Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 13, 2001, 08:13:00 AM
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We've been giving our money to the middle east for many years now, its made billionaires of the arabs that now attack us.
Its time to become self dependant on oil, yet remain global in our approach to all our friendly nations.
Lets start exploring the Arctic Refugee areas in Alaska, the sooner we can wean ourselves from Middle east oil...the better.
Once we have the oil thirst quenched, take all the money that we will save by not buying over priced oil from overseas and find other energy alternatives. First and foremost, we must act quickly and get off the bottle that feeds us, and feed ourselves.
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Pipe dream. (pun intended)
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brain failed
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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Now there ya go, don't you know that the carabo are more important then US policy!!!
Sierra Club has you,Rip, on their hit list!!
I mean, you have to think of the children!! If you dirty the preserve the children of today won't have any carabo to shoot in the future!!
Ya. drill now, drill deep, drill fast. The precious enviroment will heal. US policy=self sufficiency!!
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Originally posted by 1776:
US policy=self sufficiency!!
You can try to ignore the world but the world won't ignore you ever :(
And furthermore it won't stop the hate and jealousy toward USA.
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Originally posted by straffo:
You can try to ignore the world but the world won't ignore you ever :(
And furthermore it won't stop the hate and jealousy toward USA.
Has nothing to do with shutting the world out, Straffo, only to become self supportive and not have to depend on middle east politics to sustain the way we live.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
We've been giving our money to the middle east for many years now, its made billionaires of the arabs that now attack us.
Its time to become self dependant on oil, yet remain global in our approach to all our friendly nations.
Lets start exploring the Arctic Refugee areas in Alaska, the sooner we can wean ourselves from Middle east oil...the better.
Once we have the oil thirst quenched, take all the money that we will save by not buying over priced oil from overseas and find other energy alternatives. First and foremost, we must act quickly and get off the bottle that feeds us, and feed ourselves.
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
that makes way too much sense Rip. ..
This country "Unity" has a shelf life I say less than 30 days. Then it'll be us and them and "they" still won't let "us" "destroy the enviroment" getting our own oil, no matter how many US lives it has or will cost us in the future...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Has nothing to do with shutting the world out, Straffo, only to become self supportive and not have to depend on middle east politics to sustain the way we live.
Well I understand your view but we Euro (and lot of other country like Japan) cannot do ... currently we are energy dependant :(
We need oil for the chemical ,transportation and lot of other need (in France 80% of our electricity is nuclear but we still need oil ...)
Sorry for my english it's poorer than usual :(
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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The answer is not self-dependency. It is independence. But even there, it's half of the answer. That could be a solution in the very early stages of the problem, maybe in 1.970-73, before the first big oil crisis.
You will be surprised how deeply incardinated is arab capital within western corporations.
We need new international laws with regards to transparecy in corporations' ownership. We need to block any suspicious assets. We need to expropriate assets of terrorists (in your President's aception of the word), if we need to cut money supply to these beasts. We need to aggree on international regulations as to capital flows and trade is concerned.
Stop thinking in US terms. US alone will not achieve anything on the long run. The problem is too complex, and involve too many nations. Neither US money alone caused the problem, nor is US alone the solution. If anything positive can be taken from the horror, one is pulling the bandage out of our eyes, and another one is putting all Allies together against the common enemy.
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Oh, and the irony is even worse: The worst the blows they deal against western countries, the more revenues they will get from higher oil prices.
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i actually had the same idea: if you want to reduce the dependece from the orient, you must get independent from the oil.
It´s oil why the americans show precence in the gulf. Only oil - nothing else.
But what did Bush say about the Kyote protocol? Not interested, saving energy is no solution, we´ll consume (read: waste) energy as usual...
But i don´t like the tone from you, Ripsnort, because you say it in a way that sounds like "we were supporting them for free with millons of dollars". Actually the US is doing very good buisness with the orient. Oil is very cheap. Way too cheap if you consider the remaining recources and the consequences for the environment.
It´s the buissness that caused the death. Americans speak about freedom, human rights etc. but they seem to forget that western companies don´t care at all about those priciples when they do buissness in the so called second or third world.
niklas
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i think it's time for the revival of a wonderful old tradition. 'to the victor goes the spoils'.
when this is sorted out and we have confirmed exactly who's at fault. it's time to deal with not only the group that did this but also the countrys that suport and protect this group. and after we have dealt with them we take their oil. we are at war, we where attacked, we have massive loss of life and property. and after this is done i think it's about time that somebody pays reparations to the US for a change.
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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Oh yes, its big business! Gimme a break Niklas, your either very young, or very dumb.
In regards to oil, if there is the reserve that scientists suspect under the AR site, then the market will be as such that the US will be able to export oil as well, so that offers the free world just another place where they can buy oil.
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Capitalism isn't the problem here. It's the lack of Capitalism around the world that is the problem!!
Say, how many nations have signed the keyoto treaty? Last I head just one, Romania, I think.
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Make one of those troublesome mid-east nations the 51st state. Then you become self-sufficient in oil. *G*
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Well, I've heard this from many different sources including AP and Reuters, so I'm guessing it's correct.
Osama Bin Laden was on the CIA payroll when the soviets were in Afghanistan... in fact it was one of the key pieces of the american involvement in the area.
...and somehow, one day, he just hates everything american?
Ok, call me conspiracy lunatic, but couldn't it be that he got mad because the CIA let him down or something like that? Another Noriega?
Jeez, this guy makes the villains from Hollywood movies look like aficionados.
(As a matter of fact this subject was discussed in "The Siege", if I remember correctly)
Folks in the US, do the humanity a favor and find this guy... whatever you do to him afterwards is up to you. I couldn't care less as long as he's brought before a court.
I have friends in the US military who have stated their will to do whatever they must, literally "if necessary more
Americans will die to bring this barbarians to justice"
My best wishes for them and for all americans, keep your head cool and do what you must.
Daniel, aka Cyrano
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The problems won't stop with him alone, he's 7 layers deep, there is no nationality borders with Mulim Fundumentalism. We have many sympathizers in the U.S. for 'his' cause, Egypt, Palestine, theres at least one Bin Ladin sypathizer in every country. Killing him will only fulfill his long term strategy, making himself a martyr for his cause.
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if we just take out Ben Laden or his leaders with their suport structure intact somebody else will just fill the void we create. to effectivly remove the ongoing threat we must remove their suport source
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We are virtually out of domestic oil reserves, the Wildlife refuge represents less than a 6-month U.S. supply that will not developed for better than a decade. It represents only 1 percent of the world oil supply and is only good for short term profitability.Check out Oil Analytics (http://www.oilanalytics.org) for more information.
Supply is not the real issue, refining and distribution is. In the summer we run at 98% refining capacity where any disruption bleeds over into the spot market where retailes buy fuel at the terminal rack.
We need more refineries or greater capacity at existing refineries. Our capacity has slipped due to good old free market capitalism. Refining is not really "big oil" and tends to be less profitable. The majors are generally selling off their refineries to independents(or closing and consolidating them). Refining becomes less profitable at greater capacity so short of direct govt. regulation or corporate welfare initiatives (as exists in the current Bus oil policy) it's not going to correct itself.
The ONE factor in the Bush oil policy that stands to make a difference to the current energy situation is the reduction in the number of botique clean-air fuels from the current 15-16 down to perhaps 5-6 (this is what the term "Balkanization" of the gasoline supply refers to). This will make it far easier to make up for any supply shortcomings in finished gasoline products since regulations today often prevent substituting one readily availiable gasoline for another in a different region.
Eventually we have to get away from oil. It's not going to be easy or quick (decades at least), and it will cost some short-term profitability at the corporate level, but if we want to get away from our dependance of foreign oil there's not much choice.
Charon
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
if we just take out Ben Laden or his leaders with their suport structure intact somebody else will just fill the void we create. to effectivly remove the ongoing threat we must remove their suport source
Yep. And it includes ALL terrorist orgs, from IRA down to the Asian gangs running around in LA, this is MY opinion. If it requires a police state, I have no problems in having my liberties limited to rid the world of these type of humans.
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Ya time for heads to role.
I hope we have the nearve to prosecute the heads of state that keep this going. and the political parties in differnt counties that condone it.
Canada is not inocent here. we have the sikkes that blew up several airliners in the 90s. we have been sitting on them for a decade trying to find the "legal" means to convict them...
roadkill.
shoot them I say.
Shoot those guys that were to go on trial in manhatten yesterday.
The "proofs" are often rediculously hard to get on these guys. we have to relaxe that requirment a bit I think.
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YOU are naiv and blind Ripsnort. It´s all about buissness.
When Irak attacked Kuwait, some month later the US fought back.
It took some years in Yugoslavia to get the US involved. No oil there. Who cares?
USA left Somalia after 15 soldiers were killed. Why sacrificing our soldiers when there´s nothing worth to fight for, right?
Actually the USA is protecting Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, two countries who are definitly NOT democratic countries, NOT respecting all aspects of the human rights. Did the US or Europe ever demanded free elections there? Cared about the human rights? No, never. Why should they, they can do good buissness there, they get oil, everything is ok.
Did western countries or companies ever killed people in those countries or other countries in africa and south america? Not directly. But they support existing intolerant, non-democratic systems who often supress their people. Why? Because those governments allow them to do good buissness. No, our western companies don´t kill, they don´t have dirty hands, they wear clean white gloves. But indirectly....
It´s not communist propaganda blabla when you say the welfare in our countries is based also on the exploitation of the second and third world. It´s a FACT.
What is the target of Ben Laden? The main target is to get the US out of arabia. Why is the US showing precense in arabia? Oil. This is the ONLY reason.
niklas
"Herr, die Not ist groß!
Die ich rief, die Geister, werd’ ich nun nicht los."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: niklas ]
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Guys, don't respond to the above trash, he's trolling.
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Ripsnort, take yourself the time and learn a little bit about history.
First of all: Saudi Arabia is a monarchie, and the regime is hated by the people. The king and his family is rich, but the land is actually poor and has billions of depts.
There is a lot of resistance against the regime, but it´s still dangerous to have a different opinion. Thousands of arabians went into the exil. Talk to them.
When the gulf war started many appreciated the help of the americans. But NO muslim wanted the americans to stay. They´re ready to pay for the help billions of dollars, oil. But it´s already horrible for the muslims that Jerusalem is occupied by the "dark". Now there are infidel people permanently on the holy soil - a major insult to all muslims.
Extemists blame the US that they weren´t even "invited", but came themselve to protect their own interests - oil.
People like Ben Laden think that they don´t need the US to defend the holy soil. And they hate - like many, many other - the monarchie in Saudi Arabia. And the saudi arabian regime is accepting that infidel people stay on the holy soil.
The Saudi Arabians have a lot of depts, they´re basically in the hand of the western world. And i repeat, the only interest of the US in Arabia IS OIL.
You slowly get the picture together?
But what cares all this the americans right? We´re untouchable, we´re number one, and if someone has a problem with us we drop some bombs on him. Who cares about the culture, religion and feeling of the people in other countries? Definitly not america, and especially not the industry when they can do some excellent buissness.
And now americans ask why people hate them. Unbelievable. You better wake up...
niklas
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Guys, don't respond to the above trash, he's trolling.
I don't think so ...
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Rip: I understand your sentiment.
But, we're moving towards globalisation and interdependency, not self sufficiency
It seems to me the key is voting with your money - i.e buying from a prtner you trust. Norway is the worlds second largest oil producer - and the US has, as you say, oil on its soil as well. but oil is only part of the equation.
The price will be higher costs.
The way to defeat international terrorism is the opposite of isolationism, but that's a whole other matter.
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I agree 100% Santa.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Yep. And it includes ALL terrorist orgs, from IRA down to the Asian gangs running around in LA, this is MY opinion. If it requires a police state, I have no problems in having my liberties limited to rid the world of these type of humans.
Wow.... this is how it starts.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
If it requires a police state, I have no problems in having my liberties limited to rid the world of these type of humans.
Rip, here in Spain there was practically NO terrorism when there was a military dictatorship. And I wouldn't like one bit going back to it for the end of terrorism.
No sir, there have to be better means to do it, and I'm sure the right steps towards the end of international terrorism are being taken. It may take some time, but if the international community says a strong NO to any form of terrorism, they are going to succumb.
Call me an idealist. I think it will happen.
But let's do it the right way.
Daniel, aka Cyrano
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Niklas,
It's not only about Oil. I mean it's got nothing to do with Oil. Oil is important as far as a source of revenue to finance their war. Unfortunately, far from being their only one.
bin Laden target is not US out of Arabia. bin Laden target is a 2 step one. First, unite Arabian countries (something of the utmost difficulty, but I concede western attitude has ease things tremendously in this regard). Second, destroy western civilization. As simple, as crude, as that.
bin Laden, and his likes, are muslims, but muslim is not the key here. Not all of them are like him, thank God. bin Laden is a fundamentalist. That's the key point. I don't care what is the underlying ideology/religion of a fundamentalist. The thing that makes them non-compatible with humanity (as we know it) is they see life of innocent as a tool to reach their goals. They would use ANY mean to get to their objectives. And Ripsnort hit it fair and square: ALL terrorist, each and every one of them. They are all birds of a feather, regardless the underlying "ideology".
In the horrendous mass murder America has suffered, muslims will suffer too. Islam is not bad per se. Fanatism is. All of us have to make an effort and focus the real enemy. If you kill muslim fundamentalism and pay no attention to the rest, sooner or later you will find yourself in the same bin again. Different faces, same problems.
We have a lengthy experience in Spain about politic fundamentalism. And terrorism derived from that. We've been cheating ourselves, we've been extremely cautious when dealing with them beasts. We've been pretending (still some are pretending) we have a political issue and that, in the name of our values, we have to be comprehensive with criminals. Dialog. Ha! Look at the results in our particular case.
Face it once and for all: politics, religion, territory, oil...have nothing to do with the real issue. The real one is Fanatism, and Terrorism associated with it. Each and every individual who commits, support, finance, hide, protect in whatever way or manner these kind of acts, this kind of thinking, is my enemy, regardless his motivation. In my book, they're not humans. They would not be more extrangers should they come from Mars.
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Under the war powers act, can the President suspend patents on things like 100 mile per gallon carbs? The Germans had synthetic oil in the 40's. My god with the technology of today we SHOULD HAVE ALREADY HAD AN ALTERNATIVE!
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How about not driving those 15 MPG SUVs where compact cars would do?
miko
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Rip,
Submitting to one form of tyranny to avoid another is not a solution. If we do the terrorists have won completely. This country was founded on principles of freedom and individual liberty. It is the brightest and biggest bastion of freedom in the world. If you tear it down because of some animal’s actions they won not only the day but also the war.
A further point is that it will NOT stop them from doing it again. No system of security is perfect. There is no way you can prevent a determined terrorist from conducting some kind of attack. You have to try as best you can but don't lose touch with why this country exists. It exists because people dared all to be free. Don't give it all up because others on the world want to dictate to us how we should live and what we will do. That is surrender to tyranny and they will be the dictators of it.
Now as far as the concept of money as the root of the problem here. Yep in a way that is absolutely true. Money and more specifically, oil, is a major part of this. That is not to say there is a problem about it. I have read posts about the “war for oil” we already went through.
If you think this was a means to keep the price of oil down you are far too simplistic. The economy of the globe is far too entangled for actions regarding a critical resource NOT to have a major impact of all “industrial” nations. If you allow one party, or mad man to control it, you have not only surrendered your needed resource to them but also your entire economy and country. No nation is self-sufficient anymore. No society can exist as a sole entity without relations with other nations. All events in industrialized nations are related to oil. Nothing gets moved, delivered, manufactured or even discarded without the use of oil. Food is not grown in sufficient quantities other than for farmer consumption without oil. To allow someone to control that resource is to place your nation hostage to the whims of that entity and submit to a virtual slavery situation. Your economy will for all practical purposes cease to exist.
This type of situation is no less a threat than that of Hitler controlling Europe and Russia with North Africa thrown in. Hitler could not have had much more control of the continent (hell hemisphere) than a sole person could in control of the majority of the world’s oil. Anyone with even a minor comprehension of economics will understand this.
Now is money the problem here?? As far as the Middle East and particularly the oil producing countries, you bet. Is it the fault of America? Nope. There are far more riches in the oil producing nations than ever before in the history of the world. The distribution of those riches to their populations is the responsibility of those same nations.
Here is a clear question for you. Is it the responsibility of the US or other nations to tell another nation how to spend their money as long as it is not used to threaten an ally or us?
Now bin ladin has a hatred for the US because there are “westerners” in the form of US citizens in that country. He does not like the idea of that as he is quoted as saying that they “defile” his country. This is due to his particular religious (bigoted) beliefs. It doesn’t matter that the recognized government of that nation has invited the U.S. there. He wants all non-Muslims out of Saudi Arabia. He was willing to accept non-Muslim help in fighting for Afghanistan’s freedom. Now he wants to pay that help back with terrorism and a “holy war”. This is hardly a civilized action or a rational one. No one on those planes used in the terrorist acts were a threat to him, his country or his religion. I seriously doubt anyone in the WTC was a threat. The Pentagon, due to possible military actions, “might” have been a threat but only at the direction of the political head of this country. This is not an appropriate reason for this type of barbarity.
What remains is the response to this action. What are the nations that have been mobilized and unified by this act going top do? If the instigator IS bin ladin how far do we go? I suggest that the length has already been determined. NATO has declared this to be an attack on NATO if it came from outside the U.S.. President Bush and members of Congress have already described this as an “act of war”. A declaration of “no difference between those who committed acts of terrorism and those who harbor them” has been made. I suggest to you that the scope of the response is soley dependant on the response of the nation / nations harboring the suspects in Tuesdays action. Do they continue to harbor terrorists or do they surrender them? To what extent are they going to harbor them? That will determine the extent of damage and number of casualties in any conflict.
<lecture mode off>
I didn’t really mean to get this involved.
Mav
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I must have used the wrong words, by police state, I am meaning tighter security at airports, stricter passport control, borders where 100% of vehicles are searched, air marshals if necessary, tighter security around large groups of people (sporting events etc.) Some of you read a Nazi regrime into the post, you were mistaken. I'm talking about allowing more time in our daily lives for tighter security.
Niklas is making corporate America to look bad, I just want to say, without corporate America, there would be NO USA.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Rip: I understand your sentiment.
But, we're moving towards globalisation and interdependency, not self sufficiency
It seems to me the key is voting with your money - i.e buying from a prtner you trust. Norway is the worlds second largest oil producer - and the US has, as you say, oil on its soil as well. but oil is only part of the equation.
The price will be higher costs.
The way to defeat international terrorism is the opposite of isolationism, but that's a whole other matter.
I wholeheartedly agree, I just want the world to become less dependant on middle east oil. Lead by example, the USA has been leading by example for 100 years along with other high profile countries...its time we rid ourselves of oil dependancy where the money for that oil is used against us, as it is currently today.
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Hey yo, Rip,
Read this,
Throughout the day following the dastardly and unprovoked attacks using
hijacked planes, I have heard a number of media people refer to the
possibility that we may have to "tighten down some of our freedoms." I've
heard people say that the age of innocence that is America is over, and
that we may now all have to join in some sort of sacrifice of our liberties
and freedoms in order to protect ourselves in the future.
I am here to tell you right now that, if anybody thinks that - I don't care
if they're in the news media, Congress or in the general population - they
are missing the whole point of what being an American means. You're missing
the whole point of the Constitution and the whole point of the reason for
the founding of this country.
If you think that the proper response is to ratchet down freedom because
of this, if you think that it's worth trading a little freedom in order for
security, you must work hard to banish that thought. The exact opposite is
what needs to be our motivating attitude. This nation must reaffirm its
freedoms. It must rebuild itself and expand upon its freedoms. We cannot
allow an event like this to cause to us shrink smaller within ourselves and
become fearful.
Tom Brokaw wrote a great work called The Greatest Generation, and there's
no question that the World War II generation was a great generation. Well,
it's time for a new generation or two to step forward, to step up to the
plate and let itself be known and let itself be heard. We have allowed
ourselves to be lulled into a sense of security over the years, precisely
because of the notion that things like what happened yesterday don't happen
in this country. Now that these things have happened, we must meet the
challenge.
Wow, who do you think wrote that?
Rush Limbaugh
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I'm talking about spending more time waiting to board a plane for security reasons, I'm talking about having to wait 1 hour at a border crossing instead of a "How many days you staying?" and a wave of the hand...I'm talking about sacrificing convience for security. Don't read any more into that than you already mistakenly have.