Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Open Beta Test => Topic started by: Traveler on September 16, 2016, 08:17:36 PM
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I appreciate the effort to get the relationship between the Manifold (Engine Power) and Prop (Thrust) correct in AH3. However, after flying the P38G it would appear that the associated engine sound is assigned to both, Manifold power and Prop thrust, thus when in a none powered glide with the throttle retarded there is still engine sound as a result of the prop lever being full forward. Anyone else notice this, please discuss?
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I think that it is controlled by aircraft speed, rpm, and load. I could be mistaken.
EDIT: Throttle level obviously plays a part in it too.
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I'm still having major sound problems. I think Htc will correct everything soon. I understand it is the first stages of AH3
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Load up a film, go external view, and pan around airplane while in flight. Listen to how the engine speed sound changes drastically. Might be a clue what's possibly going wrong.
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Load up a film, go external view, and pan around airplane while in flight. Listen to how the engine speed sound changes drastically. Might be a clue what's possibly going wrong.
The sounds also change quite a bit, while looking around the cockpit online. Not nearly as radical as in the film viewer, but something is not right. This issue has yet to be addressed.
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The way that FMOD generates sounds for the game is different than the way it was in AH2. The way HTC approached it in AH2 was to minimize the size and number of audio files to make it economical, if you will. A few sounds that are used in many different machines makes sense when you want to make it easy on the various computers your users might use.
When HTC went to collect audio to use they came up with up to sixteen tracks (I don't know if that was interior or exterior, or both). For sure, interior sounds have almost nothing to do with exterior sounds. It's just the way sound works, so that when a man is inside of a canopy and close to the sound source that he will hear things differently than someone outside.
Listen to the 262. It is nearly perfect as is. Perhaps, it could use a little adjustment, but it's really, really good. There are other aircraft and vehicles that are probably very good, also. To make things perfect is going to take some time. I have been playing some of the aircraft and I think some like the Storch could probably work well with maybe a half dozen samples. Others like the 109s, or anything with that external whine/whistle could use many more, and I'm just talking engine sounds. You can't do that with what we had before.
I think this new system is going to be the best there is, but it is going to take time.
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I think that it is controlled by aircraft speed, rpm, and load. I could be mistaken.
EDIT: Throttle level obviously plays a part in it too.
NO, in the game the Engine Sound is associated with the throttle and throttle position, however, engine sound is also associated with RPM and really should not be, it should be a different sound, not the mechanical sound of the engine, but rather an associated wind sound from the prop generating thrust. I should not change engine sound by changing prop pitch, that is advancing or retracting RPM. They had it pretty much right in AHII. At least with the P38's. My changing the fuel intake is the only thing that should alter the engine sound.
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No, load plays into the sound also. As the propeller loads and unloads the sound will change. If you are just on the ground changing the prop rpm, then no it shouldn't sound any different. Not to where you can hear it at least. Ascending/descending is different.
Now, the HTC projects folder does not include the more complex aircraft. It has the Fi156 only. It would be interesting to see how HTC did the sounds as they are now, but I didn't think I needed to see that from reading up on how this engine designer works. If you watch the FMOD video on how the load affects car engines, it should make more sense.
EDIT: for the curious!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhFPoxo-N_g
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You have two sources of the sound on an aircraft, the prop and the engine, most planes in the game have constant speed props so they will keep up the rpm even if thrust is reduced. the way we fly, with full power and max rpm there should be a lot of noise from the prop that should disappear when prop rpm is reduced.
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The prop, the engine, the supercharger, the radiator, and on the F4Us there is the intercooler. And then there's exhaust. Now why would that be different from the engine?
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I have commented on this before. When I cut the throttle, the sound stays the same only it get quitter. The customs sounds I have in AH II, the engines sounds are different as the throttle changes. The constant engine sound is annoying, to me anyway.
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I have commented on this before. When I cut the throttle, the sound stays the same only it get quitter. The customs sounds I have in AH II, the engines sounds are different as the throttle changes. The constant engine sound is annoying, to me anyway.
You are confusing prop noise and engine noise. In AH2 they were one sound together, in AH3 they are separate sounds. The constant sound that doesn't change much with the throttle is the RPM, lower the RPM and it changes.
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NO, in the game the Engine Sound is associated with the throttle and throttle position, however, engine sound is also associated with RPM and really should not be, it should be a different sound, not the mechanical sound of the engine, but rather an associated wind sound from the prop generating thrust. I should not change engine sound by changing prop pitch, that is advancing or retracting RPM. They had it pretty much right in AHII. At least with the P38's. My changing the fuel intake is the only thing that should alter the engine sound.
This is 100% wrong.
HiTech
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Something which will enlighten those who are confused by a constant speed propeller operation (and no this is not a slam....just trying to clear the fog of confusion).
http://www.askacfi.com/5912/rpm-and-power.htm (http://www.askacfi.com/5912/rpm-and-power.htm)
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I should not change engine sound by changing prop pitch, that is advancing or retracting RPM.
Real life you hear a change in engine sound with RPM changes. Sometimes only a little, sometimes a lot (like if you roll the RPM way back at high manifold settings)
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This is 100% wrong.
HiTech
it does on my version, if I am in the air and reduce throttle to 10 MPH and I reduce the RPM to 700 the engine sound (noise level) is reduced, IF I advance the RPM to 3000, the engine noise level is raised. I haven't advanced the throttle. I'll send you film.
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You really need to give time for the new sounds to sink in. They seem wrong in the beginning after ah2 but in short amount of time it will sound right as if that is the way should have sounded in ah2. AH3 sounds are way ahead of AH2.
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You are confusing prop noise and engine noise. In AH2 they were one sound together, in AH3 they are separate sounds. The constant sound that doesn't change much with the throttle is the RPM, lower the RPM and it changes.
But it isn't correct the way it's working. At minimum throttle you don't hear hi RPM sound since the RPM drops once the throttle is reduced far enough that it can no longer maintain RPM. As it is now you hear high RPM sound with low engine sound...ain't right.
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But it isn't correct the way it's working. At minimum throttle you don't hear hi RPM sound since the RPM drops once the throttle is reduced far enough that it can no longer maintain RPM. As it is now you hear high RPM sound with low engine sound...ain't right.
From what I've seen in AH3, RPM drops with low throttle, both the sound and the guage, even when it's set to full RPM, unless air pressure maintains the RPMs. In a high speed dive RPM can increase past max and stays high with reduced throttle from air pressure. I just checked the P-38G and low throttle gives low RPM on the ground. Do you think there is too much engine noise at idle when the prop is faster from air pressure?
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I was going to check your ride, Colmbo, except I'm not getting aircraft types from online stats. Maybe you were flying something I haven't tried lately?
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From what I've seen in AH3, RPM drops with low throttle, both the sound and the guage, even when it's set to full RPM,
On the ground it does. I noticed this in the 51D and 38J, idle throttle on final with IAS below 150, RPM still above 2500 with corresponding sound.
Not a big deal I guess. Just something the real world pilot side of me notices.
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Landing a P-51D:
https://youtu.be/T5D6spj-w7o
That's pretty close to what I get out of my sound card. The unloading of the prop as the airplane decelerates on the ground is just a matter of adding more sound samples, but I believe it can be done.
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On the ground it does. I noticed this in the 51D and 38J, idle throttle on final with IAS below 150, RPM still above 2500 with corresponding sound.
Not a big deal I guess. Just something the real world pilot side of me notices.
Wouldn't you be adjusting RPM to lower it?
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Wouldn't you be adjusting RPM to lower it?
No, in real world for a landing or taking off aircraft, the Prop control (RPM) is set for flat pitch on the prop, high speed, max RPM.
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The pilot's manual says 2700rpm; just like it is in the game.
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Wouldn't you be adjusting RPM to lower it?
Depends on the airplane. Generally the Prop control is put in the high RPM position to facilitate a power increase if needed.
Modern day flying the B-17 and B-24 the RPM is left at 2000RPM (vs 2500 or 2700) during approach to help prevent having the prop drive the engine which leads to premature engine failure. As the aircraft touch down the non flying pilot brings the prop control up to High RPM.
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Landing a P-51D:
https://youtu.be/T5D6spj-w7o
That's pretty close to what I get out of my sound card. The unloading of the prop as the airplane decelerates on the ground is just a matter of adding more sound samples, but I believe it can be done.
What I'm hearing i that video is engine noise. In game the prop noise overrides the engine noise, real world you don't hear that.
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The pilot's manual says 2700rpm; just like it is in the game.
A constant speed propeller/governor is not a controllable pitch prop in the sense that the pilot sets the prop control to determine the RPM, not the prop pitch. The governor will adjust the propeller to whatever pitch it needs to maintain the RPM, as long as the prop pitch is not at the high or low stop. Normally the propeller control is set to full forward or full in for maximum RPM. Full throttle and maximum RPM are used for takeoff and climb. In the old days, you would be taught to reduce the manifold pressure and RPM after takeoff and add back manifold pressure as you climbed, for example 25 square, which means set the manifold pressure to 25 inches and the RPM to 2500. This was found to be harder on the engine than leaving the throttle at the wide open position. The reason for this is that the throttle linkage provides for additional fuel at the full forward position and provides extra cooling in the climb. When you retard the throttle, the mixture is leaned, the engine runs hotter, and performance is reduced. Most engines are rated for continuous operation at full power which means full throttle and maximum RPM. Typical maximum RPM values are between 2500 and 2700 RPM.
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On the ground it does. I noticed this in the 51D and 38J, idle throttle on final with IAS below 150, RPM still above 2500 with corresponding sound.
Not a big deal I guess. Just something the real world pilot side of me notices.
Hi Colmbo,
When in my Spitty I've noticed the same as you. The throttle and prop RPM synch up when on the ground and on takeoff. Once wheels up and IAS is above 120-150 the game now will unsynch throttle and prop RPM control to a certain extent according to the particular power\prop thrust calculations band needed to sustain proper engine power ratings for flight so a player can make separate manifold (or boost) changes w\ throttle, set to a particular player selected prop RPM within a preset prop RPM min\max range according to flight attitude (to allow for more realistic engine management control during flight IF a player is actually using the prop RPM control setting in AHII & III along w\ the throttle control). When landing, the throttle and prop RPM stays unsynched and will follow where the prop RPM is set prior.....if at 2500 it will stay at 2500, if at 2600 it will stay at 2600, if at 1500 it will stay at 1500, etc then the throttle will work within the set prop RPM setting thruout final until wheels touchdown and IAS drops below either 75 or 80 which is coded to say that the plane can't sustain enough lift to actually fly then the game will resynch the throttle w\ the prop RPM control then you will hear the engine lower it's RPM's.
Since a while back (approx. 6 mos ago) on a thread I had brought up a question in a posting on the advent of having the ability to have dual engine control, Hitech came on and posted that AH has this ability already coded and it is called prop RPM. I didn't know that all the time I've been playing this game, even though I've noticed this setting under Flight a myriad of times but never put it together.
I have this setting now mapped to my CH Throttle under my index finger hat button using the vertical 2 buttons so that I can now work both control settings using the same hand at the same time if desired....much like a RL pilot "could" be doing. Notice I didn't say "would"...............
Since I've been using prop RPM control now in conjunction w\ throttle control for the last 6 months I've gained a LOT more perspective on all this working since...........at least from within AHII\III............
The sounds are already there and present. The thing to work out IMHO is at what point do you simulate the manifold pressure setting w\ the fuel mixture setting to put the engine power output to not be sufficient to maintain the set prop RPM's when prop pitch is backed off to the min prop angle stop (min engine load from prop thrust) so after that point it is just a matter of synching the 2 back up as after this point any further manifold pressure reduction will lower engine\prop RPM's further due to further power reduction against the min prop pitch angle, correct? Then it's just a matter of assigning a sound sample change from this point for each inch\pound of manifold pressure change to match the reduced engine RPM's until the throttle is at full back position which should be at full engine idle. This would be for throttle usage in the current form in AHIII for the majority of players (player using throttle only and game coding setting the rest).
This sounds simple but I think this is not as simple to code and make it seem "real" as I've potentially made it seem from my post...................
But I CAN tell you that by my controlling both throttle AND prop RPM separate during landing makes controlling\maintaining the proper landing glide path and landing speeds MUCH, MUCH easier, especially in a plane such as a Spitfire due to the modeling of it's wing vs just using the throttle alone w\ the game modeling the engine prop RPM's at full prop RPM setting w\ the prop pitch modeled at min pitch angle. I've also noticed some aspects while in flight that are advantageous while controlling these controls separately but it takes a HOTAS w\ sufficient controls in the throttle\joystick handle where your fingers will be to take full advantage of it.
Well this is my 2 cents thrown in on this topic.
I know I'm not saying anything you don't already know.
:D
:salute
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Depends on the airplane. Generally the Prop control is put in the high RPM position to facilitate a power increase if needed.
Modern day flying the B-17 and B-24 the RPM is left at 2000RPM (vs 2500 or 2700) during approach to help prevent having the prop drive the engine which leads to premature engine failure. As the aircraft touch down the non flying pilot brings the prop control up to High RPM.
So you're saying the RPM drops but not as much as it should? In other words the air pressure is keeping the RPM too high or the engine isn't slowing it down enough for the air pressure?
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If prop rpm is at max and engine at idle the prop will windmill and keep the engine rpm over idle so the prop is driving the engine instead of the opposite.
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If prop rpm is at max and engine at idle the prop will windmill and keep the engine rpm over idle so the prop is driving the engine instead of the opposite.
The question seems to be how much RPM at what airspeed.
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The question seems to be how much RPM at what airspeed.
That was not my original point, the relationship between Manifold Pressure and RPM appears to be the same as it was in AHII , except in AHII the engine noise was associated with Throttle (MAP) and a second sound, Prop Sound was associated with RPM. In AHIII the engine noise sound associated with Throttle is also associated with RPM. Thus when in a power off approach and I advance my RPM to High or Max RPM the sound is that of an engine increasing in power or at least that is how it sounds to me.
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That was not my original point, the relationship between Manifold Pressure and RPM appears to be the same as it was in AHII , except in AHII the engine noise was associated with Throttle (MAP) and a second sound, Prop Sound was associated with RPM. In AHIII the engine noise sound associated with Throttle is also associated with RPM. Thus when in a power off approach and I advance my RPM to High or Max RPM the sound is that of an engine increasing in power or at least that is how it sounds to me.
Sorry I wasn't clear. The question of how much RPM v air pressure is from the discussion with Colmbo.
RPM changes with no throttle change in a way it didn't in AH2 so there is a difference in the model with sound, RPM, thrust and the associated effects like gyroscopic precession.
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Depends on the airplane. Generally the Prop control is put in the high RPM position to facilitate a power increase if needed.
Modern day flying the B-17 and B-24 the RPM is left at 2000RPM (vs 2500 or 2700) during approach to help prevent having the prop drive the engine which leads to premature engine failure. As the aircraft touch down the non flying pilot brings the prop control up to High RPM.
Just to put it out there, I've found in game that my Spitty matches up best on final when I set the RPM's to 2,000 as well w\ throttle holding boost around 2-4 lbs at the proper glide path.........
The landings are just beautiful at these power settings..........
:aok
:salute
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RPM changes with no throttle change in a way it didn't in AH2 so there is a difference in the model with sound, RPM, thrust and the associated effects like gyroscopic precession.
Throttle and RPM work exactly the same for me. I could make independent throttle and RPM changes in AH2 and AH3.
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Throttle and RPM work exactly the same for me. I could make independent throttle and RPM changes in AH2 and AH3.
If you dive to high speed you will see RPM increase with no change in settings. If you zoom climb to a stall you will also see an RPM change. Those are new as well as the prop pitch governor lag when you change RPM.
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OK, the engine sounds are basically the same in AH III as in AH II, but that is the default sound. The customs sounds on AH II are very different. When I cut the throttle, the engine stays just as loud, but the pitch changes. If you are looking at the default sounds they are really different from the custom sounds and worse.
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...When I cut the throttle, the engine stays just as loud, but the pitch changes. ...
That's how it was in AH2, and since that's not accurate it was changed for AH3. I understand that you prefer the old model.
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That was not my original point, the relationship between Manifold Pressure and RPM appears to be the same as it was in AHII , except in AHII the engine noise was associated with Throttle (MAP) and a second sound, Prop Sound was associated with RPM. In AHIII the engine noise sound associated with Throttle is also associated with RPM. Thus when in a power off approach and I advance my RPM to High or Max RPM the sound is that of an engine increasing in power or at least that is how it sounds to me.
Your post is incoherent because of your terms. ( engine noise was associated with Throttle) I have no idea what this means.
And also I have no idea what this means. ( Prop Sound was associated with RPM. ).
Please use the terms Frequency and volume.
In ah3 Manifold pressure is primarily controlling volume (also other sound changes but not frequency), RPM control is changing the frequency of the sound.
The question seems to be how much RPM at what airspeed.
This is a valid question that is not an easy answer and varies with planes and props.
HiTech
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So you're saying the RPM drops but not as much as it should?
Yes, it seems that way to me. The sound matches the RPM so not so much a sound problem as an engine modeling glitch.
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Why not make some sounds for us all then? I'm sure with your experience they will be perfect!
Anyone working on that?
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Yes, it seems that way to me. The sound matches the RPM so not so much a sound problem as an engine modeling glitch.
Do you recall what the B-17 and B-24 RPM rise to from 2000 when the co-pilot sets max RPM on touch down?
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Do you recall what the B-17 and B-24 RPM rise to from 2000 when the co-pilot sets max RPM on touch down?
The RPM doesn't increase at all, the engines are pulled to idle during the flare for landing. To increase RPM would require an increase in throttle.
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Real life you hear a change in engine sound with RPM changes. Sometimes only a little, sometimes a lot (like if you roll the RPM way back at high manifold settings)
:airplane: Correct and what I think must of these guys don't undstand is with constant speed props, prop sound is only going to change down around 12 inches of manifolf pressure. Same way with decreasing RPM, say from 2500RPM to 2,000 RPM, sound will change as the manifold pressure will increase, giving the engine or engines a different sound.
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The RPM doesn't increase at all, the engines are pulled to idle during the flare for landing. To increase RPM would require an increase in throttle.
So you're landing around 100 mph and that does not give full RPM with the throttle to idle but it does in Aces High.
Now if you can just find out what airspeed pushes the props back to full RPM... :D