Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on September 20, 2010, 07:17:13 PM
-
Anyone questioning the Tiger in Game really needs to watch this show.
According to the veterans interviewed. the tiger should be able to fire accurately at twice the range of a T34.
According to a russian tank commander
"the T-34 was accurate up to 500 meters. While the Tiger could fire at 1,000 meters accurately and even if you got close. It was very difficult to kill"
According to a German Tank commander. "I felt very safe inside the Tiger. in one engagement we were hit 36 times by the Russians and received no significant damage"
A British tank commander after D-Day "I fired at him at 100 yards and the round just bounced off" The tiger went around a hedge and the two tanks met heat on with the britich tank closing "I fired off two more rounds to the same effect. they bounced right off. the Tiger fired once to great effect as two of my crew were killed and it blew me right out of the turret"
Obviously these tank commanders have never Driven tanks in AH LOL
This was before the King Tiger.
http://military.history.com/global/listings/listings.jsp?NetwCode=HCI
-
Agreed, tiger is fine. M4's are a bit questionable, but they still seem fine.
-
The thing is AH doesn't factor in any sort of 'gun accuracy' that I've seen. It's all laser style shooting.
ie you can shoot a T-34's gun it's longest distance possible, shoot in the same spot every time, and hit the same spot every time.
-
Well spikes, long range shooting would be very hard, if not impossible, were HTC to factor in the shot dispersion we have with autocannons and MG's. You would have to keep firing untill the game randomly placed your shell in the right spot.
-
Wouldnt it be possible to factor in degrees of accuracies at different ranges. the greater the range shot by a given gun the lessor and more random the accuracy or the greater the range a projectile travels the more random the round placement? And also factor in velocity at given ranges?
-
I THINK htc has the velocities at various ranges modeled, but I'm not sure. I know the penetration preformance is within shouting distance of accurate.
-
I THINK htc has the velocities at various ranges modeled, but I'm not sure. I know the penetration preformance is within shouting distance of accurate.
Ok then its a matter of accuracy at longer ranges then. which would lead us back to the first part of my question.
All I know is I've had Tigers taken out at much longer ranges then I would think probable. Often by the same people time and time again. I know to kill a tiger you need to hit it in specific spots. but to be able to consistently hit those specific spots at longer ranges seems it should be a bit..improbable.
with the key word being consistently.
-
So you want the Tiger to be, well, invincible? OK, maybe reality backs that up. Say, add dispersion to other tanks (like the SB already has) but keep the Tiger tight. And, obviously the Germans had way better optics so model that as well. Then what would the ground game be like? The Tiger already has a K/D of 5 to 1 against the M4A3(76), 4 against the T34/85, 9.5 vs the Panzer, 72 vs the T34/76, and 95 vs the M4A3(75). Increase those numbers and all other tanks become useless (well.. even more useless). Do you really want everyone to drive Tigers? If they did, how would a Tiger have any advantage left?
-
SS Captain Micheal Wittman destroyed 14 British tanks and 15 personnel carriers in 15 minutes all alone in his Tiger at close range including the fire fly. His tank was hit over 60 time and survived the action. The Tiger lost a track later that day and was abandoned but retrieved the next day by the Germans. Now that is a Tiger worth the perk points. In AH my Tiger is being killed at long range by the panzer and the new M-4/76. I even had my turret put out of action by a T-34/76 from the front. I think if anything the Tiger here in AH may be to easy to kill. They do well when bombed and that is about the only time I use them. The Fire Fly is a better choice over all for me as the killing power of its gun is as good as the Tiger here and for about a fourth the perk point cost and is much harder to see sitting in the trees.
-
None of this matters in game. My tank will die first.
All my crew wants to do is hang around the magarita mixer.
-
What range is 'long range'? there are some tricks that make 3200yds a fairly easy shot. The range marks actually go out to 6400yds with with how I have things set.
Tiger was harder to kill IRL, because there seems to be a bit of lee way in the armor penetration (instead of getting a ricochet off the M4's front (any model, they should all have the same armor) with an M4A3(76) at 2k, you get a penetration, even though it's gun could only penetrate 96mm of armor, and the M4's armor, factoring in slope, is a bit more than 100mm IIRC). Also, a hit doesn't nessicarily mean a kill, even if your gun could have penetrated another 30mm of armor, a hit still might not mean a kill.
-
What range is 'long range'? there are some tricks that make 3200yds a fairly easy shot. The range marks actually go out to 6400yds with with how I have things set.
And THAT is the problem. It shouldnt be an easy shot no matter what "tricks" you use
3200 yd = 2926.08 m
If what the russian commander says is true ""the T-34 was accurate up to 500 meters. While the Tiger could fire at 1,000 meters accurately"
So your making accurate shots in game almost 3 times as far out as a tiger, and over 5 times the range as a T-34 could IRL
This should NOT be happening
According to Jentz (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.), "The Tiger's armor was invulnerable to attack from most tank guns firing normal armor-piercing shells or shot at ranges over 800 meters, including the American 75 mm and the Russian 76 mm. It is obvious that the 17-pdr. firing normal APCBC rounds could defeat the frontal armor of the Tiger I at most combat ranges for tank vs. tank actions in Europe. However, by 23 June 1944, only 109 Shermans with 17-pdrs. had landed in France along with six replacements. By the end of the war, on 5 May 1945, the British 21st Army Group possessed 1,235 Sherman tanks with 17-pdrs., while the remaining 1,915 Sherman tanks were all equipped with the 75 mm M3 gun". Below, three more tables from the same source (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.), that show clearly the tactical superiority the Tiger I had over its contemporary adversaries:
Tables listed at the link as I couldnt get them to list right here
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm
-
According to Jentz (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.), "The Tiger's armor was invulnerable to attack from most tank guns firing normal armor-piercing shells or shot at ranges over 800 meters, including the American 75 mm and the Russian 76 mm.
And that's very much the same in AH. Both guns rounds will mostly bounce off the Tiger over 880yds.
-
And that's very much the same in AH. Both guns rounds will mostly bounce off the Tiger over 880yds.
Cept for those that manage to game the game as Nemisis discribes
-
Enough with the negative waves Shuffler. Remember the loud speakers scare the helll out of the other guys, and the paint rounds are just so...... well you know what I mean.
-
Cept for those that manage to game the game as Nemisis discribes
You are wrong.
Go offline and try to kill a tiger at long ranges with both guns mentioned in that very quote, the American 75mm and the Soviet 76mm. You will see your rounds bouncing off again & again.
-
At the V-base 85 spawn is one of the few V-bases a GV can up and go into action right away. Tankers can spawn in from V-76 to the north and V-88 to the south. If you are coming in from V-88 to the V-85 spawn. You can drive up the hill and have a great view of the field of fire below. From the top of that hill to the spawn from V-76 the range is between 1600 meters to 2400 meters. So if you are on that hill in a Tiger then most the rds from the M-4/76 and the Panzer and even the T-34/85 should bounce off.
I have killed Tigers on that hill or damaged the turret from the V-76 spawn with one shot in the M-4/76 and the Panzer. I have been killed in a Tiger on that hill and in the spawn in a Tiger by the Panzer the M-4/76 and the T-34/85. So it should take another Tiger or a Firefly to kill a Tiger most times at that range. What am I missing ?
-
I have killed Tigers on that hill or damaged the turret from the V-76 spawn with one shot in the M-4/76 and the Panzer. I have been killed in a Tiger on that hill and in the spawn in a Tiger by the Panzer the M-4/76 and the T-34/85. So it should take another Tiger or a Firefly to kill a Tiger most times at that range. What am I missing ?
Just to clarify both the M4A2(76)w as well as the T-34/85 have much bigger guns than the two mentioned in the quote DREDIOCK presented.
Not referring to you, but I notice a lot of confusion especially in ingame chat about the Sherman variants. A VC or a 76(w) kills a Tiger, and you can almost bet someone will quote some TV shows with the old "Sherman couldn't kill Tiger" myths, which mostly are referring to the ubiquitous standard 75mm variants. And almost nobody in the MA is taling the 75mm Sherman for pure tank combat for very obvious reasons.
-
One thing to keep in mind that I haven't seen pop up yet in this discussion (which it may have I only skimmed it) is the optics available to the crews manning these tanks.
The Tiger was accurate at long range as much because of the optics used in the gun sight and crew training as anything you can directly attribute to the gun itself. The German gun sight was superior to anything I've seen the U.S. field (I'm not familiar with the Soviet sights). It allowed ranging to be done at much longer ranges than the US system.
According to this site
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm (http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm)
The sight on the Tiger I was also capable of 2.5x magnification.
The commander ordered the target selection, type of ammunition, and range. The gunner observed the tracer and the strike of the round and reported his observations to the commander, who then ordered corrections. To quickly traverse onto a target, the Tiger I was outfitted with a hydraulic motor for the turret drive. The hydraulic drive traversed the turret at a maximum rate of 360 degrees in 60 seconds, dependent on the engine speed. Placing the target on the point of a triangle allowed the gunner to aim without obstructing the view of the target. The triangle height and separation distances in mils were used as an aid in estimating the range to the target, by comparing them with the size of the target. Tiger gunners knew the size of their targets from target tables and later, by practice, instinctively knew distances. The pattern in the right reticule also contained the 7 triangles plus adjustable range scales that allowed the gunner to register the exact range to the target. The gunner adjusted the range through this sight by lowering or raising the gun to set the aiming sight again on target. The range scale was graduated at 100 meter intervals out to a range of 3,000 meters for the APCR rounds, 4,000 meters for the APCBC rounds, and up to 6,000 meters for the HE rounds.
From April 1944 on, the monocular Turmzielfernröhr 9c (sighting telescope) replaced the binocular Turmzielfernröhr 9b.This sight allowed the gunner to select two magnifications, 2.5x and 5x. The lower magnification was intended for target acquisition, as it showed a wider field of view. The higher magnification allowed precise aiming at longer ranges. The range scale was graduated in the same way as the Turmzielfernröhr 9b sight - at 100 meters jumps up to 3,000 meters for APCR rounds, up to 4,000 meters for APCBC rounds, and up to 6,000 meters for HE rounds. Tiger platoons could open fire (concentrated platoon fire) for effect against stationary targets at up to 3,000 meters. When firing against moving targets, the rule was to open fire starting at 1,200 meters and up to 2,000 meters.
-
The Tiger has become the Paper Tiger. It was once respected in the game. (feared)? It has became the "Hunted". A waste of time to up. Concrete queen, Turret pop and tower. Grab a M4 a and kill it. :neener:
-
The Tiger has become the Paper Tiger. It was once respected in the game. (feared)?
But back then we only had the Panzer IV, the T-34/76, and no 37mm Il-2s or B-25H's.
Thus, the only thing that could stop a Tiger when ords were down was another Tiger (or a Hurri D, but few could do it).
But now we have also the Sherman VC, the T-34/85, 17lbs on Vbases and the aforementioned planes... The Tiger hasn't become that much "paper".. he just has to compete against a lot more and more dangerous opponents. The combat environment has changed.
-
I upped Tiger lastnight and thank goodness I did. I popped over a hill and found a sherman point blank in front of me. Two rounds hit me cause my turret was facing 45degrees from him. My one shot killed him. I went around a mound and found T-34/85 and at less than 200yds i received no damage and killed him. Then Dr7 finally found my camping site and busted me with one shot moving at 1600 yds in M4. Go figure huh. :cheers:
-
As I've said, there seems to be some leeway in armor penetration. Personally, I want to see that removed, since it isn't crucial to the game play.
The M4A3(75) cannot penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger. Even at point blank range, you CAN'T get a hit I think. T-34/76 is a bit better, but its still unlikely that you'll suffer anything worse than a damaged pintil gun unless you are incredibly unlucky or incredibly stupid.
As to the Panzer and M4A3(76)W, they both should only be able to penetrate the frontal armor of the tiger at around 1500yds. Again, I would like to have some of the tigers invincibility status restored.
-
Again, I would like to have some of the tigers invincibility status restored.
Why? And how?
-
Because, its realistic. If the tiger's frontal armor couldn't have been by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds, then we should have it so tigers armor can't be penetrated by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds.
How? We get rid of that leeway in armor penetration. If your shot wouldn't have penetrated IRL, then it sucks to be you, because you just alerted him to your presence.
-
Because, its realistic. If the tiger's frontal armor couldn't have been by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds, then we should have it so tigers armor can't be penetrated by the KwK 40 L'48 at 1800yds.
Have you testet it? If not I'd suggest you take a Panzer and start shooting a Tiger frontally at 1.8K. I'm very interested in the results you get.
-
Let's suppose a Tiger is shelling a vehicle base from a ridge. Let's suppose he's slightly over the ridge on the downslope so he can depress the gun enough. Someone firing on him from long range at the base is going to cause the shell to sort of lob into the Tiger from above. The frontal armor is extremely thick, but the top armor (on the chassis or the turret) is pretty thin, only 26 mm. If the shell is lobbing down onto the 26 mm armor would that not penetrate and kill the Tiger? Could not that be one mechanism for long range kills on Tigers?
I've done offline testing with the T34/85 vs the Tiger and with AP or HVAP it cannot penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger at 1400 yds. At 1200 yds the AP still bounces off. The HVAP occasionally penetrates but doesn't kill the Tiger. Same thing with the M4A3(76)W- AP always bounces off frontal armor of Tiger at 1400 yds no matter where I hit.
-
It was just an example lusche. I think it would help with all of the GV's. Oh sure, it will be harder to kill them, but you also live longer.
-
It was just an example lusche. I think it would help with all of the GV's. Oh sure, it will be harder to kill them, but you also live longer.
You were repeatedly implying the KWK 40 has much better armor penetration here than in RL.
You are claiming there is currently "some leeway" in armor penetration. You said you would like to get the Tiger's status "restored" by getting the other tanks guns to more realistic values. So would you mind to tell me which guns are penetrating better in AH than they should?
-
I was implying nothing, I was using it as an example, as I previously stated. I personally feel the the Panzer's gun is about right.
The M4A3(76)'s gun, unless I have the thickness of the M4's armor once you factor in the slope wrong. A bit more than 100mm, right?
-
I upped Tiger lastnight and thank goodness I did. I popped over a hill and found a sherman point blank in front of me. Two rounds hit me cause my turret was facing 45degrees from him. My one shot killed him. I went around a mound and found T-34/85 and at less than 200yds i received no damage and killed him. Then Dr7 finally found my camping site and busted me with one shot moving at 1600 yds in M4. Go figure huh. :cheers:
See and thats the biggest problem. Is some people manage to shoot silly accurate, routinely hitting those specific sweet spots on tanks at ranges that far surpass the type of accuracy IRL these tanks had. At greater ranges. Not only should rounds be loosing velocity (which Im told here is factored in to the game) But they should also begin to loose accuracy. I know I've had Tigers shot out from under me from greater ranges then even the tiger was able to be accurate at. Often by a select list of people who's manage to do it with almost uncanny regularity but who's names are irrelevant inasmuch as whomever it is. Should not be able to be that accurate from those ranges no matter what system they've come up with.
-
I was implying nothing, I was using it as an example, as I previously stated. I personally feel the the Panzer's gun is about right.
The M4A3(76)'s gun, unless I have the thickness of the M4's armor once you factor in the slope wrong. A bit more than 100mm, right?
By using it as an example you were implying what Lusche pointed out. So I am interested as well, where do you get your data from and is it based on reality or does it just come to you in a dream?
ack-ack
-
I was implying nothing, I was using it as an example, as I previously stated. I personally feel the the Panzer's gun is about right.
Example for what then? You say the Tiger should get back to it's old status, by giving the other tank's guns more "realistic" armor penetration... giving the Panzer as an example... and suddenly it's all fine with the Panzer. :)
So just to be clear and to avoid any confusion: Which guns exactly do have too much armor penetration capability vs the Tiger's armor?
-
Personally, I don't see that I was implying the KwK 40 is better here than it was IRL, and that wasn't my intention. Sorry for any misunderstanding
M4A3(76)'s gun. I've gotten hits on tigers' frontal amor at around 1400yds which should be when it can no longer penetrate the tiger's armor, based on the game's charts (115mm at 1k, 97mm at 2k). Since it says "97mm" as opposed to "est. 95mm", then mm's should be able to decide whether the armor is penetrated or not. I've also gotten hits on M4's at 2000yds when it shouldn't have been able to penetrate the frontal amor, assuming the armor IS a bit more than 100mm once you factor in the slope.
Might be just percieved, but it seems like the M4's gun has a bit of leeway.