Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ra on December 22, 2000, 09:13:00 PM
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This is not a Hog-C rant. I've been flying the 2 Hogs lately to get ready for carrier ops and I notice that they need LEFT rudder during takeoff and climb. What's up with that?
ra
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its that all planes have torque effects screwed-they have been severely turned down from 1.03-, starting from the Hog and the tiffie ,going thru all the planeset and ending in the P38.
(I include in the "torque" definition all hte 5 effects of the spinning propeller)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-22-2000).]
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Hmm, that's not what I notice when I take off.
I didn't test all planes, but when I tried the ones you mention, I needed right rudder in the planes, except the typhoon (and yak) who need ledt.
P38 didn't need either.
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Maybe it's my rudder calibration, I need to use about 1/2 left trim while flying the Hog.
ra
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Nope, I tested offline in F3 view from a few feet back so I could watch the rudder. I started the engine and hit full power and WEP with my feet off the rudder pedals. The plane accellerated with a slight pull the the right so I corrected with a little left rudder. After tucking up the gear I hit auto climb and the rudder settled a few degrees left of center. This is not right. I knew torque(etc.) was under-modeled, but I didn't know it was anti-modeled.
ra
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I tryed this also , hmmm .
When in Combat Trim you have to use right rudder when building speed (just like Snefens said) for most of the runway (full gas and 2 1000 lbs bombs) then at the very end used a little left when lifting off .
Next I tried it with Combat Trim off and all trims centered . Yep ra was just like you stated , had to use just a little left rudder on take off .
I other words , I had to use more rudder to get off the deck with Combat Trim on .
spro
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ive gotten lazy anymore. I just use the autotakeoff and point it in the direction i want to climbout....meanwhile go to the kitchen, fix coffee, bathroom...chase kids (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just saying though that while i agree with the torque issue, it aint a biggie with me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ammo
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I never use combat trim.
It feels weird having to constantly hold left rudder while flying the Hog. If you watch footage of F4U's taking off from carriers you can see the rudder is almost full to the right.
I hope we get torque back so planes like the P-38 can exploit their strengths. It may make stallfights more realistic too.
I'm beginning to see a need for easymode. If HTC is afraid of making the FM too demanding, an easymode may be the way to allow veteran players the realism they want while not scaring off the newbies. Create an easymode with no torque, a limited maximum AoA, and a 5 1/2 G limit. This would make an easier but restricted FM for newbies. I don't know why everyone went postal the last time HTC mentioned the possibility of an easymode.
ra
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No Combat trim when I tested either.
Don't look at the rudder to see if it's centered, open up the joystick menu. When I did this test I found that my rudder actually is not centered when untouched. I needed to put a ever so gently pressure on one of the pedals to keep it completely centered (this is just for my setup of course, but someone might have it similar).
I only centered my rudder and looked what happend when I posted first. They would all swing to the left (except typh, yak and p38)
I didn't test it at about 150 mph, but it is true that when speed has built up I need to put a little left rudder.
Also remove the wind. This might be obvious, but it could have slipped.
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I re-calibrated my rudder pedals so it was perfectly centered, and that got rid of part of the problem. The Hog pulled a bit to the left during a WEP start on the runway. But as soon as I reached flying speed it started needing left rudder. So during most of the flight I needed to keep quite a bit of left trim to keep the ball centered, even during a WEP climbout at 160mph. It required about as much left trim during flight as the Tiffy or Yak.
The Yak and Tiffie both pulled right on takeoff, and needed left trim for climb. The P-38 could take off with no input except up elevator trim, staying lined up on the runway the whole time.
Simulate a carrier wave off by going to full power in the Hog just before landing (rudder and aileron trim centered). There is almost no tendency to torque roll. This means that the Hog handles too easily at low-speed hi-power flight, giving it an ability to stallfight better than it should. The other planes are probably the same way. IMHO more torque would make the FM more realistic, interesting, and challenging.
ra
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This means that the Hog handles too easily at low-speed hi-power flight, giving it an ability to stallfight better than it should. The other planes are probably the same way. IMHO more torque would make the FM more realistic, interesting, and challenging.
Yup. Possibly my biggest issue with 1.04 is the lack of realistic torque. The P-38 is unfairly handicapped because the 2000hp + monsters handle very sweetly at low speed/high AoA.
I cannot remember the last time a high powered aircraft snapped out on me in a low, slow fight.
Put back the torque and watch the complaints about the Nik, CHog etc magically disappear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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"I cannot remember the last time a high powered aircraft snapped out on me in a low, slow fight."
Try the G10 ;=)
Otherwise agree 100%
danish
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I agree that the current FM is lacking in torque modeling, IMO. I liked the more realistic torque modeling of the older releases as it made the flight sim a sheer enjoyment just to fly with or without combat. I have to admit that the more real it gets the more tiring it gets as well but I personally would rather see it realistic.
My uncle was a A-1 skyraider pilot during the Vietnam war. I let him try AH out and while trying to take off in a F4u1C, he crashed (he's old ok, its been 30 years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Reason why he crashed was by habbit, he applied full right rudder and not enough power so he danced around the field like the lawnmower man then did a 360 and broke the strut. Hum, he would have liked the torque modeling of the older releases.
-- senna
Originally posted by Jekyll:
Yup. Possibly my biggest issue with 1.04 is the lack of realistic torque. The P-38 is unfairly handicapped because the 2000hp + monsters handle very sweetly at low speed/high AoA.
I cannot remember the last time a high powered aircraft snapped out on me in a low, slow fight.
Put back the torque and watch the complaints about the Nik, CHog etc magically disappear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Does anyone in this thread have any documentation regarding rudder trim required on takeoff for a F4U?
I'll give you a hint. From the pilots manual for the F4U.
6 degrees nose right.
6 degrees right wing down.
Quote
"The left wing tends to be slightly heavy just as the airplane becomes airborne due to high torque reaction. If the aileron tab is set approxamately 6 degrees right wing down before start, and if the airplane is not lifted prematurely, this effect can be avoided."
This sounds very similar to the AH FM to me.
You should give Pyro more credit on these FM's. Remember, he has all of the pilots manuals and documention. He doesn't do this from what he heard on the history channel.
By contrast the required take off run for an F4U is much shorter than there land based counter parts. As well are the requirements for low speed handling more strict than a land based airplane.
For example the minimum take off runs with zero head wind, fully loaded.
F4U-1D= 680FT.
P-38L= 1350FT.
If it couldn't fly at low speed then taking off at this short a distance would be impossible.
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F4U,
If you are going to repeatedly inject fact into these discussions we are going to have to censure you! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Toad?
Eeeek!!
You found me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Just kidding.
I just hate when people interpret cliche as flight characteristic. I just read an artical in "Flight Magazine" about the gound looping of the F4F. I'm sure it did have high torque, compared to the SNJ trainers.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
From the pilots manual for the F4U.
6 degrees nose right.
6 degrees right wing down.
The main reason trim is used in any airplane is to reduce the amount of pressure that a pilot has to apply to flight controls for extended periods. Even with rudder trim applied, high powered airplanes need a lot of right rudder applied by the pilot at the beginning of the ground roll (assuming a single clockwise turning prop). Trimming the rudder relieves a portion of the forces required to hold the rudder pedal down (or any control) once the control surface becomes effective in the increasing airflow. It really helps during an extended climbout (personal experience) since your leg starts shaking from the constant pressure and strain.
I have stills and videos of carrier takeoffs that include F4U's. The rudder is deflected fully or almost fully to keep the airplane going straight down the deck. Thats a bootfull of rudder counteracting the p-factor, slipstream, gyro precession and torque effects. When I get back home next week, I'll post a scan.
MiG
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F4U,
Everybody knows about the 6 degrees of rudder trim in the F4U, just go to Zeno's and watch the training video. That's the main reason I think something is off.
AHT mentions that the recommended takeoff rudder trim setting was about right for climbout, in other words, 6 degrees of right trim would be right for climbout. That isn't cliche and I doubt Dean got it from watching the History Channel.
In AH the opposite happens, first you need a tiny bit of right rudder during takeoff, then you need quite a bit of left trim during climb.
ra
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Try it now with 1.05; nearly no torque at all! I thought I was flying a Yak for a minute when I got an F4U-D up. Thing needed quite a bit of left rudder. Funny part is I got a Typhoon off the ground WITHOUT using ANY rudder! Gotta get fixed, this is nuts.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
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Originally posted by flakbait:
Try it now with 1.05; nearly no torque at all! I thought I was flying a Yak for a minute when I got an F4U-D up. Thing needed quite a bit of left rudder. Funny part is I got a Typhoon off the ground WITHOUT using ANY rudder! Gotta get fixed, this is nuts.
I noticed the same thing...had to stomp the F6 to keep it centered (braked for full RPM/MP) on release...F4U had no reaction at all with neutral trim! (okay a little exagerated, it did ever so gently dip the left wing upon leaving the carrier deck.
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First, I fly fighters almost never.
Second, in 1.3 I could not and in 1.4 I could barely get a Corsair into the air with 1 DropTank from an airfield and had not yet landed it properly.
Third, last night I took off from a carrier in the main in both the Corsair and the Hellcat and landed both on the carrier.
Fourth, those are my first 2 carrier landings in any sim ever and the carrier was turning when I landed the Hellcat.
Fifth. fascinated by this thread, I grabbed a Corsair offline, loaded it with 100 fuel, rockets and 2 @1K bombs and guess what?
Yup, no torque and it lifted in about carrier length.
On liftoff the left wing dipped a bit.
I made 1 wide circle and landed with the full load still attached.
I was dissappointed to say the least, I really expected many failed attempts at carrier landings before I made it onto the deck.
We know 2 things:
1.HTC had to turn the difficulty down to keep the new players interested and 2. this post is way too long.
I vote HTC install FULL HARD and EASY and a TOGGLE switch.
I do not care how the guy I am fighting got his airplane into the air, as long as I got mine up the hard way.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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First on carrier takeoff's, I couldn't get an F4U off the deck with anything more than 50% fuel. TBM won't get off with almost any fuel and no ordinance and the Hellcat is a little better for me. I haven't tried online yet but I don't know if it would be better.
Second from AHT in the section on trimming.
quote
"The Corsair was easy to trim out for climb. Trim changes from landing gear and flap reaction were minimal, and those for speed and power changes were quite handleable. In a cruise condition the airplane could be trimmed for hands and feet off flying with little trouble."
I am not against a torque reaction in AH. I am against an unrealistic torque roll reaction at moderate speeds IE. 120 to 150MPH. A fully loaded F4U stalls at 100MPH no flap. A moderate F4U (in RL) stalls at about 70mph full flap. So seeing a torque roll in a light bird at 85mph would be wrong. Were as seeing it on a heavier bird at 100mph would accurate. As long as the reaction matches the weighted condition of the airplane, it should be reasonable and not so severe as to be difficult.
Also it is apparent that these reactions are reduced considerable if not eliminated by proper trim(combat trim in AH) and proper handling.
If this change was made it would also have to be across the board. Consider the FW190 which has 1750HP and 197sq ft of wing area.
It has 78% of the horsepower but only 63% of the wing area to counter the torque reaction as compared to the F4U. The Yak and Me-109G10 would be even worse in this regard. This would be a major change to the AH FM and I'm not sure for the better.
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Found out that if you re-calibrate your stick torque effects come back. Might wanna check your stick in the little preview window under Joystick. Mine was having rudder problems, so I re-calibrated it. All of a sudden the Tiffe got torque back! Darn thing nearly gave me whiplash!
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
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I got new rudder peds for xmas, CH Pros USB.
Before I had a twist stick. Once I got the peds calibrated and working I noticed that I had to input MUCH more rudder control on takeoff for the Tyffie and Hog than I ever noticed with the twiststick. Just a thought.
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Milo
3./JG2
"Swager's Angels"