Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Pyro on August 14, 2001, 03:18:00 PM
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Ok, I've ran with Funked's suggestion. This will roughly be how it goes with some modifications.
1. Kanalkampf I: Day of the Würger
Allies:
Spit V
Spit IX (perk)
B-26
Axis:
Me 109F-4
Me 109G-2
Fw 190A-5
Ju 88
2. Kanalkampf II: The Empire Strikes Back
Allies:
Spit V
Spit IX
Typhoon (Perk)
B-26
Axis:
Me 109F-4
Me 109G-2
Fw 190A-5
Ju 88
3. 8th AF Arrives
Allies:
Spit IX
P-47D-11
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109F-4
Me 109G-2
Me 109G-6
Fw 190A-5
Ju 88
4. Overlord
Allies:
Spit IX
Typhoon
Lancaster
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109G-2
Me 109G-6
Me 109G-10
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Ju 88
5. Invasion of Germany
Allies:
Spit IX
Typhoon
Tempest (Perk)
Lancaster
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-30
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109G-2
Me 109G-6
Me 109G-10
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Fw 190D-9 (Perk)
Ju 88
Ar 234 (Perk)
6. Final Days of the Reich
Allies
Spit IX
Typhoon
Tempest (Perk)
Lancaster
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-30
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109G-6
Me 109G-10
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Fw 190D-9
Ta 152 (Perk)
Ju 88
Ar 234 (Perk)
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Thanks for the info Pyro...
Just one question... how long will each planeset be kept?
AKDejaVu
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Don't see any goonies in that plane set,are we not going to implement field capture in this CA? (Sorry, been away from the boards, haven't kept up on the latest scoops)
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Sounds great! Implemented when?
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Was in CT(A) for about an hour tonight was great fun.............
Thanks Pyro
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yep, different map makes BIG difference. Much fun!
<S>HTC
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Question: Should we get the new ETO aircraft (1.08), will there be improvisions made for them?
The two new Hurri models would be early war, but later on when the front line changes (Allies in Europe) it would be nice to have the tank busting model for bustin' tanks. The IIC would be nice for A2G as well.
And I'm sure the Axis players would want the Me262.
I'm also curious: Is N. Africa and Southern Europe on this map or not?
If they are, why are the C.202 and C.205 excluded?
-SW
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The CT changed to episode 3 today.
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Thanks Pyro!
Hoep to make it on and kill two birds with one stone; chekcout the new setup and also test new dx beta.
Westy
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Thanks Pyro!
Hoping to make it on and kill two birds with one stone; checkout the new setup and also test new dx beta.
Westy
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Hooray for the CT!
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Cool. This should give the P-47 a "day in the sun" where it is the fastest plane. Maybe for the Overlord setup make the P-51D a perk plane, so the P-51B gets a similar spotlight.
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wish p38 was enabled for this third segment. :(
it needs day in sun too :)
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Yeah it would be cool if we had a P-38G or an F or an H.
[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Yahoo!!!!!!!
Finally get to fly my favorites: All American P series (though F4U-1D is a close 2nd to P-51D in my eyes).
Prior to arrival of 8th AF, I will fly LW and continue my concerted effort to learn how to shoot straight with their pitiful ballistics as I have no desire to refine my Spitfire skills. But as soon as P-47 & P-51 arrive, I will fly whichever side is outnumbered.
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Ach yaaaaaaa zomething else than Shpitsfire to shoot at !
WTG Pyro!
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I also like the idea of introducing the USAAF planes to AH but please bear in mind that when the 8th arrive in section 3 they get the b17 and p47d11 and axis get a g6!
some info:
P47B....56th FG received june 42.MOVED TO ENGLAND january 1943 (this is the B not D :))
P47D....END OF 1943.
109f series was 1940 to 1942
109g series started in 1942 onwards
190a5 was early 1943, the A6 by june 1943,the A7 by december and the A8 in january 1944
so what period is this supposed to represent?
if its mid 1943 then there should not only be no p47D's but also no B26s as there were only 'marauder 1A's in north africa in Nov 1942 and no mention of b26s in Euro theatre until the italy/sicily invasions.I know we dont have 190a6/a7 but we are again facing aircraft of later years.LETS not mention the ju88 eh?.If we have the p47d's and b17G's they 'at best' are late 1943 early 1944(14th october 1943 the b17s in use were b17E's and B17F's which both had no chin MGs and were vulnerable to HO attacks.this is why the G was called for as loses on this raid were very high) I think the LW should have what they had in late 1943-44 namely the 190a8 (jan 1944).
then we have period 4: THE MASSACRE OF LW YEARS more like:
P38L......1944 (late?)
P47D11....late 43(best)-early 1944
P47D25....later than d11 i presume, so 1944
P51B......first operational use in europe 13th dec 1943 all p51s before were alison type
P51D......1944 (late?)
B17g......1944 (early?)
well if its late 1944 LW should have available the 109K series the 190A8-F8 were out from jan1944 and mid 44 respectively and the 190D9 was just enteringservice in late 1944-early 45.
If we have these planesets please give each side what they had at the time.
From what i can see for the majority of these sections the LW have planes that are 6 months to a year behind the allies when in fact this to-and-thro of one side gaining advantage then losing it is poorly represented!.In MA i didnt really care as there were alsorts flying around BUT in CT I want it HOW IT WAS.Not some fantasy matchup with me flying my 1943 planes against USAAF 1944 types.
Ive had enough of that in the MA.So please reshuffle those a bit?
for example arado (operational 10th july 1944)
Ta152 (november 1944)
perk them if you feel they shouldnt have been there in numbers, by all means, BUT give us the chance to fly them ok?
the current matchups IMHO give allies advantages from section 2 onwards and i think it should swap back and forth more.lets learn what the later models meant in improvements? the p38s were a lot less powerfull at first than the P38L as were P51s with the alison engines etc.
I realise planesets restrict choice but if you are going to add a p38L in place of an earlier version then do the same for the other side.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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Originally posted by hazed-:
P47B....56th FG received june 42.MOVED TO ENGLAND january 1943 (this is the B not D :))
P47D....END OF 1943.
Bzzt! Incorrect! The 56th deployed to England with brand new P-47Cs. By June of 1943, the first P-47Ds were available. There really isn't much difference in between the early P-47D variants, so the -11 is a good catch all early jug, especially since it doesn't have a paddle-blade prop.
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It's '43.
P-47D-11 is playing the role of all 1943 P-47's in the ETO. B-26 is the only Allied twin engine bomber we have. England-based B-26's were operating over Europe constantly from May 1943 until the end of the war. Neither the Jug nor the Marauder we have are significantly better than what the Allies actually had in 1943.
Overlord represents the Spring and Summer 1944. Starting at the point when the 2nd TAF and 9th AF started really hammering the Continent. You'll notice the USAAF gets Mustangs WELL AFTER they were actually in service. ;)
Invasion of Germany is Fall and Winter 1944-45. Maybe not the best title. It probably should be "Invasion Of Europe Other Than France" but that's too long. :) P-38L was virtually identical to a late P-38J.
Final Days is Spring 1945. We'll probably see more Ar 234s and Ta 152's in use than were ever in use at any one time during WW2. If you have evidence that Ta 152's were assigned to any combat unit before the Spring of 1945, you should present it.
You can nitpick exact dates all you want. The fact remains that the timelines are accurate whenever possible, and if anything the substitutions are biased towards the Luftwaffe.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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well then re read your books on what LW planes should be available!
if the p47D11 is 'representing' earlier models then DO THE SAME FOR THE OTHER SIDE PLEASE.
1943 190a5,190a6,190a7 were available.
nearest we have is the 190a8 so ill take that thanks.
in the red corner.........p47d11 (representing an earlier less powerful version)
in the BLUE corner..........Fw190a8 (representing fw190a6/a7)
lets get ready to rumble!
this isnt nit picking funked ..i just dont agree and neither do my references in books, with 'some' not all of these choices.
3.8th airforce arrives
USAAF
p47d11-representing earlier p47s
B17G-representing B17E-Fs (no chin guns)
LW
190a5- representing 190a6/a7 (both of whom had same loadout options as 190a8)
this is really my main concern and bearing in mind the LW get nothing really new in this period I think it would be in the best interest of all concerned to introduce the 190a8 to give the LW something to tackle the d11 with.
The USAAF STILL get an entire period with the p51d (overlord)which will absolutely rule the skies, just as it did for nearly a year in AH before HTC introduced the dora in MA.
Im sorry but i dont see this as an unreasonable request.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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That's not a bad point. Not much difference at all between Fw 190A-6 and A-8. Pyro has made a few changes from what I initially requested, and I hope he makes that one.
I wish we had an earlier P-47, an earlier P-38, some earlier USAAF/RAF bombers, a Fw 190A-2, a Bf 109G with MW 50, a Ju 188 etc.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Originally posted by hazed-:
well then re read your books on what LW planes should be available!
if the p47D11 is 'representing' earlier models then DO THE SAME FOR THE OTHER SIDE PLEASE.
1943 190a5,190a6,190a7 were available.
Sounds like a good idea. I'm all for it, if the substituted plane is a good match as the -11 is for the early Ds and C jugs.
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Hazed I edited a bunch, didn't realize you were reading the board at the time. Sorry about that.
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lol same here funked :)
its kinda surreal aint it :)
btw the p38g (1,325-hp) p38j (1425-hp) p38L (1475-hp)(combat rated 1600-hp at 26,500ft)
however small we must remember the differences.Also the P38L was the first to have 5in rockets available.
I know im getting pedantic but THATS THE LW's GREATEST WEAPON!!! :D hehe
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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PS LW gets G-10 to fight the Mustangs. And make no mistake, Mustangs did dominate the LW for a significant period before (and after) the Dora was introduced. With unperked G-10's everywhere, I doubt this will be the case in our arena.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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B-17G is bothersome. It would be nice to have a B-17F. But G's were in production in July '43 and in service with the 8th AF in the Fall. And again the overall capability of the plane doesn't change, just an extra couple of guns up front. I didn't think that was enough to warrant the omission of the Fort from the late-43 plane set. As a LW, I think you'd be salivating to get a crack at the Dicke Autos anyway. :)
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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agreed funked. the P51 did dominate the LW for that period but there were less and less LW in the air as we pressed into germany not least because of the fuel shortages.
BUT in AH there is no shortage,there is no lack of pilots, or for that matter there is no huge numbers to sway things.
If in WW2 the germans had as many doras as the USAAF had p51ds would things have been different? :)
this is what id like to find out :)
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We WILL find out. :)
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S! all
The fact is, with the current planeset, the only period which can be simulated correctly is Approximately June `44 to the end. And even then, we are missing a lot of the twin engined aircraft available, most notably the Me110G, Me410.
Until we get the Spit IX LF, 110G, 410, P-38J, the 109G6 with MW-50 and a P-47 Razorback with paddle blade we can`t do the most intense period of combat, which was January to May `44.
That`s the way it is.
As far as the D11 and when the USAAF pilot got their D model Jugs:
The USAAF Groups were equipped with P-47C`s in November of `42. But they saw no combat for a long time, spending their time in training. The first combat mission flown by P-47 equipped USAAF Fighter groups was in April `43. That was in P-47C`s. They did not fly another mission until a month later. By that time the first D models were arriving and the existing C`s were being converted to D spec. By July of `43, the groups were re-equipped with either D models or C models which had been upgraded.
The P-47B was never flown in Europe. It equipped the 56th FG in New York State when they were in training there. These planes were left behind when the 56th shipped out to England.
The D11 we have here is closer to the real `47`s seen in `43. It isn`t the same as the Razorbacks seen December to June `44 because it doesn`t have the Paddleblade. It is 300lbs underweight according to HTC.
The solution is to model the D11 with the correct weight, and two options for the prop. One with paddle blade, one without.
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S!
Another point if I wanted to nitpick....
The FW190D9 was not equipped with MW-50 until January of `45. This was due to a shortage of the kits. Until then they had lower performance.
But of course, here the 190D9 arrives in August `44 with MW-50. ;)
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where do you get august 44 from buzz?
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S!
About the P-51b dominating the Germans:
This would be in the period of December `43 to May `44. Lineups for Fighters on the USAAF side and the Luftwaffe side were as follows:
USAAF:
P-47D Razorback with Water injection and Paddle blade prop.
P-51b
P-38J
Luftwaffe:
109G6 (most common)
109G6 with MW-50 (less common)
109G6 with GM-1 Nitrous injection (less common)
190A6 (Similar to A5)
190A7 (Essentially similar to A8 but without GM-1)
190A8
The uprated Me109 which was designated G10 wasn`t available until approx. May `44. The FW190D9 wasn`t out until Aug. `44.
So you can see that at the altitudes where the fighting was occurring, ie. between 20,000 and 30,000 feet, the USAAF aircraft available were significantly superior.
This period, January to May `44, saw huge casualties on the part of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force. Most of the experienced pilots were killed. After June `44, the Luftwaffe comprised a few experience Flight and Staffel leaders and a lot of very Green new pilots.
As the new Luftwaffe aircraft arrived, (G10, K4, D9) the technical difference was eliminated, but the pilot quality difference was too great to overcome.
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Yes buzz youre right BUT again i say...
In AH there is no shortage of experienced pilots,no shortage of fuel and the Allies will not have numerical superiority.
We should see a very difficult struggle in all theatres unless we are going to handicap the Axis as they were in the Real battles(eg green troops,less available aircraft,less fuel)
How are we going to do it? historically?,in which case we must make certain LW aircraft expensive perks to simulate their lack of availability.
or are we going to replay the whole thing with equal sides and equal production/availability etc?
BTW FUNKED how can we go about putting the 190a8 into the present CT ???? you seemed to agree it would be fair.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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S! Hazed
This would be my opinion:
We already have perked aircraft, which change with each planeset. That should stay the same.
Next you fill the map with targets which reflect the historical realities. These targets were generally supply related in most situations.
And you assign victory points to the destruction of these targets, as well as penalizing with supply shortages the side which lets its targets get destroyed.
If we are talking NorthWest Europe, say pre-D-Day invasion, the following realities were in effect which would affect the design of a Scenario:
The Allies wanted to get ashore and create a second front. To do this they had to weaken the German Atlantic Wall defences. The way they did this historically was to destroy the supply infrastructure which supported and moved the German troops which would resist an invasion. This was primarily the French Railnet. Between January and June '44, the Allied Tactical Airforces (Medium bombers, and Fighter bombers) destroyed a large percentage of the German and French Rail Rolling stock, and severly damaged the Rail marshalling yards which supported and repaired the Rail system. When the invasion came, the Germans in the Front lines were way behind in creating defences, lower on Fuel and Ammo supply than they wanted to be, plus the Panzer reinforcements which were intended to be sent to the beaches to drive the invasion into the sea were unable to use the Rail system, and had very little fuel. Plus they were under constant attack as they moved up to the front. They got there way too late and the Allied buildup proceeded faster than the Germans could put their defences in place.
We could simulate this in a historical setup by creating Rail lines in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany, and having the destruction of Trains affect supply and victory points.
At the same time as they did this with the tactical airforces, the Allies targeted the German Fuel production centers. The idea was, if the Germans can't get to the battlefield by train, they'll have to drive. No fuel, no fight. The Allied Heavy Bombers escorted by long range fighters, went after these targets. That forced the Germans to defend them, and the resulting battles ended with USAAF dominance.
We could simulate this by placing the Factory and City targets in the appropriate historical locations, making them targets of importance which affect supply, and placing a victory point value on them. The Allies would have to destroy or damage enough at one time so that they reached a victory point level. Repair would be slow, but if the Allies didn't keep up the pressure, the facilities would be back up.
The Germans would win by preventing the Allied victory conditions.
I would also restrict the use of Heavy bombers in this. I know it's heresy to say, but I wouldn't allow B17's or Lancasters to hit Airfields, Vehicle Bases, Rail lines or other tactical targets which historically the Heavies didn't have the accuracy to take out. Those would be strictly targets for the Mediums and FighterBombers, as they were historically.
The Scenario would go for a Week or two. At the end of the period, the points would be totalled and a victory declared.
I think it would also be a good idea to have players intending to participate to pre-register on the side they want to fly. And they would only be able to fly that side.
Also, the balance in a Scenario like this would be better a little in the Allied favour. It is always easier to defend than attack. And the Allied would be flying a lot of bombers and Fighter bombers.
Probably 55% Allied, 45% German.
But you could also just leave it up to the players to decide.
You could also give Germans targets which they had to hit. (Hitler was always insisting the Luftwaffe bomb England)
Maybe they'd have to hit targets in Southhampton and London. City targets. If they didn't hit them, they'd lose victory points. (Hitler would send the Commanders to a posting in Norway... lol)
Plus there were British Convoys running from Southhampton Southwest through the Channel out to the Convoy routes to the U.S. and Canada. The Germans could have them as targets.
And there were German Convoys in the area of the Scheldt Estuary and Holland which the Allies could hit.
Lots of possibilities. :)
If you want a really detailed scenario have a look at my Med Scenario posting, ("Combat Theater Lovers...") which I posted on the Combat Theater board too.
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Hazed I don't have any control over it. I can only hope Pyro will modify it. He has already made some changes to what I posted originally, maybe he'll make this one also.
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so... we have the 'Final Days of the Reich' in there right now?
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There will be no final days untill teh Tank is in there :D