Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gixer on May 05, 2004, 03:14:36 AM
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Would of thought a thread would of started on this one by now given the amount of media coverage and implications to US Middle East relations
...-Gixer
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Its a taboo topic.
Bush Hater.
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Bodhi already posted on it earlier:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115498 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115498)
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An investigation has just started looking into the deaths of 10 prisoners...
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This is the first US news source I've seen pick up the story. It was on the BBC and CBC websites yesterday.
New York Times
May 5, 2004
Army Discloses Criminal Inquiry on Prison Abuse
By DOUGLAS JEHL and ERIC SCHMITT
WASHINGTON, May 4 — In the last 16 months, the Army has conducted more than 30 criminal investigations into misconduct by American captors in Iraq and Afghanistan, including 10 cases of suspicious death, 10 cases of abuse, and two deaths already determined to have been criminal homicides, the Army's vice chief of staff said Tuesday.
To date, the most severe penalties in any of the cases were less-than-honorable discharges for five Army soldiers, military officials said. No one has been sentenced to prison, they said.
The disclosure of the investigations, by Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army's second-highest ranking general, was the strongest indication to date of a wider pattern of abuse at American prisons beyond the horrific descriptions and photographs that have emerged recently of acts of humiliation, sexual and otherwise, at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in November.
At the Pentagon on Tuesday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld condemned the abuses at Abu Ghraib as "totally unacceptable and un-American," but sought to minimize the significance of incidents elsewhere and insisted that the military had acted swiftly in cases in which misconduct was alleged. "The system works," he said.
But on Capitol Hill, members of the Senate Armed Services Committee expressed anger after a briefing in which they were told of the details and potential scope of the misconduct for the first time.
The Senate Intelligence Committee said it would hold a closed session on Wednesday to determine whether American intelligence officers from the military or other agencies were involved.
The Bush administration dispatched top officials, including Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, to contain the fallout over the widening story of abuse at the prisons, which Mr. Powell said had "stunned every American." Administration officials have acknowledged that the episode had caused enormous damage to the American image around the world.
To date, only Army military police officers assigned to Abu Ghraib prison have been disciplined in abuses committed in November in a secure cellblock. But a March 9 report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said two military intelligence officers and two private contractors who oversaw interrogations may have been "either directly or indirectly responsible."
It was not until April 24 that the Army began to investigate possible involvement by military intelligence units and contractors working with them in Iraq in any abuse, including the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade; employees of CACI, a private contractor; and the Iraqi Survey Group, a unit of the Defense Intelligence Agency, according to Defense Department officials.
The worst abuses at Abu Ghraib took place in November, after Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, then in charge of the detention facility at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, recommended changes in procedures intended "to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence," according to General Taguba's report.
In Iraq on Tuesday, General Miller said he had recommended that military police be given a more active role in gathering intelligence, but said the abuses had not been the result.
In providing a detailed accounting of other Army investigations into accusations of abuse, General Casey said the military had conducted a total of 25 criminal investigations into deaths and 10 into allegations of misconduct involving detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Of the cases involving death, the cause in 12 was natural or undetermined.
Of the 13 other deaths, one — a prisoner killed while trying to escape — was ruled a justifiable homicide, General Casey said.
Of the two cases determined to have been criminal homicides, defense officials said, one was in Iraq, and has resulted in a dishonorable discharge but not the jailing of the American soldier responsible, whose actions were judged to have been provoked by rock-throwing Iraqi prisoners.
The other case was in Afghanistan and involved a person working with the Central Intelligence Agency who has not yet been charged with a crime, the military officials said. A C.I.A. official disputed the idea that any determination had been made in that case about possible agency involvement. "The investigation is still under way," the official said.
The other 10 deaths are still under investigation.
The accounting by Army officials of the deaths of Iraqi prisoners apparently did not include a case in which two marines from Camp Pendleton, Calif., are set to stand trial this summer on charges of abuse involving an Iraqi prisoner who died in their custody in June 2003.
It was not clear whether the cases listed by the military as being under investigation included the deaths of two prisoners in Iraq that C.I.A. officials have said are being reviewed because of the possible involvement of agency personnel.
Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a telephone interview that the impact of the abuse cases in the Middle East would extend "beyond what we can imagine today on our troops and our nation's security. It will just fuel the anger and ill-feeling in the region."
Senator John McCain of Arizona, a top Republican on the panel, called for a public hearing "as soon as possible" in which the committee would ask Mr. Rumsfeld and other top officials to explain "how this whole situation evolved, what action is being taken, and what further actions needs to be taken to prevent a recurrence of this terrible situation."
Mr. Rumsfeld, appearing at a midafternoon news conference, identified six separate broad reviews that he said had started since January, when the first reports of the abuse at Abu Ghraib reached Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top American commander in Iraq.
"We're taking and will continue to take whatever steps are necessary to hold accountable those that may have violated the code of military conduct and betrayed the trust placed in them by the American people," he said.
Among Americans conducting interrogations in Iraqi prisons, members of the Iraq Survey Group, under the command of Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton of the Defense Intelligence Agency, had primary responsibility for the interrogation of Iraqi prisoners designated as "high-value targets," according to senior intelligence officials.
But a spokesman for the Defense Intelligence Agency said the agency had "not heard of any allegations involving our people."
C.I.A. officials also took part in some interrogations involving high-value targets, including as many as two dozen prisoners in Abu Ghraib, an agency official said.
But intelligence officials said the primary role in interrogating Iraqi prisoners appeared to have been played by Army intelligence units, under the overall command until recently of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, which answered to Col. Thomas Pappas, who was among those singled out for particular criticism in the report by General Taguba.
Ralph Williams, a spokesman for the Titan Corporation in San Diego, said Tuesday that John Israel, one of the contract employees implicated in the prison abuse scandal, worked for a Titan subcontractor that he would not name.
The Army's classified report on the abuse at Abu Ghraib identifies Mr. Israel as a translator who was, with others, "directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses" at the prison and recommended "immediate disciplinary action."
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Everyone with their iq intackt know that this is not representative of the US army/navy etc.... or for that matter the British forces.
As usually a few idiots are making it hard for the rest of us.
But It is kinda strange that this should not be common knowledge, it happens in any war and withing any army.
Even the allied under ww2 did the same things vs. germans,italians and japanese soldiers/civilians but not much has been said about it.
Take a look at the stories told by both americans and germans soldiers that survieved the ww2. They both tell the same stories there is nothing like a nice war where people follow the rules its a win or loose situation and that goes for all wars.
If you raise your hands and surrender, you might get shot anyway so why not just give the iron to its full.
That also do things to people fiting it, they get cruel and use their upper hand if they can. If they cant win it they might get even more cruel and thats the worst scenario.
I am not a expert but when i heard my granpa told me how he felt about it(ww2), it kinda helped me understand somthing too.
I did some UN time in Lebanon and know somthing about the arab/Israli problem It will not be solved in our lifetime unless somthing shuts us all down.
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Originally posted by airguard
Even the allied under ww2 did the same things vs. germans,italians and japanese soldiers/civilians but not much has been said about it.
I don't think it's a good comparison. Were these things happening in Germany, Italy and Japan one year after occupation began?
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Ah, thought you might have been speaking of this prisoner abuse, hardly mentioned in the press:
Situation for Women in Saddam's Iraq
In 1979, immediately upon coming to power, Saddam Hussein silenced all political opposition in Iraq and converted his one-party state into a cult of personality. Since then, his regime has systematically executed, tortured, imprisoned, raped, terrorized, and repressed the Iraqi people. Iraq is a nation rich in culture, with a long history of intellectual and scientific achievement, especially among its women. However, Saddam Hussein's brutal regime has silenced the voices of Iraq's women, along with its men, through violence and intimidation.
In Iraq under Saddam, if you are a woman, you could face:
Beheading. Under the pretext of fighting prostitution, units of "Fedayeen Saddam," the paramilitary organization led by Uday Hussein, Saddam's eldest son, have beheaded in public more than 200 women throughout the country, dumping their severed heads at their families' doorsteps. Many families have been required to display the victim's head on their outside fences for several days. These barbaric acts were carried out in the total absence of any proper judicial procedures and many of the victims were not engaged in prostitution, but were targeted for political reasons. For example, Najat Mohammad Haydar, an obstetrician in Baghdad, was beheaded after criticizing the corruption within health services. (Amnesty International Report, Iraq: Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, August 2001; Iraqi Women's League in Damascus, Syria)
Rape.
The Iraqi Government uses rape and sexual assault of women to achieve the following goals: to extract information and forced confessions from detained family members; to intimidate Iraqi oppositionists by sending videotapes showing the rape of female family members; and to blackmail Iraqi men into future cooperation with the regime. Some Iraqi authorities even carry personnel cards identifying their official "activity" as the "violation of women's honor." (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; Iraq Research and Documentation Project, Harvard University)
Torture.
The Iraqi Government routinely tortures and kills female dissidents and the female relatives of Iraqi oppositionists and defectors. Victims include Safiyah Hassan, the mother of two Iraqi defectors, who was killed after publicly criticizing the Iraqi Government for killing her sons after their return to Iraq. Women in Saddam's jails are subjected to the following forms of torture: brutal beatings, systematic rape, electrical shocks, and branding. (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; U.S. Department of State, Iraq: A Population Silenced, December 2002)
Murder.
In 1990, Saddam Hussein introduced Article 111 into the Iraqi Penal Code in a calculated effort to strengthen tribal support for his regime. This law exempts men who kill their female relatives in defense of their family's honor from prosecution and punishment. The UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women reported that more than 4,000 women have been victims of so-called "honor killings" since Article 111 went into effect. (UN Commission on Human Rights, Report of the Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, January 2002)
Reference: U.S. State Department, 1999.
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"Ah, thought you might have been speaking of this prisoner abuse"
Wow Rip, you only contributed one sentence to your post and it's a lie. And the article is a strawman. Or are you going to be using Bathist Iraq as a benchmark for US behaviour. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GScholz
On the other hand Thrawn, there wasn't a guerrilla war being fought in Germany and Japan one year after their occupation began. I do however get your point, WWII is not a good comparison to this situation.
Ripsnort, are you defending the crimes committed by these (few) American servicemen? It sure looks that way.
Are you measuring the entire USA military on the errors of a handful? Sure looks that way....
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"Ah, thought you might have been speaking of this prisoner abuse"
Wow Rip, you only contributed one sentence to your post and it's a lie. And the article is a strawman. Or are you going to be using Bathist Iraq as a benchmark for US behaviour. :rolleyes:
The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America.
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Ripsnort..
it seems to me that your administration trying to say.
EDIT: was edited re read your post
hey dweebs .. they were rapped before, so shut up and let our ill soldiers do their job, coz we bringing in democracy and peace.....
anyway its rock to see that someone have balls to compare SH`s regime with contemporary US regime
fresh idea after those Nazi comparations :D
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Originally posted by GScholz
*lol* My God you are an obvious liar, I even used the word "few" to single the perpetrators out.
I guess maybe our exchange was lost in translation:
I am no more defending the actions of these servicemen than you are blanketing the entire USA military of their actions. So, to answer your question, no I am not defending them. I *am* pointing out the bias of the press, thus my original post had you opened your eyes...in America, this is getting more attention than Saddams abuses to his prisoners did from 1990-2002.
For the record, its good for this stuff to come out, heads *should* roll, after all, we *are* the good guys and we don't need creeps like these guys in the service...but...where was the press during the womens sufferage in Iraq ? No where. Shame on us(them).
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America.
You have no basis for making that statement. Everyone knows about what a bad guy Saddam was, and this has been especially emphasized since our originally stated reason for going to war turned out to be a big lie.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
You have no basis for making that statement. Everyone knows about what a bad guy Saddam was, and this has been especially emphasized since our originally stated reason for going to war turned out to be a big lie.
Saddams abuses never made the national evening news 5 nights in a row...this situation has. That is my basis.
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1 more question into this problem......
How is this possible on sutch level in PROFESIONAL army ?
i rather expect that from non profesional army.
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"The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America."
Wow, the American press is covering the actions of Americans more than they were covering the actions of Iraqis. Who would have thunk it?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America."
Wow, the American press is covering the actions of Americans more than they were covering the actions of Iraqis. Who would have thunk it?
You're right, the ovens in Germany while cooking Jews didn't get much press either.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Everyone knows Hussein's regime was one of oppression and cruelty. Any story about their atrocities would hardly be "news". The US is not known to be a cruel and oppressive regime, therefore such atrocities committed by (DISCLAIMER: a few) US service men is "news" ... and rather bad news at that.
Good point, its rare indeed that our servicemen act like this, I suppose it will indeed draw alittle more coverage.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I don't think it's a good comparison. Were these things happening in Germany, Italy and Japan one year after occupation began?
I hear people saying ww2 is not a good comparition for this one ok maybe right.
But history dont diffrences wars actually they pretty much the same only the weapons is diffrent.
reasons always the same, Kinda criminal, somebody wants what others owns , and ofcourse the owners want it back. and there we go.
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I've been reading each of the replies and am quite frankly stunned at some of the short sightedness in the responses.
Attempting to play down/defend the incident due to past wars or to Sadam himself are so incredibly short sighted one wonders if that opinion is of someone who actually thinks at all of the larger picture. Rather then just defending "the team" on this incident.
The larger picture is one of enormous implications to US relations in the region and around the globe. At a time when US credibility has plummeted to an unprecedented level as a result of the invasion of Iraq and for the middle east region also the US continued support for Israel.
At a time when the US is trying to gain support for the war in Iraq from other countries and involve the UN or Nato. Instances like this have an enourmous impact. Especially for governments that are currently supporting the war like Australia and Britain for instance. Where the majortiy of the population is strongly against the war.
With elections looming a change of government is inevitable as people look to have their countries support cease and for the troops to return, as the war becomes more and more unpopular.
The fact that no WMD's were ever found is bad enough. But along with the continued and ever esculating fighting, increasing casualty rates for the coalition and Iraqi civilians. Breakdown of security and failure to win "the hearts and minds" of the civilian population. Events like this no matter how isolated can easily be the diplomatic nail in the coffin. Not only for the war in Iraq but also for the war on terror.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by airguard
But history dont diffrences wars actually they pretty much the same only the weapons is diffrent.
reasons always the same, Kinda criminal, somebody wants what others owns , and ofcourse the owners want it back. and there we go.
Yes you are correct and i will give you classic example
before 1938
On czech lands close to german boarder lived many german people and most spread language there were german.
Then German, UK agree that Hitler can take it, coz a lot of German live there.
So in 1939 we lost about 40 km from our boarder, because some other states with out us did some agreement
in 1945 germany were defeated.
Czech took lands back, moved all germans to the Germany and confiscated their holds.(include people whitch lived here before) And everybody who were cooperating with Germans during WW2 lost all holds as well.
AND HERE WE GO
90`s .. German wanna back lands , whitch has been confiscated after WW2, back.
2000 German say to block our Entrance to EU ( or something like that) if we will not give those lands back to owners(mostly german)
so we gave them nothing and we will never give them anything.
tell me where is justice.
Those people(formet owners) didnt mind when germans came.
Those people were not pro nazi before nazi cames.
They has been moved out from czech with 100kg/per person after war.
We kept their holds as war compensation from germany.
Now look at Palestine and 60 years back
Is it that much diferent ?
After BS happen its pointless to seek something like "justice"
some agreement would be much more real and usefull
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I think the only realistic difference between this occupation and those of the past is mass media. There are people out there up to no good as we speak right now..but are they getting caught?
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from what I've read/seen-on-tv, this is one situation that can't been blamed on the bush administration (or the armed forces for that matter).
obviously I'm no better informed than your average guy here on the subject (it's not like I'm 'in the loop' info wise) but from what I've seen, I seen nothing to give the impression that the bush administration or the command structure advocated or even gave any indication that they would tolerate such behavior.
it seems like some soldiers acted in a very unprofessional manner (even sub-human), but it seems to be individual instances, and I've heard no reports that there was ever any attempts to cover it up or allow these things to happen. as long as the administration continues to take appropriate action (and from what I've seen so far that appearers to be exactly what they have been doing so far), there isn't a whole lot to discuss.
the reason I feel you haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on such a big subject is that there is really nothing to discuss.
pretty much everyone agrees that the behavior of these soldiers was flat out wrong. most could agree that the response from the administration has been appropriate. AFAIK we haven't heard what the final punishment will be for all of those involved so we can't argue about that. so whats to talk about?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
from what I've read/seen-on-tv, this is one situation that can't been blamed on the bush administration (or the armed forces for that matter).
obviously I'm no better informed than your average guy here on the subject (it's not like I'm 'in the loop' info wise) but from what I've seen, I seen nothing to give the impression that the bush administration or the command structure advocated or even gave any indication that they would tolerate such behavior.
it seems like some soldiers acted in a very unprofessional manner (even sub-human), but it seems to be individual instances, and I've heard no reports that there was ever any attempts to cover it up or allow these things to happen. as long as the administration continues to take appropriate action (and from what I've seen so far that appearers to be exactly what they have been doing so far), there isn't a whole lot to discuss.
the reason I feel you haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on such a big subject is that there is really nothing to discuss.
pretty much everyone agrees that the behavior of these soldiers was flat out wrong. most could agree that the response from the administration has been appropriate. AFAIK we haven't heard what the final punishment will be for all of those involved so we can't argue about that. so whats to talk about?
Best post in this thread..:aok
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If you think that this made it out into public because of the goodness of the Bush administration and the Army, you're living in fantasy land.
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Originally posted by -MZ-
If you think that this made it out into public because of the goodness of the Bush administration and the Army, you're living in fantasy land.
Actually, it was argued (within the military) whether or not to release this to the public immediately...it was chosen not to, bad choice though, the info would have eventually gotten out. Either way, the results from this incident would have been the same.
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"from what I've read/seen-on-tv, this is one situation that can't been blamed on the bush administration (or the armed forces for that matter). "
True but it seems in the eyes of middle east nations that Bush's televised speech regarding the incident was totally unconvincing and ineffective. .
Again one needs to look at the wider picture and implications at a time when US credibility in the region and globaly is already at a new low.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by lada
1 more question into this problem......
How is this possible on sutch level in PROFESIONAL army ?
i rather expect that from non profesional army.
I'm playing the devil's advocate here...I do not condone what they have done.
Imagine that you are fighting in the war, you've just liberated a people from a horrific tyrant. Yet, it would seem that everytime you turn around you have the people that you have liberated throwing grenades, shooting, mortars, and car bombs killing the your friends and fellow service men. I imagine that this would get frustrating and upsetting eventually.
Again, I'm not condoning any abuse. Just presenting another view point.
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True but it seems in the eyes of middle east nations that Bush's televised speech regarding the incident was totally unconvincing and ineffective. .
Again one needs to look at the wider picture and implications at a time when US credibility in the region and globaly is already at a new low.
while I'll agree that we may look bad after this, and there will be some sort of diplomatic implications, speaking just for myself I don't really give a damn about how we appear.
I don't care if we give the impression of handling it, I don't care if other country's think we are a-holes.
as an American I want this handled, I want the guilty parties punished appropriately (read severely), and want whatever steps are possible to make sure it never happens again taken.
and I want these things done, not because of how others will think of us, but because it's the right thing to do, and under no circumstances do I ever want this sort of behavior considered except able in my country or by my countrymen.
to sum it up. I'd like the right thing to be done here and I'd like the focus to be more on doing the right thing than on the appearance of the right thing. and from what I can see thats what is happening.
If you think that this made it out into public because of the goodness of the Bush administration and the Army, you're living in fantasy land.
who said anything about the 'goodness of anybodies heart'. I said it doesn't appear to be a cover-up. maybe they didn't immediately go public with the reports but that is not a cover-up. cover-ups involve hiding or destroying evidence, and taking active steps to hide the truth. this is a completely different thing than deciding not to hold a press release immediately.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
it seems like some soldiers acted in a very unprofessional manner (even sub-human), but it seems to be individual instances, and I've heard no reports that there was ever any attempts to cover it up or allow these things to happen.
According to the General in charge of the facility, cell blocks 1a and 1b (the cell blocks where the incidents took place) were under operational control of military intelligence contractors.
According to the soldiers involved in the incidents they were actting on the orders of these military intelligence contractors.
So the questions are: Who hired these contractors?, For what purpose were they hired?, Who issued them thier orders?, And who are they legally responsible to?.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Would of thought a thread would of started on this one by now given the amount of media coverage and implications to US Middle East relations
...-Gixer
Yeah, I would have expected more threads about all the prisoners Iraq tortured and the implications that had on US Middle East relations.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, I would have expected more threads about all the prisoners Iraq tortured and the implications that had on US Middle East relations.
Are you serious? How many threads have there been about the US going to liberate Iraq so the Iraqis wouldn't be tortured by SH anymore?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Are you serious? How many threads have there been about the US going to liberate Iraq so the Iraqis wouldn't be tortured by SH anymore?
what do you consider "torture" ?
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Shoving a broomstick up someone's ass.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Shoving a broomstick up someones ass.
When was that proven?
What about throwing people into wood chippers,cutting out tongues, chopping off limbs, sending body parts to family members in trash bags, raping children in front of the parents, etc..? I didn't see you protesting any of that news.
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According to the General in charge of the facility, cell blocks 1a and 1b (the cell blocks where the incidents took place) were under operational control of military intelligence contractors.
According to the soldiers involved in the incidents they were actting on the orders of these military intelligence contractors.
So the questions are: Who hired these contractors?, For what purpose were they hired?, Who issued them thier orders?, And who are they legally responsible to?.
first I've heard of this (like I said I don't claim to be the most informed), just heard the basics mostly.
I'll wait to decide make any conclusions until some more info comes out.
but my gut reaction is that, if this is true, I don't like it. what the hell is a military inteligence contractor? and why would we need to hire private companies to handle this work. is this just someone who we hire so we can distance ourselves from things that shouldn't be going on. should private companies be given authority to issue orders to our soldiers? my answer to that would have to be a big assed no.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
According to the General in charge of the facility, cell blocks 1a and 1b (the cell blocks where the incidents took place) were under operational control of military intelligence contractors.
According to the soldiers involved in the incidents they were actting on the orders of these military intelligence contractors.
So the questions are: Who hired these contractors?, For what purpose were they hired?, Who issued them thier orders?, And who are they legally responsible to?.
I really have to wonder if she (the reserve one star who was in charge of the prison) is not just attempting to redirect blame in a desperate attempt to CYA. I'm not saying that her excuses are totally implausable, just that it sounds real suspicious.
There are several holes in her story. Not the least of which is she claimed she reported the problems to higher ranking officers, and nothing happened. Yet a grunt passes a couple of photos to someone in the military staff and the whole thing goes public. Does that not seem at least a little odd to you? I could go on, but if you are convinced she's telling the truth there isn't much point.
Oh, and Gixer, there was a thread about this the day it went public. However, Boroda came in and just generally made a total prettythang of himself and Skuzzy slammed the padlock on it shortly thereafter. Come to think of it, I haven't seen Boroda since.
The gist of the original thread was a total disgust for what happened. It is a great dishonor to the nation in general, and the military in particular. That pretty much sums it up.
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As leader of the free world, I believe the U.S. should hold itself to the highest standards. Using methods to extract information is one thing, but mistreating prisoners for the sake of amusement and humiliation is unacceptable IMHO. I hope justice is swift, forceful, and public. I find this personally distasteful and was NOT amused by any means upon viewing the related images.
True but it seems in the eyes of middle east nations that Bush's televised speech regarding the incident was totally unconvincing and ineffective
Cool, I didn't know you were Middle Eastern, or are you just speculating on behalf of millions of people you've never met?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
According to the soldiers involved in the incidents they were actting on the orders of these military intelligence contractors.
Aahhh... famous "not our fault, we just followed orders"...
Newsflash: That didn't work in 1945, why should it work now?
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New disqusting pictures today in the Washington post :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
'That female trooper deserves a really good spanking...
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yep, looks like we may have some bad apples ... pls point out an army that doesn't
they will be made a huge example of .. would not want to be in their shoes
not knowing what the "prisoners" did before they were captured, I withhold judgement on those that are detaining them..
at the very least, the idiot with the camera should have that camera crammed up his arse..
now onto the the rest of the war...
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From people that always claimed a higher moral ground, I was expecting a different attitude than what Ripsnort, Nuke and Eagler showed.
Steve, You care nothing, I know, but I you for this:
As leader of the free world, I believe the U.S. should hold itself to the highest standards. Using methods to extract information is one thing, but mistreating prisoners for the sake of amusement and humiliation is unacceptable IMHO. I hope justice is swift, forceful, and public. I find this personally distasteful and was NOT amused by any means upon viewing the related images.
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not knowing what the "prisoners" did before they were captured, I withhold judgement on those that are detaining them..
at the very least, the idiot with the camera should have that camera crammed up his arse..
it doesn't make a damn what those people did before they where captured. nothing they could have done would excuse this sort of thing.
and why should you be pissed at the guy with the camera? because witout him we could all be blisfully ignorant and this treatment could continue?
IMO the soldier who released the pics to the media deserves a promotion, he did the right thing without regard for his own safety or how it would effect his career.
it seems the more info that comes out on this the worse it looks. I've still seen nothing solid to indicate that this treatment was advocated higher up in the bush administration. I think Kerrys calls for Rumsfeld to resign are a bit premature. we should have some more info before we start looking for scapegoats.
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its nice to watch video of Mr. Bush for arabs TV
1. Iraqi must
2, iraqi must
last. Iraqi must
:D
anyway before he made this statement, it were reported as
"Mr. Bush will try to gain lost credit in ME".
Actualy what credit did he have in ME before ?
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Originally posted by Eagler
yep, looks like we may have some bad apples ... pls point out an army that doesn't
they will be made a huge example of .. would not want to be in their shoes
not knowing what the "prisoners" did before they were captured, I withhold judgement on those that are detaining them..
at the very least, the idiot with the camera should have that camera crammed up his arse..
now onto the the rest of the war...
The IKRK told the US authorities month ago!!! So this is definitly not a problem with bad apples its a big problem of ur sick government!
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watch ur buds get blown to bits, then play mr. niceguy to those who did it... yep - great way to fight a war..
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watch ur buds get blown to bits, then play mr. niceguy to those who did it... yep - great way to fight a war..
so you think we should just allow this kinda crap to go on? that we are somehow tying their hands be requiring them to act like human beings?
I don't much give a damn what the rest of the world thinks but I am sorta curious what kind of behavior to expect from people when they get home if this sort of crap is allowed.
how would you like some guy who got his jollys torturing some prisoner to come home in his nice freshly pressed uniform and set up a date with your daughter?
one of the reasons we expect our men to continue to act appropriately even when faced with an enemy who doesn't restrain themselves in the same fashion is that one day we are going to expect these men (and women now too, I guess) to come home and live with the rest of us.
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Rumsfeldt been fired yet?
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if they have proof that he had knowledge of this he should be more than fired, criminal charges would be apropriet.
but without the proof I'd hate for him to just be fired to prove to other countries that we are "doing something" about the situation.
doing something isn't enough, you have to do the right thing. if he didn't know then firing is wrong. and if he did it's not enough.
not that I'd miss seeing Rummy involved in our gov't. I don't like Bush muchm I think he's the worst president of my lifetime. but I think Rummy is just evil, you can see the glee on his face when he talks about war, some days you can almost see where they removed his horns.
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Rumsfeldt been fired yet?
I dont think that he dares...
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Originally posted by Eagler
watch ur buds get blown to bits, then play mr. niceguy to those who did it... yep - great way to fight a war..
Are you justifying their behavior? If the administration is too ****ing incompetant to stop their people from killing unarmed prisoners, then Bush needs to be dragged out of the Oval Office kicking and screaming like the spoiled crybaby **** he is and thrown in a cage for little children to mock.
We are just as bad as the Saddam's goons now, and we have people justifying the behavior, just like Saddam did.
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Originally posted by Eagler
watch ur buds get blown to bits, then play mr. niceguy to those who did it... yep - great way to fight a war..
Well, those few jailers just insured hardened Iraqi resistance. they won't be so quick to surrender. Chances are now those that would contemplate surrendering will fight to the death, taking more coalition forces with them. Those coalition prisoners taken from now on are probably not going to survive their "treatments" under the Iraqis.
The key to any war is not as much how you feel about your enemy, but how your enemy feels about you. If they think of you as an invader/occupier and only there to treat them as cattle, guess what? They aren't going to play by your rules. They aren't going to cooperate.
We're going to continue to win the battles via body count (if that really matters). Seems we're going to lose this war, unfortunetly.
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Originally posted by NUKE
When was that proven?
It's in the US Army's report on the incident.
What about throwing people into wood chippers,cutting out tongues, chopping off limbs, sending body parts to family members in trash bags, raping children in front of the parents, etc..? I didn't see you protesting any of that news.
I didn't see anyone supporting it or trying to rationalise it either.
Originally posted by capt. apathy
but my gut reaction is that, if this is true, I don't like it. what the hell is a military inteligence contractor? and why would we need to hire private companies to handle this work. is this just someone who we hire so we can distance ourselves from things that shouldn't be going on. should private companies be given authority to issue orders to our soldiers? my answer to that would have to be a big assed no.
Even more disturbing is that one of the two murders that the US Army is investigating was apparently commited by a "CIA contractor".
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
eally have to wonder if she (the reserve one star who was in charge of the prison) is not just attempting to redirect blame in a desperate attempt to CYA. I'm not saying that her excuses are totally implausable, just that it sounds real suspicious.
Ya know, I thought of that also. But that would mean that there is some kind of conspiracy between the General, her staff and the enlisted men directly involved in the abuses. I find that hard to believe. "I know lets make up a convoluted story that is easying disproven so we can torture some guys."...I don't buy it.
Originally posted Eagler
looks like we may have some bad apples ... pls point out an army that doesn't
Actually it looks like a policy enacted by someone vis-a-vis the miliary intelligence contractors. And I think that that is the most important issue here, and one that is being mostly ignored by the press. These enlisted men and officers that have been charged and reprimanded are reponsible for thier crimes, but they are starting to look like scapegoats as well.
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good point SaburoS,
was it Will Rogers who said "when you give a person a lesson in meanness, don't be suprised when they learn it." ?
or something to that effect, it seems to apply here.
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Originally posted by lada
Yes you are correct and i will give you classic example
before 1938
On czech lands close to german boarder
What part of the czech republic are you from? I have family in cesky tesin
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I can see rip's excuses now....
Iraq 2005
"People shouldn't condemn Americans, because Pinochet committed worse atrocities"
Iraq 2006
"People shouldn't condemn Americans, because Stalin committed worse atrocities"
Iraq 2008
"People shouldn't condemn Americans, because Pol Pot committed worse atrocities"
Iraq 2012
"People shouldn't condemn Americans, because Hitler committed worse atrocities"
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Originally posted by Duedel
The IKRK told the US authorities month ago!!! So this is definitly not a problem with bad apples its a big problem of ur sick government!
posted in rubuttal
[GENEVA (May 6, 8:44 am ADT) - The international Red Cross said Thursday it repeatedly demanded that U.S. officials correct problems in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison before recent revelations about the abuse of Iraqi inmates by American soldiers.
Spokeswoman Nada Doumani said she could not say the problems included "specifically" the abuse allegations made in the media in recent days. The U.S. authorities did fix some problems quickly and took longer to address other complaints, said Doumani, speaking from Amman, Jordan.
She declined to say whether the ICRC reports were the basis for the U.S. investigation begun in January after an American soldier reported prisoner abuses, but she noted that the reported abuses occurred last year - at a time when the ICRC was visiting and reporting on shortcomings at the prison.
An American soldier reported abuses, starting an American investigation... What are the time stamps on the photos in question Duedel? As "U.S. authorities did fix some problems quickly and took longer to address other complaints," according to the Red Cross.
Seems like your conclusion may have been hastey or possibly just prejudiced. 'Bad apples' follows the facts a bit better in my view.
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So all of these federal agents who are going in and out of these prisons, are seen by eyewitnesses participating, encouraging, and complimenting the efficacy of this, they are guiltless. It's just a little discipline problem in the army?
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People with knowledge of the "proceedings" who did nothing are accessories.
I don't know where you came up with "guiltless"
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good point SaburoS
on the flip side, maybe we will be less likely to take prisoners..
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Originally posted by Eagler
good point SaburoS
on the flip side, maybe we will be less likely to take prisoners..
Yes maybe we will just start executing them in the streets like you would like us to.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Yes maybe we will just start executing them in the streets like you would like us to. People like you make me sick.
Better watch the personal attacks or you'll get banned again.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Better watch the personal attacks or you'll get banned again.
Hey for once it aint me LOL.
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Originally posted by txmx
Hey for once it aint me LOL.
You were banned before?:confused:
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Better watch the personal attacks or you'll get banned again.
This entire situation has gotten my emotions a little high, i will edit it a little. Banned again? what are you talking about?
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Originally posted by Eagler
good point SaburoS
on the flip side, maybe we will be less likely to take prisoners..
At the cost of more coalition lives as those that would of surrendered will fight on to the death.
All because of some absolutely STUPID IDIOTIC actions by several bad apples.
In this war, we're not going to recover from this, unfortunetly.
Oh, Don't let anyone kid themselves as to how damaging this is. This is going to affect other battles we're fighting in Afghanistan as well.
We're going to lose a lot of good people in needless, extended fighting because of this.
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Stabby. Look at the utter revulsion of the treatment of those prisoners in the US and around the world. I would be stunned to hear that this was some sort of 'institutionalised practice'. Because a few people behave abysmally and the pictures are splashed all over the press there is created a conception that this is a practice which is condoned or even encouraged.
People who think that way are daft.
Now, I don't think for one minute that most right minded Americans would blame the whole of the Iraqi people for the way those 4 US contractors were treated by a few. That is the reverse of the coin.
As Lasz said earlier, war can brutalize some people, and with hundreds of thousands of soldiers running around in Iraq, you are going to find some bad eggs.
Ravs
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tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.
1. a) Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b) An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
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Originally posted by ravells
Stabby. Look at the utter revulsion of the treatment of those prisoners in the US and around the world. I would be stunned to hear that this was some sort of 'institutionalised practice'. Because a few people behave abysmally and the pictures are splashed all over the press there is created a conception that this is a practice which is condoned or even encouraged.
People who think that way are daft.
Now, I don't think for one minute that most right minded Americans would blame the whole of the Iraqi people for the way those 4 US contractors were treated by a few. That is the reverse of the coin.
As Lasz said earlier, war can brutalize some people, and with hundreds of thousands of soldiers running around in Iraq, you are going to find some bad eggs.
Ravs
Sure there are bad eggs, so why have they done nothing with the bad eggs in the private sector over there.
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That is an interesting point, Stabby. As private contractors - and I find that concept laughable, given that these people are wearing army uniforms - are they subject to military law?
If 'private contractors' who wear the uniform and are given weapons are not subject to the same discipline and punishment the rest of the forces are subject to, then why not make the whole Army, Airforce and Navy 'private contractors'?
These people ought to be punished for two reasons:
First, it will give some credibility back to the US
Second, it might save some lives.
If they are not being punished there is something seriously rotten in the state of Denmark.
Ravs
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Steve, You care nothing, I know, but I you for this:
Thank you Naso. Although I am opinionated and often beligerent, I do care what people think about me.
More importantly, I care about what people outside of the U.S think about my country. We want the world to be with us, so we need to be as close to being above reproach as a country can get in this matter. If this is a somewhat isolated incident, fine, punish the offenders.... but we need to make damned sure that it does not happen again.
If it happens once, it's mistake. If it continues, it's a policy. I cannot abide my country behaving this way as a matter of policy.
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These people ought to be punished for two reasons:
I agree with your reason Ravs, please allow me to add another:
3. because what they did was WRONG.
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Originally posted by Steve
Thank you Naso. Although I am opinionated and often beligerent, I do care what people think about me.
More importantly, I care about what people outside of the U.S think about my country. We want the world to be with us, so we need to be as close to being above reproach as a country can get in this matter. If this is a somewhat isolated incident, fine, punish the offenders.... but we need to make damned sure that it does not happen again.
If it happens once, it's mistake. If it continues, it's a policy. I cannot abide my country behaving this way as a matter of policy.
Steve,
You got my respect sir ~S~! Kudos for your statements here.
I feel the exact same way about our country.
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Steve. Yes, and especially that.
Ravs
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It was kind of ironic that one of the reservists charged in these instances claimed that he had little or no training and was therefore not culpable for his actions. The irony was that his job in civilian life was a prison guard.
The comment insinuating that having something happen to your buds is some justification for twisted vigilante reprisal makes the jailer no better than the jailed.
In a civilized society, the leadership allowing this to happen under their watch must be held openly accountable - swiftly. They are obvious failures as leaders. Not so much for the foreign image of America, but for the soul of Americans.
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It was kind of ironic that one of the reservists charged in these instances claimed that he had little or no training and was therefore not culpable for his actions.
I hadn't heard this. I don't know whether to laugh or be sickened by this. I know I'm asking the obvious here, but since when is training required(beyond being brought up in a civilized society) for common sense and human decency?
Were I this guys parents, I'd be emabarrassed by his words as well as his actions.
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Naso, Ravs, Saburo!!!!!!
guys.
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Originally posted by Steve
Were I this guys parents, I'd be emabarrassed by his words as well as his actions.
agreed, quite a slam on your own upbringing, to try to use that out.
so what if you wheren't trained to know this wasn't allowed? who the hell trained them to think that it was?
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An example must be made here, an example that will show the arab world, and the world in general, that the US government and the US Armed Forces do not condone nor tolerate this form of conduct. These people have dishonored their uniforms and they have brought shame to this nation and to all those who wear the uniform with honor, courage, and selflessness.
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Steve I knew I liked you for a good reason YOU make good sense from time to time sir!
I am with you 100% on your statement.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Are you justifying their behavior? If the administration is too ****ing incompetant to stop their people from killing unarmed prisoners, then Bush needs to be dragged out of the Oval Office kicking and screaming like the spoiled crybaby **** he is and thrown in a cage for little children to mock.
We are just as bad as the Saddam's goons now, and we have people justifying the behavior, just like Saddam did.
Good grief calm DOWN. Ya know, like it or not, there are a number of IDIOTS who manage to get into the military. Blame Bush all you want, your wasting oxygen.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Good grief calm DOWN. Ya know, like it or not, there are a number of IDIOTS who manage to get into the military. Blame Bush all you want, your wasting oxygen.
It just really bothers me to hear people defending the actions of these scumbags.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
It just really bothers me to hear people defending the actions of these scumbags.
These scumbags as you call them are American service men and women .
People who chose to wear the uniform of there country.
Did they screw the pooch on this one YOU BET They did and at the worst possible time.
But undertsand that they are young people in a hostile country watching friends die every day!
Dont you dare judge them unless you are prepared to put on there uniform and go there and do THERE job.
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We are just as bad as the Saddam's goons now, and we have people justifying the behavior, just like Saddam did.
Yes, you are sooo right! We have a very few exceptions who are going to face criminal charges and who are being met w/ scorn by their peers and almost all of the U.S. and they are just like Saddam's goons. I agree, forcing them into humiliating poses and taking pictures is at LEAST as evil as murdering them by throwing them in a wood chipper. It's much worse than raping women while the rest of the family is forced to watch. Oh man, we are MUCH worse than Saddam's goons. I bet we humiliated at least 30, maybe even 100 Iraqi troops. Humiliating this many people is at LEAST as bad as the 100's of thousands murdered under the Saddam regime. And much worse than all the raping and maiming that took place.
Remember the citizens that were recently tortured, killed, mutilated, then had their bodies hung from a bridge? Yes, the Iraqi's in the pictures are MUCH worse off, those guys hanging from the bridge got off easy.
:aok
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Originally posted by txmx
These scumbags as you call them are American service men and women .
People who chose to wear the uniform of there country.
Did they screw the pooch on this one YOU BET They did and at the worst possible time.
But undertsand that they are young people in a hostile country watching friends die every day!
Dont you dare judge them unless you are prepared to put on there uniform and go there and do THERE job.
It is THEIR job.(sorry for being a grammar nazi). I will judge them for their actions. I pay their salarys, as do millions of other americans. When they stoop to the level of the enemy they become no better. They are scum, and anyone who defends them is an idiot with pinko colored glasses on.
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It's 'grammar'....sorry, but just had to point that out ;)
Ravs
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just a "few" exceptions were doing this? bull.
"...the practice against Iraqis was commonplace."
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=2ID2LKYLIBDOACRBAEZSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5073163
and more.....
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=2ID2LKYLIBDOACRBAEZSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5073940
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Originally posted by ravells
It's 'grammar'....sorry, but just had to point that out ;)
Ravs
NOOOOOOOOO.
BTW rummy just ammited it was more then commonplace. That is was practice. Under a hail of fire rumsfeld chants from the gallery.
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BTW rummy just ammited it was more then commonplace. That is was practice.
If this was common practice and known about by the US Army then that is shocking indeed and the people at the top will have to take responsibility for it.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
If this was common practice and known about by the US Army then that is shocking indeed and the people at the top will have to take responsibility for it.
Ravs
Red Cross has been warning us about it for a while now.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040507/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_redcross_dc_1
And now rumsfeld said he had prior information about it, but withheld it from congress.
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So George Bush's apology was not because it was happening, but because they were caught?
Ravs
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"So George Bush's apology was .... "
Damage control. Not that it will do much but he had no choice left really. IMO he should have apologized for what had transpired not to King Abdullah from Jordan but to the Iraqi people and the day before during his interview on Arabic tv.
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Originally posted by ravells
So George Bush's apology was not because it was happening, but because they were caught?
Ravs
Clap, clap, clap, seams u got it!
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
good point SaburoS,
was it Will Rogers who said "when you give a person a lesson in meanness, don't be suprised when they learn it." ?
or something to that effect, it seems to apply here.
It would be fairly difficult to give anyone raised in Arabic culture a 'lesson in meanness'.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by GScholz
Examples need to be made ... and I'm not talking about Leavenworth.
Make them read the AH BBS OT forums every day for a year and reply to every thread with perfect grammar?
Put them in the field during Norwegian military field exercises (using live ammunition) with big yellow and red suits that say "I am a simulated MG3 target! MG3 gunners hit me for 30 days leave in Hawaii!"?
Make them eat lutfisk?
Option #2 is probably the most humane. :)
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
It is THEIR job.(sorry for being a grammar nazi). I will judge them for their actions. I pay their salarys, as do millions of other americans. When they stoop to the level of the enemy they become no better. They are scum, and anyone who defends them is an idiot with pinko colored glasses on.
Being as you were never in the military You wont understand that these people have officers in charge of them.
I find it hard to believe that the officers did not know what was going on in the prison.
Crap rolls down hill and at the bottom of the hill Is where you will find the inlisted man or woman.
In this case very young people who are in the thick of it ! They see there buddys getting shot and killed everyday because again they are there.
So It Is easy for us to set here in our nice little houses and judge these young people who have been thrust into a very different world than any of us can imagine.
Now dont get me wrong they acted unprofessional but you can not compare with what they did to the killing in Fallujah with the four contractors being hung and so forth.
Also we do not know who these "prisoners" are.
Are they just regular old POW's?
Or are they some of the people responsable for the four deaths in Fallujah?
Again I can ony imagine how ones perspective of the enemy might change when one is actually there fighting them(no love lost i would think).
Aslo remember the old saying dont believe everything you read and only half of what you see.
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Yeah, and it's gonna get worse http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20040507/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_video_dc_1
At least he didn't pass the buck, he took responsibilty, but couldn't answer an important question.
"Rumsfeld sought to have military brass accompanying him answer the question, but McCain said, "Secretary Rumsfeld, in all due respect, you've got to answer this question. ... This is a pretty simple, straightforward question. Who was in charge of the interrogations?"The defense secretary didn't have a direct answer, although he noted "that the guards are trained to guard people" and not to serve as interrogators. There have been allegations that military intelligence officers urged prison guards to "soften up" the prisoners.
"McCain said later that it "would be premature" to call for Rumsfeld's removal. But, McCain added, "I still need to know who was in charge of the guards who committed these obscene acts."
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take them out and shoot them.
Eh? You drunk tonite or what?
Your a bit over the top on this one...
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Court-martial the soldiers. If found guilty, even of just humiliating prisoners, take them out and shoot them. Court-martial their officers. If found guilty of "looking the other way" or not being able to control their troops, take them out and shoot them.
I agree the punishment needs to swift and harsh, I respectfully disagree w/ the death sentences though.
Exception: there are several deaths of Iraqi prisoners being investigated. Any of those that turn out to be homicide should have their perpetrators summarily shot, on national television.
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Exception: there are several deaths of Iraqi prisoners being investigated. Any of those that turn out to be homicide should have their perpetrators summarily shot
I can agree with this. But why shot? Electric chair maybe?
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I thought shot because I assumed this was the military's way of executing people. If I am incorrect, please forgive my ignorance of this matter.
I think electrocution would be nice and dramatic. It is fact that public execution is the most effective crime deterrent around.
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Originally posted by Steve
I thought shot because I assumed this was the military's way of executing people. If I am incorrect, please forgive my ignorance of this matter.
I
The last American military execution was by hanging.
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And I hardly doubt That making prisoners
play twister neekid is worthy of killing someone over.
The military will find them a nice room at FT Levonworth Kansas and it aint no country club from what I hear.
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Originally posted by GScholz
But is it an effective deterrent considering that these soldiers are in Iraq where they are being killed or wounded by the thousands. Leavenworth may be preferable to some.
Perhapes.
My stand Is we should have never sent our young men and women over there in the first place.
Like I have said before 5.000.00 Iraqi's
are not worth one single American life.
It Is there country and as long as they where bnot envading someone else or saddumb was not pointing missles at someone we should have stayed out of there.
Just my opinion.
Now Osama Bin Laden theres another story all together.
We should be on that guy like an Alabama tick.
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And also bear this in mind you send young people over to another country and ask em to get down and dirty with scumbuckets dont be so suprised if they do just that !
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Originally posted by GScholz
Court-martial the soldiers. If found guilty, even of just humiliating prisoners, take them out and shoot them. Court-martial their officers. If found guilty of "looking the other way" or not being able to control their troops, take them out and shoot them.
This is not a troll, this is my honest opinion. These servicemen have done far greater harm to your cause and the credibility and honor of your nation and the Coalition than the people they mistreated ... or any Iraqi/Arab for that matter. It's about time you made up your minds on whether you're at war or not. IMHO you must send a clear message to all servicemen in the Coalition that such disregard for discipline and protocol is totally unacceptable, and that such actions will be punished in a most severe way. This includes the mercs as well ... you don't even need to court-marshal them. A quick tribunal can decide their fate.
Whether you win or lose Iraq is decided by your actions now ... not by those of your enemies.
IMHO.
You've GOT to be ******* trolling. Do you even know what the offenses are?
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Humiliating prisoners is NOT a violation of the Geneva Convention. Homocide is dealt with accordingly ALREADY... please name the one your talking about. Torture I agree with, forbidden and carries heavy penalties under a MORALLY SUPERIOR form of justice called the UCMJ. Action was already underway to deal with those who committed the crimes. HOWEVER... the "Torture" your referring to does not in any way shape form or fashion lend itself to execution.
Get real G, your hate is really showing.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It should be expected ... and dealt with. Such behavior is unprofessional and unworthy an army that claims moral superiority over the people they fight. It IS unprofessional and unworthy of the US Army and all that it stands for.
IMHO.
Well It's nice to know that YOU know what the US Army stands for LOL.
Because I for one have no idea what the
Army of Norway stands for.
And ya know something I dont think anyone would disagree that we "America" did not ask to be attacked on 9-11 and have every turbin wearing terrorist in the world wanting to kill us.
But they did and now they are and will continue to pay a huge price for there act of mass murder.
So a few dudes were treated badly during interigations BOO HOO welcome to the real world.
The imformation obtained from these poor old POW's might save alot of coalition lives.
Hells bells I was treated as bad If not worse In Basic Training.
Now the fellows that died in custody yes there should be heads a rolling on that but the other stuff is getting blown way out of propotion.
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Originally posted by txmx
Well It's nice to know that YOU know what the US Army stands for LOL.
Because I for one have no idea what the
Army of Norway stands for.
And ya know something I dont think anyone would disagree that we "America" did not ask to be attacked on 9-11 and have every turbin wearing terrorist in the world wanting to kill us.
But they did and now they are and will continue to pay a huge price for there act of mass murder.
So a few dudes were treated badly during interigations BOO HOO welcome to the real world.
The imformation obtained from these poor old POW's might save alot of coalition lives.
Hells bells I was treated as bad If not worse In Basic Training.
Now the fellows that died in custody yes there should be heads a rolling on that but the other stuff is getting blown way out of propotion.
So you were sodomized during basic training? Pics?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Humiliating prisoners IS a violation of the Geneva Convention.
Proof please.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Again, it is not about the prisoners, but the effect this has on your war effort.
True It came at a real crappy time thats for sure.
And In a region that already does not like or trust us It was and incredibly stupid thing to do.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
So you were sodomized during basic training? Pics?
Where is the proof these cats where butt loved by anything but eachother?
Pic's Please.
And Yes I caught my Drill Sgts Jump booy right in the crack of my arse and it broke my tail bone.
You know why?
Largely because my attitiude was alot like yours is .
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Originally posted by Tumor
Proof please.
Killing prisoners is. There have been 2 homocides already, and 10 more are under investigation.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Killing prisoners is. There have been 2 homocides already, and 10 more are under investigation.
And you know this as Gods honest fact because you are there right?
Like I said before believe nothing of what you read and half of what you see.
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Originally posted by txmx
And you know this as Gods honest fact because you are there right?
Like I said before believe nothing of what you read and half of what you see.
So you believe nothing wrong is going on over there. That it is all just done by the liberal media and pentagon to stir up hatred of america to bring jesus's next comming right?
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To be honest, the worst thing we have going against our war effort is our unbelievable restraint and pandering to everyone's special feelings.
Any other country would have obliderated areas where insurgents still operated in , regardless of civilians.
Maybe we need to fight dirty, like the Arabs, in order to be respected by them, who knows. Maybe we need to be more ruthless than the people we are fighting. If your going to fight a war, fight a war and get it over with as fast as possible.
As for treatment of prisoners.... it pissed me off that a few people acted like idiots gave fuel to the fire of US haters.
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Originally posted by NUKE
To be honest, the worst thing we have going against our war effort is our unbelievable restraint and pandering to everyone's special feelings.
Any other country would have obliderated areas where insurgents still operated in , regardless of civilians.
Well that is complete and utter bull****.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
So you believe nothing wrong is going on over there. That it is all just done by the liberal media and pentagon to stir up hatred of america to bring jesus's next comming right?
No I believe that they were treated poorly.
But so freekin what!
Our people have been treated just as bad If not worse remember Jessica Lynch?
She was raped while in there "care".
You can sit in your house and say what you would and would not do.
But untill you pack the gear to join up and go over there and do there job you just look silly judging them.
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Originally posted by NUKE
To be honest, the worst thing we have going against our war effort is our unbelievable restraint and pandering to everyone's special feelings.
Any other country would have obliderated areas where insurgents still operated in , regardless of civilians.
Maybe we need to fight dirty, like the Arabs, in order to be respected by them, who knows. Maybe we need to be more ruthless than the people we are fighting. If your going to fight a war, fight a war and get it over with as fast as possible.
As for treatment of prisoners.... it pissed me off that a few people acted like idiots gave fuel to the fire of US haters.
Too late Nuke Rumsfeld was on TV apologising to everyone today.
Its on the downward slope to that craphole called public opinion.
There is or should not be anything PC about war .
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Originally posted by txmx
No I believe that they were treated poorly.
But so freekin what!
Our people have been treated just as bad If not worse remember Jessica Lynch?
She was raped while in there "care".
You can sit in your house and say what you would and would not do.
But untill you pack the gear to join up and go over there and do there job you just look silly judging them.
Are you still justifying their actions? wow, just wow. And now you are comparing jessica lynch to murdered pows. Like I said Mr. Black, i and many other Americans pay their salarys. We have every right to judge them, and they will be judged by a jury of their peers. Nothing gives any human the right to treat their fellow man like subhumans.
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Yep should have been told to the NVA 35 years ago too I dont think the held to the geneva convention .
Where was the outcry from the world then?
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Originally posted by txmx
Yep should have been told to the NVA 35 years ago too I dont think the held to the geneva convention .
Where was the outcry from the world then?
That is then this is now, you are just avoiding the arguement.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Are you still justifying their actions? wow, just wow. And now you are comparing jessica lynch to murdered pows. Like I said Mr. Black, i and many other Americans pay their salarys. We have every right to judge them, and they will be judged by a jury of their peers. Nothing gives any human the right to treat their fellow man like subhumans.
And you are not nor will you ever be one of there peer's.
Ask Jessica how she would compare the treatment.
Oh thats right she dont remember thank God But the Drs knew she had been raped.
And I have yet to see PROOF of any American soldier killing any detainee in prison.
You are simply going by what Is being fead to the gulible public wich there is a large audience.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Are you arguing that the US Army should behave like the NVA?
Yeah they should have and they would had better luck at killin them.
But my point was where was the whinning about human rights when American Pows were being treated horribly in S.E Asia?
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Originally posted by txmx
And you are not nor will you ever be one of there peer's.
Ask Jessica how she would compare the treatment.
Oh thats right she dont remember thank God But the Drs knew she had been raped.
And I have yet to see PROOF of any American soldier killing any detainee in prison.
You are simply going by what Is being fead to the gulible public wich there is a large audience.
The pentagon has stated it so. Mr. Rumsfeld has stated it so under oath. I have posted articles of the press releases from the pentagon about it. Stop sticking your head in the sand. If you really think jesus saves maybe you should follow his teachings. What happened to lynch does not give us the right to do the same.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Are you arguing that the US Army should behave like the NVA?
I think what he is saying is that what the US soldiers did was bad and a mistake.
I think what he is saying is that you rarely hear outcries fom abuse by other countries who do FAR worse in their normal operating mode. It sort of gets piled on Americans because it's easy to hate us I guess.
Remember when Saddam tortured the British and American pilots in the 1st gulf war? Ruptered their eardrums with penciles, and generally beat the watermelon out of them, then put them on TV? Didn't hear a world outcry nor did I hear that Arabs should apologize for anything.
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When I hear that "the US owes the Arab world an apology" I want to kill someone or kick the dog.
What in the hell do the we owe them? It's a war and this happened and it will be delt with. We don't owe anyone an apology other than the prisoners.
If the "Arab world" is looking for an apology, they can go screw off. What do they ever apologize for?
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Like a fine wine you need to seasone a bit more before you understand the real world and the evils that awaite the weak.
I truely believe your heart is in the right place And by golly I got to admire your convictions.
But I would bet you 10k that i could put you over there and in two weeks time you views would do a 180% turn.
IF anyone died at the hands of American guards let the UCMJ take care of it as It will trust me.
Do I feel soory for the prisoners that were made to stand there nude and with a leash around there kneck?
If they are inocent then hell yes I feel
for them and as an American offer my apology.
But If they were the thugs and killers how were killing my countrymen !
Then no I do not feel sorry one bit In fact I think they got offf easy.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I
I think what he is saying is that you rarely hear outcries fom abuse by other countries who do FAR worse in their normal operating mode. It sort of gets piled on Americans because it's easy to hate us I guess.
It gets piled on America because we are not Iraq. We are not the soviet union, we are not north vienam. We are the US of ****ing A. We do not mistreat our prisoners, we stand for what is right in this world. When did it become in fashion to defend people that represent us to allow our name to be tarnished? These people are scum, they will get punished, and i truely hope that the people that commanded them and all others that knew it was going on but said nothing are punished fairly as well.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Either you are the good guys or you are not. Which is it?
We are a country of survivors neither good nor bad but we simply go on.
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Originally posted by txmx
We are a country of survivors neither good nor bad but we simply go on.
You are an idiot.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
It gets piled on America because we are not Iraq. We are not the soviet union, we are not north vienam. We are the US of ****ing A. We do not mistreat our prisoners, we stand for what is right in this world. When did it become in fashion to defend people that represent us to allow our name to be tarnished? These people are scum, they will get punished, and i truely hope that the people that commanded them and all others that knew it was going on but said nothing are punished fairly as well.
And you sir there are no words to describe.
You call our soldiers scum but you refuse to wear the uniform yourself.
Sorry but that just stinks.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
You are an idiot.
That took alot of thought LOL.
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Originally posted by txmx
And you sir there are no words to describe.
You call our soldiers scum but you refuse to wear the uniform yourself.
Sorry but that just stinks.
I live in a free country that does not require military service unlike your national socialist paradise. I am done arguing, you have no concept of reality.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I guess you meant 180 degrees. With 180% I would almost end up where I started.
I hope you understand that just like Vietnam, this is a war of public opinion ... and so far you're losing it.
That's what I mean by the US being held back by public opinion. We need to just prosecute the war in as leathal and effective a manner as possible.
It's sickening how the US military is restrained by public opinion. We need to learn from Israel.....just be ruthless to our enemies until they are all dead or in prison.
No other country on earth is held back by public opinion when they go to war. War is war and needs to be fought and won, not debated.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
I live in a free country that does not require military service unlike your national socialist paradise. I am done arguing, you have no concept of reality.
Yeah ur lucky I dont run this country.
Because every 18 year old would owe there uncle sam 3 years of service.
It Is the least a MAN can do to honor those who died to give us this great country.
But then there will always be the select few who think they are too good to serve yet can call our troops scum before they have even been to trial.
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Originally posted by NUKE
That's what I mean by the US being held back by public opinion. We need to just prosecute the war in as leathal and effective a manner as possible.
It's sickening how the US military is restrained by public opinion. We need to learn from Israel.....just be ruthless to our enemies until they are all dead or in prison.
No other country on earth is held back by public opinion when they go to war. War is war and needs to be fought and won, not debated.
Yep all this public opinion is costing way too many fine young Americans lives.
And I am sorry that just pisses me off.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It is the public opinion of the Iraqi People you're fighting for. If you lose them you lose the war in Iraq ... and a lot of lives.
You know what I dont think we ever had the Iraqi people on or side!
I mean 5 minutes after we kicked saddumbs butt out of Bagdad they wanted us gone.
Should have been chasing Osama Bin Laden on his Camel named skippy across the desert insteed. just my opinion.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It is the public opinion of the Iraqi People you're fighting for. If you lose them you lose the war in Iraq ... and a lot of lives.
And dude one old Vet to another we probably see things much closer than you think LOL.
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Oh goody, you can google. Well I can too G.
The United States is only bound to the Geneva Convention with contracted parties and with non-contracted parties who accept
Geneva’s terms and conditions. Therefore, no, the United States is not bound to the Geneva Convention
Your point... is moot.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It is the public opinion of the Iraqi People you're fighting for. If you lose them you lose the war in Iraq ... and a lot of lives.
hmmmm, I guess when you compaired the fight for public opinion in the Iraq war to Vietnam, you threw me off. Vietnam was a war lost due to public opinion in the US. The military was restrained and placed in check an dunable to do it's job.
The same thing is happening in Iraq, on a smaller scale.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Either you are the good guys or you are not. Which is it?
We are simply the guys you hate... I'm out. Pointless conversation.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Oh goody, you can google. Well I can too G.
The United States is only bound to the Geneva Convention with contracted parties and with non-contracted parties who accept
Geneva’s terms and conditions. Therefore, no, the United States is not bound to the Geneva Convention
Your point... is moot.
Yeppers forgot about that one your very right tumor.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If that is the case you should cut your losses and leave ... but that will lead to an Iraqi civil war, chaos and devastation ... and a Shiite fundamentalist Iraq. You'd never be forgiven by the Arabs, and Al Qaeda will get an unprecedented influx of recruits.
yep a danged if ya do and danged if ya dont situation huh.
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The bodies of three dead Iraqi prisoners of war lie in the bed of a truck in Baghdad, after they were killed by U.S. MPs in an uprising at Abu Ghraib prison late last year, according to a soldier from the 870th MP (Military Police) unit that supplied this photograph to Reuters. Three U.S. military police who served at Abu Ghraib said on May 6, 2004 that they had witnessed unreported cases of prisoner abuse and that the practice against Iraqis was commonplace. Photo by Reuters (Handout)
Notice it says killed in an uprising.
Just a small detail that has failed to get much press coverage.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I assume you can read?
ARTICLE 2
In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.
The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.
My point stands.
Ok.. I'll respond knowing full well the stupidity of the endevour. Good for you, the Geneva Convention says so.. Bad for you, we the US are not full signators to the agreement. So choke on it Ameerika hater, we are bound only by an organization's concept, not our own will. Further... there's not ****all you can do about it but continue your whiney, sarcastic, uneducated, self-centered, trolling diatribe of hate directed at the United States. I will no longer stoop to attempting to converse with the likes of you GSholze. Your stance is clear, I understand it fully. Further... I find you disgusting and worth no more thought than a common cockroach. Goodbye.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Ok.. I'll respond knowing full well the stupidity of the endevour. Good for you, the Geneva Convention says so.. Bad for you, we the US are not full signators to the agreement. So choke on it Ameerika hater, we are bound only by an organization's concept, not our own will. Further... there's not ****all you can do about it but continue your whiney, sarcastic, uneducated, self-centered, trolling diatribe of hate directed at the United States. I will no longer stoop to attempting to converse with the likes of you GSholze. Your stance is clear, I understand it fully. Further... I find you disgusting and worth no more thought than a common cockroach. Goodbye.
Tumor is just another ignoramous apologizing for the acts those scumbags have done in iraq. I have no idea why you are support those jerks and not the troops that have done no wrongs.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Tumor is just another ignoramous apologizing for the acts those scumbags have done in iraq. I have no idea why you are support those jerks and not the troops that have done no wrongs.
Try a little conceptual reading and you'll find I've not apologized at all for the actions of a few degenerates who took the law into thier own hands. In fact... I agree with the FACT that those responsible, INCLUDING those in thier chain of command should be held responsible ACCORDING TO LAW.. NOT the calling of some snot-nosed Norwegian goofball. Calling for execution is by and large an exercise in stupidity at best, thats the nicest way I have of putting it. I HAVE access to, and I HAVE READ the detailed investigation report(s) (that, oh by the way, were begun long before this so-called outrage came to public knowledge) that covers the allegations. NOTHING that has been brought to public knowledge compares even in a minute manner, those actions conducted against the soldiers of the United States, by those you would compare with these "humiliated" prisoners. NOTHING that has NOT been brought to public knowledge compares.
Want to play the name-game? Ok fine. Me an ignoramus? Well, I have news for you, I am not ignorant of the content of the investigation(s). In fact, I am intimately familiar with it(them). You sir, are in fact ignorant of the FACTS.
Who's the "ignoramus"?
Do you even know the definition of ignorant?
T.
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You are right, i am at fault. I appologize.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
You are right, i am at fault. I appologize.
STOP BEING REASONABLE!!!... it's so freeking wierd on this BB I'm liable to have a breakdown in rational thought!
:)
Tumor
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I am sorry but I just can't help myself, so here goes.
I am appalled as well at the complete stupidity of the soldiers responsable for these moronic acts.................HOWEVER. .............
I do not remember recieving an appology from the Iraqis or the Islamic extremist groups for killing, dragging, mutilating and hanging the dead bodies of our soldiers and innocent contractors from abridge like cow meat!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Iraqi prisonors children will have to live with knowing there fathers genetalia was photographed and they were humiliated!!! oh no, woah is them to have to live with that kinda horror...wha wha.. while our innocent civilian contractors and soldiers children will have to know that there fathers died painfully and were tortured and treated worse than animals!!!!!!!!!!!
Dont even bother suggesting I encourage or condone what happened at the prison cause it makes me sick, however (again) I dont want to lose sight of what kind of people (word used loosely) we are dealing with!
Kill em all and bring our people home!!!!! FBRaptor
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Raptor... I agree... I take umbrage that people call this torture.
I'm worried though. Rumsfeld says the activity was worse than what was shown...I'll be outraged if there is any real torture going on. Not that I feel anything much for the Iraqi's, I just expect our people to behave better than the savages we are at war with.
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Stabby, I really cannot help but wonder... where was your righteous wrath as the bodies of Americans were being hung from bridges after suffering torture, mutilation and murder?
Did you keep that feeling secret? That feeling that said: "good, this will cause more trouble for Bush!"
Do you harbor such unreasonable hatred for the President that you take perverse satisfaction in what the Iraqis do to their prisoners?
Where is your anger about this? your outrage?
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
I am sorry but I just can't help myself, so here goes.
I am appalled as well at the complete stupidity of the soldiers responsable for these moronic acts.................HOWEVER. .............
I do not remember recieving an appology from the Iraqis or the Islamic extremist groups for killing, dragging, mutilating and hanging the dead bodies of our soldiers and innocent contractors from abridge like cow meat!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Iraqi prisonors children will have to live with knowing there fathers genetalia was photographed and they were humiliated!!! oh no, woah is them to have to live with that kinda horror...wha wha.. while our innocent civilian contractors and soldiers children will have to know that there fathers died painfully and were tortured and treated worse than animals!!!!!!!!!!!
Dont even bother suggesting I encourage or condone what happened at the prison cause it makes me sick, however (again) I dont want to lose sight of what kind of people (word used loosely) we are dealing with!
Kill em all and bring our people home!!!!! FBRaptor
Raptor... a few (very few) of the abuses committed were in fact very deserving of harsh penalties. Non compare even slightly to atrocities committed against US interests, however we do not condone sinking to the level of those we carry the fight against.
T.
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So FBrapter wants to kill everyone in Iraq and Steve admits he has no love for Iraqis. :)
Well guys, I didn't originally disapprove of the Iraq invasion, but there still aren't any WMD so Saddam was not (and is now not) an imminent threat to the U.S.
Fighting for 'Iraqi freedom' doesn't mean killing everyone that you don't care about anyway, so why don't we just declare a victory and pull out?
There are no other reasons left of those originally put forth to justify this occupation except the so-called freedom of Iraqis. Saddam and his henchmen couldn't harm us before and sure can't do it now. I'm truly concerned about losing more American lives and I think we're breeding new Iraqi terrorists who had no hatred for America before.
Every day another Iraqi (and Arab ally) becomes as enraged about a family member, friend or countryman being killed, injured or mistreated as much as any American or American ally in Iraq becomes enraged by the same. People will pass on their rage to their children. We are only setting ourselves as a common target for their common rage to bring harm to those they believe hurt their family and friends.
It doesn't matter if they are ideologically or factually correct in their hatred - Only their perception of who caused the pain. Ideology goes out the window when you or yours are killed, hurt or abused, regardless of your nationality, skin color or religion.
There will always be someone like Osama bin Laden or Yasser Arafat willing to step in to give them a rifle or bomb and a target to complete their revenge.
Look at the history of the middle-east and the Israeli/Palestinian quagmire. The resentment and hatred on both sides runs generations deep. Millions of people hating other people and passing their hatred on to their children.
I spent 8 months in Vietnam and 3 months in a hospital and I'm still not sure why. If you truly believe in the cause of Iraqi freedom. then quit your job tomorrow (you too Ripsnort) and double-time your little gung-ho butt down to the recruiting center and get your gung-ho little butt into a war zone. We'll see just how gung-ho you are after that. Post a copy of those recruitment papers here this week.
If you're too old, then quit anyway and become a contractor to wash dishes, clean latrines or any form of support function for the troops in Iraq. If you are too young or not fit enough to to do it, then send all your money to Iraq.
Remember... this is not about the money. You should sell your house and cars and all your property to pay your way over there because you believe in the cause.
If you are unwilling to do that, then you have to start asking yourself just what the hell are my fellow countrymen and women still doing there? I'm getting disillusioned at who I thought would be the better president in the last election. I wish there were someone else to choose from other than the current crop. Are these candidates the best America can up with? I'm embarrassed by both of them.
Let the Iraqis have Iraq today, not tomorrow. They can fight it out among themselves for control. I don't want to see one more American or coalition country national or Iraqi killed or hurt in Iraq. Enough of this nonsense. Iraq is no threat to America.
Let's move on to find Osama bin Laden. Now there's a target I can get excited about. We have enough troops in Iraq now to lock hands at the Afghan border and walk across it for heaven's sake.
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Very interesting conversation, some good opinions and a bunch of s****.
My big to the guys that have faced the facts with a good sense of reality, and mantaining a cool way.
Blame to the ones which have fallen in rethoric, stupid excuses, non requested defence; one in particular saying all, and the contrary of all..... that's not the way to be useful to your country, IMHO
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Originally posted by Steve
Stabby, I really cannot help but wonder... where was your righteous wrath as the bodies of Americans were being hung from bridges after suffering torture, mutilation and murder?
Did you keep that feeling secret? That feeling that said: "good, this will cause more trouble for Bush!"
Do you harbor such unreasonable hatred for the President that you take perverse satisfaction in what the Iraqis do to their prisoners?
Where is your anger about this? your outrage?
I had plenty of anger towards that, but those were not americans doing the torture and mutilation. I never made justifications for those piece's of ****s actions, why do you try and justify the crimes our troops have done. You are avoiding the arguement when you bring what happened in fallujah. Americans are not expected to do this. Crazy religious nut bags in the middle east are. How can i be outraged about something that i expected to happen. I had no idea that we would be doing a bit of the old ultra violence ourselves to POW's. Now i am going to quote myself ripsnort style.
It gets piled on America because we are not Iraq. We are not the soviet union, we are not north vienam. We are the US of ****ing A. We do not mistreat our prisoners, we stand for what is right in this world. When did it become in fashion to defend people that represent us to allow our name to be tarnished? These people are scum, they will get punished, and i truely hope that the people that commanded them and all others that knew it was going on but said nothing are punished fairly as well.
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Let me just make one retraction to my previous statement. I used the words "kill em all". I did not mean kill all Iraqis, I meant kill all of the Muslam Extremest that want to harm Americans or American interest.
As for the guy who said "Iraqi does not pose a threat to America". That is totaly wrong. Iraq, as is alot of the Middle East, is a breeding ground of hatred, terrorism and death!!!
We can not leave Iraq to continue to breed these terrorist groups!!!
What if we all left Iraq now, and in one year a terrorist group injects a lethal Bio-Hazzard into the water supply of Manhatton. Then 800,000 people of all ages die a horrible death. What if we then find out this terrorist group was founded, trained and based in Iraq. How would you feel about our need for a presence in the Middle East and Iraq then?? Our countries leaders would come under so much fire for not finding this threat ahead of time and stopping it where it festered.
Does this hit home yet? We (the USA and allies) simply just can not allow the Middle Eastern terrorism supporting countries to be left un-checked!! It is because of leaving the Muslam killers to do as they please that we lost thousands of innocent lives and the safety we felt at home on September, 11.
It is for these reasons that we must stay in the Middle East and Iraq untill the job at hand is done. FBRaptor
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I've seen a lot of valid points made, and a lot of ridiculous, emotional statements.
What's important is doing what's right. I believe the US should stand for good in the world.
I want to believe that if my president tells me and the rest of the world that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, he is telling the truth. Where are the weapons?
I don't know if everyone here realizes this, but there is NO evidence, NONE, that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11. Iraq and El Quaida were enemies. Now terrorists, including El Quaida, are active in Iraq and are killing Americans on an almost daily basis.
I am stunned that more people don't see the irony that no WMD were found in Iraq, while our ALLY Pakistan, was busy pedaling nuclear secrets to the rest of the "Axis of Evil." Why doesn't it worry people that North Korea has nuclear weapons and has threatened us over and over?
If it IS true that the invasion of Iraq was part of the "war on terrorism," it is proving to be a profound failure. The war on terrorism isn't going to be won on a conventional battlefield. It is going to be won by killing or capturing key terrorists and winning the hearts and minds of the people. We are losing the battle for hearts and minds, in a big, big way. Our actions, including the invasion of Iraq itself, are playing directly into the hands of Bin Laden.
To loudly decry the abuse of prisoners is not criticism of the military in general, (or do you think the President is anti-military?) The treatment of prisoners that we've been seeing IS unAmerican, at least in the America I hope I'm living in. And there is no question that the abuse of prisoners will lesson our chance of victory in Iraq and cost more American lives.
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why do you try and justify the crimes our troops have done.
Stabby, show me one.. just ONE place where I tried to justify the behavior of the troops we are discussing.. just ONE.
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Iraq and El Quaida were enemies.
uhhhhh Wrong.
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and Steve admits he has no love for Iraqis.
Did you deliberately take my words out of context to validate your point or did you misunderstand?
The comment I made was referring to Iraqi prisoners, ergo enemy of the U.S.. It was not directed at the whole populace of Iraq, my apology to you if I was unclear on this.
I choose not to love those that would kill me or any of my fellow countrymen in this conflict. Hope that clears things up.
My quote was:
Not that I feel anything much for the Iraqi's, I just expect our people to behave better than the savages we are at war with.
It seems clear to me as we are not at war with entirety of the Iraqi population, just those who still bear arms against us.
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Ummm 1 perverted woman and her buddies made a few Iraqis her "gimps"
those pics were torture for my eyes when I didnt turn away quick enough, but oh well Amerika is teh suxx0r!!!
come on Gixer say it you know you want in every post you make
"amereeka is teh suxxor,Boosh is teh Satan"
Who the devil is this Stabby anyway? Bout as sharp as a cinderblock so theres false advertising there
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"I do not remember recieving an appology from the Iraqis or the Islamic extremist groups for killing, dragging, mutilating and hanging the dead bodies of our soldiers and innocent contractors from abridge like cow meat!!!!!!!!!!!! "
True that was a terrible act however you can't expect appologies from the local population when you occupy another country. In a war that is totally unjustified.
You don't expect to see your fellow citizens being treated in such way in priisons from those that are suppose to of "liberated" you from such aggression in the first place.
Unfortunetly those images of prisioners are going to stick with the Iraq war and the US military for years to come. Just like the image of the burnt vietnamese girl running out of the napalmed village did from the vietnam war.
One wonders if the next most memoriable images of this war (which seems to be nothing but a war of choice and a complete disaster) in 20 years time will be those of the last US troops being airlifted from the embassy.
...-Gixer
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One wonders if the next most memoriable images of this war (which seems to be nothing but a war of choice and a complete disaster) in 20 years time will be those of the last US troops being airlifted from the embassy.
I bet you already have your fingers crossed.
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Fingers crossed? he creams his pants thinking about it. Oh yeah and waiting for Unca Joe to come back and save us all.
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Originally posted by Steve
uhhhhh Wrong.
Steve: Here's my evidence, where's yours...
"Even Colin Powell, in a recent press conference, admitted that, contrary to his assertions at the United Nations, he had no "smoking gun" proof of a link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda."Link to al-Qaeda (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16922)
"Bin Laden Labels Saddam an Infidel"
the source (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0211-11.htm)
Pre-war Saddam and al-Qaeda were enemies. Now, thanks to the US invasion, al-Qaeda is happily fighting in Iraq against the US invaders.
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I personaly if given the option would not spend one red cent in the middle east.
There is just no way them people are ever going to trust us and no way a democracy will ever work over there.
I mean my God man they been fighting and killing each other since Jesus was a baby what makes us think we can come in and change 2 thousand years worth of hatetred and fueding.
Is It starting to look like viet nam?
I dont know but if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck best to look where your stepping cause you might just step in duck chit!
The military once again is sent into battle with its hands tied:mad:
And It Is painfull to see all the fine young Americans coming home in those boxs.
I am just very tierd of the whole mess the death and the deceite.
Heck now with these soldiers pulling these stunts they got us (America) looking like a monkey humping a
football!!
Anyway im rambling i will just say in closing.
Is it just me or would anyone else rather have seen that 100 billion spent on the war used in OH I dont know something like cancer research education reform Health care for the elderly the list really go's on and on.
We have so much we need to fix in our own back yard before we try to rework someone elses.
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Originally posted by Steve
I bet you already have your fingers crossed.
No not at all. Now that US is there I hope they see the job through to the end and that Iraq will have an elected government for better and secure future ahead.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
No not at all. Now that US is there I hope they see the job through to the end and that Iraq will have an elected government for better and secure future ahead.
...-Gixer
thats as likely as Cindy Crawford saying she wants to have my babies LOL.
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Why would anyone now want to see the US mission in Iraq fail or for them to pull out and hope the UN picks up the pieces? The country would just fall further into anarchy and civil war costing even more civilian lives. ???
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Why would anyone now want to see the US mission in Iraq fail or for them to pull out and hope the UN picks up the pieces? The country would just fall further into anarchy and civil war costing even more civilian lives. ???
...-Gixer
Read it again and go slow this time.
I did not say I wanted America to fail .
I just said that I think It unlikely that Iraq will ever be a peacefull democracy.
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Originally posted by txmx
Read it again and go slow this time.
I did not say I wanted America to fail .
I just said that I think It unlikely that Iraq will ever be a peacefull democracy.
I know, I was just replying again to Steve's comment which I found rather short sighted.
...-Gixer
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I know, I was just replying again to Steve's comment which I found rather short sighted.
I already know that you are short sighted by your endless declarations about how the war in Iraq was the wrong thing to do.
Why would anyone now want to see the US mission in Iraq fail or for them to pull out and hope the UN picks up the pieces? The country would just fall further into anarchy and civil war costing even more civilian lives. ???
I dunno why, I don't think like you. You seem to be a person who would take great satisfaction in the U.S. failure based on things you've said in the past. Your distaste for our country's actions and the foolsih things you say don't give me any glint that you are a reasoning, thoughtful person.
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*makes petty personal attack*
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Ah... the millenium-old 'anarchy and civil war if we leave' conjecture. After thousands of years, people are still falling for that. Amazing.
Steve: Wasn't trying the millenium-old 'take it out of context and use it' technique either... :) Hasn't almost all terrorism against the U.S. been perpetrated by Saudi, UAE and other nationalities though? Since the war against Iraq started, I suppose the combatants in Iraq would have to be called guerilla fighters. But, the semantics are not a big deal. If we get out soon, we'll have less people shooting at our troops sooner, is my point. The mission is over - Saddam is gone.
There will always be people who misunderstand the purpose of another country invading their country. And those who resent being occcupied, no matter how good the intentions of most of the occupiers. Every future unfortunate incident where someone feels unjustly wronged by the bad apples (and there are more bad apples out there) will fuel more resentment and breed terrorists seeking revenge.
I think the U.S. has some bigger fish to fry than Iraq.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I read in the paper today that the England woman may be court-marshalled. A jury of some sort would decide if she is court-marshalled, and if she is, and found guilty of the charges, her punishment would be a reprimand, reduction in pay, or a dishonourable discharge from the army. No prison terms ... and obviously no firing squad.
Yeah, that's a great discouragement, and really shows everyone how serious the army is about GC violations, PR, and the honor of the US Army and the USA itself.
Wow, just wow.
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Originally posted by GScholz
"Of the two cases determined to have been criminal homicides, defense officials said, one was in Iraq, and has resulted in a dishonorable discharge but not the jailing of the American soldier responsible, whose actions were judged to have been provoked by rock-throwing Iraqi prisoners."
Yeah, "wow" indeed. Why wasn't this soldier executed? I do believe the punishment of his crime in wartime (and peacetime in some US states) is death.
LOL we dont kill our own soldiers ! Thats why why we win wars.
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Scholtz........HUH?????????????????????????
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May I remind everyone the reason we are still in Iraq and one of the reasons we can not leave yet.
We (the USA) promised not to crumble the country and leave it in pieces. We went to war and destroyed many many things. We are now helping to rebuild the country to be a better place than it was before we got there. We are still building schools, hospitals, police forces, educational centers, homes, jobs and so much more. We are not there now in order to crush insurgents or kill any remaining bad guys!! It just so happens that they continue to attack us while we rebuild their country and try and build a better place and a better government for them!!
If they would stop shooting tomorrow, so would we! As soon as the war was declared over, we would have been happy to not have fired any more rounds of ammo at all. We just wanted to rebuild what we could, get them a better government that was ruled "by the people" "for the people", teach them how to build better water plants and more effecient power plants and move on.
The worst thing we could have done is to destroy the armies, capture Saddam and then just leave them in turmoil!!
You must think of the whole picture and stop giving in to the liberal press who wants you to think we have and are doing terrible things and making terrible mistakes. We have, and we are, doing the right thing. And we can leave, as soon as we have succeeded. FBRaptor
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Originally posted by GScholz
In WWII you executed your own soldiers for far lesser crimes than homicide.
HUH?? :confused: WHO?? :confused: FBRaptor
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--Slightly off course--
From my local paper: The CO (LTC) of the prison in question lives right down the street from me and I went to high school with his oldest. Small world.
The guy was a bafoon when I knew him and you should see his quotes in the paper. He says he had no knowledge and is actually blaming the enlisted men for the actions.
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The more I read into this and the possibilty of 100's of more cases and pictures yet to come. One seriously starts to wonder that this was alot more then just a "few" bad apples. The environment and culture must of been in place to allow this type of abuse to continue and at the level it did for so long.
I don't believe that it is wide spread throughout the whole US military. But I do believe it could very well be more then just a few bad soilders and that the apple rot goes alot higher up the ranks.
...-Gixer
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I have never heard of such a thing. I honestly would have to see some back up on this before I can believe it to be true. I do believe that you believe it based on something you read, however I find it hard to believe.
If you can find this somewhere, please post it or if some others have knowledge of this please let me know.
Thanks, FBRaptor
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Originally posted by GScholz
I read in the paper today that the England woman may be court-marshalled. A jury of some sort would decide if she is court-marshalled, and if she is, and found guilty of the charges, her punishment would be a reprimand, reduction in pay, or a dishonourable discharge from the army. No prison terms ... and obviously no firing squad.
Yeah, that's a great discouragement, and really shows everyone how serious the army is about GC violations, PR, and the honor of the US Army and the USA itself.
LMAO, that's damn fine research there bud Nice job of posting something without backing up the statement with any type of factual evidence or proof. Be sure to tell me ASAP when you read in the paper about me winning billions of dollars , so I can take it to my local bank and have them pay me. Cuz everyone knows that if you read it in the paper why it must be true ! Damn ya gotta love this internet thing :aok
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Originally posted by CavPuke
LMAO, that's damn fine research there bud Nice job of posting something without backing up the statement with any type of factual evidence or proof. Be sure to tell me ASAP when you read in the paper about me winning billions of dollars , so I can take it to my local bank and have them pay me. Cuz everyone knows that if you read it in the paper why it must be true ! Damn ya gotta love this internet thing :aok
Welcome to the ah boards, where both sides post ignorant crap without backing it up. Or if they do back it up, it is from some website that is completely BS.
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Originally posted by Gixer
The more I read into this and the possibilty of 100's of more cases and pictures yet to come. One seriously starts to wonder that this was alot more then just a "few" bad apples. The environment and culture must of been in place to allow this type of abuse to continue and at the level it did for so long.
I don't believe that it is wide spread throughout the whole US military. But I do believe it could very well be more then just a few bad soilders and that the apple rot goes alot higher up the ranks.
...-Gixer
Oh no. Gixer's found us out. The whole evil plan for world domination as laid out by George Washington in secret code in the Constitution (Jefferson was a pawn). The true power behind every throne - the Illuminati. It's on the money, after all.
And the subliminal conditioning buried deep within the basic and advanced training courses in every facet of the military which creates homocidal maniacs just waiting for war to be the excuse they need to release their inner selves.
It's all going along to plan. Mwahahahahaha! You're too late to stop us, Austin "Gixer" Powers! Mwahahahahahahaha! :D