of using Chinese women as "Comfort Women" until the 2000's (After nearly all of them were dead) Their emperor should have never lived to be 88 years old after so many horrible crimes were inflicted in his name and at his behest.
Why isn't it taught in their schools like the holocaust is in Germany? Japan has been a great ally to the US since the war but has never truly owned up to its' crimes. Politicians let them slide for some unknown reason.
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Originally posted by Hoffman
If it were partnered with an insult, ie: "That stupid little Jap son of a ...", well then I could understand taking offense. And the person referring to someone in that manner probably deserves to be staked over an anthill...
But... "Jap plane 6 O'Clock high, break break!"
How is there any insult there? I'm at a loss over here. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. Or maybe I'm applying the wrong logic. [/B]
I'm inclined to agree with you, it is merely an abbreviation, but Rolex makes a firm point. It's the same thing we Australians have with Aboriginals. Shortening the word 'Aboriginal' to 'Abo' is considered offensive. It is considered to be in league with any other racial slurs that are intentionally designed to belittle the race.
People just need to learn to moderate their language to suit their current situation, not only in the game but in life in general.
In order to best achieve effective communication with others you must modify your approach to most appropriately suit the situation.
In this situation (Aces High BBS or in-game), where you are surrounded by hundreds of people you don't know, always assume that there will be people who are easily offended and modify your speech or text to suit this.
If you're on squad channel, go nuts (provided your squadies feel the same way as you do), otherwise.... just use a bit of 'situational awareness'.
When it comes down to it, it is no easier to say "Jap Plane" then it is to just call its ID tag, so a wise man would stick to calling ID tags on range channel.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
No, but Limey can be offensive to some.
No call them Pommys that should do it. :rofl
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I didn't even read all 4 pages of this, because they all probably say the same thing in different ways, so what follows may already have been written.
Every WORD mentioned are just that....WORDS....a combination of letters making a sound. The ONLY way that WORDS become offensive is if one places such a high value in the person saying them, they become offensive.
Don't place such high value in someone who doesnt know you personally and those words will never be offensive.
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I know I'm going to get really flamed for this, but...
It seems really strange, even asinine to see a huge thread in THIS community's forum discussing the rights and wrongs of using a single word that might or might not be offensive to a nationality that has at best a very minor presence here (though I understand the associated PC factor that gets everyone so righteous). Especially when, at the same time, a large number of posters here, and certainly players in the game, think nothing of throwing insults and incriminations back and forth with the sole purpose of irritating and offending others, albeit without the useful assistance of a 'trigger' ethnic or racial slur.
Yes, there is a bit of difference in the circumstances and historical inference involved between these two, but really, talk about a paradox wrapped inside an enigma.
P.S. And most of you, inspite of some surprisingly good intentions and coming fairly close, really missed the important and driving elements of this issue. I am once again fascinated by something truly disturbing about people in general. Most really don't know, understand or care about the purpose and mechanics of communication, or cultural bias that can disrupt it.
'The Americans and British, two peoples separated by a common language.' :huh (a paraphrase) LOL
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Originally posted by Xasthur
In order to best achieve effective communication with others you must modify your approach to most appropriately suit the situation.
I missed this small glimmer of light in my first run through the posts. Though a minor spark at best, it's on the right path to the fire.
Can't say the same for the rest of this post, but baby steps. Baby steps.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Calm down redrum. This has nothing to do with being "PC". I detest that term as well. It has everything to do with being respectful and mindful of being part of an international community.
quite interesting i work for a car parts company . we import japanese parts from japan . The company we import from is call "jap car parts" . Funny they are a japanese company owned by a japanese busness man and partly sponsored by Honda/subaru/toyota.
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Originally posted by lyric1
No call them Pommys that should do it. :rofl
and it's pommy B*****DS
LOL
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Before, during, and after WWII the Japanese have been quite racist themselves. They considered the other asian nations to be lesser racers, subhumans, etc, and the same extended to the european race. And much of this still exists today.
Internment camps were far better treatment than that the japs gave those aussies and brits got when singapore fell.
I was trying so hard to stay out of this thread when I read your reply. Especially that last sentence. I think you may need a history lesson....
Internment camps held AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese heritage in camps in the United States. They were NOT prisoners of war.
Soon after the beginning of World War II, Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066. This order commenced the round-up of 120,000 Americans of Japanese heritage to one of 10 internment camps—officially called "relocation centers"—in California, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and Arkansas.
Roosevelt's executive order was fueled by anti-Japanese sentiment among farmers who competed against Japanese labor, politicians who sided with anti-Japanese constituencies, and the general public, whose frenzy was heightened by the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor. More than 2/3 of the Japanese who were interned in the spring of 1942 were citizens of the United States.
With that said, you are correct on prisoners of war being mistreated. But to compare that to internment camps is plain wrong. As the idea of internment camps was wrong in the first place.
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Originally posted by Laciner
Perhaps you could say IJN, or IJA, rather than Jap.
Speaking as a British person, "Brit" is incredibly mild, milder than "Yank" or "Ocker", considerably milder than "Kraut". It's odd that my ancestors had so many words for the Jerries, but the sausage-eaters just had "Tommy" or "Englander schweinhund" in return. "Brit" sounds like the kind of thing an American might say if he wanted to give the impression that he was friends with a British person.
Just for the record, I take no offence when a britt calls me Yanks.
(Yanks) Don
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Originally posted by NHawk
With that said, you are correct on prisoners of war being mistreated. But to compare that to internment camps is plain wrong. As the idea of internment camps was wrong in the first place.
The whole idea that using a term people object to can be justified on the basis of events during WW2 which had absolutely nothing to do with them is completely ridiculous.
Apparently there is at least one Japanese AH player who genuinely finds the term offensive. That is the end of the issue for me: I will not use that term and nor should anyone who knows this.
Trip
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From Dec 7 1941 to the end of the war the 3 letter J word was used as a swear word, an epithet. I still have uncles alive today who use it, and who still hate the Japanese people as much as they did back then. The way they use it, the look in their eyes, the way they spit it out of their mouth. If you were Japanese and heard them you would be offended. Heck it offends me.
What the Japanese did at Pearl and other places was wrong. Yet they felt it was necessary for them to grow and survive. What we did to them to end the war was also wrong, yet also necessary. We can not turn back history and prevent this war.
What we can do is work on losing the hate. To me, the 3 letter J word is just another way of keeping the hate alive. My uncles, and anyone else who actually fought against them in WWII have IMO earned the right to use it.
No one has else earned that right.
As for the difference between Brit and the J word. Well the Bloody Brits didn't come over and blow the crap out of NY harbor recently have they? "Brits" wasn't used as an epithet for 5 years of a terrible bloody war. As a result it has a very different emotional feel to it for those who hear it.
What we do here is simulate WWII combat, and thats fine. It honors all those who fought and died on both sides. What we do NOT need to do here is to simulate the hate. Its long long past time to let that die. As a result we all should be just a bit more careful about causing offense. If that makes me a tree hugger and a bleeding heart Liberal, well fine, conservative as I am, I can live with that.
If I have a dream, its that someday ALL wars will be played out here, virtually, so that no one never needs to experience wars hell firsthand ever again.
Its perhaps not a realistic dream, but growing up with my uncles first hand accounts of war, seeing the physical damage it inflicted. And growing up in the shadow of the cold war. I can think of no better future for mankind, than to find a way to put the violence behind us.
As posted above, IJA/IJN JP, or others will convey the meaning just as well without the attached emotional baggage. It was NOT my intention to start this war again. So please let it end here, all of you.
It was my "intention" to take one good, solid, AH player who has english as his second language. And raise his awareness about this word just a little bit.
Its not about being PC, its about having just a little bit of respect and courtesy for everyone you meet. It costs you nothing, yet can gain you so very very much.
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Originally posted by Karnak
You can be an ******* if you like and claim it is just anti-Political Correctness, but you are wrong, you're just an ******* making excuses for being an *******.
Couldn't agree more, Karnak, although I think perhaps he won't get it if you don't spell it out.
- oldman
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Its not about being PC, its about having just a little bit of respect and courtesy for everyone you meet. It costs you nothing, yet can gain you so very very much.
Hear hear.
True words.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
Just for the record, I take no offence when a britt calls me Yanks.
I find it offensive when foreigners refer to American's as Yankees. But I'm from ther South and we have a different meaning for "Yankee" here.
On topic: I'm an anti-PC person. I think it's completely ridiculous at times. This one I can see it. You or a close loved one live through something liek that, you have a right to be offended.
Easy solution that some mentioned earlier. Call out A6M, or KI on you. You defeat this problem, and it gives them a better idea of what they need to do... you handle the A6M a little different than the KIs.
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I am not offended by the term's "spittydweeb", "Vulcher", or "Marty" :D
Just do as Tiger said, see a zeke call out zeke or zero or A6M. See a Ki84 (at 17K cherry picking) call out Ki or 84, or skilless cherry picking dweeb.
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The only one of these so call "slurs" I can even agree as being offensive is the "N" word.
And that is because by its very definition as used to be found in the dictionary is offensive.
The definition is changed now from every dictionary I look in.
but when I was a kid I looked it up and it was then defined as . "A dirty,filthy disgusting person"
Of course it originates from the word "negro" which in Spanish means "black"
the only other one I would be able to agree with is calling anyone who is German a Nazi
For obvious reasons
The others. Well get over it. The world isn't going to fall apart because someone called you a name.or referred to an abbreviated word.
We've become ENTIRELY overthenthitive about what "offends" us.
Im a mostly white and white looking guy with a Spanish last name.(Mendez)
I grew up in an area that was predominantly black and Hispanic.
Trust me. I didn't go over well with any of these groups and got it from all sides.
The blacks and Hispanics because I was obviously white. And the whites because of my Spanish last name.
I've been called every name in the book from Spic and switchblade to honky,White cracker.. you name it . I've been called it.
And I've had to deal with the injustices that came with it. From being ganged up on and beaten bloody for no other reason then being white. Or because of my last name. To being denied work because as the interviewer said "The owner doesn't like Puerto Ricans" Forget the fact I'm not even Puerto Rican. It was the Spanish last name
To as a teen having girls not go out with me. Or break up with me because their parents or brothers didn't want them going out with a spic.
So lets just say when it comes to slurs and discrimination I know what the hell Im talking about. Because unlike most of you . I've lived it.
I find it offensive that some of you find it offensive because they were referred to. or somebody used an abbreviated or slang word (the N word not withstanding)
So what. Get over it. there are more important things in the world to worry about.
The sun will still rise on the morrow I promise.
If people put in 1/1,000 as much energy into being offended at things worth being offended over as they do about words. The world would be a much better and different place.
The ONLY reason any of these words are offensive is because we give them the power to be by being offended.
Cease being offended or feeling disrespected over then and you take away ALL their power.
Now I am sure that in the majority of cases when someone refers to a "Jap" plane they are simply abbreviating the word Japaneese.
Because, well lets face it. Jap is alot easier to type then Japanese. Particularly in game.
And at the very most they do not mean it in a derogatory way anyway.
And yanno what.
If you happen to be Japanese and someone calls you a Jap
Or British and someone calls you a Brit. Or American and someone calls you a Yank. Or are black and someone calls you a "negro" (Remember, Spanish translation and not to be mistaken for the other N word)
Or like me. Part Spanish and someone calls you a spic
Get over it. Because. Well, you are!
Shrug your shoulders and say "So what."
By doing that you take away all the power of the word to be offensive.
Trust me. its a hell of alot better then crying like a child because (insert whiney tone here) "They called me a name."
Call me any damn racial or ethnic thing you like. Odds are much better then average all you will get a "so?"
Doesn't offend me.
More important things to legitimately be offended over.
And someone being called a racial name isn't legitimate.
9/11 was a legitimate reason to be offended.
Kick me in he groin and I'll be offended.
Starving children is a legitimate reason.
But name calling?
Bah.
I've moved beyond such nonsense. And as a result I am stronger and have plenty enough self esteem to not be offended or even bothered by such silliness.
If your bothered then you really need to look at yourself and your own weaknesses
Most cases here nobody is intentionally trying to offend anyone. And when they are its usually pretty obvious by the words that are accompanying it.
So unless it is obvious. Don't sweat it..
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Now I am sure that in the majority of cases when someone refers to a "Jap" plane they are simply abbreviating the word Japaneese.
Because, well lets face it. Jap is alot easier to type then Japanese. Particularly in game.
And at the very most they do not mean it in a derogatory way anyway.
Now I am sure that in the majority of cases when someone refers to a "DICK" they are simply abbreviating the word DREDIOCK.
Because, well lets face it, DICK is a lot easier to type than DREDIOCK. Particularly in game.
And at the very most they do not mean it in a derogatory way anyway.
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Touche bighorn :).
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I absolutely cannot believe some of the ridiculous statements being made by some here. The lengths that one would go to defend why a word is not offensive is ridiculous.
If you use the term and you aren't associated with that people group you use the term about then you have no vote on whether that term is offensive or not.
In the case of "Jap", it is offensive to Japanese-Americans. There's no question about that. There's a history of the usage of the term in a derogatory manner and that legacy remains for Japanese-Americans.
From the Japanese American Veterans Association:
http://www.javadc.org/Press%20Release-8-13-04%20Tanamachi,%20Sandra-.doc
From the Japanese American Citizens League (one of the oldest civil rights orgs in the USA):
http://www.jacl.org/antihate/WordsFlyer.pdf
From the South Florida Sun-Sentinel:
http://www.modelminority.com/printout292.html
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Nice post, Dred, unfortunately you're now an ignorant ******* for believing in the merits of tough skin.
(Something tells me you aren't going to sweat it ;) )
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Now I am sure that in the majority of cases when someone refers to a "DICK" they are simply abbreviating the word DREDIOCK.
Because, well lets face it, DICK is a lot easier to type than DREDIOCK. Particularly in game.
And at the very most they do not mean it in a derogatory way anyway.
Congratulations. You're now trying to be offensive and insulting, while those you attack aren't. You have lost the high ground.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
You're now trying to be offensive and insulting, while those you attack aren't.
Exactly. That's the whole point.
Just because some words don't offend us, doesn't mean it won't offend others.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Not quite. Because of past usage (context) it is offensive word no matter in what context it is used today. It may take few generations more before it is acceptable again.
To understand that better you'd have to go back to 19th century when Asian people (mainly Chinese and Japanese) were brought in US as cheap labor to build railroads and work on the farms.
In the West white americans were blaming them for their economic misery and anti-asian movements started (using inferior race card) and from then on the things got worse.
War started in Europe, due to German-Japanese alignment, curfew was imposed on all Japanese-Americans, they were banned from universities (so they couldn't learn German and spy for them) and after Pearl Harbor they ended in internment camps.
The quote by famous war correspondent Ernie Pyle describes American sentiment very accurately:
"In Europe, we felt that our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people, but out here, I soon gathered that the Japanese were looked upon as something subhuman and repulsive; the way some people feel about cockroaches and mice."
I think that half of a history lesson is a one sided point of view. You quoted what EP wrote however you never mention the fact that the Japanese military looked on captured soldiers and flyers as subhuman because they never should have allowed themselves to be taken alive. Many U.S. downed flyers were killed out of hand. The only thing they didn't know was when they would die. Many flyers were used for bayonet practice. There are always two sides to a story. To tell one side of it is to attempt to persuade someone to your point of view despite facts. However, this is not the place to discuss it.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I think that half of a history lesson is a one sided point of view. You quoted what EP wrote however you never mention the fact that the Japanese military looked on captured soldiers and flyers as subhuman because they never should have allowed themselves to be taken alive. Many U.S. downed flyers were killed out of hand. The only thing they didn't know was when they would die. Many flyers were used for bayonet practice. There are always two sides to a story. To tell one side of it is to attempt to persuade someone to your point of view despite facts. However, this is not the place to discuss it.
Ahhh why is it allways so in this BBS that one starts implying some things and then says its not the right place to discuss. Such a silly remark it makes my hair curl all the time.
History allways has different points of views ofcourse. But does your POV make it right to use degrading remarks on a whole group of peoples?
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<--- brit.
<--- tommy.
<--- pommy bastard.
<--- bad teeth
<--- the Queen's beeotch.
<--- tard, dweeb, freak, fool, muppet, moron, idiot, weirdo, cherry picker, vulcher, ram tard, monkey boy, internet tough guy, red meat eater, alcoholic, pot head, poor man, manual labourer, procrastinator, arrogant, offensive, ignorant, smelly, ugly, stupid, skinny, foul tempered, diseased, useless, lazy, waster, spoilt, unmotivated, unkempt, offensive, defensive, sick in the head, perverted, banana, loser, childish, old man, guilty, guilty, guilty.
please refrain from using any other insults on me, or i will become offended.
S!
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Originally posted by JensK
Ahhh why is it allways so in this BBS that one starts implying some things and then says its not the right place to discuss. Such a silly remark it makes my hair curl all the time.
History allways has different points of views ofcourse. But does your POV make it right to use degrading remarks on a whole group of peoples?
Funny, I don't remember projecting a POV making anything right about using degrading remarks. I said using part of history to explain something is merely a way of trying to persuade your own POV. Try telling the whole story. However, when you do it takes us on a completely different tangent which really is what is not needed here. It was a poor example and was challenged. Nothing more.
If you'd like to discuss all of the ramifications of how and why people come to say what they do then let's discuss it in the O'Club. For instance, if you think a jew from a concentration camp is not going to call a nazi a nazi then you are sadly mistaken. However, within the context of this thread, I find it refreshing to hear 99 of the people flying calling out an enemy N1K a N1K and not a "jap" plane. If some American calls an Englishman a Brit it might be what they learned and was in not meant in a derogatory way. Until someone tells them it seems derogatory what would you expect them to say?
For the record, my call sign is Renegade. When I began flying vox was not around. It immediately got shortened by those around me to Ren. Is that my call sign? No. Unless I began telling everyone it was derogatory to me personally how would you ever know it might be? Where's stympy? I get asked that all the time. When was the last time a Renegade ever ran around with a stympy? :) So if someone from the USA happens to type brit iso of british or english it might be an attempt to shorten up the typing iso trying to be derogatory. I normally shorten up any word I type or speed. When I see someone up like BTCobra I might say Hi BT. I have lots of respect for the man and mean nothing by typing BT just trying to get the Hi out quicker. Is it politically correct? Ask him since its his call sign. Is Ren politically correct..if you ask me it is.
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Abrreviating a word for online use is fine by me.
I find other words be to offensive and I will not use them.
The word Jap spoken in a friendly way is NOT offensive. If you use it in a derogatory way, then well, it's offensive. That word is an abbreviation.
If I say "ch#nk" instead of chinese, well, I'm being offensive. Sure it's easier to say, but that word ONLY means something derogatory to chinese.
Brit means British.
Others:
Aussie
Czech
Ruskie
Arab
Pole
etc...
In real life, when I speak, I normally do not use the word "Jap".
When I type, whether in emails, AH, or even with pen/paper, I will use "Jap" if the situation arises. Now if this is something in a formal nature, I will not use "Jap" because abbreviating any word is best avoided. I consider it shorthand and I've asked a friend if he found "Jap" offensive in an email. He did not.
If some people that HATE the Japanese use the term "Jap" towards Japs, I'm sure you can see/hear the way they say it. I will continue to use the word when writing/typing in shorthand.
I
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My canadian financ'ee, (spelt right) calls me a "g-d american"......I see no problem with that, I am. I be what I be. >S<:D
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She said at least I ain't a 'porkacheeser".
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I think that half of a history lesson is a one sided point of view. You quoted what EP wrote however you never mention the fact that the Japanese military looked on captured soldiers and flyers as subhuman because they never should have allowed themselves to be taken alive. Many U.S. downed flyers were killed out of hand. The only thing they didn't know was when they would die. Many flyers were used for bayonet practice. There are always two sides to a story. To tell one side of it is to attempt to persuade someone to your point of view despite facts. However, this is not the place to discuss it.
The fact is that 'Jap' as an ethnic slur, offends the Japanese Americans more than anybody else. Those who lived here at that time, for the most part, had nothing to do with how Japanese military treated POWs, and many were citizens.
The term Jap is used in English as an abbreviation of the word "Japanese." Today it is usually used as an ethnic slur, though English speaking countries differ in the degree they consider the term offensive. Most people of Japanese descent in these countries consider it offensive.
In Japanese dictionaries, the term Jap is only defined as a disparaging term used against the Japanese people; this is also the case in many English language dictionaries.
In the United States and Canada, the term is now considered derogatory; Webster's Dictionary notes it is "usually disparaging."
In the United Kingdom it is considered derogatory, and the Oxford dictionary defines it as offensive.
What more than above you need to know?
Usually people take care what words they use and when.
Youngsters talk differently to their parents than they do to the peers.
Friends talk to the friends differently then they do to strangers.
Why do you think it is so? Because the PC police says so? Or is it about the manners, respect, common sense, social boundaries etc.
Would you discuss merits of the word and its usage when somebody calls somebody's mom a w****, telling him he's hypersensitive or you'd just allow him to be offended?
Would you allow somebody to go to great lengths how the word is just a descriptor of certain profession and those women work hard for living, therefore is not really a bad word? And if it's not a bad word why that person is offended especially if his mom doesn't work in that profession at all?
The fact is that "Jap" will offend some people. If you're unsure of their presence, don't use it. Simple as that.
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Thinking about the title of this thread: You know, a thread about proper punctuation would probably be a good thing.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Abrreviating a word for online use is fine by me.
I find other words be to offensive and I will not use them.
The word Jap spoken in a friendly way is NOT offensive. If you use it in a derogatory way, then well, it's offensive. That word is an abbreviation.
From that logic, I can go around to every black man I see and call him a n*gger, because after all, I really don't mean it in any derogatory way. I now understand your point my little gringo, cracker friend.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I now understand your point my little gringo, cracker friend.
See but that just makes me laugh :)
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I get my feelings hurt when people call me a Luft-Weenie :cry
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Why didn't you just type the quoted dictionary text and instead your one sided history lesson?
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Why didn't you just type the quoted dictionary text and instead your one sided history lesson?
Why don't you take time and read whole thread and see how conversation went?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
From that logic, I can go around to every black man I see and call him a n*gger, because after all, I really don't mean it in any derogatory way. I now understand your point my little gringo, cracker friend.
ack-ack
Exactly.
Drop the 'er and put an 'a after that N word. It's shortened and used commonly in a non deragatory way.
AKAK, the next two words do not follow my point on shortening up words:
Gringo can be used in a friendly way and a non-friendly way.
Same with cracker although that word may not be used casually, but maybe if used in a joking way.
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What is so hard about this?
Asking someone to say "hearing impaired" instead of "deaf" is PC.
Jap–adjective, noun Slang: Disparaging and Offensive. Japanese.
[Origin: 1885–90; shortened form]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Pointing out that a slang has a history of being derogatory/bigoted to a group of people is not PC.
Just because it has no special significance in your culture, and your parents didn't teach you it was a "bad word" when you were a little kid does not mean it is some BS PC that people just made up on the spot to protect the overly sensitive.
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Actually I did. I was also not the only one to remark the dictionary provides what was required. The one sided history lesson was uncalled for.
Personally I don't use racial slurs. If someone is a butthead then thats what I call them regardless of race, color or creed. I am also not responsible for Japanese cannibalism and nazi atrocities during the war, the atom bomb being dropped on Japan or Black people being brought to America as slaves so don't ever try to stick that one on me. I also don't live in the past nor do I owe anyone a living.
That being said, all that is required is to treat people how you'd like them to treat you. Life is your individual interaction with others so if you can't treat people that way don't expect them to treat you any different.
Sorry for edit for typos...
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It is kind of interesting that this 3-letter abreviation rises so much attention especially because "at least one japanese player is known to take offence" from it, but hardly no-one seems to notice or care when people or planes get called nazis or commies :confused:
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BlauK, I think we're speaking for all be it Japanese, German, Russian, anyone. Russian is a lil harder though since now some folks come from individual countries iso the USSR now. It's probably better now to say Rumanian, or Lithuanian or perhaps Estnian, etc.
Not sure about yer lingo ref planes. I normally call an LA7 a Laffie. :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
What is so hard about this?
Asking someone to say "hearing impaired" instead of "deaf" is PC.
Pointing out that a slang has a history of being derogatory/bigoted to a group of people is not PC.
Just because it has no special significance in your culture, and your parents didn't teach you it was a "bad word" when you were a little kid does not mean it is some BS PC that people just made up on the spot to protect the overly sensitive.
Perfectly stated Murdr.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
From that logic, I can go around to every black man I see and call him a n*gger, because after all, I really don't mean it in any derogatory way. I now understand your point my little gringo, cracker friend.
ack-ack
You have no business being critical of anyone regarding this topic.
You are a foul racist.
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I cant remeber the exact story but, its about a Japenese pilot who shot down an american during WWII.
The Japenese pilot ends up meeting the son of the man he shot down (I think it was an intense fight IIRC) and anyway the son expected to feel anger and hatred towards the IJN pilot, but after talking about the all that had happened and seeing that the IJN pilot was like his father just a man doing his part for his country, they ended up becomming good friends, i beleive that the IJN pilot even stayed at the sons house over christmas(again IIRC).
My point is that i am sure the son would used the term "Jap" on many occasions during his life, but I doubt that he would have used it (at least not in the company of the pilot) once he got to know the man who shot down his father....
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
The one sided history lesson was uncalled for.
It wasn't one sided but in chronological order. We treated people of Asian origin badly before WWII. "Yellow Peril" anyone?
Only because Japanese Military committed athrocities later on does not justify our actions before and at the beginning of WWII, especially when you consider that most Japanese-Americans were citizens and had not much in common with Japanese Military, yet the term "Jap" (in derogatory way) was coined right then and there (US). It wasn't limited to Japanese from Japan. Similarly, our attitude towards Chinese immigrants was no better, yet they were our allies in WWII.
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Originally posted by lengro
Yesterday, ghosth kindly pointed out too me, that it is offensive to refer to a 'japanese plane' - when I only type the first 3 letters of 'japanese'.
It came as a big surprise for me - and made me wonder if us non-native english speakers often sounds ignorant or offensive on text-radio or vox without knowing it?
I guess its also the reason that I use too many smiley's when I write - my way of saying "hey, if I offended you it was not my intend"
My point is - I appreciate people tells me if I sound offensive - (because I am a nice guy - really :)) - instead of silence.
Thank you, ghosth!
Now, carry on
screw em,
they started the bloody war didnt they.
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I have been to over 60 different countries and you would be surprised at what is offensive in some of them. This is not too hard to figure out though.
If there is ever any doubt in my mind that someone might find something offensive then I don't say it. Quick typing in the buffer is an excuse not a reason. It would be just as easy to call out the low zeke or ki.
It is not that hard to show a little consideration unless you just don't care. In that case I'm wasting my breath.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
You have no business being critical of anyone regarding this topic.
You are a foul racist.
But I didn't mean it in a derogatory way, so how could it be offensive?
Oh and gringo is not a racist or ethnic slur, as Americans are not a race or ethnicity.
But thanks for proving my point anyway.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Oh and gringo is not a racist or ethnic slur, as Americans are not a race or ethnicity.
ack-ack
Uh, yes it is...............
Gringo \Grin"go\, n. [Amer. Sp., fr. Sp. gringo gibberish; cf.
griego Greek, F. grigou wretch.]
Among Spanish Americans, a foreigner, especially an American
or sometimes an Englishman; -- often used disparagingly or as
a term of reproach.
[Webster 1913 Suppl.]
Link (http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/gringo)
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what about gay?
is it ok to use this term as a light hearted insult?
i think it is, but maybe a homosexual would disagree.
in that sense, it doesnt matter that non-japanese people think jap is ok, if the japanese think its rude then it is.
but really, words are just words. meh, the topic has been raped....
oops, sorry, i didnt mean to offend any rapists...
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Originally posted by FBBone
Uh, yes it is...............
Gringo \Grin"go\, n. [Amer. Sp., fr. Sp. gringo gibberish; cf.
griego Greek, F. grigou wretch.]
Among Spanish Americans, a foreigner, especially an American
or sometimes an Englishman; -- often used disparagingly or as
a term of reproach.
[Webster 1913 Suppl.]
Link (http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/gringo)
Please tell me where it indicates "American" is a race or ethnic group? It may be considered an insult to foreigners but in no way is Gringo a racial or ethnic slur.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Please tell me where it indicates "American" is a race or ethnic group?
"American" has just as much claim to being a seperate race or ethnic group as "Hispanic."
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Please show me on a US Census form that has American as a selection for race or ethnic group. Hispanics are an ethnic group, not a race. There is a difference between one's nationality and ones race/ethnic group.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Please tell me where it indicates "American" is a race or ethnic group? It may be considered an insult to foreigners but in no way is Gringo a racial or ethnic slur.
ack-ack
Really? Tell me then, how many Americans of Mexican or Spanish descent do you suppose get called "gringo"? I'd wager not many. In that context, I read "American" and "Englishman" to mean Caucasian.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Please show me on a US Census form that has American as a selection for race or ethnic group. Hispanics are an ethnic group, not a race. There is a difference between one's nationality and ones race/ethnic group.
ack-ack
From Dictionary.com
(The very first entry for "Ethnic")
"1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like."
(Slightly below that, the definition of "Ethnic Group")
"people of the same race or nationality who share a distinctive culture."
I would argue there is certainly a distinctive "American Culture," it just happens to be open for anyone regardless of superficialities, much like "Hispanic," apparently, considering one can be descended from Europeans, Africans, Native Americans, or any combination of those and other groups and still consider themselves "Hispanic."
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I commend those of you who have taken the time to read the dictionary and decided they aren't going to use an offensive racial slur.
Kermit and DREDIOCK and a few others are simply wrong. Your opinions and continued rationalizing do not convince anyone that 2+2=3. Just accept that you are wrong, accept that 2+2=4.
Continuing to insist that 2+2=3 makes people lose respect for you, as I have.
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LOL makes me laugh how so many of you feel so compelled to defend the JAPANESE and criticize you countrymen over something so petty.
the world is going mad, all this PC crap is the scurge of the modern world.
The blacks, gays, bi's, Indians, Mexicans Africans all have someone to defend them,
but who defends the caucasian Anglo-Saxon male like me... no-one, no-one even theough we built most of the modern-world.
It saddens me it really does. :noid
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Originally posted by Rolex
I commend those of you who have taken the time to read the dictionary and decided they aren't going to use an offensive racial slur.
Kermit and DREDIOCK and a few others are simply wrong. Your opinions and continued rationalizing do not convince anyone that 2+2=3. Just accept that you are wrong, accept that 2+2=4.
Continuing to insist that 2+2=3 makes people lose respect for you, as I have.
I don't see why you'd lump Drediock into that.
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Originally posted by Laurie
but who defends the caucasian Anglo-Saxon male like me...
:cry Uhm, lawyers and certain types of care facilities I'd say.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
:cry Uhm, lawyers and certain types of care facilities I'd say.
2bighorn, Rolex, et al...
Would you say you strive for equality?
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
In real life, when I speak, I normally do not use the word "Jap".
When I type, whether in emails, AH, or even with pen/paper, I will use "Jap" if the situation arises. Now if this is something in a formal nature, I will not use "Jap" because abbreviating any word is best avoided. I consider it shorthand and I've asked a friend if he found "Jap" offensive in an email. He did not.
If some people that HATE the Japanese use the term "Jap" towards Japs, I'm sure you can see/hear the way they say it. I will continue to use the word when writing/typing in shorthand.
I
Use this instead
JPN
This will save you from trouble:aok
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The terms "Jap" and "Kraut" were meant pejoratively, period. There isn't a nice way to say it, anymore than "spick", "daigo", "wop", etc. I won't even spell out the n word.
There is no proper useage for these words.
All that said, I was raised by people who hated the Japanese for the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. They used the term so freely, I did use to think it was a kind expression.
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Originally posted by Ghastly
"Maybe it doesn't matter how I feel about it, maybe it's what they feel that matters".
Which is the point.
Exactly - if they don't wish to addressed by that term, it's fine by me and I'll respect that.
They however, can call me "Roundeye" anytime they like - I find that one quite funny :aok
Shamroc
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Regardless if you're Japanese or not, how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them. Why is that so hard to understand?
ack-ack
Ok how about Nip for Nippon?
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Now I am sure that in the majority of cases when someone refers to a "DICK" they are simply abbreviating the word DREDIOCK.
Because, well lets face it, DICK is a lot easier to type than DREDIOCK. Particularly in game.
And at the very most they do not mean it in a derogatory way anyway.
Oh boo hoo he called me a dick :: Yawn::
Like I told my wife once
Get it straight. Im not a dick I'm a Pr!ck :)
Im just calling it the way it is.
I dont ask that you like it. Nor do I care.
I get called alot of things in the game.
Why just the other night someone called me something I cant say here.
I didnt whine and cry and complain about it then.
And I didnt go running to the AH gods like a child to its mommy
And Im not doing so now.
And yanno what. if the person that said it were in trouble in the game I'd dive right in to help him. Just as I would have before.
No grudges. No offence.
I just dont care.
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Originally posted by dtango
Touche bighorn :).
============================
I absolutely cannot believe some of the ridiculous statements being made by some here. The lengths that one would go to defend why a word is not offensive is ridiculous.
If you use the term and you aren't associated with that people group you use the term about then you have no vote on whether that term is offensive or not.
In the case of "Jap", it is offensive to Japanese-Americans. There's no question about that. There's a history of the usage of the term in a derogatory manner and that legacy remains for Japanese-Americans.
From the Japanese American Veterans Association:
http://www.javadc.org/Press%20Release-8-13-04%20Tanamachi,%20Sandra-.doc
From the Japanese American Citizens League (one of the oldest civil rights orgs in the USA):
http://www.jacl.org/antihate/WordsFlyer.pdf
From the South Florida Sun-Sentinel:
http://www.modelminority.com/printout292.html
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
And exactly what did he touche?
As for the term Jap or any other term.
Its just another excuse for the ever so popular these days to gain a pity party by whining "I'm offended"
You can only be offended if you let yourself be.
If you chose to not let these things be offensive to you. They wont be.
Its all part of this PC crap going around.
We're all too afraid at who we might offend.
Classic example.
You wont see an American Flag in any room on Rutgers College which happens to be the State School of NJ.
And yanno why?
They don't want to "offend" any students that might be there from other countries.
And that was their official reason given.
Now the American Flag is offensive in AMERICA?
If anyone is offended about words, or flags, or names.
Grow a thicker Skin. OR shoot yourself.
Because like it or not. The world is an offensive place.
Just don't expect any sympathy or cowtowing from me.
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1. I strive for common sense.
2. No Japanese players call anyone "round eye" on vox or in text, even on the Japanese language channels used.
3. JP is even easier to type. A 33% gain in efficiency, if that is your true goal.
Entropy has degraded this thread. The answer is still the same and is found in the dictionary for all to read.
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Shame that you read none of my posts drediock
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can I call someone a poop sucker, in a nice way, and then be angry if they don't like it? Because I swear there are a bunch of poop suckers who live next door, I just want to make sure before I say hi.
p.s poop sucker was invented by myself, any use of that word without written consent is forbidden.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
From that logic, I can go around to every black man I see and call him a n*gger, because after all, I really don't mean it in any derogatory way. I now understand your point my little gringo, cracker friend.
ack-ack
No because the "N" word by its very definition has a different and derogatory meaning entirely.
You might however call him a negro which simply means black.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
In the United States and Canada, the term is now considered derogatory; Webster's Dictionary notes it is "usually disparaging."
What more than above you need to know?
Just checked your facts
Direct quote
Merrium Webster Dictionary-
Main Entry: Jap
Function: noun or adjective
Pronunciation: 'jap
: JAPANESE
Main Entry: JAP
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'jap
: JEWISH AMERICAN PRINCESS
Nahh Im not gonna say it. But I will leave the door WIDE open for someone else to LMAO
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Originally posted by BlauK
It is kind of interesting that this 3-letter abreviation rises so much attention especially because "at least one japanese player is known to take offence" from it, but hardly no-one seems to notice or care when people or planes get called nazis or commies :confused:
Havent you figured it out yet?
He who whines the loudest gets the lollipop
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Check your facts. The word, not the annogram.
Merriam-Webster Online - Definition of jap (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jap)
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
No because the "N" word by its very definition has a different and derogatory meaning entirely.
Mr Webster does not seem to back you on that.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Please tell me where it indicates "American" is a race or ethnic group? It may be considered an insult to foreigners but in no way is Gringo a racial or ethnic slur.
ack-ack
It may be used as an insult TO foreigners.
Problem is I've yet to meet any gringos that were offended by its use. LOL
Thus the word has no power.
Now it might fell good for the user to use it. but if the intended offendee isnt offended by it.
Whats the point?
Its lost all meaning
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To lose respect for someone entirely because they do not agree with 1 small topic in life shows something about that person.
I will continue in life to use the word JAP to describe a person who is Japanese or of japanese descent. I consider it shorthand as do others. I do not mean it in a deragatory way and when the majority of society does this, the definition in the dictionary will simply be changed/updated in writing. Times change, as do the meanings of words.
Not all Japs are offended by that term. I had a friend in HS who was half Jap, half Mexican. He would describe himself with the same words. My whole life I never knew that Jap was a deragatory word until maybe after 18 years of age. At that time, I found out how it was used over half a century ago from reading about WWII. I came to the conclusion that it was once used in an offensive manner and in Today's world, it's no longer offensive. People use it as an informal word for "Japanese"
If I start to hear this word used a lot in a deragatory way in our society, then I might consider not using the word at all. I do not count those that use the term to describe the Japanese of the 1940's.
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Originally posted by Rolex
I commend those of you who have taken the time to read the dictionary and decided they aren't going to use an offensive racial slur.
Kermit and DREDIOCK and a few others are simply wrong. Your opinions and continued rationalizing do not convince anyone that 2+2=3. Just accept that you are wrong, accept that 2+2=4.
Continuing to insist that 2+2=3 makes people lose respect for you, as I have.
Our opinions differ. To myself and others your math is as you put it 2+2=3
whereas ours is 2+2=4.
I've lived with discrimination and racial slurs. Have you?
and as I've said. I have experienced it from ALL sides. Not just as a Black or Hispanic person being beaten on by whites.
I got it from all sides, black, white AND hispanic.
If not. then all you can do is talk about something you've never been forced to experience.
Thus you would be hardly qualified to rationalise a subject youve never been forced to be a part of.
Unless you have lived my life you are in no way in a position to pass judgement on me in any way, shape or form.
Yes I've dealt with all that and I've chosen to grow from it and become hardened to it rather then become a sniveling crybaby calling out for his mama for protection from being "offended".
I've I veiwed my experiences and ended up like those who complain or see it your way. I couldnt respect myself. Let alone want anyone to respect me.
People will either like you. or they wont. Either respect you. or they wont.
And it could be for any reason from race to hair length. It doesnt matter.
So you've lost respect for me. And for what?
Because I choose not to let silly names bother me?
Because I point out that words only have the power you give them or allow them to have?
If you check I havent called anyone. including myself anything other then what they are. Again. myself included.
Lets do a hypothetical
YOU - "Dred, Your a Spic"
ME - "Yea, so?"
You -...........
Ok now what?
What can you say? Not much because I have now taken all the power of the word away. You feel I should be offended. And perhaps you even wanted me to be. But Im not. So now what? where do we go from there?
Nowhere because there isnt anyplace to go with it.
By not letting such silliness bother me I just defeated your entire attack with two words.
Now if that mode of thinking causes you to loose respect for me.
I dont need it
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Originally posted by Murdr
Mr Webster does not seem to back you on that.
Find a dictionary older then 10 years or so. Its since been redefined as I pointed out several posts ago.
When I was a kid I'd heard the word and knew it was bad but didnt know why. So I looked it up then.
Going by memory it was soemthing like "A dirty filty disuting person of low social standing" or something to that effect.
I do know it didnt have any particular race associated with it at all. As I remember at the time that point being quite intersting as I wondered why only blacks were called it. I certainly knew more then enough whites that could certainly fit that definition.
Some even moreso
And before anyone starts getting their panties in a bunch no Im not including nor am I refering to anyone here.
I mean IRL
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Originally posted by Murdr
Shame that you read none of my posts drediock
Actually I read all of them.
In fact after I saw this one I went back and read them again to make sure I hadnt missed one.
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.jp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.jp)
!@!@!!!!@!!1!!!!1!!1111!@!@!!@!@
bunch of .jp planes.. zekes and nikis!
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Find a dictionary older then 10 years or so. Its since been redefined as I pointed out several posts ago.
/IT\, I was not aware of this was an issue until about 10-11 years ago. I, like the thread starter typed it out, and someone politely mentioned to me that it could be offensive to people of Japanese decent.
My reaction was
"Oh. Didnt know that, thanks."
Actually, I probably did know (historically), but it never occured to me.
My reaction was not
"**** you. There is a vast political consperiacy making this up and I will use it anyways because I do not personally know of anyone offended by it, therefore it is not offensive." (call me crazy)
Now considering Rolex is in Japan, and you are not. I believe that puts his qualifications much higher than yours on the subject of what the Japanese culture might think about a topic.
But that is not what you wish to talk about anyways. You want to talk about (tommy chong voice) bucking the esablishment and sticking it to the man.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Actually I read all of them.
In fact after I saw this one I went back and read them again to make sure I hadnt missed one.
Oh, OK. Seemed like you missed the root reference going back over 100 years.
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hey Drediock, i have slightly modified your hypothesis if you would humour me.
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Lets do a hypothetical
YOU - "Dred, Your a Spic"
ME - "Yea, so?"
You - so? so im calling you a spic, which makes you a [inset derogatory and insulting definition of a spic]
so what now?
do you just say 'yea, so?' again?
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Originally posted by Murdr
/IT\, I was not aware of this was an issue until about 10-11 years ago. I, like the thread starter typed it out, and someone politely mentioned to me that it could be offensive to people of Japanese decent.
My reaction was
"Oh. Didnt know that, thanks."
Actually, I probably did know (historically), but it never occured to me.
My reaction was not
"**** you. There is a vast political consperiacy making this up and I will use it anyways because I do not personally know of anyone offended by it, therefore it is not offensive." (call me crazy)
Now considering Rolex is in Japan, and you are not. I believe that puts his qualifications much higher than yours on the subject of what the Japanese culture might think about a topic.
But that is not what you wish to talk about anyways. You want to talk about (tommy chong voice) bucking the esablishment and sticking it to the man.
Bucking the establishment and sticking it to the man??
Where the hell did that come from?
If bucking the establishment is resisting this insanity of political correctness of "ohh we have to be careful not to offend every single group that whines about something said being hurtful reguardless if it was said to be hurtful or not." Then yes. and I will do so until my dying breath
But I think your missing my entire point. And it has nothing to do with "sticking it to the man"
If you or Rolex, or anyone else is offended by a word it is because you choose to be offended.
I used to be offended by derogatory ethnic words that were directed at me. And those were done intentionally to offend me.
As soon as I decided it wasn't worth it getting offended over. the words lost all power to hurt me
In the case of the word "Jap"
If I were to say. "Jap plane "I simply mean Japanese plane"
I think its pretty safe to say that most people no longer use the term to offend.
Now if Rolex or anyone else is offended by it. That is on them. They are choosing to be offended by it because to offend wasn't the intent.
and they very well know it wasn't the intent.
Therefore Not only are they letting the word have power by being offended They are choosing to be offended.
And its not like anyone is saying "Damn filthy Jap" where the intent is obvious.
Or like spic, or the N word.
Where you can be pretty sure that if they are used to you. the person is either joking and busting your chops. or is intentionally trying to offend you.
Its a pretty safe bet when someone these days isn't saying it in any other way. then as an abbreviation For Japanese.
Yea, maybe in the past is was used in a derogatory manner. But today. Not so much.
Now If I can move past and remove the power of the words used on me to intentionally offend me by not allowing myself to be offended.
Then others can move past a term where these days in most part no offence is meant.
Maybe it would be better to realize that unless the word is supported by other words that would indicate its derogatory intent. It probably isn't intended in a derogatory manner.
For example. If I were to say. "I'm flying/He's flying a Jap plane"
I am simply stating the person in question is flying a Japanese plane.
In no way shape or form am I saying it to be derogatory or offensive.
But If I were to say "That damn Jap" Then ok now Im attacking. Now I am trying to offend. Then I can almost buy into someone being upset.
As for me. You can search the threads till your blue in the face and you will have one hell of a time finding one where I have called anyone anything resembling a racial slur.
In this one I have been speaking in generalizations and have included myself in those generalizations to make a point.
Only we can give the words power.
And only we can remove the power of those words.
By not bothering to be offended. We have power over the words.
by being offended over such silliness.
we allow the words have power over us.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
hey Drediock, i have slightly modified your hypothesis if you would humour me.
so what now?
do you just say 'yea, so?' again?
Yup. Although me being a smartarse would probably end up correcting your definition by adding a few things you left out
and so on and so forth.
In the end you will be the one frustrated,offended and pissed off because Im not getting offended and pissed off.
Now. try and say it aint true LOL
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:lol good answer, and i already follow this kind of logic in my life when i can.
i expect that due to our security about who we are and where we have come from enables that usefull trait, perhaps many indivduals and even entire nations don't have that peace of mind to begin with.
the beauty of your solution Drediock, is that any one who reads and understands it cannot deny that it works. but it requires a change of mind set on such a global scale that it would be an impossible idea to convey to every human alive.
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Don't you think the eunuchs and trans-gendered among us might blush at the term "castrati"? Perhaps a "gifted" player logs off in shame when the LTARS start getting abused on Ch. 200? I won't even mention the pitiful victims of their own poor judgement who have to continually watch the word "HO" flash across the screen a dozen times a minute, as if their self esteem wasn't already non-existent.
Of all the things to be concerned about, this seems pretty trivial.
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And what a boring place this will become when none get offended anymore :confused:
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Bucking the establishment and sticking it to the man??
Where the hell did that come from?
That's easy...You are on an anti-PC rap on the basis that you believe the word in question does not affect enough people to qualify as being offensive. Appearently the n word and several other examples still qualifies as a slur, but this other one has lost its slur status. So everyone should follow your lead and use it freely. After all, it must no longer be a slur because it's kind of obscure compared to the list of others. At least it has not been one in your experience. Heck since your experience is tapped into the entire English speaking world, you must be right.
Oh, wait. That's what the PC crowd does isn't it? They arbitrarily decide what common term is now considered offensive. We just need to do the opposite, and declare what offensive terms, are cleared to return 'use in mixed company' status. What word is next on the adjenda that I can start to use freely?
Originally posted by Skuzzy
This has nothing to do with being "PC". I detest that term as well. It has everything to do with being respectful and mindful of being part of an international community.
That's the third reply to the thread. What is so hard about shrugging and saying "When in Rome...."? Nothing is hard about it...Unless you're just "offended" at the thought of it.
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You don't offend me at all, DREDIOCK. Normal people, including the Japanese I know in the game and on vox, understand that not everyone intends offense, but there are some that do.
Kermit and a few others don't offend me either. They are an embarrassment, but I'm not offended. They (and even you) could simply type jp or JP and this topic would go away, but no. They won't do that because we could go back to enjoying the game and not be an audience for their anti-social behavior. Games are platforms for their antisocial or passive-aggressive behavior, not places for fun. Of course, they don't recognize this in themselves.
They'll deny to the hilt, or come up with twisted reasoning, but continue provoking people and hope they can create some offense from their coy language so they can innocently say "Who, me?" then share their high school philosophy with all of us until we squelch them.
It's just like the other social anomalies - the teenagers and infrequent troublemakers who come and go in the game just to throw out some racial epithets, hoping to provoke a response. There aren't that many of them, but the passive-aggressive ones are smart and you know what they say about bigots... it's the smart ones that are most dangerous.
I think this thread ran its course long ago. Here's hoping for a lock.
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did ANYONE read my reply ?
as i said there is a car parts importer in JAPAN , owned by a Japanese buisness man who runs a company called JAP IMPORTS. He even sponsors JAP CAR FEST over here in blighty?
hmm a japanese man , using Jap . hmmmmm........
OH and i'm welsh and therefor don't want to be called taffy ......
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i read your reply taffy, i liked it :D
(PS: my mother and her mother were born in Neath)
S!
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HAHA your a son of a THIEF.....oh hang on that means.......ahh nuts......never mind the rugby was good to watch:)
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Originally posted by kj714
Perhaps a "gifted" player logs off in shame when the LTARS start getting abused on Ch. 200?
Oh . . . that is supposed to be abuse? I thought it was being descriptive . . . :noid
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Originally posted by Murdr
That's easy...You are on an anti-PC rap on the basis that you believe the word in question does not affect enough people to qualify as being offensive. Appearently the n word and several other examples still qualifies as a slur, but this other one has lost its slur status. So everyone should follow your lead and use it freely. After all, it must no longer be a slur because it's kind of obscure compared to the list of others. At least it has not been one in your experience. Heck since your experience is tapped into the entire English speaking world, you must be right.
Oh, wait. That's what the PC crowd does isn't it? They arbitrarily decide what common term is now considered offensive. We just need to do the opposite, and declare what offensive terms, are cleared to return 'use in mixed company' status. What word is next on the adjenda that I can start to use freely?
That's the third reply to the thread. What is so hard about shrugging and saying "When in Rome...."? Nothing is hard about it...Unless you're just "offended" at the thought of it.
WOW Murdr,
I never knew you were such a champion of yuppiedom, it's as tho common sense is somehow a threat to your existance?
I personally HATE the PC world and agree whole heartedly with Drediock, when I was kid the old saying was "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me".
A tuffer skin would would make the world a better place for most folks and I think end some the stupid squabbles we have world wide.
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Alright. Let's try an experiment.
Go grab three women. Make a very crass joke about women. You know what you'll find?
One will cry and yell at you;
One will not even notice; and
One will laugh her bellybutton off.
All three are women. The only difference is that two have a life.
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My Father fought 36 continuous months in WWII...from Australia to the Phillipines with the 41st Sunset Division. The 41st "Jungleers" were called "butchers" by the Japanese because the 41st Division took few prisoners.
After WWII, he again fought in Korea...
And, in 1965...he went to Viet Nam as a civilian contractor and came home again in 1975.
In all of my life I never heard my Father refer to any Asian Peoples in a derogatory manner. He fought them, but never belittled them.
My Father taught me to think, "globally", to respect other Nations' culture, philosophy, and religion. He didn't say I had to accept these views...just respect that others have different views than my own.
In 1975, I was a young US Marine on liberty in Tokyo. I, and a fellow Marine entered a bar on the Ginza Strip. It was empty, but the bartender spoke English, so we had a drink. Soon, two Japanese Gentlemen entered the bar; one sat next to me, and the other, next to my fellow Marine.
The Japanese Gentleman who sat next to me engaged me in English, my native tounge, and the two of us explored history...
This Japanese Gentleman was my Fathers' age, as was his companion.
Whilst he and I explored history, my fellow Marine, and the Japanese Gentlemans' friend were in heated debate about Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima! The Gentleman with whom I was priveleged to converse had served as a Submarine Commander and told me about the realism the Japanese Navy felt by 1945. The debate on our left began to get heated, and the Japanese Gentleman rose from his seat, softly spoke to his companion, and they both left the bar. I asked my felow Marine what brought about the rift in their conversation and he said, " the guy asked me why Hiroshima and I said...remember Pearl Harbor?". My fellow Marines' language was not as polite as depicted here.
When the Japanese Gentleman left with his companion he spoke a few words to the bartender. I ordered a drink for us Marines, and was taken aback when the bartender refused payment!
The Bartender explained that the Japanese Gentleman with whom I had been conversing left instructions that any drinks we two US Marines should take would be out of his, the Japanese Gentleman's, personal bottle. The Bartender explained that this was an Honor and to not accept would be an affront. I ordered two drinks, one for me, and one for my fellow Marine, and saluted the Japanese Submarine Commander for his Graciousness, and for me, his insight into a bit of history.
My Father fought the Japanese. In his lifetime I've never heard him refer to the Japanese as...Japs...nor did I ever hear him refer to Germans, as Nazis...nor the North Koreans, or Chinese as "Reds".
I respect my Father's views, and his courage to respect opposing views. I have endevored to do the same.
Today, the Internet gives us instant access to ......the World.
Why, on Earth, do we wish to insult others with whom we interact Globally, in Aces High? This is our Community! When Folks at work ask me what I do on my off hours, I tell them I play an online game that encompasses the entire world; I am priveleged to interact and talk with Folks from all around the Globe!
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Originally posted by Murdr
That's easy...You are on an anti-PC rap on the basis that you believe the word in question does not affect enough people to qualify as being offensive. Appearently the n word and several other examples still qualifies as a slur, but this other one has lost its slur status. So everyone should follow your lead and use it freely. After all, it must no longer be a slur because it's kind of obscure compared to the list of others. At least it has not been one in your experience. Heck since your experience is tapped into the entire English speaking world, you must be right.
Oh, wait. That's what the PC crowd does isn't it? They arbitrarily decide what common term is now considered offensive. We just need to do the opposite, and declare what offensive terms, are cleared to return 'use in mixed company' status. What word is next on the adjenda that I can start to use freely?
That's the third reply to the thread. What is so hard about shrugging and saying "When in Rome...."? Nothing is hard about it...Unless you're just "offended" at the thought of it.
I wasn't and haven't been only referring to the one single word in question.
but pretty much all of them.
And wether it effects them or not is irrelevant.
I have repeatedly said. rather then be offended. grow a thicker skin and worry more about the things in the world actually worth being offended over.
Silly words isn't one of them.
Now bearing that in mind I defy you to show me when and where I have not followed the "when in Rome" doctrine.
You will be hard pressed to find any reference by me here or in game.
There may be one time when I have used the word "Jap" in a derogatory sense.
. But even that wasn't coming from me but rather I was quoting my father in law directly word for word about one of his WWII experiences word for word when he lost a friend of his whom was right next to him.
To have written it any other way would have taken away some of the flavor of the story and the salty character of my father in law.
Whom Unlike Patches father. Has never been able to forgive the Japanese
And wouldn't be real shy about saying so if asked.
But Like Patches father. He has earned the right to feel any way he wants about it in battle.
I am sure that for every veteran like Patches father, there is another like my father in law.
But like I said. that's their right to feel about it any way they want.
I wouldnt dream of trying ot tell either they were wrong for how they feel.
Only those who served with them have the right to pass that kind of judgement
But other then occasionally abbreviating Jap for Japanese. Your going to hard pressed to find a comment by me in that manner.
Come to think of it. other then the story mentioned above. Your probably going to be hard pressed outside of this thread to find me using the term "Jap" Although I might have. I do not remember doing so.
And if I have. It has always been used as an abbreviation and not in the derogatory.
And while I may practice the "When in Rome" doctrine here, And in reality it would be a rare bird you found if you ever were to see me use them IRL for that matter.
I do not agree that people in general should be so damn,yes PC and huggy feely about worrying about offending this one or that one. Or this group or that group.
Particularly where mere words are concerned.
But rather I think the "offended" would be far better off. Not being Huggy feely themselves and yes, Growing a thicker skin. Just as I have from my own experiences and not letting such silliness bother them.
Again. The words only have power if we let them have power over us.
But just for the record. Yes the PC crowd does do exactly that.
And its reached the point of absurity.
But just because everyone else is jumping off that bridge. Doesnt mean I have to because right now its the popular thing to do.
As a rule I dont go around intentionally offending anyone.
sometimes I do. Sometimes if it was unintended and depending o the situation I might even apologise for having done so.
Other times.
Well lets just say I dont loose a whole lot of sleep over it.
Then again. I dont loose a whole lot of sleep over being offended either.
The worlds a rough offencive place.
You can either -A- toughen up and learn to live with it.
Or -B- huddle crumpled in a corner calling for mama to protect you.
I'll stick with -A- As it makes me feel much more dignified and places me on a higher and stronger ground then those who would seek to offend me.
You can wetnurse those in option -B- if you like
But they wont become any better or stronger that way.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Alright. Let's try an experiment.
Go grab three women. Make a very crass joke about women. You know what you'll find?
One will cry and yell at you;
One will not even notice; and
One will laugh her bellybutton off.
All three are women. The only difference is that two have a life.
But what I want to know is why is it if a man talks dirty to a woman its harrassment.
Yet if a woman talks dirty to a man its $2.95 an minute
;)
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Originally posted by Boxboy
WOW Murdr,
I never knew you were such a champion of yuppiedom, it's as tho common sense is somehow a threat to your existance?
I personally HATE the PC world and agree whole heartedly with Drediock, when I was kid the old saying was "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me".
A tuffer skin would would make the world a better place for most folks and I think end some the stupid squabbles we have world wide.
Don't confuse playing devil's advocate with what I might actually think about something. I have known Dred much longer than AH has been around. I challenged him to put the topic at hand in perspective with the much broader argument he was advocating. I think he did that well in his last reply to me.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
But I didn't mean it in a derogatory way, so how could it be offensive?
Oh and gringo is not a racist or ethnic slur, as Americans are not a race or ethnicity.
But thanks for proving my point anyway.
ack-ack
From The american heritage dictionary, you racist scum:
Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a foreigner in Latin America, especially an American or English person. Spanish, foreign, foreign language, gibberish,...
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Originally posted by Patches1
My Father fought 36 continuous months in WWII...
Patches, great story!
Gunner
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
But what I want to know is why is it if a man talks dirty to a woman its harrassment.
Yet if a woman talks dirty to a man its $2.95 an minute
;)
Because we're stupid enough to pay, and can't tell that the woman on the other end of the phone is 57, a grandmother, and has a face that looks like a Rand-McNally map under a frost blue wig. LOL
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
From The american heritage dictionary, you racist scum:
Unless I completely missed the true context here, doesn't this comment completely invalidate this 'chump' from any consideration as an unbiased authority on any plane of existance? lol
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Originally posted by Sloehand
Unless I completely missed the true context here, doesn't this comment completely invalidate this 'chump' from any consideration as an unbiased authority on any plane of existance? lol
The dictionary is the authority in this instance. If you are referring to me, I'm am an "authority" on few things. The older you get, the more you realize just how little you know.
If you are referring to Ack-ack, his racism is documented on these boards.
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Here is some English for beginners....
devil's advocate
n : someone who takes the worse side just for the sake of
argument
For Steve:
Sarcasm is the sneering, jesting, or mocking of a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound
— stating the opposite of the intended meaning
For Steve:
sat·ire
–noun
1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.
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Murdr, for you to blindly support a squaddie basically eliminates you as one I would consider debating with since you really don't have an opinion, you are just reacting. Ack-ack has used the racial slur "gringo", along with others, in the past on the board. You and I are done here.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Murdr, for you to blindly support a squaddie basically eliminates you as one I would consider debating with since you really don't have an opinion, you are just reacting.
I trust you will have no problem having this quote thrown back at you the next time you and your squaddies jump to the defense of a certain muppet's poor in-game behavior?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
From The american heritage dictionary, you racist scum:
Great source of information there, they can't even spell colour or armour properly.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Murdr, for you to blindly support a squaddie basically eliminates you as one I would consider debating with since you really don't have an opinion, you are just reacting. Ack-ack has used the racial slur "gringo", along with others, in the past on the board. You and I are done here.
Gringo???? C'mon Steve, I'm the whitest guy on the face of the earth and I've never taken offense to the word "gringo". It's part of the name of probably thousands of bars, restaurants and cheap hotels across the southwest and in Baja Mex. I've got a couple of t-shirts somewhere that say "gringo" something or other, eaten I don't know how many gringo taco's, and drank many gringo margaritas.
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Originally posted by kj714
I'm the whitest guy on the face of the earth and I've never taken offense to the word "gringo".
Sorry, I was unaware that you decide what offends me.
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Originally posted by E25280
I trust you will have no problem having this quote thrown back at you the next time you and your squaddies jump to the defense of a certain muppet's poor in-game behavior?
E25280, have you read my comments about a certain muppet's behavior?
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Ok. We have to take this down to grade school level then I guess.
On the first page of this thread:
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Regardless if you're Japanese or not, how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them. Why is that so hard to understand?
ack-ack
In direct quoted reply to that he got...
Exactly my point.
It's how you use it. "Dumb Jap" is one thing, but to just casually say "Jap" in a friendly way online is okay by me.
and
Abrreviating a word for online use is fine by me.
I find other words be to offensive and I will not use them.
The word Jap spoken in a friendly way is NOT offensive. If you use it in a derogatory way, then well, it's offensive. That word is an abbreviation.
Actually there's more in the way of argumentative replies, but let's keep moving.
So to show the weakness of the counter argument that is is OK to use an offensive word as long as you (the person using it) didn't mean it in a derogatory way, AKAK presented examples using alternate slurs in that line of thinking. This shows how ridiculous that reasoning is. (see satire definintion above)
As AKAK said, your reaction proved his point. It is just as offensive "in a friendly way" to say "gringo", or "jap" or any other word like that. Meaning quote "Regardless (of) how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them." How so? Because you took offense to it regardless of how it was said.
Wait. In case you missed it, here's the point he was trying to make...
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Regardless if you're Japanese or not, how you use the term or what "inflection" you use when saying it, it's offensive to them. Why is that so hard to understand?
ack-ack
So there is nothing to debate with me about. Because you either just don't pay attention, or illustrating absurdity with absurdity is too high a form of making a point for you. Either way, I don't care because you are acting like a jerk.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Great source of information there, they can't even spell colour or armour properly.
LOL i like it :)
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Man, where's the O'club when you need it???
Wait, This will probably be moved in there Mon. morning...Good luck with those guys in there.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Ok. We have to take this down to grade school level then I guess.
Either way, I don't care because you are acting like a jerk.
Since you seem to have trouble understading my posts, I'll try once more then I'm out of this thread. I'm not referring to AKAK's comments in this thread, he has made racial slurs in other threads.
You can continue to hold AKAK's jock all you want, it's plain to me you cannot see beyond it so I'm done with you. I will not be returning to read your next simpering retort.
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Is charlie a bad word?
How about Red?
These words are not shortened from longer words so they must only mean one thing.
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Well gee Steve, the way you snapped off at me that Im blind, I don't have an opinion, and I am to be dissmissed in reply to my posting two definitions, makes you the poster boy for not offending people.
Don't be an ******* with me for no good reason and expect a pleasent response.
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Every person of Japanese decent I have known is offended by the names given them during WWII. One is JAP and the other is NIP. These names, which they did not choose for themselves, are as bad as the N word. I caution people to be aware of this. The war is over, they are allies and a very honorable people. I wouldn't dream of offending them.
TIGERESS
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after reading this whole worthless thread, I have seen no reference torwards a towel head, or a camel jockey, or a sand N*****. A jap plane is a jap plane. Get over it.