Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: -ammo- on February 13, 2003, 04:56:27 PM
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Next time someone says that there should not be any killshooter code in the MA, please read this...http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16003
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Wow! Reading that thread convinces me they have porked their game!
curly
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Yep. Last time I flew a WB arena with no killshooter, we ended up spending more time policing teamkillers than actually fighting the enemy.
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heh, I dont think anyone(who has actually put thought into it) wants killshooter removed, just changed.
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Guess it is time for me to cancel my $9.95/mo. Warbirds account. Al hope is lost.
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How about this, just something that can be built on or totally rejected . Killshooter is on for new ppl. After that it's off but you don't get credit for the friendly fire kill. Then you get penalized a certain amount of time (you're grounded when you land) which goes up if you kill more friendlies. During this time you can't switch countries and relogging won't affect the time penalty.
OR..... Both planes/vehicles take damage.
Ohhh how about turning collisions on once in the air after say 1 minute and umm hmm how can ya tell an intentional ram from an unintentional one? Ok that one needs help... :confused:
Just some ideas, now let's see what I missed as I can't possibly see every perspective. :)
Personally I prefer the "both planes/vehicles take damage" scenario.
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I have put alot of thought into it and think that the KS is a neccessity. Now that does not mean that I am right:). But I do not wish hat a friendly could actually damage my AC or kill me becuase of an accident or purposely. I also think that KS works well as it is, at least it makes you think before you start spraying out ammo through a cloud of friendly and enemy AC.
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i'd much like it if killshooter caused damage to *both* shooter (10x) and shootee (normal).
that'd make people think 2x, because yuo'd had miffed off shootee's making sure that kind of stuff doesn't happen.
might even reduce the conga lines as people realize they just may take damage and peel off.
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I agree with you ammo I go out of my way not to steal kills, and if you see me chasing an enemy plane I'm in front of the pack, I ask if a friendly needs help instead of just engaging, I try to clear ppl's 6's.
So I was doing pretty good with killshooter until last night. I'm chasing this plane, he's maneuvering and I'm the only one on him when I engaged. A minute or so into the fight I hear other planes around me I know they're all friendly but I'm confident that I have the clear advantage and position. I've also put some rounds into the plane so the other planes know I'm there and I'm the only one that has done so.
At d300 and closing I have a clear shot of the nme at dead 12, slight bank, 1G shot, I open fire then a "friendly" plane drops into mine from above and I clip his wing (saw 2 hit sprites) and down I go while he goes on flying and probably got the kill. That just pissed the heck outa me.
Maybe I just needed to vent and remember not to furball :D
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The only thing wrong with killshooter is the lethality... it needs to be reduced.. a alot.
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wow. buff tuff sounds facinating.
They sound like the game is in early beta.
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Originally posted by wetrat
The only thing wrong with killshooter is the lethality... it needs to be reduced.. a alot.
Agreed. The problem isnt any kind of damage multiplier, but that ALL k/s damage is applied to the tail of your plane. (5 .50 bullets will completly shear off the tail of any fighter)
Any shots hitting a friendly fighter should have the damage halved, and be applied to the same spot on your plane that it hit the friendly plane. In the cases where there is no equivalent places(such as hitting a 2 engine plane when you only have one, or hitting a GV while you're in an aircraft) should be applied to the most similar item(i..e hitting engine 2 on a multi-engined friendly will dammage engine 1 on your single-engine plane) In situations where there is no analog, THEN damage can be applied to a specific point.
Then the damage should be halved again, and applied to the friendly. (for a total of 25% hitting the friendly)
Also, KS should be completly disabled for rockets and bombs. If only to promote people actually using them.
KS Encounters should serve as a warning, they should end in parts being damaged, not instant death for a single round that hit some friendly hidden below you.
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innominate-
I am with you all the way up to the point where the friendly AC in front of the "perpetraitor" takes damage, whether it be a smaller percentage of not. Why should that person pay for the others mistake? Now I can see some bemnefit to that in an event, but in a place as chaotic as the MA? I can't agree with that.
While I do think that the lethality of killshooter should or can be reduced, I think as long as the effect remains then it is functional.
just my measly 2 cents.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Now I can see some bemnefit to that in an event, but in a place as chaotic as the MA?
Most killshooter incidents are both players fault, not just the shooter as many like to pretend. Perhaps 25% is too much to inflict on the hit player(The shooter should ALWAYS die well before the person who got shot, who should probably never see actual damage)
Most killshooter instances happen in conga lines, or in kill-steal attempts. Situations where BOTH players involved did something they shouldnt have.
Though, hurting the friendly who got shot isnt all that important, it would just be a nice bonus. Since virtually every time I die to k/s is because of some la7 or 190 dork crawling up my low six, popping up under my nose after my bullets are already in the air. Admittidly it's rare, but nevertheless annoying as hell.
With or without the damage to the other friendly, the effective lethality of k/s needs to be reduced.
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killshooter off! thats all the 12 year olds in this game need(and those of us like myself who act like they are 12!)
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KS is off in Warbirds!
Man, I guess its time to finally renew my account (after 3 years).
I'm gona go kill me some friendlies and piss everyone off too!
(Don't worry ammo, I'll hold my fire on you though :) )
eskimo
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I participated in a WW1 sim where the first 10 rounds registered on the target (10 wasn't enough to kill him), but after 10 rounds, it killed the shooter instantly.
I didn't like it that way ... it took 30 something rounds to fatally damage a wing and with 10 rounds in a wing, you were 1/3 of the way there.
We cannot have it so that a friendly can damage a friendly. No way.
If we turn kill shooter off, we'll have friendlies shooting through us to the target. Channel 1 would go ballistic.
I like kill shooter just the way it is.
curly
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I'm all for just having the lethality reduced in killshooter, that'll help tons in reducing the frustration level in those rare instances where it's not entirely the shooter's fault. It'll also serve as a reminder(for me anyway) to stay away from those types of fights.
IMO those lines of friendlies chasing a con needs to be dealt with. People who KNOW that they have more speed and are in absolutely no danger of getting damaged as they charge out into the lead and more often than not, into the line of fire of the former lead plane(s), still need a reminder. Any suggestions?
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Leave KS as it is. If you accidently hit a friendly EVEN if you worked hard for an honest kill and EVEN if he just wants to steal it, just bad luck. I can live with that.
Been flying for half a year now, shot a friendly only once (accidently, I died instantly) but can imagine the amount of abuse I would have caused by killing a friendly unintentionally. Don't want that.
I've seen too many gangbangs, KS is a blessing then, not a hindrance. I fully believe things would get massively out of hand (as can be judged form the Warbirds example) if KS was switched off. Not only the side switchers, but the arguments between friendlies would be to much to bear.
And to top it all off, I also have encountered new players shouting abuse at me and threatening to shoot me down. Sure enough, a friendly on my 6 firing... KS, don't even touch it.
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Originally posted by hogenbor
Leave KS as it is. If you accidently hit a friendly EVEN if you worked hard for an honest kill and EVEN if he just wants to steal it, just bad luck. I can live with that.
Been flying for half a year now, shot a friendly only once (accidently, I died instantly) but can imagine the amount of abuse I would have caused by killing a friendly unintentionally. Don't want that.
I've seen too many gangbangs, KS is a blessing then, not a hindrance. I fully believe things would get massively out of hand (as can be judged form the Warbirds example) if KS was switched off. Not only the side switchers, but the arguments between friendlies would be to much to bear.
And to top it all off, I also have encountered new players shouting abuse at me and threatening to shoot me down. Sure enough, a friendly on my 6 firing... KS, don't even touch it.
We just flew a week-long scenario in the CT with killshooter off (Finn-Russo). We had no major issues whatsoever. I believe there was one case where a guy switched sides to try and exact some revenge by sneaking up on his tormentor while having a green icon... Didn't work, he flubbed it and still got popped. LOLOLOL
I only shot down one friendly intentionally, and only because he didn't care if he hit other friendlies, including me... I did, however, bag 3 friendlies with 5" naval gun fire when they decided to pursue attacking aircraft into the ack umbrella, despite being warned via text and vox that 5" shells don't discriminate. None of them complained, having accepted the risk. I lost a plane to friendly ship ack too. It's a risk you take, and it's much closer to reality as well.
Seriously, we had almost no problems with killshooter off, and virtually everyone liked the setup that way. We policed ourselves by killing offenders, which DID count towards one's score. Even so, there were very few offenders. I'm for leaving killshooter off for all CT setups. We also had one setup with friendly field protection turned off. You could accidentally kill you own strats and buildings. However, a few "gamers" took advantage of that by upping a tank for the Knits, kill his own base while a squadmate, flying Bish, brought in troops... Brady had to change the setup to end that sort of stuff.
However, in the MA with the proliferation of dedicated "gamers", I think turning off killshooter would create massive mayhem. Kill friendlies to fatten one's score, switch sides and do it again... That sort of nonsense. It's much easier to get lost in a crowd of 500+, than in 40 as we usually have in the CT.
My regards,
Widewing
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If it ain't broke (and it ain't) then don't fix it.
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That thread made interesting reading. Those IEN guys are idiots. PLayers are even defending their right to shoot friendlies. Oh yeah, I want to play THAT game (not).
(I sure hope that zabatt guy stays over there though) :)
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I'm one of the guys who flys Warbirds who'd prefer never to see killshooter turned on, and it also might interest you guys to know that we've had killshooter off for about a year or so in the WWII Arena, and there have been few incidents that warrent notice.
Of course there will always be the occasional love muffin that will deliberately kill a friendly, but I quite prefer not needing to be controlled any more than necessary. It also adds a bit of immersion by allowing friendly fire accidents, and doesn't reward the other love muffines who like to jump down in front of someone who's saddled up on a bandit and about to fire, or punish the guy who was saddled up. All in all, most of us prefer it to killshooter on. There is a small, very vocal minority who'd like to see it turned back on, but I suspect some of these may belong to the latter of the two types of love muffines described above. There's no evidence that turning it on is at all needed, and I can think of, at most, 3 to 4 incidents in the last year that would even make one consider it. For the most part (probably 99% of the time), when someone dies to friendly fire it's due to the fog or war, or purely accidental. Not bad for an online game. Of course I don't feel AH would be able to turn it off. Too many players to police themselves as Warbirds has been able to.
By the way, when AH gets the new WWII arena open, where there's a strat layer in place and more of a point to Aces High, I'm going to give it another whirl.
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Just wanted to add....what's the point of killshooter? If you don't want friendlies to be able to shoot friendlies down, just turn off friendly damage, rather than have it "bounce" back into the person who pulled the trigger. Seems more like a sick joke than anything else.
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With the sheer numbers of players we have in our primary areana, kill shooter is a necessity. Even if there were to be only 1 jerk in every 100 - due to the simple math of it AH has jerks in the air at any given moment, where in WB you can get lucky and that 1 in 100 might not be logged on.
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Originally posted by Stickman
Just wanted to add....what's the point of killshooter? If you don't want friendlies to be able to shoot friendlies down, just turn off friendly damage, rather than have it "bounce" back into the person who pulled the trigger. Seems more like a sick joke than anything else.
well, i, for one, would only rather see 3 guys in a conga line spraying my 6 and risking killshooter than 6 guys all spraying on my 6 without fear.
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I'd like to see killshooter tied in with Vehicle Malfunctions.
With Severity related to Time, and FF Incidents. With Malfunctions cumulatively getting worse.
For Example a 1 sec isolated FF burst might cause a gun to jam. Another incident might burnout your gunsight. Maybe a repeat offender's Rudder could jam, or a violent Engine Malfunction.
Some of the best play i've experienced is with Freindly Fire on. However some of the worst experiences have been there too.
Darn Griefers!
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Originally posted by Widewing
We just flew a week-long scenario in the CT with killshooter off (Finn-Russo). We had no major issues whatsoever. I believe there was one case where a guy switched sides to try and exact some revenge by sneaking up on his tormentor while having a green icon... Didn't work, he flubbed it and still got popped. LOLOLOL
I only shot down one friendly intentionally, and only because he didn't care if he hit other friendlies, including me... I did, however, bag 3 friendlies with 5" naval gun fire when they decided to pursue attacking aircraft into the ack umbrella, despite being warned via text and vox that 5" shells don't discriminate. None of them complained, having accepted the risk. I lost a plane to friendly ship ack too. It's a risk you take, and it's much closer to reality as well.
Seriously, we had almost no problems with killshooter off, and virtually everyone liked the setup that way. We policed ourselves by killing offenders, which DID count towards one's score. Even so, there were very few offenders. I'm for leaving killshooter off for all CT setups. We also had one setup with friendly field protection turned off. You could accidentally kill you own strats and buildings. However, a few "gamers" took advantage of that by upping a tank for the Knits, kill his own base while a squadmate, flying Bish, brought in troops... Brady had to change the setup to end that sort of stuff.
However, in the MA with the proliferation of dedicated "gamers", I think turning off killshooter would create massive mayhem. Kill friendlies to fatten one's score, switch sides and do it again... That sort of nonsense. It's much easier to get lost in a crowd of 500+, than in 40 as we usually have in the CT.
My regards,
Widewing
I, too, spent some time in the CT with ks off. I thought it was fantastic. I remember flying one sortie and pulling a deflection shot on a Russian plane. Unfortunately, my lead was miscalculated and the 30mm round landed squarely in the nose of a friendly. I felt absolutely terrible and apologized profusely.
My tactics completely changed after that. No longer did I go for the near-impossible lead shots but worked into a better position, and gave way if another teammate had the obvious advantage. There were no conga lines present because everyone was communicating position to other friendlies.
I'm all for shutting down killshooter. Yes, I understand there will be whining and complaining about how some jerks are going to just fire through you, or others will just switch sides to kill friendlies.
This will happen. There is no doubt. However, implementation of a "grounded" time or banning repeat offenders, etc., etc. will help alleviate the problem and things will eventually balance.
YMMV.
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well, i, for one, would only rather see 3 guys in a conga line spraying my 6 and risking killshooter than 6 guys all spraying on my 6 without fear.
I'm for that:)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Yep. Last time I flew a WB arena with no killshooter, we ended up spending more time policing teamkillers than actually fighting the enemy.
when and in what arena? ive flown historical arena where killshooters off
for 2+ years and seen intentional team killing only 2 or 3 times.
team killing is rare thus the furious thread happened.
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The only times I have been affected by killshooter are when someone pulls in front of me while I'm firing (happened alot when I had tracers off) or when dropping ordinance.
Last night while dropping bombs on an nme town I warned people on vox and text to get clear, yet somene ignored the warning and came in as I released (he was under me so I couldn't see him), when my bomb exploded so did I.
If you don't want people shooting friendlies just turn off damage to ALL planes from friendly fire. To many just don't care if YOU go down in flames from your own bullets.
There are advantages and disadvantages to any system used to discouraged *blue on blue* incidents. With friendly fire damage turned off you would see more people spraying *through* friendlies trying to get the kill. Is that *worse* than having someone on your low 6 (where you can't see them) blow past you right into your tracer fire?
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
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Originally posted by Widewing
However, in the MA with the proliferation of dedicated "gamers", I think turning off killshooter would create massive mayhem. Kill friendlies to fatten one's score, switch sides and do it again... That sort of nonsense. It's much easier to get lost in a crowd of 500+, than in 40 as we usually have in the CT.
Widewing
That's the point I'm trying to make.
Let's just say that my regard for the human race has'n't exactly gone up since I play AH and reading the posts here.
With a dedicated player base like in the CT you have a point (but no one is there when I am online).
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Killshooter been debated into the ground.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=75909&highlight=killshooter
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=75077&highlight=killshooter
Every single night you see guys shooting at friendlies, god help us if their bullets were to start hitting. Nobody yet has come up with a better solution. You will never see the MA without killshooter on, it works.
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"Yep. Last time I flew a WB arena with no killshooter, we ended up spending more time policing teamkillers than actually fighting the enemy. "
I'd like to know when this was also...In the entire time I've flown Warbirds with killshooter set to off, I can only actually remember 2 incidents personally, and have been told of 1 or 2 more. All the events I've flown in were killshooter off and, while there have been friendly fire incidents, none were intentional, unless you consider confusion intentional. One incident during an Target for Tonight event involved a very good friend of mine from Australia who opened fire on and shot down a friendly bomber after confusing it for an enemy aircraft. I've never shot down a friendly, though a few have accidentally gotten a ping or two when I couldn't let go trigger quick enough. I've also received damage from and been shot down a couple of times by friendlies a couple of times, but they were all purely accidental and there were no hard feelings or harsh words.
Please state what arena this occured in, your handle, the handle of those doing the intentional friendly firiing, and about how long ago it was.
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Why dumb-down a flight-sim? Isn’t it supposed to be something relatively close to realism? I just don’t believe you AH guys DON’T have killshooter off:). I can understand the necessity to keep it on, but It just seems backwards to me to have it in the first place. Yeah it was easier in WB when KS was on, but I must say I love the fact that it’s off...and I’ve never even hit a friendly in any of the mad airbattles I’ve been in. I think friendly collisions should be coded as well, too, though, so just call me crazy.
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I just don’t believe you AH guys DON’T have killshooter off
EnVY it should be fairly obvious from the post on AGW why killshooter should be on.
You have old grizzled vets over there killing friendlies for cripes sakes. It's a silly idea.
I might add that tearing yourselves apart over it is sad, and even sillier...
Done both, don't see the "hook" of what makes it sooooooo much better.. I never notice it one way or another, I take my finger off the trigger..
For the CT it's a welcome addition and works well. Lower population and a common reason for flying there. The HA of old.
With over 500 in the main don't you think it "might" cause a problem ??
I mean to say that with a WB Main with a population a tad above the census in the CT here..
And you guyz can't get it together ??
..and spend the next week rippin what's left of the community apart ??
For a nerdy realism quirk ?????
It's so sad it's funny, but doesn't surprise me.
Add 500 to the equation...
Really doesn't take a lot of thought...
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KS works. leave it.
the mention of non-lethal rounds to friendlies: this would create a situation where a lot of people would just spray and pray (worse than it is now) because they wouldn't worry.. if rounds hit NME cool.. if they hit a friendly, no biggie.. they'd just hold the trigger down.
KS works.
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I just read the AGW thread. It seems that when stupid people get what they ask for, it doesn't make them happy.
Hooligan
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Like I said, I can see the necessity to leave it on in AH....
You wont find me throwin .50 rounds at one of my squaddies thats for sure.
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Heya EnVy-
my fellow Jug flying dweeb.
I just don't think with the chaos of the AH MA and the maturity level of some of the players that a lack KS code would work, as you seem to agree. However, if it works for WB's, then more power to IEN and the WB's community.
BTW, as Daff or Crutch would tell you, any 56 FG member from WB's has a standing invitation with the 63 FS here in AH.
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One other thing,
Killshooter shouldn't apply to squadmates.
Dammit if they're in my squad, I should be able to shoot them down!
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Lololol, so some 11-year-old wants to, "make a point,"...who cares. KS doesn't seem all that bad now...
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ammo
Crutch is gettin us in good shape, especially recently. Must admit, it would be nice to fill out the ranks of the JUG drivers, though.
I believe KS does work for the most part in WB, though obviously loose cannons(pun intended) can be found. If our numbers were as high as AH I'm sure there would be some changes.
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Exact reason why I dropped my WB account about 6 months ago.
RPS, and lousy gameplay with low numbers.
Hajo
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I have put alot of thought into it and think that the KS is a neccessity. Now that does not mean that I am right:). But I do not wish hat a friendly could actually damage my AC or kill me becuase of an accident or purposely. I also think that KS works well as it is, at least it makes you think before you start spraying out ammo through a cloud of friendly and enemy AC.
Is that right.....:D
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The only logical course as I see it is to leave it exactly as it is.
Killshooter simply creates more problems than it's worth. I get
PO'd when a shoulder shooter steals my kill, and some sorties
I'll get only assists - but other sorties . . . It all works out in the
end.
Funny, the WB3 thread highlighted most of the reasons I fell
out of favor with IEN's game. Bufftuff - reduced lethality - and
a mushy control system made mushy to reduce stick stirring.
AH now is more like Wb was when it started - just plain fun.
Don't change a thang.
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I can see many of the reasons for wanting to leave WB for greener shores. I myself have found a great deal of fun in it, and have no reason to leave. For the most part it has a great bunch of guys in there, and with several of iEN's core leaving, to the promotion of several more inhouse guys, there has been a real shift in iEN's focus. We'll just see what this brings about...that's all i can say.
But a to you AH guys, at any rate.
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I have no problem with the killshooter per se, it prevents anarchy. However, it's current settings are way too unforgiving. It should take close to the number of rounds into a friendly to kill you as the number of rounds it takes to kill the enemy.
Tara52nd