Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rod367th on December 30, 2003, 03:45:15 PM
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Since we had a 2 hour chat on channel one about rank. Thought I would give tips to all.
1. You must do 1 pt boat rocket attack. spawn to a port or gv base get near base fire 1 rocket it hits don't shoot again you get 100% hit rate in gv bomb %.
2. Use ju87 on strats drop on biggest cluster of targets. Zig zag out of ack ( ack has harder time if you evade it) Do a hot pad go back repeat this over and over till strat dead.
3. Drive a gv to a strat base ( i use panzer flaks lose turret to fast) use he kill buildings 2 shots or less takes out targets. after HE gone. Use your pintle guns to kill buildings this will increase your gv hit % don't for get to use turret machine gun. if no buildings left shoot rubble of a building hit % still counts.
4. Learn high alt bombing live live live hitting strats. 30 k bombing is same as 10k its easy. use 1000's 3 bombs 1 direction then 3 coming back this will give you a hit % for bomber of over 1000. Now if using bombers to hit nearby strat retund to base land bombers rearm lead bomber go back hit strat again. this improves your damage per sortie as rearm doesn't count as a sortie.
5. you must do at least 5 goon s in tod
6 same 5 for m3 secret here taking gv base and your safe use pintle gun to hit fuel increase hit %
7. to be real score ho kill ack at strat land plane at strat taxi to building shoot entire p47 ot p38 load into a building dead or up. this increases your attack hit % seen Guy hitting his own hangers like this before bug fixed. now it must be enemy target.
8. best way I find to get fast kills is to wait over a fully up strat. someone will be along shortly :)
9. once you get a good k/d in fighter do the rest of your sorties in attack mode.
now keeping your rank don't try to shoot a gv with plane you hit % goes to crap and flaks will eat you and k/d goes in the drink.
Don't UP A VULCHED BASE. be a vulcher not a vulch.
lastly going for a high rank is not the way to have fun. If your in this for fun then going for rank will make you hate game..............
again if you need to learn to bomb in bomber it takes me 5 mins to make you expert. JUST ask
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Hey Rod, good to see you around here again!
Hope you're feeling better
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Well you covered that well..
Now if you'd explain how to kill Levi, WT, Frenchy, Drex, Shane, Lazs, Hooligan, Rude, Apache, Sax, Toad in a good 1 on 1 it'd be alot more helpful..
Shooting at hangers is..
I hate to say it..
Kinda stupid for an online game.
But I'd say you got alot of no talent gamers makin copies of "how" to game the game..
I expect the arrival of MetavossIhaveaturmorusedtobea realfighterpilot to add to this great list.
No offense Rod, really, but exactly what are you trying to promote ??
Where are we going here ??
I'm disapointed and wouldn't have expected it.
Live and learn I guess.
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The best way to rank #1 in fighters is to fly a few fighter sorties, get shot down in all of them, not kill anything, and have around a 2% accuracy. For some reason, it works.
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wtf are you talkin bout? seems pretty clear to me, he just made a real good list for people who play for rank, the kinda people that wana have a rank of #1, he already said at the end that if your one of them, game prob wont be near as fun as it could be, i use to try to get a good rank, then i realized i was gettin more pissed at the game and not having fun, now i just up to have fun and fly with friends, dont care if i die.:D
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I'll tell you "WTF" he is talking about. There are enough gamey people in the game already. All we need is a pile of more tards milkrunning strats and shooting at the side of a building.
Some maps are hard enough to find a fight in as it is.
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Great post!
Nice to see all the gamey tricks out in the open. This is a big part of the game. Alot of players do this stuff. But not many talk about it openly tho.
Now I'm not against playing for score. There are as many definitions of fun as there are players.
However, imo this shows how fubar the scoring system is. Lord knows I don't understand the formulas used, but I suspect some of the more arcane stats are weighted too high.
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Originally posted by Virage
Great post!
Nice to see all the gamey tricks out in the open.
Throws up his hands..
What's the use. Tell ya what. Spend your time learning how to fly, how to use your plane, learn how to fight, fight other PEOPLE.
That might take some work. Might not learn it in a month, might not learn it in a year. No matter how hard you try, how long you work at it, you may be never more than average.
I've been workin on being the baddest muther in the valley since 1998 and I'm still just average..
But I'm not shooting hangers for cripes sakes.
I'm not gaming a game for score..
I'm putting my skills on the line against other opponents on a nightly basis and trying to improve. I'm fighting other people. What a concept. Go online and fight other pilots..
I suppose I could learn to spawn camp to give me a better score..
That's an improvement..
Jeez that makes me puke, it ruins the game for what it was originally designed for.
But you GO !!
You have no idea of what this game can be, and don't have the fuggin fortitude to learn.
What a bunch of crap you all buy into.
..and now we'll have a whole new group of players..
without the balls to do the time and learn.
What fun.
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The only real key one is the PT Boat. If you fly the all round game the rest should come naturally without any effort at all.
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Fly at high alt like a sissy. :D
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Originally posted by Steve
I'll tell you "WTF" he is talking about. There are enough gamey people in the game already. All we need is a pile of more tards milkrunning strats and shooting at the side of a building.
Some maps are hard enough to find a fight in as it is.
Exactly, we shouldn't encourage the dweebs like Zazen and Metatron/Voss/Mr. Ex-CIA anymore than we have too.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by nopoop
Throws up his hands..
[/soapbox]
Think you missed his point completely. Maybe you didn't read the last 3 lines or maybe you didn't get the sarcasm.
Read the last part of the first post again.....maybe you'll get it this time
Acetnt
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My reading comprehension is quite good Ace.
The last three lines make ALL the difference.
What you do Ace is cut the last three lines before you send it to your printer..
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Thats why we should have no overall rank, it does nothing for the game. You'll often notice half the top overall ranked are usually gv'ers pt'ers or bombers. I say that cautiously, there are some awesome tank drivers and bombers drivers/pilots but this is a .... nevermind, just whining cause i refuse to drive a tank, bomber or boat in a flight sim (note: i say bomber only cause i cant fly um :))).
Me a score potato?! Naw, never! :aok :D
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I Liked this game better when it was all about the sheep :D
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The Rank means nothing except to those people who MUST have control of the TaskGroup AT ALL COSTS !!!
(You know, the ones who take 'em over from other people without asking... because they can...)
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Originally posted by nopoop
Now if you'd explain how to kill Levi, WT, Frenchy, Drex, Shane, Lazs, Hooligan, Rude, Apache, Sax, Toad in a good 1 on 1 it'd be alot more helpful..
Just to clear things up, I absolutely don't belong in that group. I look at it and see no one I might be able to best in a 5 out of 7.
I've been playing since about 1989 or 90.. I forget now.. old age........ it was AW DOS on GEnie, I remember that much. I'm competent, maybe even average but that's all.
However, like NoPoop, I'm a firm believer that this is or should be all about air combat.
This bears repeating and careful reading by those who play for easily gamed score.
I'm putting my skills on the line against other opponents on a nightly basis and trying to improve. I'm fighting other people. What a concept. Go online and fight other pilots..
I suppose I could learn to spawn camp to give me a better score..
That's an improvement..
Jeez that makes me puke, it ruins the game for what it was originally designed for.
But you GO !!
You have no idea of what this game can be, and don't have the fuggin fortitude to learn.
What a bunch of crap you all buy into.
[/b]
This guy just provided a clue. The ball is in your court. There's things you can achieve in this game of which you can be proud; he just told yo what they are.
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hit sprites.
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Originally posted by rod367th
taxi to building shoot entire p47 ot p38 load into a building dead or up. this increases your attack hit %
Kewl! Like, do you know where do I get the health and invisibilty powerups? Do you just fly through them or do you shoot em? :lol
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Originally posted by nopoop
Jeez that makes me puke, it ruins the game for what it was originally designed for.
Poopster...
I hate to be the one pissin' in your teapot....but, from the getgo, HT intended for AH to be more that an air combat sim. Ask him about submarines or the "1st person shooter" field captures he would like to implement some day.
As for what the thread is about (sri, I was coat-tailing the hijacking :D)....playing for score is silly. Anyone that hasn't figured that out yet has my sympathy. At the "end of the day", if you are playing for score...you're just jerkin' off :).
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Score potatos are score potatos.They would find a way to game the scoreing system.They kinda flock together anyway.Me?I'll take a good old 3 minute nail biter and lose and have MUCH more fun than those dweebs.:lol
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Poopster...
At the "end of the day", if you are playing for score...you're just jerkin' off :).
No hijack NB. It just gets to me. You know, I know, lotsa people know what this game can be. Whether it be being GOOD at jabo, GOOD at bombers or GOOD at fighters.
Any of those require doing time and working at it.
Like DrDea said, I would rather have a 3 minute hair on fire nail biter and lose..
That's just me.
It's the wrong message to send out...
How to get a high rank..
If I were new and I was early in my learning curve getting slapped around while I was learning I'D PRINT THE FUGGER OUT.
Ta hell with learnin the craft, I got it right here in black and white how to be good. Was it one rocket or two..
I'll bet ya 12 pack of cheap beer there's a ream of paper copies sitting at computer desks right now as we speak.
Can't WAIT for the next tour as they tape the copy on their moniters..
How many are watching films on reversals and working it ??
Learning is a very rewarding experience. Gaming is meat in the right hand.
To promote gaming the game, is a bad show.
It takes from the game a persons chance for those special "moments" when you lose all track of time, sense of where you are. You become, for those few short tense minutes, literally "in" game.. Toad knows, it's a drug.
Now forgive me, I didn't print it out, was it one rocket..or two ??
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Originally posted by rod367th
7. to be real score ho kill ack at strat land plane at strat taxi to building shoot entire p47 ot p38 load into a building dead or up. this increases your attack hit % seen Guy hitting his own hangers like this before bug fixed. now it must be enemy target.
I believe that was taken out a few versions ago after a few people submitted film of Voss sitting in a Jug and shooting at hanger to up his attack hit %.
ack-ack
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LOL !!
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lol (umm why does everyone laught when they figure out metatron is voss. Voss was before my time in AH)
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This looks so.... boring.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
lol (umm why does everyone laught when they figure out metatron is voss. Voss was before my time in AH)
Do a search of the message boards for Voss and you'll find out why we hold him such disregard.
ack-ack
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well, milkrunning score goobers may be held in low esteem, but you gotta admit its fun catching them in the act, or even being one of the "caught". Its one of the best ways to find a decent 1v1 / 2v2.
I dunno, score seems to have some relevance, but the way to get it is a bit skewed (gamey). I'll never likely have a fighter rank under 1500 or so, and well....same goes for other scores too. I'll often look to what a guys rank is after he leaves me standing in the tower saying "wtf?" Usually his rank will be not much better than mine, but he surely cleaned my clock! :)
Oh, and welcome back Rod :D
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Originally posted by Steve
I'll tell you "WTF" he is talking about. There are enough gamey people in the game already. All we need is a pile of more tards milkrunning strats and shooting at the side of a building.
Some maps are hard enough to find a fight in as it is.
True, but think about the decreased number of HOing NIKIs in the skys. They will be busy shooting at buildings now and then they will have to fly back with no amo :D
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Originally posted by nopoop
Throws up his hands..
What fun.
I don't think you would want to fly with or against those people anyway. Let them be busy somewhere else while we are having fun flying plains.
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I think he is explaining why most of us are unimpressed by rank.
tw9... you are getting it? glad to have you on board.. sorry I wouldn't reveal where the fur was to you last nite... thought you were still "one orf them".
I think a lot of the new guys are starting to get it. I think Festers map makes it obvious what is important skill wise.
lazs
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You know this whole score thing is cool, I can see how I doing and what i need to work on. But what I live for it..
System: SkipNutz Landed 15 victories in a Typhoon of the Wild Aces..
Isnt that what matters, not what you score is. Rod thanks for the post. I was wondering how guys that I have shot down several times always seem to have a better score than me. Now shut up and lets go take a base...
SkipNutz
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Nopoop this was a 2 hr conversation on channel 1, Most of these things were mentioned. However This game is for GV'ers, pt drivers, bombers, jabo's, and fighters. Maybe I reading you wrong but it seems to me you want everyone to play your way only fighter furball.
Most good pilots here owe the jabo's and gvs thier hi rank as fighter pilot. Most good pilots like to go where gv'ers getting killed or where jabo's hitting a field because defenders are low.
We will get more players to be here if game is for everyone not just those who like to fly fighter. Telling how they can get a high rank may give them enjoyment of game. Maybe not your cup of tea but this game is for all types.
Its Like in main people saying la7, nik and spits are dweeb planes. Because its said so much by a few people many think its gospel. I for 1 could careless how others fly or what they fly as long as they respect others .
I for 1 never suicide cv's not because others say its gaming game( which its not) but because its more challenge to do it from 8 k and live to me. The reason I say its not gameing the game , is because in ww2 there are many men who gave thier lives diveing a fighter or bomber into a target giving thier live to save others.
I think wait I know this game was built to reach players of all types GV, Bomber, PT, jabo's, base takers and fighters. I for one enjoy all aspects of game. May it be going 30k to a HQ or noe to a hq, Sinking CV to save countries base, Killing gv's (this gives me most fun ), killing bombers (Which alot of high ranking players will not try if they b26's or 17's) or just hitting strats.
Helping players who want a higher rank. Is the same as helping them learn to have better acm's. I've taught many here how to use bombers and bomb from any alt. Taught some acm's ( not as much as shane has) but have always been free with info and tactics to me this is the right thing to do. most guys with high ranks already know these things. And do them Think I'm wrong nopoop go look at any high rank players stats. No one can be high rank with out as you say gameing game. now you can rank high in one but not in all.
This game is not a fighter sim only, and is for enjoyment of all. not minority.
p.s ak-ak your right on who but wrong that you can't do it now. you can just has to be a enemy target.
But let me say this again Going for rank is the way to boredom and stress, Play have fun any way you want to play.
I don't care if you want to only HO, Suicide, gv only bomb only do what you want to have fun forget what a few others might say to you. JUST HAVE FUN ITS A GAME.
puts soap box down takes less meds. cya
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I for 1 never suicide cv's not because others say its gaming game( which its not) but because its more challenge to do it from 8 k and live to me. The reason I say its not gameing the game , is because in ww2 there are many men who gave thier lives diveing a fighter or bomber into a target giving thier live to save others.
Yea but they didnt end up in a tower selecting another plane.to go back and doi it again.Thats the issue with most.
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the real rank is in the DA and it is unposted ..
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Do a search of the message boards for Voss and you'll find out why we hold him such disregard.
ack-ack
Nooooooo....dont go there, just move on and dont ask......
let the issue die, every year it gets drug bag into the spot light
and creates nothing but ill will on the bbs, which there is enough of already...
No one has ever dug up anything but inuendo even from the news groups at Bigdweeb...
So my children flying AH in a few years dont have to here the same story...LOL
IKON
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I thought Rod's post was excellent.
I did this "whoring" for one tour and got as low as #10 and it was the most boring and BS tour that I have flown to date. Also, at the rank of 10, there had to be 10 times that many guys who would/could kick my prettythang in a New York second. It is something that I will never do again.
SlapShot Hint : What I did instead of flying a bomber, cause I suck in them, I used the JU-87 and switched the sorties from "attack" to "bomber".
Rod's post exposes how completely rediculous "rank" is in this game. "Rank" in its current incarnation is nothing but a fraud.
Last night some noob on channel 1 was telling USGrim to STFU cause he didn't know what he was talking about ... "with a rank like yours ... blah blah blah". USGrim would hand this guys his prettythang on a platter, but because USGrim had a rank in the 3000s, he was assumed to be easy.
Anybody who connects "rank" to being "good " is nothing but a dolt.
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drdea true but its same for fighter pilots if you only had 1 life per tour this game would be empty. ITS A GAME Not real life.
And when I say game I should know I lost my 2 older brothers in viet nam & 2 cousins. brothers were airforce pilots Richard shot down in 67 and william 69. Real life war SUCKS this is for enjoyment , Hitech does great putting on real life LIKE fights in other arenas like the BATTLE of RURR. where your lifes are on the line in this GAME.
take out suicides might as well stop vulchies from taking off. but then your taking away these folks right to play thier way. Some guys like trying to defend base and kill vulchers. Its there right to try and we should defend thier right to play thier way.
The only thing that disapoints me in here is when on channel 1 when a player will joke about abusing a woman, rapeing children more do not speak out on channel 1. This is the thing that should be chk by all newbies come in see this kinda of talk and repeat it over and over.
Example is Dlamb here is young kid no father, comes in seeing everyone trash talk call names swears, You all get pissed at him when he is just acting like some vetrans do on channel 1. That is why when someone makes a comment about hurting woman or children all should stand and tell them this is not acceptable.
My Daughter use to love to fly in sims, But we decided it wasn't working as when some guys found out she was a young woman the sexual comments started coming in private messages,and when she killed them she got some of the things that happens to USGIRL in here. thats what concerns me not those who Hop bomb strats or play thier way.
okay so I forgot to put soap box away. I will kid with friend s on channel1 but I do same thing with skuzzy. If you can't say it when hitech or skuzzy in game then don't say it on channel1.
It 's like yesturday guy gets killed by shane, he has to call shanes entire familly ( mom gets it most it seems) names. When in fact shane would take him to da train him to have a better chance of killing shane 1 on 1. But this person decides to say i can kill you anytime if you didn't cheat and I kill you all the time.
PS GUYS we all can check your scores, we can tell planes you fly and can check kills against any player. so many call la7 a dweeb plane you go check thier scores and you'll see they fly it. Now that cracks me up And I enjoyed proveing that they fly plane to.
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When I came to AH, I was very impressed with the scoring system. A cumulative system is heavily weighted toward players with the most time on their hands. With AH's system, productivity rates balance out accumulating points.
What I did not see from critics was an explaination where the gamey parts of fighter and attack columbs verses enemy. Lazer said fly high like a sissy. Kills per time online stat tends to negate that tactic. Likewise there are counter-balances for other tactics that would try to take advantage of a particular stat.
My point is, since no one else has pointed it out, the AH scoring systme is pretty darn ingenious. Any system can be gamed. The vs objects can be gamed, but only if the enemy allows you to.
I dont fly for rank. I fly for racking up as many kills as I can in a flight, and hopefully returning to base. As an afterthought, for a change of pace, I may actually do a sortie or 2 to work on stats I tend to ignore once in awhile.
I find it funny how some people who dont feel like covering every peformance metric of the game wish to rationalize and disseminate a disrespect of the system, and those that do. If the metrics cover more than you are interested in, it is wrong, it is a fraud, and everyone who has a broader intrest than you is just gamey. Too funny :)
ps. shouldnt the thread be How to get a low rank?;)
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Anybody who connects "rank" to being "good " is nothing but a dolt.
So very true, and we have a significant amount of "dolts" who believe it too. In fact, if we steam rolled all of the dolts flat, we'd have enough material to pave the Alaskan Highway.....
At least once a week I shoot down some guy and he promptly types "Lucky shot". Naturally, I invite him to return and see how much luck had to do with it. Of course, they never do. But, they will check scores via the clipboard and say something akin to; "I have a much better rank than you do", as if that had any bearing on the fact that they absolutely suck at air to air fighting. Rather amazing, isn't it?
I've long since learned to respect players for their obvious skills, not their ranking, or even their K/D. I also respect guys who aren't very good, but actually make an effort to learn. I respect any guy who fights regardless of whether he was a challenge or not. The guys who I have little regard for are the "gamers" who flee at the prospect of a fair fight, who prefer to "strat" undefended fields, or suicide bases or CVs without the slightest intention of fighting or even surviving.
But, that's my opinion and I could be wrong... ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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I tried that score whoring once ... got up in the double digits ..
Talk about stress ... (only to mess up the last day or 2 of the tour)
I myself play the game to have fun and relax ..
if i want to Blow up stuff i will , if i feel like killing gv's well i go have at them , secret hq raids now and then shure . a few killer goon runs right on., getting traped in a mass furball blasting everything in site way cool .
If i get shot down to many times by someone I go grab my Spitoon and get even.
that " oh my score is better then your score " well it doesnt mean much to me ... Its the guys/gals ive Fought 1 vs 1 in that white nuckle type dogfight i like the best .
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Originally posted by rod367th
Maybe I reading you wrong but it seems to me you want everyone to play your way only fighter furball.
Telling how they can get a high rank may give them enjoyment of game. Maybe not your cup of tea but this game is for all types.
Helping players who want a higher rank. Is the same as helping them learn to have better acm's.
I want people to interact, whether it be in fighters, bombers or jabo. The "list" is not interaction, it's gaming. You could spend a day working the list and never see another soul. Let's put up pizza on the first day of the new tour and have the hundred or so that printed it out the list "work" on their stats..
Helping a player to learn how to game the game for stats is in no way the same as teaching acm. It's not the same as teaching how to jabo, to bomb, to drive a PT boat.
To think so, while being noble is foolish.
Increasing the crop of gamers does nothing but take from the game.
BTW I think the scoring system is quite good. I use it all the time. I know how I fly, and have those things that I personally keep track of from tour to tour.
Where it becomes a problem is where it becomes not a resource but a goal.
That's what your list does for the new guy fresh young and green.
At the expense of interaction.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Helping a player to learn how to game the game for stats is in no way the same as teaching acm. It's not the same as teaching how to jabo, to bomb, to drive a PT boat.
To think so, while being noble is foolish.
Increasing the crop of gamers does nothing but take from the game.
I tend to agree with this by the way. If there was an order to a list of goals to achieve in AH, I would think rank would be near the end. Bypassing fundamentals with shortcuts doesnt help anyone. That said, Ive often passed along similar tips to players that have the fundamentals and want to improve on new goals. Must be why I thought it seemed out of place here.
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Where it becomes a problem is where it becomes not a resource but a goal.
Succinct... eminently correct.
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Nopoop please expalain why you think others have to play your way?
Some guys like just bombing some jabo some fighter some want to go for low rank. Its was discussed on channel 1 that rank doesn't mean how good of a stick you are. they asked what do you mean. This list shows them how if they want to go for rank. I could careless if guy goes for rank if that is what makes him happy. Sorry i think your thinking of the minority here who want every to play theier rules.
I've had many ask how to get rank lower. I've helped. had many ask how to bomb and have taught 100's how to. Had people want to learn to fly fighter help them then. this game is for all to enjoy no matter what or how they want to fly. If giving them the tips on how to get lower rank bothers you. You really need to reevalulate your life. They are not here for your enjoyment but here for thier own reasons and if haveing a lower rank keeps them here and happy i'll help.
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your cheek is bleeding..
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Originally posted by rod367th
Nopoop please expalain why you think others have to play your way?
If giving them the tips on how to get lower rank bothers you. You really need to reevalulate your life.
Rod I've posted my thoughts, it's a bad show. Whether you agree with my conclusions is moot ( am I bleeding ?? )
I have no requirement that people play my way. Your list is a disservice in my opinion and the reasons have been already explained.
I don't really care how many you have helped, trained etc. That is good and I know you gathered good things from it. This isn't what it's about.
This is about a list on how to game the game.
It's equivalent to buying a boxed game, then buying the cheat book on the rack so you can win.
It's a boxed game mentality that is slowly creeping in. I've haven't played a boxed game in six years. I play here. I play the game, don't game the game. The enjoyment is the prize, not shooting hangers. To propagate that form of gameplay is wrong and a disservice.
It encourges the lowest common denominater.
It's a bad show.
You can't justify it, though you can try..
You might want to reevalulate your reasonings to post the list..
Are you helping, or porking the game ??
You think about it.
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the sooner that people realize how easy it is to actually game their rankings, do it, and then realize something's.... lacking, the faster they'll eventually come around closer to your ideal poopster, or some happy medium.
except for those diehards who measure their self-worth by their ranking month after month.
you see, for a noob w/o a clue (and too many so-called vets don't pass along clues much these days) rank is *the* thing to strive for, how else are they to measure their improvement with the lack of aforementioned vets clubbing them into submission and then offering to help them get better?
that and my strong belief that all these faux 's and "wtg"s merely reinforce the current status quo. everyone wants to be recognized in some way. that's human nature. the thing is people are being recognized for things that you think are undeserving.
shine a bright light on it, bring it into the open, expose it for what it is... something that's not all that big of a deal in the bigger picture.
the more you know....
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My point to you nopoop no one but hitech creations can say someone is gaming game. gameing game would be using known cheats or having friend s make accounts just for you to kill. But to say because someone wants low rank its gameing game your not watching how people get low ranks. You cannot get low rank without doing what i posted.
I didn't even go as far as some do as using lanc's and only drop 4k bombs so hit % goes up. anyone with over 1200 hit % in bomber is using just 4k bomb or the ju87 on a strat. they not hitting towns vh's cv's they just doing it to lower rank.
/and bombing strats does help in game so does jabo a strat helps then learn to do both. as for firing pt rockets sure it helps later if they want to kill town. driving a gv to town helps them with aim..... your point doesn't wash well
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Your reasons for the current "thing" is correct Shane.
It always comes back to this. When I came up along time ago it was to escape the "box" and fight real people, every fight different.
A good training program was in place to encourge the learning curve. Everything was available to improve and work the craft. Learning the craft was a challenge and a whole lot of fun.
Everything was geared to helping you reach proficiency.
The "box" mentality is taken over in the absence of a good training program.
Where once there was instruction on the fine arts, the practice, the flyin dyin and learning has been replaced by a list on how to get a good rank..
That's sad.
Real sad.
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Eloquently stated Shane. Bravo.
I Know Shane cares more for improving other peoples flying skills than almost everyone else in the Main Arena. He wasted several hours on this helpless cause before.
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Originally posted by rod367th
..your point doesn't wash well
Actually it washes quite well.
Any score system no matter how well put together, can be gamed.
HT's score system is quite good. Best I've seen.
Must have took you awhile to figure it all out.
..I'm sure many will appreciate your effort.
The result of which, is what we will agree to disagree on.
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Originally posted by nopoop
...Where once there was instruction on the fine arts, the practice, the flyin dyin and learning has been replaced by a list on how to get a good rank...
When the only people willing to help the newbies are the strat/score folks, then that is what the newbies become.
It's entirely the ACM folks fault for not getting ahold of these new players first and helping them along.
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I agree with furious. I have been playing ah a short time,,,,,,,,in that short time ive found the only instruction to be what i stumble on myself. Please don't point me to another web site and feel you've helped me! Yes the training arena is available ..........how do i answer this question,,,,what do you need to learn? ,,,,,,,,haven't a clue........yes the trainers are great people but overwhelmed with requests......so most of my learning has been by trial and error,,,,,,not the best method! I basically like flying fighters so i realize that i will never have a high score,,,,however i figure to try to do a little better each tour,,,thats satisfaction enough for me.
cya up
Claw
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Originally posted by Furious
When the only people willing to help the newbies are the strat/score folks, then that is what the newbies become.
It's entirely the ACM folks fault for not getting ahold of these new players first and helping them along.
Furious...
I beg to differ (to a degree :)). Generally speaking, folks are taught from an early age that score is the way to go. Why should anyone expect people to act any different when they enter the virtual worlds?
What is sad is the experienced players that seem to be enamored with scores.
Poops...
Dood, I think you have misinterpreted Rod's post. I didn't even have to read the whole thing to know that he was "shining" the score potatos :). Bottomline, as long as there is a scoring system, there will be people willing to manipulate it for some perceived glory. Hell, I said it in AW and I will repeat it here...give me 2 weeks and I can teach a chimpanzee to score in the top 10 :D.
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NB how exactly does anyone associate good score with knowing how to kill that bogie on his six, or SA-manage five cons at once, etc?
And I do like score, it tells me to a precise value whether one new attempt to improve something, like guns accuracy for ex. is working or not.
HT says he's making a post-flight .txt stat dump, and all the better. 'Score' isn't useless.
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Originally posted by moot
NB how exactly does anyone associate good score with knowing how to kill that bogie on his six, or SA-manage five cons at once, etc?
And I do like score, it tells me to a precise value whether one new attempt to improve something, like guns accuracy for ex. is working or not.
HT says he's making a post-flight .txt stat dump, and all the better. 'Score' isn't useless.
Moot...
Please feel free to point out where I said scoring helped anyone with ACM or SA?
I agree on the gunnery part of the scores. However, how bout giving us 5 more parts of the scoring system that help you improve anything besides your score?
To paraphrase Marilyn Chambers....the scoring system is 99.44% pointless :D.
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Nopoop I agree going for scare is boring, not fun at all. But when people ask how do you get a better rank polite thing is to answer questions.
Believe me nopoop If you read any other post of mine, you would know how I think score needs to be changed. when bombing a strat just for sake of score is more points than facing 163s at enemies hq people will go easy route. Base towns and hangers and hq and cv's should be more points that hitting a strat. living thru any of these whould be extra. they way scoreing is setup if I bomb a cv to save base and invasions My bombing rank drops 10 fold same as if I fly 2hrs to hit HQ my bombing rank drops bombing vh hanger again hurts bombers score.
again I* have to say let each play thier way if guys want to blow stuff up at strats or go for score I say go for it. But you can bet i'll wait over fresh strat to kill the ju88's lancs. :)
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NB I agree with Furious. He's correct.
When your born and bred learning ACM, the "score" you strive for isn't on a website somewhere for everyone to marvel over. It's in the next encounter..And the funny thing is, it has nothing to do with a number..
This game rocks, but it does not breed fighter pilots. It breeds strat jockeys..
To breed fighter pilots you need a formalized "locked" training arena. Behind those doors teach those that want to learn.
If it was there.
When I came over a couple of years ago Drex offered to work with anyone that wanted to get up to speed in the game. It must have had a hundred replies. It didn't surprise me.
If there was formalized ACM training here, there'd be a waiting list to get in. The breeding would begin.
Now you have to be someone like Claw that bangs the ropes and works it. He'll make it, he WANTS to.
That's the hard way to go. Most get frustrated without input and instruction.
Learning strat is the much easier road. Dem buildings don't move.
As a result, we have what we have.
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that's not what I meant, but rather how in the hell anyone with whatever pre-conception of anything could come into the arena, and in the middle of a dogfight or even just trying to take off, think to him or herself about his score to help him survive and kill in said dogfight.
Or help him learn timing, SA, whatever.
You can take any of the stats, and they'll be as useful as the hit% comment I made, that is they'll tell you very precisely whether something is going up or down or is fixed, for example when you're flying for a whole tour and don't notice something changed except when the numbers show it to you.
You might not care about small % changes in anything, but even that little is still qualitative about something, up to you to control things to have no doubt what.
Whether you then want to make 5mi long extrapolations from stats is another story.
I'd prefer having the post flight .txt
and the only reason I keep a moderately good rank is so I can control CVs to not lose perks for nothing.
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Rod it's all good.
I put forth some ideas that I firmly believe in.
If you breed a fighter pilot, you'll have a fighter pilot.
If you don't have the facilities to accomplish that, the game moves away from the jewel that it can be.
Realizing how far the game is moving away..from what is the very best that it can be, finds me looking for my soapbox.
And I found it.
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and you can't deny that the score system works well enough that if you keep yourself 100% gungho and zen to kill as much as possible and never lose a fight or anything at all, you will go up in the ranks.
If more than one person is doing this, you will have some appreciation of how well you're doing against them in that competition.
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Originally posted by moot
and you can't deny that the score system works well enough that if you keep yourself 100% gungho and zen to kill as much as possible and never lose a fight or anything at all, you will go up in the ranks.
If more than one person is doing this, you will have some appreciation of how well you're doing against them in that competition.
Moot...
The point is that the system also rewards those that don't have good ACM/SA. It also rewards the Vulch/Camp monkeys. There in, it becomes pointless. From an individual stand point, it does have some small merit in that it will allow you to track your improvement in certain areas. So, yes I can deny that it "works well enough..." :D.
The real problem with ANY scoring system in a game like this is that it can (and will) be manipulated. The only thing that having a high score really shows is that you know how to score :).
BTW, I stand by my earlier statement, pick the dweeb...I can have him ranked in the top 50 inside his 2nd camp.:)
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Poops...
As one that spent 6+ years in AW as an Academy trainer, head of informal training and finally head trainer, I respectfully disagree (as a general rule :)). The old adage about leading a horse to water applies. I will state that I do believe that an Academy style training course would improve the game play overall. What I disagree with is the statement that the only people helping newbies are the strat weenies.
BTW, I know that a number of former AW trainers have tried to convince HT that formal training would be a good idea. Unfortunately, he feels that creating a 'staff' would not be a good idea. I understand his logic....I just happen to disagree with it :D.
There is a solution though, create an informal (non-HTC sponsored) Academy. There have been enough folks complaining in the boards about the general lack of ACM skills and combat ettiquette (sorry if I miss spelled that :)) that filling the staff out should be no problem....provided those same people are willing to put their money where their virtual mouths are :D.
BTW Poopster...fergot to stay that just because you agree with Furious doesn't make him correct :D.
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There are a few gamey things that have to be cleaned up. But the score system works. It promotes playing the whole game and if you play the whole game with success you will have a good score, cheezy stuff or not.
It no more means your a crap pilot if you have a good score then it means your a good pilot if you have a poor score. There are guys that dont play the whole game and are fantastic sticks, there are guys that play the whole game and are fantastic sticks. The guys that dont play the whole game still seem to like running across a bomber or a jabo strike or a goon once in a while. The score system is in place to encourage that event and it works.
So this is all just whining and chest thumping really. Pyro has rightly decided to use the score system to promote the complete playing of the game, all types of units, all types of activities.
Do so and if your good at them your score will be good. If a bunch of the guys in your squad do it your squad score will be good.
Don't and your score will suck. But post that your score sucks and your a hot stick and your a whiner.
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Ok heres the deal.Back In Air Warrior,I was a "Fair" Pilot.I flew the 109 to exclusion.I had fun.Then one month I got tied up in the score thing.I went for top dog and after a month of living on the comp I got it.For one month in AW I was cool.Then I was an instant target for the rest of the time.The fun went away.I realised that making the game a goal was taking away from my fun.If your only goal is to prove some kind of manhood rite in here by score your a total loss as a human being.If you rank more as someone that has fun with there squadies regardless of the outcome yoiu have reached nirvana.Andf I Salute you.
Doc has spoken.
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instruction?
what happened to the good ol days where the humiliation of constantly being vultched or getting beat even when you had the advantage was more than enough to get yu to work at it... to review your films in the morning over coffee before work...
what happened to good ol fashioned stuborness and hate? the best teachers. finally reversing and killing that "name" player...
if "instruction" is what you rely on to either do toolshed killing or be a real badass knife fighter... then... no matter how much instrution you get.... you will be a toolshed battler till ya get some fire.
lazs
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Yep, without the fire in the belly you aren't going anywhere.
Getting killed over and over either makes you stubbern, or makes you try something else.
I took one class after flyin a couple of years. Main benifit was alot of 1 on 1 work with a trainer riding along with each guy and a breakdown after each fight.
Different merges etc.
Main benifit is that for the new guy that might not have the fire, it just might give it to him. Give him a start, something to work on.
I still suck, but I'm stubbern. I still have a screen shot of killin the trainer in the main that held the class.
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Originally posted by lazs2
... to review your films in the morning over coffee before work...
your kidding right ? Dude its a game :lol with an added :rofl cause thats just so silly.
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Jim you've never reviewed a film ?? It's amazing really. Try it one time when you've recorded a film in the fur or a 1 on 1.
You see things that were a haze when you were there. Very instructive.
Really. Try it. You'll be surprised.
That and studying films on reversals.
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Watch Leviathn's films and you will begin to understand the "geometry cheat".
Watch Shane's films and you will begin to understand the "aggresive cheat".
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A post about "how to get a high rank" by someone with an overall rank of 38th (Tour 47) is interesting. Credible, I would say.
A thread involving 0.7%* of the player base comprising the top 18%** rank overall (top 13%** fighter) that says rank has no meaning is suspect.
The rank/scoring system is a joke, yet it is what most of us peons are measured against by the same illuminati who insist that rank has no meaning.
We recognize the caste system in dogs because we rank ourselves by the familiar dog system, a ladder arrangement wherein one individual outranks all others, the next outranks all but the first, and so on down the hierarchy. Thus is rank perceived by the majority of players in Aces High.
Yet the top ranked players in the game always espouse the "rank has no meaning" POV, and see themselves more akin to the feline caste system, which is more like a wheel with a high-ranking individual at the hub and the others arranged around the rim, all reluctantly acknowledging the superiority of the despot but not necessarily measuring themselves against one another.
Yeah, right...
The majority of players in this game regularly measure themselves against one another based purely on rank and time in-game (and number of posts to this BBS). I was in the TA recently, assisting where I could, BS'ing quite a bit, when the subject of AH Conventions came up. What did the new players want to know? If I had met any "big names" at the Cons. I took that to mean HiTech et al, but no, they wanted to know if any of the top ranked players were there.
* Percentage based upon 37 of 5200
**Percentage based upon the averaged overall and fighter ranking (Tour 47) of the 37 players who participated in this thread
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Watch Leviathn's films and you will begin to understand the "geometry cheat".
Watch Shane's films and you will begin to understand the "aggresive cheat".
Watch Jenna Jameson's Films and you will begin to understand the "Wife Cheat". :eek:
sorry that was uncalled for
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Becoming good at fighters in AH is harder than all the rest of the crap put together--i been doin this 2-3 years, and though im getting better since I got a real computer, someone like Shane would kill me 10 outta 10. (mebbe only 9) But the score thing DOES serve to put some worth to all the other stuff in this game that IS easier to learn, thus givin new peeps some positive feedback. (And if new peeps quit, I wont be able to get any kills;)
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thread involving 0.7%* of the player base comprising the top 18%** rank overall (top 13%** fighter) that says rank has no meaning is suspect.
Ya really need to explain this one... at least to me, please?
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Originally posted by VAQ
The rank/scoring system is a joke, yet it is what most of us peons are measured against by the same illuminati who insist that rank has no meaning.
Your basic premise is flawed. Most players surely "rank" other players in their minds. I know I have a short list of those whom I consider consistently excellent opponents. This list, however, has nothing to do with fighter or any other rank within Aces High. Fighter rank may or may not indicate skill.
This is what the players here are trying to tell you, that the Aces High fighter rank does not provide an accurate metric for gauging skill. They are not telling you to stop "ranking" other players relative to yourself, only that you should eschew inaccurate measures when doing so. The fact that a vast majority of players in Aces High use the in-game ranking system to measure skill does not free that system from fault nor validate their claims.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Stuka and C47 being included in bomber score was a poor choice, but if you don't care about rank screwit - what other players do doesn't effect your game one lilttle bit IMHO. ME I will seldom fly a stuka, I will always strafe GV's and half the time I don'tknow if I am in attck or fighter mode. Scoring in AH looks like the end result of a committee project - no focus but touches on everything.
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The only ranking system in AH that works is the one in your own mind.You know who can beat you 1 on 1 and you know who cant.You also know who wines the most and who dies with dignity.The rest is MMOL BS.
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The only reason I posted is because brewhaha on channel 1. over all rank in game is meaningless unless another tourney comes along.
I post on boards how to cause many and I mean many asked how to lower thier scores. I have never refused to help someone. Any one taking offense to me posting how to lower rank. Takes this GAME way to serious. And needs to find a new life.
the GAME is for all guys who want to fly fighter, those who want to bomb, those who want to GV and those who just want to lower rank.telling newbies or anyone else what or how they should play game is stupid.
and IF anyone asked me how to do anything in this game I would help. Not 1 thing I posted is gaming game or a cheat. Just facts on how guys lower thier ranks.
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justjim... I probly haven't looked at more than a dozen AH films and none of em were mine.
The films that I used to review over the morning coffee were dos AW films. Those were the ones that mattered because I was so clueless back then. No great stick now but I pretty much know what is going on without watching the films.
lazs
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Originally posted by DrDea
The only ranking system in AH that works is the one in your own mind.You know who can beat you 1 on 1 and you know who cant.You also know who wines the most and who dies with dignity.The rest is MMOL BS.
I vote this one gets the Blue Ribbon.
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If your watching film over a cup of coffee in the morning, I think there is something wrong with you. How do you fit in porn, springer, and beer drinking? :D
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I think the scroring system is great if used what it was designed for, i.e., a tool to benchmark your progress in specific areas. The goal is not the score but to have that alt monkey that just tried to vulch you get on channel one and whine that you're cheating :)
Right now I'm looking at one statistic in my game - points per hour in a fighter. I figure the higher it goes, the better I'm doing as long as I'm not artificially inflating it (e.g., only vulching capped fields or shooting tailess aircraft on the way down). I was looking at my hit% but I find its direct reflection of how many bombers I've shot at (they don't wiggle and eat lots of bullets), so kinda hard to use as good judge of accuracy.
If any statistic is used for anything other than an honest benchmark, well its plain folly or delusion.
The fun is sitting back after a fire fight and thinking "I can't believe I survived that." The goal is to be able to make a film like WildThing posted in the help area last week. I'm still amazed by that :)
Artificially manipulating stats won't get me there.
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The AH scoring systems purpose is to allow new players the opportunity to succeed and avoid the "oh great....I've ranked 1872 again for the 12th consecutive month...this game sucks and I quit" end result.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This is what the players here are trying to tell you, that the Aces High fighter rank does not provide an accurate metric for gauging skill. They are not telling you to stop "ranking" other players relative to yourself, only that you should eschew inaccurate measures when doing so. The fact that a vast majority of players in Aces High use the in-game ranking system to measure skill does not free that system from fault nor validate their claims.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Two things. What I was saying eariler was that because some really good sticks dont bother with other aspects of the game that contribute to the overall rank, does not make the system flawed. The two groups that decry the system are the ones that cant achieve a good rank, and the ones who could, but dont bother. It is set up to promote good performance in all aspects of the game, which is not a bad thing.
Fighter rank, (which you specifically mentioned) I would argue is an accurate metric for guaging skill. It is just that the scope of the skills measured goes beyond the basic skills involved in a duel. The reason I have thoughts on this is because Steve and I had a BB debate a few years ago regarding furballing skills vs. BnZ/E skills (or knife fighting vs. what he called arena skills). To succeed in the MA both skills need to be mastered. One can succeed solely on knife fighting ACM, or on E managment, tactical SA*, and stretigic SA*. However, if you examine the 5 stats for fighter, working hard on both is rewarded. Again, some people prefer one style over the other, and then claim that because 'PilotA' cant beat them in a duel, but has a higher fighter rank that the ranking is flawed. Saying that fighter rank should equate with one on one coE skill is not a valid premiss because Main Arena is neither 1v1 or coE.[/i]
In both instances the ranking is grading on the total package. (Todd disregard next sentence, its not directed toward you) If you dont wish to participate within the scope the total package, then dont whine that the ranking system doesnt accurately reflect skills. It is after all your choice not to participate.
*Tactical SA is the ability to tulips your local situation.
**Stretigic SA is planning ahead, resulting in being at the right place at the right time for the welfare of you and your countires war effort
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Originally posted by VAQ
A post
* Percentage based upon 37 of 5200
**Percentage based upon the averaged overall and fighter ranking (Tour 47) of the 37 players who participated in this thread
You actually retrieved all this data, and computed the findings?:)
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Murdr, I pretty much agree w/ you. I feel that DA skills and MA skills CAN be two very diiferent things...rank aside. Let's take Shane as an example. He is a very skilled 1V1 pilot, and I can tell you from experience that this goes beyond his MA ride of choice, the LA7. His numbers in the MA aren't particularly remarkable. This COULD be that he has limited SA in what you call Tactical and Strategic areas. Just about every time Shane dies, he tosses out some taunt or other.. Gang dweebs, Ho Tards, runner ack dweebs etc.. oh and don't forget his old standby "Slobber donkeys". This COULD be to cover his own shortcomings in the heretofore mentioned areas of SA. Shane may lose in the MA to a guy or 3 because of his poor SA, but get them in the DA and he would school them until they cried for mommy. OTOH it is equally probable that Shane just doesn't much care about his numbers in the MA and loves to knife fight on the deck against all comers.This isn't an altogether bad situation to be in, when he wins against bad odds he can bask in his own success, when he loses he can toss out one of his taunts.
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, my MA numbers are higher but I have spent time in the DA w/ Shane and WT(thanks guys) and they beat me pretty regularly. So we know that 1v1 they are better pilots than me, at the very least they have mastered some very effective merges which just about determines(merge does) who wins a duel.
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I agree with your post but would go on to say the MA and the DA are completely different. In the DA, if the pilot knows to be as fast as possible at the designated alt, the fight starts at the merge. In the MA it starts in the tower (e.g., how much fuel, what area, how high, whats probably going on there etc.).
I think both compliment each other, but I can't ever seem to find anyone open in the DA. I could really use some 1 vs 1 right now.
In AW we used to duel where the loser of the last duel would get 1k alt advantage. It helped both pilots get better.
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Lets not forget to be sure to fly in and pork the fuel, sink the CVs when a good air battle is in progress, and last but not least always fly at 20K+...
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Originally posted by Murdr
It is set up to promote good performance in all aspects of the game, which is not a bad thing.
[/B]
It's important to remember that total rank is set up to promote those activities conducive to achieving high rank. That does not necessarily mean good performance (as Rod aptly demonstrates), but rather knowledge of how the rank system functions and playing to maximize it. As always, a high rank in fighters or in anything may or may not indicate skill, and that is why it's a flawed measure. We can tell little without context.
Saying that fighter rank should equate with one on one coE skill is not a valid premiss because Main Arena is neither 1v1 or coE.
[/b]
I'm not suggesting that 1v1 skills alone dictate skill. Context often drives fighter rank: how do high ranking pilots fly, and what do they fly? Do they only engage with alt or numbers? Do they pick and choose situations guaranteed to maximize their fighter stats, or do they fly in a manner inconsistent with maximizing them? For instance, vulching sends all fighter rank categories through the roof, especially if someone does it from a carrier parked just offshore from a field. If a player wise to this fact wishes to achieve a phenomenal fighter rank, he'll only ever fly fighter missions where vulching or complete air superiority appear likely.
Other players don't care. They killshooter on purpose, auger when bored, fly into poor odds, or whatever. This makes them no less skilled at flying fighters in any situation than the more rank-minded player mentioned above, but their rank appears substantially lower. Again, fighter rank may or may not indicate skill, but without more information we can't possibly tell for sure.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I generally try to kill the red icon fighters, by putting bullets in them and stuff....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I generally try to kill the red icon fighters, by putting bullets in them and stuff....
Cheater! :D
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I don't know about the DA but in the Ma.. I can tell if a guy is good or not after fighting him a few times. Some guys I will probly never fight because they never attack unless they think they have all the advantages and... they fly the fastest planes and keep up their e so that if the fight ever gets anywhere close to even they can run.
That is a skill but... unimportant to me.
the stats themselves are important to me because I know what I am trying to di that day/week/tour and can use the stats to guage how it is working out.
for most people... K/h indicates risk per hour especialy if it is in relatively slow planes.
lazs
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This is why I was impressed with the ranking system in the first place. If you all you do is avoid any engagement that could get you killed, your k/h will suffer, and possibly k/s. If you pad your rank by only doing cv vulch runs, your points will suffer. All the furballers out there in good or bad sits will leave you in the dust. There are tea leaves to read in how the stats compare with each other.
If you want to follow the list, good luck. (#7 btw is about the dumbest suggestion. If you cant put at least 95% of your bullets on a large field object by straifing, dont bother worrying about rank) The arena will generally not cooperate with your plans. They are all targets of opportunity. If you only make the attempt when there is an opportunity, those that bomb, gv, or whatever all the time, because they like to, will outscore you in points.
I agree that it does not take into account players that dont want to bother with the stats. I agree that the truest measure is the online interaction and the impressions made.
As always, a high rank in fighters or in anything may or may not indicate skill, and that is why it's a flawed measure. We can tell little without context.
Here is where I disagree. The premiss that is always in these types of discussions is to diminish those who do make achievments in performance metrics, on the basis that some choose not to compete. The common thread (including your quote) is not that low ranks dont indicate a lack of skill, its that high ranks dont indicate skill. The system works averages, and consistancy.
I doubt that everyone here is obvlious to the dynamics of the arena. How things very often dont go the way you planned or wanted. Yet it is expected to be believed that high rankers can get away with gamey technics over a months time period consistantly with out acutally having any skill?? Come on:rolleyes:
It reminds me of the joke: How many guitarists does it take to change a lightbulb?
11. One to change it, ten to stand around and tell everyone "Pfft, I could do that"
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Originally posted by SlapShot
SlapShot Hint : What I did instead of flying a bomber, cause I suck in them, I used the JU-87 and switched the sorties from "attack" to "bomber".
HEHEHE... That and Kill-Stealin are the two best things you ever taught this old dog!!!
:rofl
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Originally posted by Murdr
You actually retrieved all this data, and computed the findings?:)
Yes sir. I have done more than that (see below).
Originally posted by Steve
Ya really need to explain this one... at least to me, please?
Sure. My totally crude method:
37 players responded to this thread at the time I was doing my original figuring. Using a player base of 5200, admittedly a rather high number, 37 players comprise 0.712% of the total player base. Upon reflection, the highest rank I have seen is 5120, if I use this figure I come up with 0.72% of the total player base participating in this discussion.
If you go thru this thread and average the overall rank of those responding (Tour 47) you come up with an average rank of 950 (overall) which would be the top 18.27%, using my previous high figure of 5200. Using 5120 it works out to 18.55%.
I logged into the MA last night and took a couple of random samples (same number of players) off the roster. My first sample averaged an overall rank of 1547, placing this hypothetical player in the top 30.21%. My second sample yielded an average overall rank of 1661, placing this hypothetical player in the top 32.44%. I did use 5120 as the total number of players this time around.
I pulled up the squad ranking for Tour 47. Applying the same crude method to the #1 and #2 ranked squads yielded average overall ranks of 1716 (top 33.5%) and 2067 (top 40.37%), respectively (very close to the same number of players; the figures presented represent only those squad members with a reported score. Using the total number of squadron members, which includes some members with a rank of zero, the results are 1103 and 1597 respectively).
So I feel that I was in the ballpark when I said that an extremely small number of players with an average rank/score within the top 18% of all players in the game are participating in a discussion about the lack of merit in said rank/scoring system. I thought this very chivalrous of you guys.
Of course, it is said that chivalry is the most delicate form of contempt. :)
If the lowest ranked 18% of players in the game, say those with an overall rank of 4000 and up, discussed the lack of merit in the rank/scoring system I hazard to guess that it would be recorded as a whine. Yet from the highest ranked it is altruism?
Actually, this seems to be the case. Here is where the real work began, Murdr. I went thru the stats of everyone who responded to this thread looking for a pattern of score whoring. I do not mean just Tour 47 stats this time; I went thru all of them, starting from Tour 12 in many cases. With the exception of a few players, the majority of respondents to this thread generally play it on the straight and narrow as far as scoring goes. Vehicle/boat hit % vs. objects makes a good litmus test. Check out Nexx's Tour 42 veh/boat hit % vs. objects! 118.75%!
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Your basic premise is flawed
I cannot state that a thread discussing the lack of merit in the scoring system is being participated in by those who manipulate said system, and I thought I would be able to. This was my basic premise. I was dead wrong.
Do I still believe that people are judged by their rank in this game- yes, I do, your squaddies and BBS buddies notwithstanding. If I have ever looked up another players rank after a fight, I cannot say that rank does not matter to me. If I have ever compared my rank to others, I cannot say that rank does not matter to me. If I have ever used my rank to deny another player control of the cv (or take it away) I cannot say rank does not matter to me. Is there one among us that has never done any of these things?
...ummm, very few, if you start looking. There is a search function on this BBS, and I was up until 3am last night using it:)
I read that the total number of players is now at or close to 6000? wow
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Originally posted by Steve
Let's take Shane as an example. This COULD be that he has limited SA in what you call Tactical and Strategic areas.
well let me clarify a few of your points. you were cagey to use "could." :)
I almost never don't see the one that gets me. I'm very aware of the situtations i put myself into. survival is not a high high high priority to me, i'll continue to look for a fight even with no ammo if something's close enough by. there are times when i will hightail it out of dodge.
i toss out barbs win or lose. :) and slobberdonkeys is usually reserved for when i log on or log off. and of course my landed msg.
i do so in the hopes of eventually baiting someone to the DA for a little lesson or 3, to help them round out what might be the weakest aspect of their game. namely, being able to handle a con from any advantage or disadvantage in the absense of a buncha buddies.
unfortunately many percieve the generic barbs and taunts i toss out as some kind of a personal effront. then they start to go in on me on ch1 word warrior can be it's own entertainment in it's own way as long as people avoid truly getting personal with it, which many who try and ride a high horse when it comes to "my" smack... can't do themselves. i can't help it if i'm bluntly honest in acknowledging others' suckiness. :) i don't rag on noobs, fwiw.
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Shane I used "Could" because it is one possible explanation. Naturally if I opined that this is actually the case, I would have said that it "Does" explain. I suspect your numbers are attributed to what you posted, much like the latter scenario in my post:
OTOH it is equally probable that Shane just doesn't much care about his numbers in the MA and loves to knife fight on the deck against all comers.
Todd's numbers, WT's... are probably the same way. I haven't checked to be honest, but I suspect they are similar... respectable K/D and K/S with exceptional K/H. IMO simply taking off to find a fight or 3 and have fun tends to naturally generate these kinds of ratios(assuming the pilot is skilled). My K/D is higher not because I am better, but because I often care(not always) if I live or not. Conversely, my K/H is probably lower than yours, Todd's, and WT's. I'm having fun though so I'll let the numbers "fall where they may".
Through experience, I'm convinced that you guys have it right. In other words, striving for a huge K/D, for instance, is more chore than fun.
I understand what motivates you to "toss out barbs" Notice I haven't risen to the bait in a long time. I'm content to sit quietly in the depths and watch the minnows boil on the surface. :)
Vaq, I still think the rank system is not fully indicative of just who the best pilots in the arena are. I'll grant you that a no talent dolt(except perhaps for myself) probably cannot finish in the top 10 or 12 in fighters for the tour. OTOH I think I finished near the top in fighters the last few tours and can easily think of several pilots who are better than me. I like the K/H stat though, it tends to show how aggressive a pilot is. I'm never impressed by a high K/D.. but high K/H is something that garners my respect.
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Steve is better than Shane, I rest my case.
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Originally posted by Steve
Vaq, I still think the rank system is not fully indicative of just who the best pilots in the arena are. I'll grant you that a no talent dolt (except perhaps for myself) probably cannot finish in the top 10 or 12 in fighters for the tour. I like the K/H stat though, it tends to show how aggressive a pilot is. I'm never impressed by a high K/D.. but high K/H is something that garners my respect.
Just to make sure we are on the same page here- I agree with your statement. The rank system is not fully indicative of just who the best pilots in the arena are. I do not contest this.
I kind of think that K/H is just as screwy as the rest of it, tho, and I have more fun with numbers to illustrate:
Tour 47
steve has a K/H of 9.792 (100:32:24)
vaq has a K/H of 9.36 (000:06:24)
According to the score page my one six minute sortie comes awfully close to what you did in one hundred hours. That’s messed up. :D
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I like the kill/hour ratio because of why I fly - i.e., the most bang for my buck or time. But even that I don't think can be used is as a great test to see who is the "best". I know you pointed that out, I just reiterate :) . I don't think too many comanders would be overly impressed by overly agressive pilots bringing back busted aircraft.
And as you said, the best 25% or so of the pilots will be evident somewhere in the stats, but I doubt narrowing it down much further would be accurate. I think if the game had one purpose there would be a test for the best. But since its many things to many people, I guess its more a matter if its bringing you more fun (or feeling of accomplishment) than frustration. Thats one reason I gave up golf :)
I also don't think its fair to dog the "pont ho's". If thats their goal, who am I (or anyone) to rain on their parade. My only goal is get to a point where I can honestly say "chase me at YOUR peril." Now thats a long, long ways off, so the stats I look at are only to show me if I'm progressing or regressing.
I remember years ago on Geni discussions about mathematical formulas that would more successfuly show a pilots skill level ( all that showed in the top 20 were the raw points accumulated). Now we have a much more advanced scoring system, and it could be argued its not a whole lot more successful in picking the "best" pilots. Maybe because the best pilot in the world is the one that clears your six when your energy is gone :D
Seems like a huge argument to state "have fun!"
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
where I can honestly say "chase me at YOUR peril."
Now that you mention it, that is one of my favorites :)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
My only goal is get to a point where I can honestly say "chase me at YOUR peril
My sentiments exactly. Though after many years and thousands of hours I have fallen short.
But there's always the next sortie, the next tour..
I think if I EVER get to that point, which I seriously doubt, the hook will be removed from my mouth.
I'm not so sure I'd like that.
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I average in the 180s every T.O.D without score whoring. (well not much) I dont consider myself a great pilot but rank is somewhat important, only if to take a CV away from some jackarse. Maybe i should score potato if not just to hide cv's from a country jumper belonging to a well established squad in another country..oh sorry wrong post. Anyway's..in reply to Shanes remarks...I wish i could see that attitude from you on Channel 1 bud..very positive..Rod has told me u are a great teacher but I would not approach you for lessons if I was a newbie..quite frankly you frighten me lol. Shane is right though..a new generation of gamers is invading the arena and along with that comes new attitude...alot of foul mouthed trash-talking and disrespecting. Young players see this and feed off of it..veteran pilots need to embrace the newbs and get off our high horse. also everyone score potatos a little..Tell me thats your face doesnt light up a smile when u count 40 objects destroyed :)
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"Steve is better than Shane, I rest my case."
Thats an interesting quote.
Steve i had alot of distaste for your tactics for along time in the m/a but have grown to appreciate them. I even try to mirror them when my patience is available. I think your flying style is more conducive to a real combat scenario. Shane flys like hes playing a game and good for him. My point is there are many different legitamate approaches to the game as far as how a pilot wants to fly...noones being any better than any others.
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Anyone can kill and live in P-51D if they fly smart. I flew it mainly last tour as someone double dawg dared me to, as i had said to him - i think it is the easiest plane in the game.
So, last tour i flew it smart, kept my E etc. etc. etc. got lots of kills had some fun, didnt die once. Albeit i didnt fly it as much as i would have liked because of work etc.
Yesterday, first fighter sortie of the tour i decide to go in low in p51 and furball with CV planes.. you can guess the outcome. :D
No shot at Steve, as he is great at what he does. But i have much respect Shane and his style of play.
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Tell me thats your face doesnt light up a smile when u count 40 objects destroyed
Oh indeed yes it does.But in my case score isnt even a thought.I wouldnt think "man thats gonna give me bookoo points." I would more like think.Man I just blew up a ****load of stuff .":)
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Originally posted by DrDea
Score potatos are score potatos.They would find a way to game the scoreing system.They kinda flock together anyway.Me?I'll take a good old 3 minute nail biter and lose and have MUCH more fun than those dweebs.:lol
Exactly.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Here is where I disagree. The premiss that is always in these types of discussions is to diminish those who do make achievments in performance metrics, on the basis that some choose not to compete. The common thread (including your quote) is not that low ranks dont indicate a lack of skill, its that high ranks dont indicate skill. The system works averages, and consistancy.
[/B]
That's not what I said. What I said was that rank may indicate skill. So a high rank might very well reflect a deadly player who is well-rounded in all of the statistics that inform fighter rank. It might also reflect someone who games the statistics by picking and choosing fighter engagements with the greatest opportunity for maximizing fighter rank. Naturally, low ranks may or may not indicate a lack of skill as well. Again, context matters.
Yet it is expected to be believed that high rankers can get away with gamey technics over a months time period consistantly with out acutally having any skill??
[/B]
No, some high rankers employ gamey techniques over a month-long period. So in a sense, you could argue that they are skilled at gaming the fighter rank category. However, is this what you truly wish to measure with this statistic?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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i cannot seem to be able to acess the flying part of this game ?
im new here ,but a very good pilot . lol
anyway im lost here ?
i got to my start menu ,programs, 4 aces high icons , an nothing works but the film viewer? i've installed everything ?got user id password every thing ? where do u actuall go to start playing this game ?ahhhhhhhhh!
sorry bout that , in desperate need of help,
twigace
twig292003@yahoo.com
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I really missunderstood this thread... I thought the original poster was making fun of the gamey score potatos... turns out he wasn't? guess the score makes fun of itself.
I don't know if the high rankers are any good or not... I don't ever know who they are. I do know that some of the best virtual pilots I have ever seen are ranked pretty low tho. Everyone knows the good ones.... very few know the high ranked ones.
lazs
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Razor
OverBKil
crowMAW
AKPanthr
COORS
Nexx
Murdr
AKOwl
Spazzter
SHawk
SlowHand
GooseCH
Swoop
MetaTron
Stang
rthus
FF1
TW9
Letitbe
Busher
Ever hear of any of these guys laz2? This is the top 20 overall for the last tour. With the exception of spazzter, I am familer with all these names. Of these (no surprise) Stang is the highest ranked fighter. Cant speak for these other guys, but I didnt fly any ju87s or score other dive bombers as attack for facilities, or other gamey stuff like that. Could you point out the posers in the list for me?
Here were the top 6 fighters for last tour.
kappa
Stang
Fester
Steve
Kosk
Taki
Since the rank system is such a joke, would somebody please point out the names of the slackers in the list that have no business being mentioned among top fighters in the MA...not DA...MA.
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overall... heard of swoop but never am around him... killed a few of the other guys but was not memorable.
top fighters... haven't fought any of em I don't think... got killed by kappa once. Maybe killed steve or got killed by him not sure... never see those guys.
If those guys are good... I will probly never know... they don't fight with the likes of me or... they fight during euro times.
lazs
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just re-read your post. Guess its that they dont fight with the likes of you, lol, cuz most of them fly US primetime. If I had to make a list of pilots who are extremely dangerous when jumped, kappa, fester, and stang would be on alot of peoples list, mabey taki too, but I have not encountered him much.
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tw9 you sould be nicer to newbies. you didnt tell them that a good ratio of those bombers heading for the strat are out to work on their bomber score, and will tear them up if they even think of attacking them. Or that the acks spread around the perimeter of the strat will tear them up if they try making straifing runs in a ju87.
Or about the hastle gv gooning a base. You get there, friendlies all died, then you die. Drive all that way, ack pops up and kills you, or tank is sitting in ambush. Drive all that way again, someone elses troops take the map room first.
Oh, and dont forget what those attack jabo guys at the strat will do to your c47 when you go to resupply.
Like I said, tricks will only get you so far, and the arena will often not cooperate with what you want to do.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Since the rank system is such a joke, would somebody please point out the names of the slackers in the list that have no business being mentioned among top fighters in the MA...not DA...MA.
Why stop at the top 6? Let's look at the top 20 like you did with overall rank.
kappa
Stang
Fester
Steve
Kosk (who?)
Taki
Urchin01
WinGZero
succubus (who?)
Wilbuz
MoRphEuS (who?)
Gryffin
MankindV (who?)
Razor
COORS
crowMAW
Swoop
KillnU
Souless
Tarmac
Some of these guys are excellent sticks. Others I have no idea who they are whatsoever. And some have reputations for flying only with major advantages in numbers, alt, or speed. Why not ask some of them if they feel that that fighter rank provides an accurate metric for comparing them to, say, WldThing? Or Honch?
One of your top five fighters scored 1/5th of his kills in an F4U-1C. Want to wager what he was doing with it?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Why stop at the top 6? Let's look at the top 20 like you did with overall rank.
Some of these guys are excellent sticks. Others I have no idea who they are whatsoever. And some have reputations for flying only with major advantages in numbers, alt, or speed. Why not ask some of them if they feel that that fighter rank provides an accurate metric for comparing them to, say, WldThing? Or Honch?
One of your top five fighters scored 1/5th of his kills in an F4U-1C. Want to wager what he was doing with it?
-- Todd/Leviathn
As far as your top five pilot in the chog, it appears he would have done better without it. His k/d in the chog is 22% lower than in his main ride. My own chog stats for last tour are nearly identical, which makes me question how much padding could have came from it. He appears to have been the best in his ride for that tour, regardless of whether you respect the style required for it. I dont see a need to put a question mark by his name. I know of morpheus, so I would remove that one too. I dont know mankindv, but it looks like his spitv is pretty good.
Again, MA requires a wider variety of skills than DA. I have no doubt that if WT or you set out for a top fighter spot, the competition would only be from a select few individuals. What may disturb some is that a few of those individuals may be HighEStayOutofTrouble style players, but in the MA it is no less valid than ComeNearMeWithAnyAdvantageand YouWillStillDie. The very best are masters of both. So there is really no need to ask these guys how the rank system compairs them with name pilots, because everyone realizes where the name pilots would rank if they chose to.
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If the 1/5th of total kill thing in a Chog was me, if you meant after i helped beat down the defensive cap did i vulch, heck yea i did. on the other hand, i did have near half my kills in a 38, which is typically a nice fat target, so i dont mind a 1/5th. of course, it may not have been me:) the numbers worked out tho.
~S~
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Originally posted by Murdr
As far as your top five pilot in the chog, it appears he would have done better without it.
[/B]
If we can guess that this person just flew the F4U-1C from carriers (which may be reasonable given that a land-based aircraft was his usual ride of choice), and that he could pick and choose when to take off from carriers, then things begin to make more sense. It's not the K/D that you need to look at here, but rather the K/H. Few planes kill faster in a vulching environment than the F4U-1C. This player flies the 190D9 for survival -- K/D, K/S, and points -- and the F4U-1C is for K/H. Pair them together and you've got a high ranking. Skill? Certainly a possibility, but I can't say without knowing how he or she actually flies.
I dont see a need to put a question mark by his name. I know of morpheus, so I would remove that one too. I dont know mankindv, but it looks like his spitv is pretty good.
[/B]
The question marks are for people I've never heard of before. It doesn't mean that I find them disagreeable or unworthy, just that I don't know anything about them.
So there is really no need to ask these guys how the rank system compairs them with name pilots, because everyone realizes where the name pilots would rank if they chose to.
That's just it... I don't think the average player understands the shortcomings of rank in this regard. If the ranking system does not rank based purely on skill, then it is not an accurate measure of skill. If some of those who can fly both conservatively and aggressively (and let's face it, most who fly aggressively could probably fly conservatively with ease) choose not to fly for fighter rank, then what does that say about its accuracy?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by killnu
If the 1/5th of total kill thing in a Chog was me, if you meant after i helped beat down the defensive cap did i vulch, heck yea i did. on the other hand, i did have near half my kills in a 38, which is typically a nice fat target, so i dont mind a 1/5th. of course, it may not have been me:) the numbers worked out tho.
~S~
Nah, I was referring to another. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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It is suggested that the rank system is flawed and invalid for the following reasons:
1. Better pilots can be named who are not at the top.
Answer: They chose not to compete
a) If pilots have to choose to compete, then its the metrics that are flawed.
Answer: This type of thinking is not in line with real world metrics or competition. Teachers teach what their students need to know for their future pursuits, but the curriculum is geared to teaching what is going to be tested. Military personel train to be proficient at their job, but the training is geared toward being good at the qualification test. Playing toward metrics is part in parcel with competition, and its grading.
2. The system can be gamed.
Answer: Of course it can, but the real deal will trump the poser. If the better pilot is actually trying to compete, they will win.
a) The rank system therefore is set up to promoting activites which are conducive to high rank, not good performance.
Answer: I would argue that for the most part, they are one in the same. You may counter that each individual stat can be manipulated in a way that is not truely productive. I would point out that generally there is a statistic of equal weight that will provide a counter-balance. However as I said before, playing toward what is being tested is part in parcel with competition, and is the nature of the beast no matter how perfect the system of measurment is.
Enjoyed the good discussion, even though I was appearently in the minority :aok
{edit} Just saw your post. Wanted to conceed the point that mabey the average player does not understand the short commings of the ranks. As far as its accuracy, I believe just like any other competition scale, it is only accuratate to measure those who chose to compete. I dont know that it is the best way, it is in my opinion the best way I have see to date. It would be hard for statistics to pluck the best out of a group, if they dont want to participate. It seems to me that it is conducive for the best of a group to emerge if they want to.
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cc levi, no biggie either way :)
~S~
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Most of these guys must be pretty good , if I spent 130 hours (ave) a month (like some of them) doing something I'd expect to get pretty damn good at it.
The top 10 must be the domain of the single man - enjoy it while you can ;)
Wait till you got a wife pinging you on your six everytime you spend "all that waste of time" on the computer.
Redd
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Redd if total hours flown online in flightsims was a measure, I'd be a GOD.
Just don't fly as much as I used to.
Think golf. With every weekend your waiting for that slice..
Your never disappointed.
But I solved that, I quit golf.
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If we could somehow measure the “true” fighter skill of all players and compare that to the AH fighter ranking system, I think that we would find that it is both flawed and yet generally accurate. Suppose that we could compare the “true” skill of the top 50 ranked players to those ranked 251 through 300, and then compare those groups to a group ranked 1001 through 1050, and then again to a group ranked 5001 through 5050. Imagine putting these 200 players into a dueling ladder. I’d bet that 17 of the top 20 in this ladder are going to come from the top 50 group. At the same time, I’d also bet that a more than a few from the 251 – 300 group would pummel some in the top 50. It wouldn’t be surprising to see 1 or 2 from the 1001 – 1050 group do well. I think that it would be surprising however, to see anyone from the 5001 – 5050 group beat anyone from the higher groups.
While certainly not a rule, better players gravitate toward higher ranks. This doesn’t mean that some very skilled players may hold only average rankings.
It’s a mistake to place a lot of value on the AH ranking system, but it is also a mistake to write it off as being meaningless. For a flight sim ranking system, it’s pretty good.
One thing that a lot of folks don’t seem to get, is that AH is many games in one. It is a furball game, a strat game, a team game, a solo game, a buff game, a GV game, a survival game, a killing game, a suicide game, an ego game, a silly game, a social game, and even a rank game (and many, many more types of games). We each can choose to play or ignore any of these games.
One thing is for sure, lots of folks are pretty darn sure that their way of playing the game is the only pure way, and the only way to have fun.
eskimo
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Originally posted by nopoop
Think golf. With every weekend your waiting for that slice..
Your never disappointed.
But I solved that, I quit golf. [/B]
I'm pretty keen golfer Nopoop - currently off the course with a nagging injury.
guess that's why I'm flying again - some free time.
bugger of game - golf that is - few minutes of excitment , surrounded by hours of frustration.
Redd
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Originally posted by Murdr
I know of morpheus, so I would remove that one too.
lol... You know me do ya? Funny thing though... I know nothing of you nor your tallent.. So why comment on mine? Rank is a bunch of chit... There is lets say... A ballace bettween skill and Rank... MA and DA are two entirely different worlds... If your great in the MA, dont be surprised it you suck in the DA and vise versa...
If you want to know a great over all pilot of the game... I know of only one name that comes to mind and does deserve alot of credit... GBaLL... All the others, well, are great sticks, and they deserve credit also, but G is best over all imo.. from flying with him and against him in the DA...
As far as we go Murdr... Im in the MA all the time.. DA also... Feel free to call me out to the DA anytime you have a few minutes... Rank means squat... I dont care what any of you think or say or feel.... Study all the stats you want till your blue in the face... When it comes to 1v1, stats mean chit...
Morph...
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I dont care what any of you think or say or feel.... Study all the stats you want till your blue in the face... When it comes to 1v1, stats mean chit...
No truer words were ever spoken.
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When it comes to 1v1, stats mean chit...
Well this is true... but not really relevent to what Murdr was talking about. Murdr is discussing the MA... 1v1's of any length are very rare there.
As For G, well, he is one of my favorite wingies. :)
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Originally posted by Steve
As For G, well, he is one of my favorite wingies. :)
What a coincidence, he's one of my favorite targets
ack-ack
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hmm...well... Name recognition among 5-6 thousand people over the last 8 years to me always seemed to me somewhat of a complement, and opinions too for that matter regardless of their context. Ive questioned comments by people Ive never heard of on ch1 after they've gotten a proxie or ram kill on me to find out I had killed them repeatedly in the past, and they were genuinely happy to get one on me. to each his own I guess.
As for GBall in fighter rank he has finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th...and more recently 347th, and a 2nd overall rank. This would appear to support my claim that its validity is limited only to those who choose to compete for rank. By the way, I have fought aginst, and with GBall over the years more than I can count. Always a good time.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Last night some noob on channel 1 was telling USGrim to STFU cause he didn't know what he was talking about ... "with a rank like yours ... blah blah blah". USGrim would hand this guys his prettythang on a platter, but because USGrim had a rank in the 3000s, he was assumed to be easy.
That's pretty funny.
Still, I'll sometimes check rank on someone that popped me to just to see if they were any good or if they were just lucky and I was sucking at the moment.
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murdr.. I never heard of you. did you play under another handle? I don't like dueling myself.. I like the MA but... I like medium performance planes that force me to get in and mix it up. I could fly a Deee 9 or pee 51 but I would get bored and then fight it and get killed.
Rank is particularly unimpressive in an arena where you can fly any plane you like and furballs are all full of the slower planes whose SA is overwhelmed. A fast plane can vultch the edges with impunity. Most people do not think this is a particularly admirable skill. I think people feel that this "skill" is what makes rank so bogus.
lazs
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Everybody should fly Corsairs all the time. Its the only way we'd know who was good and who wasn't.
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Well... This thread is just getting a bit too long, but even so I thought I'd add my 2 to it...
Rank is easy to get... You dont nessesrily have to be very good overall at the game itself more so than you do have to be good at gaming the game... Fly fighters smart, and score as fighter when odds are in your favor and you can get a good amount of kills in a short period of time... For the rest of the time fly attack and score that way... Milk run blah blah blah... Same goes for bomber... Milk run with a single 17 or a Ju87 with the BAB (BigprettythangBomb)... GVs.... Well... I HATE GV's... But they too count so when the opportunity arises..Spawn camp... Yup There I said it ok... Spawn camp... Ask TopGunz how he gets 80--90% of those kills... If he says its by any other means other than camping then his CO and my friend is lieing... THere are a few more things one can do do really get GV rank down but those have been coverd I bleive...
So I ask all of you who submited to this thread... To any of the above mentiond activities require any considerable level of skill? I mean it really is something that someone about a month or two into the game can accomplish if they sit down and really work at it...
I still stand behind what I said before... Rank and 1v1 means nothing and are in no way connected... If some want to beleive that.... Well here ya go:aok :aok :aok
Morph
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Originally posted by Murdr
Razor
OverBKil
crowMAW
AKPanthr
COORS
Nexx
Murdr
AKOwl
Spazzter
SHawk
SlowHand
GooseCH
Swoop
MetaTron
Stang
rthus
FF1
TW9
Letitbe
Busher
Ever hear of any of these guys laz2? This is the top 20 overall for the last tour. With the exception of spazzter, I am familer with all these names. Of these (no surprise) Stang is the highest ranked fighter. Cant speak for these other guys, but I didnt fly any ju87s or score other dive bombers as attack for facilities, or other gamey stuff like that. Could you point out the posers in the list for me?
Here were the top 6 fighters for last tour.
kappa
Stang
Fester
Steve
Kosk
Taki
Since the rank system is such a joke, would somebody please point out the names of the slackers in the list that have no business being mentioned among top fighters in the MA...not DA...MA.
The only slacker I see on this list is Fester.
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This discusion is like 2 guys golfing. 1 guy wins (hence better at golf) the other argues that he is realy better because he can hit the longest drive.
And since when did playing the game as designed become "gaming the game"?
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
This discusion is like 2 guys golfing. 1 guy wins (hence better at golf) the other argues that he is realy better because he can hit the longest drive.
[/B]
That's not what I've been arguing here at all. A number of players just don't care about score but would probably be capable of ranking highly if they bothered. Slime comes to mind as someone who sported pretty poor stats across the board in some tours, but these stemmed from his playing style rather than his lack of skill. In fact, he was quite good but chose to fly in a manner ill-suited for rank as structured in Aces High.
And as I've said repeatedly, rank certainly may indicate skill. But it is nonetheless an imperfect measure and is best taken in context.
Edit: I dug up this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60898) old announcement declaring that Drex was "a virtuoso and in a class by himself. He is the best online pilot we've ever seen going back about 15 years through 3 different sims and not just marginally so." The tour just prior to that announcement he wasn't even ranked among the top 100 in fighter rank, and I believe he's only ranked above 100 once in several years. He sucks! :)
So if Drex is the best online pilot (i.e. overall golfer, not just furballer or whatnot), then how could the fighter rank not pick up on that?
And since when did playing the game as designed become "gaming the game"?
[/B]
So you designed the game to reward people who pick and choose when they score sorties as fighters in order to maximize their stats? Okay.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by gofaster
Everybody should fly Corsairs all the time. Its the only way we'd know who was good and who wasn't.
If that was the case... I'd suck! lol I suck anyways but I'd suck to a level never seen in AH past or present... Although I do have a liking for that little f4u-1... Shes a fun one:aok
M
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Boy that golf scoring system must be totaly screwed, because the best golfer I know of dosn't care to try for a good score any more, and instead just goes out to see how many hole in ones he can make. But lesser players always get better scores. Man that golf score system sucks. It just dosn't reflect who is the better gollfer.
HiTech
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Boy that golf scoring system must be totaly screwed, because the best golfer I know of dosn't care to try for a good score any more, and instead just goes out to see how many hole in ones he can make. But lesser players always get better scores. Man that golf score system sucks. It just dosn't reflect who is the better gollfer.
if he doesnt care about his score...why does it matter? maybe people should stop trying to give credit where its not wanted...
shouldent you be coding ah2 instead of writing silly golf analogies on the board...
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Both are in my job descriptions vorticon.
HiTech
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Ok, I can't resist this thread any longer. I think we have established the fact that flying for statistics is only a meaningful measure of someone's skill if compared with others who are also flying for statistics. That is to say, any pilot regardless of skill, if he really tries, could fly a poor performance plane, low, slow, and stupid and demonstrate poor statitics. Does this mean that player is poor? No. It just means he isn't trying. So, comparing those with skill who don't try to fly smart, with those who do does not work.
The whole ranking system itself is a competitive system. Your rank is relative to everyone else in the arena, it is not an absolute value. Your 15 to 1 k/d ratio and 15% hit % is ranked according to how it compares to everyone elses. Because rank is competitve the validity of it as a measuring tool is directly proportional to the number of players and percentage of the player base that choose to pursue it. To put it simply, the more people playing for rank, the more competitive the system and therefore the more meaningful rank itself becomes.
This same competitive system holds true in things such as duelling ladders. The number of players in a ladder and the higher the overall skill of the participants the greater the achievement of finishing higher.
Because of the relative and competitve nature of rankings and their constituent statistics in general posts such as these actually serve those flying for rank as it makes their relative success much more meaningful. The more educated participants in the ranking system the better.
As for me personally, I have always flown with realism in mind. Score or rank was always just a natural bi-product of flying as close to what I've read real pilots in WW2 flew like. Call this score whoring, call it what you like, but flying in this manner and using what statistical measurements the game offers as a tool for bettering myself has proved successful over a decade of personal experience. Whether you fly for rank or not, the statistics themselves provide a very concrete way of measuring certain facets of your gameplay. Naturally there are ways to distort some or all of the statistics somewhat, I think they are not as easily manipulated as has been stated. This is especially true of Fighter rank.
A common misperception with regard to Fighter rank and what players like Steve achieve is that it is easy. Just fly a fast plane and engage only with the advantage right? Well, everyone knows this but what most don't understand is doing this in and of itself may sound easy enough, but very few people have the focus and discipline to perpetuate this style of play over a 30-day camp. The very human propensity to give in to greed, overzealousness, and impatience is overwhelming to most. One day of giving in to greed, impatience, or stupidty will ruin your fighter rank for the entire camp. So, even attaining fighter rank in this way is an achievement requiring superior SA, Gunnery, and substantial flying skill with incredible amounts of patience and discipline. Finding the ideal situation to employ these tactics are relatively few and far between, especially on certain maps, most of the time you are employing these tactics in circumstances far less than the ideal (ie: vastly outnumbered). Easy to critisize this style of play, not so easy to execute it yourself long-term. Try to fly in this manner and achieve success comparable to Steve's over a 30 day camp, you will be enlightened.
Zazen
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Originally posted by hitech
Both are in my job descriptions vorticon.
HiTech
You put out a fine product/drug HiTech... I cant imagine what I would want to do more on an off day from work then play this most addictive thing called Aces High...
Fact of the matter is that there are many ways in which one can enjoy this game... Some like to go for rank, some like to go for just good 1v1 fights, others enjoy the strat side of the game... You can GV it when you get tired of fighters, or bombers or Jabo; none of which are in any particular order... Or you can just log on to BS for a while then hit the sack for the night... This is whey people pay 15 a month... To do with it as they wish and enjoy the game/drug...;)
We cant knock people for furballing, flying for score or sticking to just GVs... or bombers or Jabo ect ect.. you get my point... Its what makes the game fun for you is all that matters:aok
Jeff/Morpheus
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Originally posted by hitech
Boy that golf scoring system must be totaly screwed, because the best golfer I know of dosn't care to try for a good score any more, and instead just goes out to see how many hole in ones he can make. But lesser players always get better scores. Man that golf score system sucks. It just dosn't reflect who is the better gollfer.
You've pretty much made my point that context matters.
If a sizeable number of players in golf suddenly played only to see how many holes in one they could make while everyone else played for score, then the golf scoring system would not provide an accurate measure of skill. It would rank winners and losers based on existing golf rules, sure, but as a metric for skill it would suffer.
The AH scoring system is a bit more complex to compare to something like a golf score anyway. I hate to say it, but it seems closer to figure skating than golf. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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If a sizeable number of players in golf suddenly played only to see how many holes in one they could make while everyone else played for score, then the golf scoring system would not provide an accurate measure of skill. It would rank winners and losers based on existing golf rules, sure, but as a metric for skill it would suffer.
Bull puppy.
The system would still accuratly provide a measure of golf skill. But your players are no longer playing golf they are now playing a different game. And since your players are not interested in their golf score, they wouldn't even keep track.
So are you interested in playing golf, or do you just want to head to the driving range. Both are perfectly acceptible, but don't try tell the golfers they should forget about it and just go to the driving range instead, because in your view distance is the only TRUE method for messuring a golfers talents.
HiTech
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Originally posted by gofaster
That's pretty funny.
Still, I'll sometimes check rank on someone that popped me to just to see if they were any good or if they were just lucky and I was sucking at the moment.
That's a complete waste of time. I'm average at best and scored 17th in overall rank the one tour I 'gamed' for points and I really didn't try all that hard.
Rank don't mean jack...
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Originally posted by DipStick
Rank don't mean jack...
rank (adj.) - very offensive in smell or taste
ack-ack
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The good thing is that I'm better at golf. But even playing college golf and carrying a scratch handicap(Lie...4 handicap now) I still haven't hit a hole-in-one in all my years. I can though down a beer between holes. Is that relevant?
Drex
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Originally posted by hitech
The system would still accuratly provide a measure of golf skill. But your players are no longer playing golf they are now playing a different game. And since your players are not interested in their golf score, they wouldn't even keep track.
[/B]
If those players are playing something different but the game continues to rank them based on the same scoring system, then the ranking standard is not accurate insofar as absolute skill goes. Those who don't care about rank don't keep track of it, but those who do care will follow it and may draw erroneous conclusions about ability because the system continues to rank those who don't care about rank.
So are you interested in playing golf, or do you just want to head to the driving range. Both are perfectly acceptible, but don't try tell the golfers they should forget about it and just go to the driving range instead, because in your view distance is the only TRUE method for messuring a golfers talents.
[/B]
I'm not sure where you're coming up with this analogy. I'm all for folks flying any way they want including flying for score. I cautioned against using rank alone to assess skill since it fails to account for certain behaviors and rewards others disproportionately. In other words, fighter rank presents a great measure of how well people engage in activities designed to maximize fighter rank. I personally would consider someone more "skilled" if he or she manages a high fighter rank by flying in a well-rounded manner without manipulating fighter and attack sortie settings to increase the odds of high tally missions with low risk. Or if he or she manages such a rank without vulching. We can't really know that without context.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Most of you guys seem like idiots. What do you want? Do you want no scoring system? Maybe you want only a DA score to count ( that's VERY realistic)
AH has the best score/rank system of any game IMO.
The best players in this game are the one's with the arena skills IMO, and that is the most like a real combat flight/fight. A DA fight is NOTHING like a real combat fight.
Real WWII combat was based on SA , like in the MA.
That being said, I suck in the MA, but I feel I do okay 1v1. A guy like Steve or COORS can see the whole picture, find the good fights and live to tell about it in the MA.......not a lot of players have that sense and skill.
HTC and Dale, you have the best score system I have seen
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Originally posted by NUKE
Most of you guys seem like idiots. What do you want? Do you want no scoring system? Maybe you want only a DA score to count ( that's VERY realistic)
[/B]
Do you even read what I post, or do you just shoot from the hip and hope you've hit the mark?
The best players in this game are the one's with the arena skills IMO, and that is the most like a real combat flight/fight. A DA fight is NOTHING like a real combat fight.
[/B]
Why do you keep bringing the DA and dueling into this discussion? Curious.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Do you even read what I post, or do you just shoot from the hip and hope you've hit the mark?
[/B]
Why do you keep bringing the DA and dueling into this discussion? Curious.
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
That was my first post here, now Im curious. (maybe I should ask if you read what I post)
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Originally posted by NUKE
That was my first post here, Im now Im curious.
In your post, you mentioned the DA, dueling, and 1v1 fights no less than three times as if somehow that has any relevance to what I've been arguing here.
It doesn't, but please do continue.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
In your post, you mentioned the DA, dueling, and 1v1 fights no less than three times as if somehow that has any relevance to what I've been arguing here.
It doesn't, but please do continue.
-- Todd/Leviathn
LOL, really? I havent posted here before...better re-check.
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AND btw Todd, I wasn't even referencing what you posted.
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Originally posted by NUKE
LOL, really? I havent posted here before...better re-check.
Stop being dense. In your one single post you mentioned dueling, DA, and 1v1 fighting at least three times even though my point about fighter rank has nothing to do with including furballers or rewarding dueling.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by NUKE
AND btw Todd, I wasn't even referencing what you posted.
'K, sorry. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Stop being dense. In your one single post you mentioned dueling, DA, and 1v1 fighting at least three times even though my point about fighter rank has nothing to do with including furballers or rewarding dueling.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Hey dummy, it was YOU who asked me
Why do you keep bringing the DA and dueling into this discussion? Curious
after my FIRST post here
NOT TO MENTION THAT I NEVER RESPONDED OR POSTED TO YOU .
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Sorry Todd
I was late in the response, no offense to you sir.
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NUKE, no problem. I figured as much.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Dale....just tell them why you have this system in place...they'll understand that....maybe.
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oooo... oooo....ooooo... i know this one! Mr. Kottah!
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O my god, it this thread every going to stop?... If you dont like the scoring system, write some code and send it to HiTech and Skuzzy.....I am sure they will take the help imput with open arms and put it into the game, well or the round file...
SkipNutz
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easy Horschak.
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Originally posted by Steve
easy Horschak.
Steve you talking to me?
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Originally posted by T1loady
Steve you talking to me?
Youngster !!!
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I guess you think im a kid. Ill shut up...until i have something grown up to say..... :mad:
SkipNutz
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"bugger of game - golf that is - few minutes of excitment , surrounded by hours of frustration"
I feel your pain here, nothing worse than when everyone's hitting on the beer cart hottie, and she can't get back to you.
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Originally posted by T1loady
I guess you think im a kid. Ill shut up...until i have something grown up to say..... :mad:
SkipNutz
SkipNutz ... just kiddin' with ya.
Shane's line was taken from a character in the ever popular show ... "Welcome back Kotter" who was a school teacher that returned to his old inner city school and taught a group of "tuffer" and "not so smart" inner city kids.
Steve repsonse was showing that he knew who the character was that ALWAYS tried to answer question by jumping out of his seat screaming ... "oooo oooo oooo"
If you didn't recognize the inferences to all of the above, I would consider you a "youngster" and had not ever seen the show. It was one of the most popular shows in its day.
The star character in the "group" was John Travolta ... Vinnie if I remember correctly.
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Originally posted by hitech
Bull puppy.
The system would still accuratly provide a measure of golf skill. But your players are no longer playing golf they are now playing a different game. And since your players are not interested in their golf score, they wouldn't even keep track.
So are you interested in playing golf, or do you just want to head to the driving range. Both are perfectly acceptible, but don't try tell the golfers they should forget about it and just go to the driving range instead, because in your view distance is the only TRUE method for messuring a golfers talents.
HiTech
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm not sure where you're coming up with this analogy. I'm all for folks flying any way they want including flying for score. I cautioned against using rank alone to assess skill since it fails to account for certain behaviors and rewards others disproportionately. In other words, fighter rank presents a great measure of how well people engage in activities designed to maximize fighter rank. I personally would consider someone more "skilled" if he or she manages a high fighter rank by flying in a well-rounded manner without manipulating fighter and attack sortie settings to increase the odds of high tally missions with low risk. Or if he or she manages such a rank without vulching. We can't really know that without context.
-- Todd/Leviathn
LMAO. "I'm not sure where comming up with this, but by my third sentence, I will play back into your analogy."
Try this. HiTech your golf tournement is screwed up. Tiger shows up every month and only grabs a 3w and leaves his bag at the clubhouse. Duval does bring his bag on the course, but he only ever uses his 5I and 7I. (They dont use putters because they dont enjoy that part of golf.) Micklson shows up with only a PW and a putter. (obvious dweeb, he likes to putt)
Meanwhile there is this no name over here that brought a gps device that has the entire course mapped down to the 1/2 inch, and is using it to his advantage on the course. And some of these guys are playing with hi tech composite clubs, special core balls, and laser range finders.
The reason your tournement is porked is because Tiger is the best golfer, but it does not show up on the leaderboard. HiTech, you should change the rules of golf because it does not take into account Tigers, Micklsons, or Duvals behaivor.
Another reason it is porked is some of these guys are doing everything they can within the rules to place as high as they can on the leaderboard. I personally would consider it skill if these guys would show up on your course sight unseen, with a bag full of reclaimed balls, and a set of clubs where the heads of the woods were actually made of wood.
Until you find a way to handicap the players in your tournement so that the leaderboard shows who is really skilled, instead of just the players that are trying to win the tournement, I am going to tell all the other players that it doesnt matter where they finished in the tournement.
After all I know which aspect of the game requires true skill, and I know who has mastered that skill, and they should be winning the tournements in my opinion.
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I cant ever get past the fediddlein windmill
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Originally posted by Murdr
LMAO. "I'm not sure where comming up with this, but by my third sentence, I will play back into your analogy."
Try this. HiTech your golf tournement is screwed up. Tiger shows up every month and only grabs a 3w and leaves his bag at the clubhouse. Duval does bring his bag on the course, but he only ever uses his 5I and 7I. (They dont use putters because they dont enjoy that part of golf.) Micklson shows up with only a PW and a putter. (obvious dweeb, he likes to putt)
Meanwhile there is this no name over here that brought a gps device that has the entire course mapped down to the 1/2 inch, and is using it to his advantage on the course. And some of these guys are playing with hi tech composite clubs, special core balls, and laser range finders.
The reason your tournement is porked is because Tiger is the best golfer, but it does not show up on the leaderboard. HiTech, you should change the rules of golf because it does not take into account Tigers, Micklsons, or Duvals behaivor.
Another reason it is porked is some of these guys are doing everything they can within the rules to place as high as they can on the leaderboard. I personally would consider it skill if these guys would show up on your course sight unseen, with a bag full of reclaimed balls, and a set of clubs where the heads of the woods were actually made of wood.
Until you find a way to handicap the players in your tournement so that the leaderboard shows who is really skilled, instead of just the players that are trying to win the tournement, I am going to tell all the other players that it doesnt matter where they finished in the tournement.
After all I know which aspect of the game requires true skill, and I know who has mastered that skill, and they should be winning the tournements in my opinion.
So the ranking computer should recognize that you are entering a fight low on E, ammo or friendlies? Or it should recognize that you just did a great job on forcing an overshoot on a better turning plane? I'd like to see the code for these situations.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
So the ranking computer should recognize that you are entering a fight low on E, ammo or friendlies? Or it should recognize that you just did a great job on forcing an overshoot on a better turning plane? I'd like to see the code for these situations.
eskimo
Oh, and I forgot...Another reason your tournement is porked is because I know some guys that are really excelent at playing out of the bunkers. They enjoy it, and try to do it every chance they get, but they're not on top of the leaderboard either. Handicap their spot on the leaderboard too.
While your at it, some of the most skilled golfers I know attend your tournement, and by the ninth hole they are out of beer. They never make it to the 10th because they are drinking at the clubhouse. That is how they get the most enjoyment out of your tournement. Dont forget to handicap those golfers to the top of the leaderboard too.
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Ahhhh Vinnie Barbarino.Thats been ages
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Dude, I have NEVER heard of that show... EVER. Hell, I thought shane was talking about South Park.. which I don't watch but I have least heard of. When was this other show on TV? I figured I was at least as old as Shane....
Anyway.. Murdr.. Good, good job on the analogy thingie. I understand what you are saying perfectly, and you said it better than I ever could have.
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Thanks for essentially make my point for me, Murdr. Let me elaborate.
First, at no point did I state that we should replace the current scoring/ranking system with some new system that measures only what I want it to measure. This is where you and HiTech both wrongly believe that I wish to impose some new standard upon the current scoring system in order to boost myself or people who fly in a manner I prefer. I did argue that context matters since rank alone doesn't tell us much about how someone flies; we know the ends but not the means.
Second, I enjoy the subtle shift this discussion has now taken from measuring skill to measuring success. These two things differ (not unexpectedly since the current ranking system measures success with total accuracy and skill with only some accuracy). The example you provided perfectly fits this distinction. Would you reasonably argue that Tiger Woods possesses less absolute skill than the no-name player in your example? All other things being equal, Tiger Woods would beat that player any day of the week in all situations. And yet the no-name player succeeds in the tournament because Woods, despite his skill, does not engage in the sorts of activities conducive to winning.
My point in this thread has been that rank does not necessarily provide an accurate measure for skill, though I recognize that in a game sense it provides an accurate measure of how successfully people engage in activities that, on the whole, increase fighter rank. Think of it this way... if Tiger Woods brings all of his clubs and a GPS device, he's going to defeat a lesser-skilled player who does the same. He will succeed. If the no-name player brings all of the clubs and the GPS device but Woods does not, then the no-name player succeeds. If Woods and the no-name player both bring all of their clubs and a GPS device with them, Woods wins. If Woods plays against someone of exactly the same skill level and uses all of his clubs and a GPS device while the other player does not, he will succeed in winning the tournament.
So now we have multiple outcomes but the relative skill levels haven't changed. This was exactly the point I was making to HiTech earlier, that golf scores do not accurately measure skill if skilled players do not play in ways conducive to "winning." Success? Yes. Skill? No.
Let's face it, many players who look at rank don't think, "Now that guy's a really successful player." They think, "Wow, that guy must be really, really good." And of course, the player may in fact be quite skilled in every aspect of Aces High. Or he might be someone who brought all the clubs and a GPS device while others were downing a beer a hole and putting with drivers for the heck of it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Think of it this way... if Tiger Woods brings all of his clubs and a GPS device, he's going to defeat a lesser-skilled player who does the same. He will succeed. If the no-name player brings all of the clubs and the GPS device but Woods does not, then the no-name player succeeds. If Woods and the no-name player both bring all of their clubs and a GPS device with them, Woods wins.
But Lev... you have been saying this whole time to me that it is the player.... not the club and GPS equipment? Like that, dontcha! Yea, thought you would :D
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Originally posted by Urchin
But Lev... you have been saying this whole time to me that it is the player.... not the club and GPS equipment? Like that, dontcha! Yea, thought you would :D
Go get lost in another analogy, plane boy. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Hehehe.
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I have just made one of my rare checks of the online roster. I remember fighting against one of the guys who is currently ranked in the top 10. And he was a total HO dweeb. I filmed him trying to force the HO in his Hurr-2 against my F6F. Thought he was a dweeb, but seems he's a high ranking dweeb. I don't think I'll bother checking rank any more.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
My point in this thread has been that rank does not necessarily provide an accurate measure for skill, though I recognize that in a game sense it provides an accurate measure of how successfully people engage in activities that, on the whole, increase fighter rank. Think of it this way... if Tiger Woods brings all of his clubs and a GPS device, he's going to defeat a lesser-skilled player who does the same. He will succeed. If the no-name player brings all of the clubs and the GPS device but Woods does not, then the no-name player succeeds. If Woods and the no-name player both bring all of their clubs and a GPS device with them, Woods wins. If Woods plays against someone of exactly the same skill level and uses all of his clubs and a GPS device while the other player does not, he will succeed in winning the tournament.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Dude, if Tiger brought all his clubs and nothing else, and was playing to win, he would always beat the no name. If he was playing aginst another top golfer who was using the advantages of his coice, it would be Tigers to lose. By which I mean he only loses when he makes mistakes. He posesses the skill needed to win, regardless of what the other players are doing.
Which goes to the point I was making. A skilled AH player (meaning the aspects you would look to) can rank to a position matching to their abilities at will just by playing the whole game.
I think the misunderstood part you elude to, is not as great as you might think. If we all showed up at that golf tourney, we would know who the most skilled golfers were before it ever started. There are alot of commers and goers in AH, does it really matter what they think before they are schooled? The core group, the 'regulars' know who the most skilled players are. Anyone who ranks #1 fighter, and #1 overall in a tour has been around long enough to still know what players would either a) still kick their butt or b) be a real challenge to them 1v1. Of course some are cockey, and would have to be shown, but they know. In any event it does not detract from their own acomplishment.
Lower down in the ranks Im sure it does get muddled a bit with so-so players and top notch players that dont give a rats posterior. What I have been trying to point to is that above a certian level it is a competition of skills, and the most skilled players competing will rise to the top.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I think the misunderstood part you elude to, is not as great as you might think. If we all showed up at that golf tourney, we would know who the most skilled golfers were before it ever started. There are alot of commers and goers in AH, does it really matter what they think before they are schooled? The core group, the 'regulars' know who the most skilled players are. Anyone who ranks #1 fighter, and #1 overall in a tour has been around long enough to still know what players would either a) still kick their butt or b) be a real challenge to them 1v1. Of course some are cockey, and would have to be shown, but they know. In any event it does not detract from their own acomplishment.
[/B]
This really is what I've been trying to say all along. Ultimately, players create short lists in their heads of players whom they feel deserve their respect or fear or whatever. Often this sort of personal ranking may not coincide with fighter rankings because it qualitatively measures relative skill rather than quantitatively measuring success. Hence, fighter rank does not necessarily provide the best guage of skill where, say, experience and context might provide that instead.
Lower down in the ranks Im sure it does get muddled a bit with so-so players and top notch players that dont give a rats posterior. What I have been trying to point to is that above a certian level it is a competition of skills, and the most skilled players competing will rise to the top.
I'm not so sure that I agree that above a certain level it's all about skill, not unless everyone brings the same cards to the table. There are, shall we say, some methods for increasing success that require less skill than others. I would, for example, consider a high ranking player who employs conservative flying and BnZ 75% of the time as more skilled than someone who spends 75% of the time in fighters scoring vulching missions as fighter sorties. Both are perfectly acceptable techniques for maximizing fighter rank, but one requires relatively more skill and patience. If two players pursue rank in identical ways, then skill becomes the determining factor rather than strategy.
It's all good. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by beet1e
I have just made one of my rare checks of the online roster. I remember fighting against one of the guys who is currently ranked in the top 10. And he was a total HO dweeb. I filmed him trying to force the HO in his Hurr-2 against my F6F. Thought he was a dweeb, but seems he's a high ranking dweeb. I don't think I'll bother checking rank any more.
It is what? Week 1 of the tour? Paraphrasing a NASCAR related quote...Nobody ever remembers who led lap 1, or at the half-way point. Everybody remembers who led the lap when the checkered flag waved.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This really is what I've been trying to say all along. Ultimately, players create short lists in their heads of players whom they feel deserve their respect or fear or whatever. Often this sort of personal ranking may not coincide with fighter rankings because it qualitatively measures relative skill rather than quantitatively measuring success. Hence, fighter rank does not necessarily provide the best guage of skill where, say, experience and context might provide that instead.
Then WTF we arguing about? LOL
I'm not so sure that I agree that above a certain level it's all about skill, not unless everyone brings the same cards to the table. There are, shall we say, some methods for increasing success that require less skill than others. I would, for example, consider a high ranking player who employs conservative flying and BnZ 75% of the time as more skilled than someone who spends 75% of the time in fighters scoring vulching missions as fighter sorties. Both are perfectly acceptable techniques for maximizing fighter rank, but one requires relatively more skill and patience. If two players pursue rank in identical ways, then skill becomes the determining factor rather than strategy.
It's all good. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
If you think it is easy to find vulching, I may just have to follow you around so I can be there too :)
How many times have you seen this?
Too many friendlies, no uppers.
Too many friendlies, 1 upper, 20 friendlies to race against.
Ineffective friendlies (they all eventually died) too many uppers.
Ineffective friendlies, leave ack and vh up, get low and slow turnfighting next to the airfield.
Efective enemy, leave 2 bait guys while 20 are otw from the next field.
;)
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Originally posted by Murdr
If you think it is easy to find vulching, I may just have to follow you around so I can be there too :)
:D It's really easy to find vulches from carriers. Just wait until everyone in the area achieves local air superiority (and maybe even help out while flying in attack mode). Then grab an F4U-1C in fighter mode and let the fun begin. The worst that can usually happen in this situation is nothing... nobody comes up. At best you're looking at a substantial number of kills in a very short period of time with a high hit percentage.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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LMAO, I just do that for fun. You mean you get paid too? Ahh the wonderful thing AH is :) (The worst that can happen is CV gets sunk and one of the previously stated situations develop) At the very least you need good stratigic SA for that i suppose. Sounds like a player deciding whether he can make the tough shot to set for the eagle, or just lay up and settle for a birdie. Eagle will still win the hole ;)
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Ultimately, players create short lists in their heads of players whom they feel deserve their respect or fear or whatever.
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
Levi...you say fear...that reminds me of a story.
:rolleyes: It goes back to AW days, so ya all lurkers can just scroll on by :rolleyes:
I was in BigPac one night and there was a mass boot. All but 6 of us were booted. There was no marker within 5 sectors, so I landed my pj on the carrier, and upped it at the fightertown atol. After grabbing for a minute a dot comes into vis about 3k higher (great :( )
unnamedplayer: who is the cz pj that just upped at FT?
Murdr: )
Dot moves into vis. High spit. :(
unnamedplayer: oh no...
3k alt advantage with a spit over a pj! He turned and ran! I chased him down and killed him, but I couldnt believe it. Fear? I had no idea. LOL too funny. Being an average dweeb here is also fun though ;)
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Originally posted by Murdr
LMAO, I just do that for fun. You mean you get paid too? Ahh the wonderful thing AH is :) (The worst that can happen is CV gets sunk and one of the previously stated situations develop) At the very least you need good stratigic SA for that i suppose. Sounds like a player deciding whether he can make the tough shot to set for the eagle, or just lay up and settle for a birdie. Eagle will still win the hole ;)
[/b]
hehe Well, in a situation where your side enjoys local air superiority, the probability that someone would sink the carrier is pretty low to non-existent. Let the vulch commence!
Levi...you say fear...that reminds me of a story.
It's intriguing, but fear is definitely one of the emotions that people feel in this game. NathBDP was the master of creating fear and anger, all of which were really just his way of making opponents fly against him at less than their potentials. I've seen perfectly excellent pilots do really stupid things when blinded by anger or self-doubt in this silly little online game.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
hehe Well, in a situation where your side enjoys local air superiority, the probability that someone would sink the carrier is pretty low to non-existent. Let the vulch commence!
He says as the 20k lancs are flying over the CV, and everyone dumbly looks at each other while someone is voxing "We need ord for that SB. Who has ord?"
Psycology is one of the funnest parts of the game. Its required for roping. Even little things like 'I know you are going to be out of range in a second, so I am gonna spite ping you to make you panic and evade some of that E off to reel ya in'. It is intriguing...wait...dam...I agree with you again :rolleyes: well there goes the thread...we were almost to 200 too :(
g'nite :)
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Originally posted by Urchin
Dude, I have NEVER heard of that show... EVER. Hell, I thought shane was talking about South Park.. which I don't watch but I have least heard of. When was this other show on TV? I figured I was at least as old as Shane....
My guess (without doing a google) would be around 1973-1977. Bell bottoms and all. Somewhere in that range, I was pretty young then.
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I was in kindergarten when it first started, so that would have to be around '75 and I think ended in '80 or maybe the year before. As a kid I thought that was the funniest shows and then a few months ago watched a rerun of it and thought, this is one stupid show.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Murdr
He says as the 20k lancs are flying over the CV, and everyone dumbly looks at each other while someone is voxing "We need ord for that SB. Who has ord?"
[/B]
But that would indicate a lack of local air superiority. :)
Psycology is one of the funnest parts of the game. Its required for roping. Even little things like 'I know you are going to be out of range in a second, so I am gonna spite ping you to make you panic and evade some of that E off to reel ya in'. It is intriguing...wait...dam...I agree with you again :rolleyes: well there goes the thread...we were almost to 200 too :(
[/b]
We're not so different, you and I.
Now if only we could get HiTech onboard.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I was in kindergarten when it first started,
Dang, I thought he was going follow that sentence with something like... he used to crawl up real high on the jungle gym and jump on some unsuspecting kindergartener. Or when there was a playground fight he would kidney punch the one that had their back turned.
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You guys are old.
This doesn't prevent you from using technology however. Here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072582/) is the IMDB link to "Welcome Back, Kotter." It ran from 1975 to 1979.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
But that would indicate a lack of local air superiority. :)
[/B]
Believe me, I cant count the number of times Ive watched the CV hunting bomber packs make an unfettered drop, while all the 20 friendlies could do is look up and watch it happen.
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200!
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Originally posted by Murdr
Believe me, I cant count the number of times Ive watched the CV hunting bomber packs make an unfettered drop, while all the 20 friendlies could do is look up and watch it happen.
Ah, the illusion of local air superiority. Lamers!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Had to do some reading to catch up still havnt caught up.. Seems like a very educated thread tho. :D
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The best part is toward the end where there is a suptle jab at akaks flying habits.
(sorry, hope that wasnt a spoiler if you hadnt finished the novel yet):)
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lol bastard, still reading. But im so far in i can't turn back. Ya dam post hores.
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final read this dam novel. hehe only part that made me laugh was your post murdr
Dang, I thought he was going follow that sentence with something like... he used to crawl up real high on the jungle gym and jump on some unsuspecting kindergartener. Or when there was a playground fight he would kidney punch the one that had their back turned.
[/B]
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Originally posted by Murdr
It is what? Week 1 of the tour? Paraphrasing a NASCAR related quote...Nobody ever remembers who led lap 1, or at the half-way point. Everybody remembers who led the lap when the checkered flag waved.
Point taken, but I just checked his stats for the last complete tour (Tour 47) and he finished in the top 100 fighter ranks, and finished in the top 50 overall.
I've been focussing on the CT lately - only have 12 minutes logged in the MA this tour. I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes. The process was tedious, with each player's score having to be checked individually. So after a few random checks, I started to look at every tenth player, ie. rankings #10, #20, #30 etc. all the way up to #100. (I was #103 at that time) Couldn't find a single one.
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try me
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Just checked all top 10 fighter pilots' scores at the end of tour 47, looking for one who never ever flew the Big Three. There isn't a single one. But not only that, about half of those surveyed got most of their kills in a Big Three plane.
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think most of mine were in P38 then again didnt play as much as I used to last tour. Ohh well.
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Xtrm - you flew both P51B and P51D in tour 47.
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Not sure how you would score a golf game where some were useing all the latest and greatest equipment and otheres had to use hockey sticks or baseball bats and tennis balls.
score and rank don't mean anything except ones comprehension of all the nuances of the game and the willingness to game those nuances..
stats on the other hand.... are very excellent indicators for the person making them. HTC has the best stats going.. trouble comes from trying to make a score out of em when everyone is doing so many completely different things.
lazs
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I saw Steve last night in the MA and he explained it to me, I guess I was showing my age... LOL Sorry I got my pannies in WAD.. (S)
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How to get a high rank?
You need being skilled. How much?? I dunno But you need it.
How do you know skill level of opponent? The amount of work you need to work to kill him. Any unskilled pilot can kill you anytime. But you need to work very hard to kill a skilled pilot.
The questions for me are:
1. Are high ranking pilots hard to being killed? Kappa and Taki yes...rest are rooks.
2. Are the hardest pilots at top 10? Negative. Dweeb Furball ;) and Greebo are a joy to fight against. It is very hard to kill them...sometimes even impossible.
Also you can see lot of "Nice kill (S)" in channel 1 to pilots who they arent ranking
Salute
KOSK
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Why is Load your screen handle?
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Originally posted by T1loady
Why is Load your screen handle?
why shouldent it be
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Originally posted by T1loady
I saw Steve last night in the MA and he explained it to me, I guess I was showing my age... LOL Sorry I got my pannies in WAD.. (S)
LOL .. thanks Steve !!!
<> sir !!!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Point taken, but I just checked his stats for the last complete tour (Tour 47) and he finished in the top 100 fighter ranks, and finished in the top 50 overall.
I've been focussing on the CT lately - only have 12 minutes logged in the MA this tour. I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes. The process was tedious, with each player's score having to be checked individually. So after a few random checks, I started to look at every tenth player, ie. rankings #10, #20, #30 etc. all the way up to #100. (I was #103 at that time) Couldn't find a single one.
So what's your point ?
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Originally posted by vorticon
why shouldent it be
You really need to concentrate on your school work more ... especially spelling !!!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
So what's your point ?
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
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beetle top 100?
I can do it, and if I can, a lot of others could.
In the top 100 score you find intentional and unintentional scorers, and I know if you put to work the "real" (which is never defined btw) top 100, you'll see they do it in the crap planes easily. But that's work, you really have to try hard, very quickly as you go down the ezmode scale, and sometimes flying the better planes makes it easier to wade thru the furballs with nearly the same result, not to mention if they simply prefer by taste the planes that happen to be better.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
You really need to concentrate on your school work more ... especially spelling !!!
what schoolwork...im only in physics shop foods and wind this semester...
:eek: uh oh...just remembered i had some physics homework
thanks for reminding me:)
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Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
Umm, I'll call BS on that one. I've done it myself repeatedly. Hell, expand it to the top 10 Easymode planes and I've still done it.
edit: as in tours 37-46. I'm sure a lot of other pilots that specialize in a specific set of planes, be they luftwobbles, VVS, Japanese, or naval planes do the same thing.
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The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
Ya know Beet, this is a hypocritical and BS thing for you to say. I've seen your stats in past tours in the 51, and frankly, they weren' nearly impressive enough for you to be calling the 51 an easy mode plane, it sure doesn't look like you had an easy time. You call it easy mode... tell ya what, fly a pony for a tour, match my stats..just get close, then come back to this board and spout your insults. You've never walked in my shoes, stop pretending you know what you are talking about.
I bet if I ever bothered to care about rank and tried, I could place in the top 10 or so in a "non- easymode" plane. You're full o' crap on this one Beet, and most certainly not speaking from a position of experience.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
All from a guy who laments about the EasyMode™ plane subset, yet he had 49 kills in th CHOG last tour ... :rolleyes:
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Tarmac. I had a look at your stats, and you are the first person I've seen to finish in the top 100 without flying P51/LA7/Spit ix. Although you did fly from that subset in tours 37-40.
Hehe Steve. :D Try not to get too upset. You're no longer talking in the O'Club. Cat got your tongue in there - quite literally in your case. :lol I'd hate to see you gone from here too.
I'm not sure why you're getting upset. This thread is about "how to get rank", and all I have done is to add a few of my own observations. And one of those observations is that with very few exceptions, those in the top 100 make substantial use of the P51/LA7/Spit ix subset. I guess you're upset because of the suggestion that the P51 was "easy". Hehe, I once penned an email to my CO in WB after we'd spent a squad nite in the P51D(weeb), and asked if we could fly something else instead. I got 27 kills in an evening session, and never even got pinged once. I told the CO that I wanted more of a challenge, so he put me in a F4U (can't remember the variant).
OK, so you've looked at my past tours in P51. You must have had to go back a very long way. I only flew the P51 temporarily, at a time when I was new to the game - hence the scores may not have been that good. I remarked upon this foray into Ponydom in this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45225) thread. But there came a time when I felt I was seal clubbing. Got up to Victory 12 in the old system and thought "OK, done the pony in here - time to try something else"...
You imply you don't care about rank, but here you are reading and spouting in a thread all about rank. I'll give you time to calm down, and then we can resume our customary spirit of cordiality on Voxx. :)
Slapshot - yeah, and I pay for those chogs. 49 kills you say? If it's the tour I think it was, 10 of those kills came in a single sortie - 3 buff formations plus a fighter. I've always liked carrier ops, and the Corsairs and Hellcats.
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You're so full of crap Beetle....I can't believe you take youself that seriously:)
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Slapshot - yeah, and I pay for those chogs. 49 kills you say? If it's the tour I think it was, 10 of those kills came in a single sortie - 3 buff formations plus a fighter. I've always liked carrier ops, and the Corsairs and Hellcats.
It was LAST tour. It doesn't matter what tour it was and what you killed and how many you killed with it ... that plane is no different than a P51 in my book.
Which name would you prefer ... Pot or Kettle ?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Tarmac. I had a look at your stats, and you are the first person I've seen to finish in the top 100 without flying P51/LA7/Spit ix. Although you did fly from that subset in tours 37-40.
12 pony and 13 spit9 kills over 4 tours is hardly what I'd call statistically significant. But I'll play along, since I've got other tours that I didn't touch those planes in.
Anyhow, it can be done. And it's fairly common, I'd bet. I'm sure most of my squaddies (moot/muut, lazerus, and jinx in particular) have done it in mostly 190s, 109s, and 205s as well. There are many other good pilots out there that probably do it without really trying as well.
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Ooooh! :eek: I'm being TAS gangbanged. :D
But it's TRUE! Just look for yourself. Pick any pilot in the top 10 last tour, and they all flew the Big Three. There's no flaw in that statement.
Tarmac said "There are many other good pilots out there that probably do it without really trying as well." I wish there were a way to download the information more easily - I've even checked with MiniD to see if there is a way to do it but there isn't. So to derive the data, the stats of each player has to be checked individually. And I haven't found any (except Tarmac) who are exceptions to the rule that I spoke of in the above posts.
Slapshot: I believe the P51 is faster, climbs faster, and turns better than the F4U1C/1D. And the elevator response is perhaps not as good above 400mph. But the F4U does roll well. I like that.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Ooooh! :eek: I'm being TAS gangbanged. :D
But it's TRUE! Just look for yourself. Pick any pilot in the top 10 last tour, and they all flew the Big Three. There's no flaw in that statement.
Tarmac said "There are many other good pilots out there that probably do it without really trying as well." I wish there were a way to download the information more easily - I've even checked with MiniD to see if there is a way to do it but there isn't. So to derive the data, the stats of each player has to be checked individually. And I haven't found any (except Tarmac) who are exceptions to the rule that I spoke of in the above posts.
Slapshot: I believe the P51 is faster, climbs faster, and turns better than the F4U1C/1D. And the elevator response is perhaps not as good above 400mph. But the F4U does roll well. I like that.
[size=8]SO WHAT !!![/size]
Geesh !!! Get off your EasyMode™ soapbox ... get a pair of nads ... and fart in the direction of the EasyMode™ planes.
Yeah ... me and Rude ... quite the gangbang ... wimp !!! ;)
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Whaddya mean, "so what"? Read the thread title again. It's about how to get a high rank. Rod367 has made some good points, and I am exercising my right to make some observations of my own. That is all. Do you have a problem with that?
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You berate lazs about his constant "closer fields" mantra, yet you must pollute just about every thread with your "EasyMode™ plane" mantra ... its not an observation ... its a whine. You want to discredit some becuase of an occasional sortie in certain planes ... bollocks.
Bottom line beet1e ... Every time you die, its because you screwed up ... simple as that ... nothing more ... nothing less.
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I'm sorry Beetle....I didn't understand that this thread was about scoring.
Slapshot....as your CO, I order you to stand down and cease any further hostilities directed towards Beetle.
there...how's that Beet?
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Finishing in top 100 without flying the big 3 isn't that hard. Check the camps I've finished in top 100, not one mission in any of those planes or the niki for that matter. People overrate the impact of the planes versus the person flying them. I'll wager Stang or someone of his calibre could finish in the top 100 in just about any fighter.
Zazen
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Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
Ah, you appear to be saying that the stats support your assertion. However you fail to mention the number of those 100 players that flew the big 4 so little, it could not impact their score enough to remove them from the top 100. So under closer examintation you are putting a false weight of statistics behind your claim. You are not a political spokesperson are you?
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Originally posted by Murdr
Ah, you appear to be saying that the stats support your assertion. However you fail to mention the number of those 100 players that flew the big 4 so little, it could not impact their score enough to remove them from the top 100. So under closer examintation you are putting a false weight of statistics behind your claim. You are not a political spokesperson are you?
I said what I said, and I was very careful in what I said. Read what I said, then try to understand what I said. You'll see that I was right - in what I said.
All this angst seems to stem from the fact that I used the term "EasyMode™". And why shouldn't I?
And by the way, Murdr, I see from your stats that you are an LA7 dweeb.
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Originally posted by beet1e
And by the way, Murdr, I see from your stats that you are an LA7 dweeb.
i see from yours you're just a plain old dweeb.
:aok
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Hehe Steve. Try not to get too upset. You're no longer talking in the O'Club
I'm not upset Beet, I'm just 100% convinced you don't know what you're talking about. You've never done anything at any time in this game for any length of time to indicate that you are an authority on the P51 as an "easymode" plane. Therefore you have no business commenting on it as such, you simply don't know.
Cat got your tongue in there - quite literally in your case.
Hee hee hee... good one. :lol
I got 27 kills in an evening session, and never even got pinged once.
One night's flying does not an expert make you.
But there came a time when I felt I was seal clubbing.
When? Since you love to argue numbers, let's. you never did better than 4/1 K/D in a pony.. I dunno about you, but I hardly call that seal clubbing. Also, during much of this time, you averaged less than 1 kill per sortie. Cmon, do you really think you are an authority on the pony?
You imply you don't care about rank, but here you are reading and spouting in a thread all about rank.
I read most of the threads in here, and enjoy discussing lots of things. I rarely rank very high in the game, so if I do care, I suck :)
I'll give you time to calm down, and then we can resume our customary spirit of cordiality on Voxx.
Beet, I don't mean my tone to be less than cordial, I simply strongly disagree with you here.
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umm, Beet, check my stats and please show me where i was in a ezmode spit9/la7/p51...etc, as you put it, last camp. so it is possible to get top 100 fiter, and for that matter top 20, not really trying, just having fun. :p :)
Edit: ok. i had 8 la7 kills and 5 spit9 kills out of 1065 total kills. without them i woulda been ranked 101 fiter. :o
And i in no way, shape or form think that rank really means everything. :aok
~S~
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Yet another thread gone all beetle bailey :aok
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Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
Ok Beetle, I’ll bite.
I pretty much left the MA for the CT when it came into being, about MA Tour 23.
Here are the fighter/attack planes that I flew in Tour 21 to get a fighter rank of 11 and overall rank of 2:
Plane > # of kills in
109F-4 > 254
Typhoon / 87
109G-2 > 49
F4U-1C > 47
A6M5b > 34
Il-2 > 28
Mosquito > 14
C.205 > 12
Fw 190D-9 > 11
F6F-5 > 8
109G-10 > 5
SeaFire > 5
P-51D > 3
P-38L > 3
F4U-1D > 2
P-47-D25 > 2
Spitfire V > 2
P-47-D30 >1
109G-6 > 1
I guess those three P-51D kills at the expense of three deaths really boosted my rank.
eskimo
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Eskimo Just wanted to mention that avatar is awsome.
we now return you to your regularly schedualed poopfest.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I said what I said, and I was very careful in what I said. Read what I said, then try to understand what I said. You'll see that I was right - in what I said.
Kind of like when they say George Herbert Hoover Bush. He has presided over the loss of over 4 million jobs. The Bush economy has produced the most unemployment since the great depression.
Also very carfully said. Omiting the parts about 3.6 million of them went to new jobs, another portion became self employed, and the unemployment rate being within a couple tenths of a percent of what Clinton declared as "full employment", "Everybody in America that wants a job, has a job"
All this angst seems to stem from the fact that I used the term "EasyMode™". And why shouldn't I?
You read the board as well as you read stats then. You can scream EASYMODE all you want and you will be ignored. However if you make an erronious statement...
And by the way, Murdr, I see from your stats that you are an LA7 dweeb.
See above. :)
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Which tours are we talking about here Beetle? I'm typically in the top 100 for fighter rank... I'd be shocked if I couldn't find a tour where I flew none of the "Big 4" and still finished in the top 25 for fighters. Might have to go back a ways though, now I honestly don't care much.. I'm flying whatever makes my life easiest.
Actually, just got done checking. I've been playing this game for almost 3 years, and there hasn't been a month I didn't fly one of the "Big 4" for at least one sortie. So looks like your right, in my example anyway.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
Ahhh....more beet1e facts without substance...
Don't think any of these tours I flew the P-51, La7 or N1K2.
Tour 38: #31
Tour 39: #82
Tour 42: #35
Tour 44: #43
ack-ack
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ROFL! The highlight of my morning is reviewing the effects of my BBS time bombs. ;) OK, a few things here...
Killnu, I see you answered your own question. At some time, you resorted to Spit ix and LA7, so you're disqualified from the contest. :p
Murdr said "You read the board as well as you read stats then. You can scream EASYMODE all you want and you will be ignored." ROFL! This thread had been read its last rites, until I came along and put back the sparkle. ;) Since last night, I have elicited replies from 8 guys. I don't call that being ignored. And you are an LA7 dweeb. You got 12 kills in your Lala, but you died in it 6 times. Even I normally do better than that against the LA7 - largely because there are so many of them being flown by idiots. In your case, no further comment required. ;):lol
Eskimo! Glad to see you racking them up in the 109F4. Tour 21 goes back a long way, before I started, and at a time when there were many fewer players than today, making it easier to get into the top 100. But I'm afraid that for the purposes of what I'm saying about the 100 highest ranking fighter pilots never getting there without flying the easymode subset, you too are disqualified. True enough, you got no kills in those planes, but your record is tarnished by the fact that you did fly the P51D, and died in it three times. Good effort, though.
Ack-Ack: "Ahhh....more beet1e facts without substance..." I refuse to believe that you're as stupid as you pretend to be on this board. I began to check your stats, and in tour 38 I note that you did not fly the easymode subset, but your fighter rank was 159 at the end of that tour, not 31. #31 was your overall rank. That's not what's being discussed here. I'm not interested to know how you manipulated the scoreboard using bombers, attack mode, vehicles and boats. We're talking about fighter planes and fighter rankings. You're a dolt!
Urchin: I thought your game ID was Urchin, but couldn't find your stats. So I can't comment. You said "I'm flying whatever makes my life easiest." Yep, you and about 3000 others. :rolleyes:
And Steve! :D I agree that one night does not make an expert. My P51 history goes something like this. In WB, before the RPS, I needed to fly easy planes. So I started out with the Spit ix and P51. I found the P51 very easy because of the long range laser gunnery it had at that time, and its awesome performance - those 10,000' zooms. And I spent a morning clubbing zekes down below. They couldn't touch me. And then (places hand on heart) I thought this is no good. It's great for score but no challenge. And I looked for a different plane. I got on well with the F6F and finished one tour at #8. That night of the 27 kills was when my CO mandated that we should all fly the P51 for a squad op. I never flew the P51 again until a brief period in AH when I was still learning the game, and how to cope with much less teamwork and the cries of "it's my $14.95" etc. See that thread that I linked. So then I started to do OK again. You say I never got a k/d better than 4/1 - does that mean I got 3/1? Never knew I was even that good in AH. Once I got the hang of the game, and had learned not to fly with those who do not communicate, I was able to switch to other planes and dump the P51. Haven't flown it since for the reasons given. BTW it's not fair to compare your own k/h or k/s with mine. I can't fly in US primetime, so the arena is much less target rich when I'm on. But for you, I'll just say this. EasyMode™!
Yes, I said what I said, and I was careful in what I said. And what I said was that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks without recourse to the P51/LA7/Spit ix subset. The only exception I've seen so far is Tarmac, and achieved it somewhat impressively in tour 45. Tarmac. :aok :) Hey, even I can't be right 100% of the time! ;)
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to beet1e for taking time from his very busy scheduel to get up this early review, and reply to what has been said. He effectivly has prooven us all wrong, and not by insults but by actually doing some research. Refreshing thing when dweeb, cherry picker ect. litters chan 1 when they have no idea what in the sam hell they are blabbing about. Great Job Beet1e ur OK in my book:aok as for the rest of you bright guys with a very low vocabulary, shame on you, you know who u are.
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so... what your telling me is that if i didnt fly a spit9 or la7 (total of 15 kills), that i wouldnt of finished in the top 20?
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Tour Rank
43 #2
44 #5
45 #9
46 #6
47 #5
Kills 2755
Kills in big 4: 39
LOL Beetle :aok
Note: I have all my respect for Big4 pilots. Salute
KOSK
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Wow this is great! Can someone look up my score and stats for me so I can drink coffe get my scores and read the bb at the same time. Stats are a joke. They are as bad as the rank system for measuring pilots stick skill. No where do they indicate deaths due to saving some teamates ass...goon hunting....going for that last troop as he's entering maproom..or straffing a turret of a flak while c47 has town in sight. No to mention Sunday night rook gangbang. Tactical pilots rarely put themselves in a situation where they might get shot down....lose advantage and runaway is the theme there, and nothing wrong with that stlye its smart flying, as for the big 3 easymode planes..when i go into a fight outnumbered and with alt disadvantage..I want the best performance I can get. No time to grab 25k.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
Wow this is great! Can someone look up my score and stats for me so I can drink coffe get my scores and read the bb at the same time. Stats are a joke. They are as bad as the rank system for measuring pilots stick skill. No where do they indicate deaths due to saving some teamates ass...goon hunting....going for that last troop as he's entering maproom..or straffing a turret of a flak while c47 has town in sight. No to mention Sunday night rook gangbang. Tactical pilots rarely put themselves in a situation where they might get shot down....lose advantage and runaway is the theme there, and nothing wrong with that stlye its smart flying, as for the big 3 easymode planes..when i go into a fight outnumbered and with alt disadvantage..I want the best performance I can get. No time to grab 25k.
You are exactly right.
Until, or I better say if, the score numbers are weighted as is done with perks they are indeed just numbers.
I posted this before in another thread, but it applys here too:
Originally posted by Zanth
To stop the hoardes - and by this I assume you mean gangbanging - would be pretty easy. Apply the same balancing priniciples to scoring as is applied to perks. This would have much broader and far reaching impact on side balancing.
- a stuka killing a 163 would generate more points score than the 163 killing the stuka
- A P51 on the outnumbered side would generate more points for killing a P51 on the number advantaged side.
Do something like this and you will have a very strong incentive for players not to gang up and even gladly go to the outnumbered side. It is also the "Carrot not stick" approach HTC likes. This would harm no one, doesn't fool with anyone's flying style plane choice or the price of beer.
(Heck, score might even take on meaning when it reflects the difficulty of the task - i.e. the early war pilot fighting tougher odds *should* have more points) [/B]
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Originally posted by Rude
I'm sorry Beetle....I didn't understand that this thread was about scoring.
Slapshot....as your CO, I order you to stand down and cease any further hostilities directed towards Beetle.
there...how's that Beet?
Sheesh.. catching up on my reading, and I see you blew Slappy right out of here!! I was just about to ask Beetlle how the gangbang feels but i'm gonna stay quiet.
I'm leaving now...
:rofl
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Originally posted by Icer
Sheesh.. catching up on my reading, and I see you blew Slappy right out of here!! I was just about to ask Beetlle how the gangbang feels but i'm gonna stay quiet.
I'm leaving now...
:rofl
Well Icer....poor Beetle needs compassion....the last thing the mentally challenged need is harsh criticism.
I knew you guys would understand.
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Originally posted by VAQ
Yet the top ranked players in the game always espouse the "rank has no meaning" POV, and see themselves more akin to the feline caste system, which is more like a wheel with a high-ranking individual at the hub and the others arranged around the rim, all reluctantly acknowledging the superiority of the despot but not necessarily measuring themselves against one another.[/u]
Yeah, right...
A quote from a post on page 2 of this thread. Underline added.
Two ways to look at this:
1) I was being sarcastic. I actually believe that players regularly measure themselves against one another.
2) I was wrong. Players regularly measure themselves against one another.
No offense guys, but after reading the last couple of pages of this thread I am ok with either choice.
Y'all have a good day :)
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You guys can't leave the thread! This one is worth looking up.. ton's o' fun!!!(really)
Beet1e quote
You say I never got a k/d better than 4/1 - does that mean I got 3/1?
Ya dude, in a p51 you had 3/1 a few times and I think 4/1 twice (don't feel like looking again). Quite respectable imho, but not clubbing seals. FWIW, I think a ratio of say.... 50/1 w/ a respectable K/H would be clubbing baby seals. The K/D is easy to attain but one would have to resort to very cautious flying to get there, thus bottoming out in K/H.
Beet, as I said, and from my own reference point, you have no right to put the 51 as an easy mode plane until you've put up some stellar numbers in it. I'm not trying to be offensive here but, imho, your numbers have not been stellar in the pony.
Beet, let's wing 51's some time. I can't promise we'll rack up a ton o' kills and we probably won't live, but I can promise that we'll find a fight and have some fun.
XJ, Beet1e called AKAK a dolt. Unless you have a particularly negative opinion about AKAK (I don't) that is pretty much an insult. So knock him off the saint list, k?
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Thanks for the replies, guys. I've been busy all day installing a security light on the outside of my house, plus an internal light in the utility cupboard. I say "all day". It was between my last posting and 4pm - the time which marks the end of usable daylight in Limeyland right now.
Now what have we here... Load/Kosk! Very impressive stats; you seem to know what you're doing with the 190D9. But alas, your record is tarnished for having flown all of the P51/LA7/Spit ix in recent TODs. Why bother? You could so easily become only the second pilot we've discovered so far to make the top 100 (or even the top 10) without your stats being sullied by the Big Three.
Jaxxo, like Zanth, I agree with you entirely. Flying for the scoreboard makes for boredom. I recently saw a friend get 17 kills in a 190D9. As he admitted to me moments later on private channel, 10 of those were vulches. You simply cannot judge expertise by a scoreline in isolation. I don't like vulchfests, and I don't want to have to rely on a long green bardar to get kills. In the past, I would have said that I was motivated by field defence - maybe dying a few times if it meant saving a field, or a CV. But these days, the attacks are mounted with such massive numbers that it can be pointless trying.
Rude said "Well Icer....poor Beetle needs compassion....the last thing the mentally challenged need is harsh criticism."
I think that was a little uncalled for. This whole Big Three debate got started when I said "I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes."
What is the problem with that? I can only think that you can't bear to see your beloved P51 dubbed as an EasyMode™ plane. Well tough cheddar if it's one of the only planes you can get kills in. I repeat, I flew it myself early on while I learned how the gaming pattern of AH differed from WB. It gave me much better survivability, but in my book it's down as one of the easier rides. Why else do you think so many people fly it? Looking for a challenge? :lol
You just can't stand it when I'm right about something. You and your ilk were always boo-hoo-hooing about the pizza map, and how "no fights" were to be found on it. I referred my stats which showed that even I could find action during the Euro Quiet Time. So then there was an insinuation about vulching - not by you personally, but by a squaddy. So then I posted films to demonstrate that actually there was plenty of action on Pizza without resorting to vulching. And guess what? You tried to redefine what constitutes a fight. :rolleyes:
Now we're having a rank thread, and I have made my observation about the top 100 pilots who, with very, very few exceptions, make use (sometimes substantial use) of the Big Three. And I am right about that, and you can't stand the fact that so many of your kills are scored in EasyMode™. But most of all, you can't stand the fact that I am right. This has been going on a couple of days now, and the ONLY pilot we have identified to have finished in the top 100 and not flown the Big Three was Tarmac in tour 45.
The fact that you are now resorting to thinly veiled insults tells me that you know I'm right and you can't prove me wrong, and that you've run out of gas on the subject. I can see how that would stick in the craw. ;):D:lol
Steve - allrighty then, we can wing up. But can we choose a different plane? Also, I note that once again you make reference to k/h as if it were an absolute yardstick. It is not. It is a relative yardstick. As I have said in the past, many times, the Euro daytime attendance is typically between 70-130, whereas US prime time attendance can be between 500-600. Therefore the con density on a small map in Euro time is probably about the same as on the pizza map in US prime time. And we know how you guys whine about that! :lol
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Originally posted by beet1e
ROFL
Murdr said "You read the board as well as you read stats then. You can scream EASYMODE all you want and you will be ignored." ROFL! This thread had been read its last rites, until I came along and put back the sparkle. ;) Since last night, I have elicited replies from 8 guys. I don't call that being ignored. And you are an LA7 dweeb. You got 12 kills in your Lala, but you died in it 6 times. Even I normally do better than that against the LA7 - largely because there are so many of them being flown by idiots. In your case, no further comment required. ;):lol
Thank you for bringing out my point on both counts. You are being replied to because you are flat out wrong, and only wish to acknowlege what supports what you want to say, while ignoring facts that show your assertions are irrelevent. However you appear to be the only one that does not comprehend this. Making statements like you are, regardless of whether you are truely this dense, or just trying to bait, only shows your depth of knowlege never left the toddler pool.
You also appear to wish me to either lash out, or defend aginst your outragous accusations. Fortunatly the other posters here have demonstrated their deep knowlege of the game, so it would be a further waste of my time to explain common knowlege, (something you would not recognize if it fell on you.) As far as lashing out, I see no need for that either. You are doing a find job describing what you are, my putting a name to it is unneeded.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Thank you for bringing out my point on both counts. You are being replied to because you are flat out wrong
Flat out wrong? Not just foot-resting-on-the-accelerator wrong? Let me remind you once again what I said, which was: "I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes." Can you find a flaw in that statement? So far we've identified one pilot who was the exception to this rule, several tours back. Or are you saying that the P51 does not deserve the EasyMode™ tag?
I have been discussing stats and scores, all of which are freely available for inspection on the HTC website. How can I be "wrong" about that? It's all there in black and white.
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Beet ... you can't see the forest thru the trees.
The issue at hand, is with your observation/whine. You (and only you really subscribe to this) have labeled a subset of planes as EasyMode™ and if one were to score at least one kill within this subset, there accompishments and abilities are negated. Bollocks I say.
Some people are calling you on it (Steve in particular) and you are dodging all over the place ... as usual.
Again, I tell you this with all seriousness ... if you or I die to any of these so-called EasyMode™ planes, it is our fault that we died and not the abilities of the EasyMode™ plane that killed us.
Why can't you grasp this concept ? What instances or examples can you provide that would explain that any of your deaths to any of these EasyMode™ planes, wasn't directly attributed to something you did wrong.
Never ever have I been killed by one of these EasyMode™ planes that wasn't directly related to something that I did wrong.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
... if you or I die to any of these so-called EasyMode™ planes, it is our fault that we died and not the abilities of the EasyMode™ plane that killed us.
Nope, when I die I always check and its an EasyMode™ plane/Vehicle/Ack that gets me evey time..
:rofl
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beetle has 1/2 a point, and saying he's got no point at all is as false as his dodging.
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was gonna write something, but what would it really accomplish?
~S~
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That isnt the statment I sited. You went on to state the coorilation between flying the big 3 or 4, as a relevent factor in the top 100, placing enphasis on characterizing it as resorting to those planes to do it. Its relevence to the top 100, is negated by several other statistics. The primary being that they are in fact the most used planes, but have been shown to been used so little by some of those 100 that they were irrelevent to their ranking. If their use was such a small percentage of their total tour statistics, that it could not significantly affect their rank, then it follows they would have been in the top 100 regardless of the most popular planes.
That does not change the fact that they flew one the most popular planes at least once. However it does show that substantal use of those plane is not coorilated with their individual rank placement.
I feel you are in effect saying that you waited in the lobby of the building, and all the people comming through the front door were folding umbrellas. Instead of concluding it is raining outside, you say nobody gets in the building without an umbrella. When in fact the umbrella is inconsequental to the act of walking through the front door.
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Originally posted by killnu
was gonna write something, but what would it really accomplish?
~S~
Entertainment for the rest of us?
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Oh, Geeeezzz... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Look, Slapshot - we have private emailed in the past. I cannot believe you are as idiotic as you're pretending to be right now, especially as what you do for a living is not a million miles distant from what I did.
Now get this through your thick skull. I'm not concerned about how many times I died to these planes. And I'm not concerned about how often I kill them. Though if you look at my career stats (http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=beet1e) you'll see that I kill them more than they kill me. That is not the issue here. I'm NOT dodging all over the place as usual. I made a VERY SIMPLE statement. I will repeat it yet again. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND COMPREHEND. And that statement is: "I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes." Now I think you'll agree, that's a very simple statement. Forget about personal stats, playing styles... I'm not dodging all over the place as usual... I made a very simple statement. And so far we have found only ONE player - Tarmac - who has proved to be the exception to the rule.
Murdr - I see that you too bypassed comprehension lessons. You said "Fortunatly the other posters here have demonstrated their deep knowlege of the game, so it would be a further waste of my time to explain common knowlege, (something you would not recognize if it fell on you.)" WTF has this issue got to do with a "deep knowledge of the game", FFS? We're talking about freaking stats! And anyone who has a basic command of numeracy can read the score sheets. That's ALL we're talking about here. We're not talking about play styles, we're not talking about maps, we're not talking about gunnery. I said what I said, and I'll say it YET AGAIN because some people seem a bit thick and cannot grasp the point: "I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes." Read, understand, assimilate, inwardly digest... but DO NOT come back here spouting about a "deeper understanding of the game". It's a very simple statement, and therefore should be well suited to your own mental faculties.
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never?
i think we might find a sortie or 2 in a spit by you. and you seem to like the big easy-mode CHog. as well as some easy-mode 109's. ;)
according to innominates stats page you're 197-104 in a spit9. 480-159 in a ponyd. 7-13 in a la7. in them, mind you, not versus them.
i think if you started to fly them "big-4" easymoders you'd find it's not as simple to get a high fighter rank as you posit. it's a combination of many variables, not just the hard-coded stats variables. altho' the stats in some ways do reflect these personal variables.
your statement has been shown to be statistically incorrect. the mere fact that one might have flown only *1* sortie in one of these planes shouldn't exclude them. i'd say if their total nbr of kills in these planes is less than 3% it'd be a valid refutation of your claim.
fess up, you're just frustrated no one is recognizing your greatness. :eek:
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beet, when i first read you post on the "easymode" planes, i thought you meant them as your main ride. but since you mean, if you fly them once( ie "resorted" to them) you were right. but your statement doestn really mean squat tho. if you take the 8 kills i had in a spit9/la7 away from the 1000+ i had, i still woulda been in the top 20 fiter. so, it is very possible for a player to not fly the "easymode" planes and score in the top 100 fiter. one does not "need" to resort to one of those to score a top 100 fiter rank. can we agree on that?
~S~
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and risk destroying his argument? are you crazy?!?
:rofl
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Thanks for the insult beet ... <>
"I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes."
Like I said before ...
[size=8]SO WHAT !!![/size]
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Take your meds slapshot:D Your missing the point of argument here.
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Originally posted by XtrmeJ
Take your meds slapshot:D Your missing the point of argument here.
Nah ... sippin' on a good Cabernet right now ... no meds.
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ahh I see. You gonna be in MA tonight slap, or patrolling the boards until you are passed out with the cabernet in your hand? If so give me a hollar. Will prob be rideculing newbs on chan 1 :D
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Good evening, bananas one and all. :D Shane, I am disappointed in you. "and risk destroying his argument? are you crazy?!?" WHAT argument? I made a statement in which I commented upon an observation about various scores/stats. There was no argument. You're an apprentice dolt.
Killnu. You don't need to fly EasyMode™ planes. Like Tarmac and Kosk, you could get into the top 100 easily, without recourse to EasyMode™ planes. Let's see you do it next tour. :)
Slapshot said "Thanks for the insult beet ... <>" To which I say... you're welcome, have a nice day! :lol As for your "so what", I say so what? I made an observation, that's all. Do I have to qualify it? If your wife comments on the bouquet of the Cabernet you're drinking, do you say "so what"? Hmm? Now get back to the MA. You need more practice in that LA7. :rolleyes: BTW, which Cabernet were you drinking? I prefer the Chilean Merlots myself. And maybe a good Syrah (old world Shiraz).
Murdr - I said what I said, and...
... oh Geez, what's the use... :(:rolleyes:
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Shane - how long ago did I fly P51/La7/Spit ix? Bet it wasn't in the last year. The last two years maybe? :aok
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Originally posted by Murdr
I feel you are in effect saying that you waited in the lobby of the building, and all the people comming through the front door were folding umbrellas. Instead of concluding it is raining outside, you say nobody gets in the building without an umbrella. When in fact the umbrella is inconsequental to the act of walking through the front door.
This is what it a "deep knowlege of the game" has to do with it. Interpretation. Why are you looking for and finding umbrellas? Its raining! Why are you looking among 3% of the population for the three most popular planes and finding them? They are the 3 most popular feeking planes Hello?
Nobody gets in the building without an umbrella. I said what I said, prove me wrong.
Dude the umbrella has nothing to do with the building.
Read what I said. The security camera video backs me up.
Umm, dude its raining you will find the same thing across town in the projects.
Now get this through your thick skull. I dont care if I am soaking wet. I dont care how often it rains. Read what I said. "I do not use umbrellas. I searched up and down the street for someone who would get into this building without and umbrella, and I could not find one." Its a very simple statment, it is based in documented fact. What dont you understand about this?
But dude, what does the umbrella have to do with the building?
I SAID WHAT I SAID. READ WHAT I SAID.
Umm, dude. Im gonna go inside now, its kind of nasty out here
See ya later umbrella dweeb!
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Murdr - I don't know what you're talking about. All this umbrella nonsense. Try to stay on topic. And yes, you ARE an LA7 dweeb. :D
I'm retiring for the evening.
Toodle-Pip. :D
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Murdr has lost me. Something about wet dreams and a building, with an umbrella. Did it come true or something.
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go back to your p38 thread. everything will be ok then.
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fbrgrmmbl
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I got here late...
WHASSSUP ??
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Originally posted by beet1e
Murdr - I don't know what you're talking about.
Wow that's a shocker. Almost as shocking as when you combed the stats of 3% of players for the three most used planes in AH, and found them.
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I can see both sides of the argument. Does the plane you fly have an effect on your stats? Certainly. Only a moron would deny that. Is it the *critical* factor in your stats? Well, thats up in the air. Some would say yes, some would say no. I lean more towards the yes position myself.
So yea, Beetle has a point that if you fly the more ... easy... good, whatever planes, you'll have somewhat inflated statistics to show for it.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Good evening, bananas one and all. :D Shane, I am disappointed in you. "and risk destroying his argument? are you crazy?!?" WHAT argument? I made a statement in which I commented upon an observation about various scores/stats. There was no argument. You're an apprentice dolt.
sigh.. why can't the english understand english?
first let me refresh your memory with these little gems found on page 5.
"The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix."
"Just checked all top 10 fighter pilots' scores at the end of tour 47, looking for one who never ever flew the Big Three. There isn't a single one. But not only that, about half of those surveyed got most of their kills in a Big Three plane."
ar·gu·ment n
(2)
a. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
b. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
c. A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.
shall i point out exactly how your argument walked, talked and smelled like an argument? or shall i be generous and give you some credit for being able to see this on your own?
http://www.dictionary.com
:aok
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Originally posted by beet1e
Shane - how long ago did I fly P51/La7/Spit ix? Bet it wasn't in the last year. The last two years maybe? :aok
doesn't matter. you flew them. you're disqualified from making snotty statements about easy-mode planes.
:aok
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This thread is going circles.I hereby LOCK this thread.
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Originally posted by DrDea
This thread is going circles.I hereby LOCK this thread.
you've gone in circles before. you're disqualified from locking them.
:aok
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Originally posted by Shane
doesn't matter. you flew them. you're disqualified from making snotty statements about easy-mode planes.
:aok
name 1 person who didn't at one point...
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see... that's the thing.. there's nothing worse than a commoner who affects an upturned nose and haughty demeanor.
:aok
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Urchin. That is not the heart of the issue. I just did a random sample of tour 47 players ranked between 1000-1600. 30 of 30 had a kill or death in those three planes. Now, does that mean I should run here and post a statement that implies it is a factor in their rank? After all, my research according to beets method would support such a statement. Its all there in black and white.
Then again the arena stats place those 3 among the top 4 most used planes. So I should be able to pick any demographic, and find repeated instances of its use. What would be remarkable, would be a demographic that shows either an unusual concentration by percentage, or unusual lack of those 3. That isnt what beet brought to the table though.
Ignoring scope of a global trend (most used planes/rain), he sites the results of global trend(big3/umbrella), and a small percentage of players (top 100/building) and tries to imply some significance to it.
So I say again in this thread titled 'how to get a high rank' the la7/spit9/p51 have as much to do with walking into the top 100, as an umbrella has to do with walking into a building on a rainy day.
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Originally posted by Shane
you've gone in circles before. you're disqualified from locking them.
:aok
Damn.Busted.:aok
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Why not make a challenge of it. Do one tour without flying the big 3 and see if you can still manage a high rank.
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Originally posted by XtrmeJ
Why not make a challenge of it. Do one tour without flying the big 3 and see if you can still manage a high rank.
i'd rather see beet1e fly only the big-3 and see how *he* does.
:)
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shane. Thanks for the dictionary link. You might need it yourself to check the word "observation". Here you go.
The act or faculty of observing.
The fact of being observed.
The act of noting and recording something, such as a phenomenon, with instruments.
The result or record of such notation: a meteorological observation.
A comment or remark. See Synonyms at comment.
An inference or a judgment that is acquired from or based on observing. [/list] You said "your statement has been shown to be statistically incorrect." No it hasn't. Refer to my observation: I have repeated it half a dozen times and you still don't get it. I'm not saying it again.
Murdr accused me of being "flat out wrong" - No I'm not. I said what I said on the strength of data I located on the HTC stats and scores pages - it's there for all to see, and there can be no argument about it. OK, I was only 99.98% right - Tarmac proved to be a worthy exception to the rule in tour 45, for example.
Murdr, with all those umbrellas you keep talking about, surely you could spare one for the guy in your avatar pic. :lol
Rude implied I'm mentally challenged, and I'm beginning to agree! I just can't make you guys see that what I said was to simply comment on a pattern I had noted, in varying degrees, on the scores and stats pages.
Slapshot said "so what?" So what indeed. So nothing.
And shane, I didn't even say that the easymode™ subset was instrumental in gaining a place in the top 100. But take a look at Steve's scores and stats. He has a very impressive k/d in the P51. Now check his k/d for other planes. There are other guys like that. OK, some guys flew easymode™ on only a handful of occasions, and in some cases they might well have finished a tour in the top 100 without flying the Big Three. But in all but a tiny minority of cases, they did fly the Big Three, and what I said still stands.
LOL. Who would have thought that grown men could get so bent out of shape about some game stats. :lol
I think what really hurts is my use of the EasyMode™ tag. Sowwy! ;):p
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Originally posted by beet1e
And shane, I didn't even say that the easymode™ subset was instrumental in gaining a place in the top 100. There are other guys like that. OK, some guys flew easymode™ on only a handful of occasions, and in some cases they might well have finished a tour in the top 100 without flying the Big Three. But in all but a tiny minority of cases, they did fly the Big Three, and what I said still stands.
sigh....
did you not say this?
"The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix."
however, your original argument was,
"And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes."
you made an argument based on a faulty observation with faulty research. let's average your ftr ranking for the past 7 tours (41-47), dropping the highest and lowest ranking. your averaged ftr rank is.... 194. at no point therein had you ever broken 100 (sorry). i think you need a much broader sampling to support/refute your orignal argument, no?
Q.E.D., you *were* proven wrong in your arguments. both literally and statisically. there are at least 4-5 people in this thread who have shown that. let's use load for example... 2755 kills, 39 being in the big-4. that's less than 1.5% - statistically insignificant to your argument, th eimplication that one must rely on using one of those 3 ftrs to obtain a sub-100, or even sub beet1e ranking. ack-ack does it repeatedly. and he flies 38 as a fighter exclusively.
you attempted to measure yourself and came up short. no surprise there.
steve knows and admits to his weak areas. why don't you take a tip from him in that?
no one's bent out of shape over stats. they're bent out of shape trying to get it through your skull that you don't know what you're talking about. keep dancing like a scarecrow in a strong wind, maybe you'll be blown to OZ and acquire a brain.
you're just envious you're not getting the respect you think you deserve. sorry to deflate your bubble, you're merely mediocre and missing significant clues.
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Geez, shane. Don't you ever sleep?
There was NO argument. At the moment I reviewed the stats, I was ranked at 103, and therefore focussed on the top 100. No agenda - just curiosity. Not trying to prove anything, because there's no need. The FACTS are all there on the HTC website. And the FACT is that with very few exceptions in certain tours, the guys in that top 100 have all flown the Big Three at some point in the tour. however, your original argument was,
...there was NO argument - get it? NO ARGUMENT. you made an argument based on a faulty observation with faulty research.
No I didn't. What I said is true, and still stands. Q.E.D., you *were* proven wrong in your arguments. both literally and statisically.
Wrong on two counts. There was no argument, and what I said was factually correct.
Toodle-Pip.
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"And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? observation I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who argumentdidn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes."
"The point is that argumentno-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix."
i see english is not your first language.
i'll type this real slow....
your arguments have been proven wrong on all counts.
your observation was faulty.
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I think beetle has a valid and obvious point but his hatred of la7's has kinda muted it...
I think that if yu want to be high ranked in fighters AND do it in a way that is representitive... say, couple hundred or more kills... 40 or more hours... You will have to use one of the advantageous planes.
pee51... dee9 gee10.... la7.. spit 9... typhie.. ya gotta be late model fast and have some firepower.
I think decent sticks could do it in la5 and p47 or 51b maybe the radial 190's.. g6 or hog but I think most of the current "rankers" are married to the very best and biggest advantage.
not sure how many could rank #1 in a hellcat or 109f or even nik... they need the speed. they need it to get to and away from the fight quickly and with impunity.
in a game with planes that have such large spans in performance.... rank is meaningless. In a game where not everyone is attempting to do the same thing... rank is meaningless.
It is no coincidence that those who value rank and seek it.... use the biggest advantage offered in ac over everyone else.... the advantage is very large indeed. It is like one guy loading large stones into the back of his truck and another takes a pebble and a slingshot and shoots the peeble 100 yards over the truck and then claims he is more skilled since his rock throwing abilities far exceeded the other guys.
but for now... most of us are pretty certain when we run into a decent stick. Unless he bounces us while we are engaged heavily and then runs away.... his skill is still an unknown at that point.
lazs
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oops.. Another problem is the players who are neither fish nor fowl...
They fly a variety of planes or.. mediocre to pretty advantageous... they fly to live and do it cautiously but are not ranked high.
They haven't gamed the game sufficently to get high rank and.... their caution has kept them anonymous with the acm crowd... they don't mix it up.
the rank crowd doesn't think much of em and... the acm crowd doesn't recognize em.
They are never mentioned as being "good".
I think the stats are great for everyone... yu can set your own goals and watch progress. hell with what everyone else thinks.
lazs
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I view rank kind of like grades. Smarter kids gravitate toward higher grades, but smart kids can be found with all different GPA’s. While it’s far from certain that a kid with a 4.0 GPA is smarter than a kid with a 2.0 GPA, you’re going to find a higher percentage of smart kids at the 4.0 level than at the 2.0 level.
In schools, lots of kids of all levels of intelligence can be found who value grades, or do not value grades. One of the few conclusions that can be made is that really dumb kids have a heck of a time earning good grades (depending on the school). Likewise, kids with average intelligence can earn good grades if they work at it. GPA is no indicator of how seriously a student pursues good grades, and needs to be viewed with a grain of salt.
Grades are not the be-all indicator of intelligence, but they do have value. Likewise, the AH ranking system is not the be-all indicator of skill, but it does have value.
eskimo
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'frod
1 a : DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : IMPOSTOR; also : one who defrauds : CHEAT b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
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Originally posted by lazs2
snip
hell with what everyone else thinks.
lazs
In general, a good philosophy IMO :)
culero
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Interesting language in Beet1e's non-statement:
1. "Anyone who flies the Big3 or its subset". So anyone who flies the La5, 51B, Spit1, Spit5, Seafire is dropped from consideration in beet1e's figures. Good planes...but not world beaters. Especially with Niks and Yaks and perks getting a free pass. Carefully calculated no doubt. Yet even with all these allowances Beet1e's post still fails to achieve absolute truth.
Usually if you torture stats long enough you can get them to tell you anything.
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Oh I see ... now its very few exceptions, when the orginal statement said I couldn't find a single pilot ... waffle waffle waffle.
It was a California Cab. I love California Merlots, but also love the Chilean Merlots. I also like a good Shiraz or Syrah. I tend to stay "West Coast" for wines.
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I've always referred to them as the "Big 4".. Nik/Spit9, P51D/La7.
Of the 4, only the P51 isn't what you could call dominating. The B is in the same boat as the D, except it has less firepower and worse visibility. On the whole, an La7 will absolutely destroy a P51 in A2A. The N1K/Spit9 is about a draw.. the N1K turns better, the Spit9 does most everything else a tiny bit better, firepower is about the same.
But seriously, going back to Beetles "point" or argument, or observation, or whatever. Ok, so the "Big 4" are all pervasive. Not going to argue that, at any given moment I'd say they make up 50% of the planes in the air, and everyone flies them. They also have a tendency to "inflate" ones "ability" in an A2A fight, thus inflating stats. So I still think it is true that most people in the top 100 for fighters rely on their plane to get them there, and would not be there if not for that.
I will say that numbers in a plane does not equal time spent in the plane though. Last tour I had 60-odd kills in a Chog in 3 sorties, and 60 odd kills in a n1k2 in about 6-7 sorties. The rest of the month I spent in 190s mainly. So did those 10 sorties inflate my stats? Certainly, although I can't say by how much.
Just doing some "stat-research" and maybe some interpretation, on my own. Lets look at Kappa, since he finished 1st in fighters last month. Overall K/D of 14.5, K/S of 5, K/H of 13.7, Hit% of 19%. Ok, Hit% is tough to "game".. so he's a good shot. Figure even if you shoot 60% on vulches, you arent vulching all the time, so to hit with nearly 20% is good. K/H of 13, pretty good. That stat is kinda tough to "game" to, imo. You'll get a super high K/H vulching... but nobody vulches all the time.
The K/D and K/S are good, but here is where I'd make Beetles "argument" that they are strictly plane-related. Looks like he flew 3 planes this tour, the P38, the P51D, and the 262. Just going off the "stat" pages (which don't count augers and such as deaths, so they'll be a little higher than what the "score" pages give him).
K/D in the P-38 is stellar.. 13.73. Not many people could get a K/D that high in a P-38.
K/D in the P-51... 29.5. Why do you think his K/D in the P-51 would be higher than in the P-38? Especially since it would appear that the P-38 is his "main" ride... wouldn't it make more sense to assume he's be more "skilled" or "better" in the P-38? That is kinda puzzling.
K/D in the 262.. 34.6. Again, how strange. He had about 1/3rd as many kills in the 262 as in the P-38.. but his K/D is so much higher. I think he is a 262 ace and he's been holding out on us with his reputation for flying the P-38.
I can't look up the K/S value for individual planes, but I'd be willing to bet he got more kills per sortie in the P-51 and the 262 on average than he did in the P-38.
But what do you think would have happened if instead of flying the P-51D and the 262, Kappa had gotten an inexplicable urge to fly the 202 and Spit 1. Do you think he would have finished #1 in fighters? I think the answer is pretty clearly not, but feel free to tell me why you think I'm wrong.
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they need the speed. they need it to get to and away from the fight quickly and with impunity.
Lazs, I know ya don't fly any late war stuff so I'll comment on the above. There are SO many la7's, ponies, D9's, and tyhies in the arena that there is no such thing as leaving the fight w/ impunity, sans the 262. It is definitely more probable that one could disengage w/ a pony or d9 than say.. an FM2, but in the planes we are discussing, leaving w/ impunity is not something that is available. If you screw up badly in a furball and want to escape, chances are very good that someone in a higher E state speed plane is going to bounce you and try to make you pay. It's not a given, I'll grant you, but it's a good possibility.
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Lazs, Urchin – thanks for wading in with some excellent posts.
I’m glad that you guys can see what I’m saying, along with others like xtremeJ and moot, even if some others cannot.
Shane, it’s really no surprise that you’re screaming the loudest at me. You are the epitome of an EasyMode™ ding-a-ling. In tour 47, a full 70% of your 370 kills were scored in the Big Three subset, with 204 of those being in the LA7 alone. If you are as good as you so tediously tell everyone you are, why the need for such überity? I see you tried the 109G2 – 1 kill, 1 death; maybe you gave up on it when you found it wasn’t sufficiently über for your purposes.
I remind those just joining that I observed that with very few exceptions in certain tours, everyone in the top 100 fighter ranks has at some time flown the Big Three subset in that tour. We’ve found one exception so far. One. I could understand the likes of Shane getting bent out of shape if I had said something like ”everyone in the top 100 relies absolutely on the Big Three subset”. That is clearly untrue and I never said that. In some cases, those in the top 100 got only a relative handful of kills in the Big Three, but fly the Big Three they did.
However, in Shane’s case in particular, that statement (had I said it) would be perfectly true. And that’s because the Big Three is pretty much what he flies, hence 70% of his kills last tour were in those three planes. And that’s one of the two reasons he’s squealing at me so loud right now. The other reason is of course that he has an ego the size of a water buffalo which, I suspect, has been dented by these revelations.
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Originally posted by Steve
Lazs, I know ya don't fly any late war stuff so I'll comment on the above. There are SO many la7's, ponies, D9's, and tyhies in the arena that there is no such thing as leaving the fight w/ impunity, sans the 262. It is definitely more probable that one could disengage w/ a pony or d9 than say.. an FM2, but in the planes we are discussing, leaving w/ impunity is not something that is available. If you screw up badly in a furball and want to escape, chances are very good that someone in a higher E state speed plane is going to bounce you and try to make you pay. It's not a given, I'll grant you, but it's a good possibility.
No, what lets you get away from a fight with impunity is speed AND acceleration. So an La7 is perfect, the Tiffie isn't far behind. What typically happens if you are in a "late war" plane like a Dora is this. You'll be fighting someone, and a spit comes along. Ok, now you decide to run. Fortunately, even thought the Spit accelerates a lot better than you do, you are faster, so you can dive away. Now, you are on the deck with a spit and a whatever chasing you. Now another high plane (any plane) dives on you. Well, now you cant just run away, so you have to manuever. So, you manuever so the cherrypicker/herder doesn't get the kill. Now, the spit catches up and at this point you are dead. You can no longer dive to get out of trouble, and you can't accelerate away from the spit, nor the other two random planes (one of which will be one of the "big 4" 95% of the time). The La-7 can get out of almost any situation because you can manuever hard enough to bleed off EVERYONES speed (including the guy that just dove on you), then level out and be out of guns range in 3 seconds. Well, 5 seconds for Hizookas. That is why people fly the "el gay"... even though it is quite a formidable fighter, people use it to run other people down and herd them back into the ****fire/nik conga-line, or to run away in case the one guy everyone is chasing gets some friends.
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this isn't about what or how i fly. it's about you getting caught with your trousers down to your ankles.
you were wrong in your observation and arguments. been proven. can't be denied. now if you want to squirm and dance and further revise your argument feel free, but better do a better job of it or yet someone else will come along and prove you wrong. again.
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Hey Beet, speaking of the G2, I tried it twice this tour for the first time. It's a nice lil ride. fun stuff! I still hold to my request. Wing me once in a pony, then I'll reciprocate in the G2... what say you?
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Originally posted by Urchin
The La-7 can get out of almost any situation because you can manuever hard enough to bleed off EVERYONES speed (including the guy that just dove on you), then level out and be out of guns range in 3 seconds. Well, 5 seconds for Hizookas. That is why people fly the "el gay"... even though it is quite a formidable fighter, people use it to run other people down and herd them back into the ****fire/nik conga-line, or to run away in case the one guy everyone is chasing gets some friends.
Hehe, do you think that's why Shane flies it? :lol
Shane: No sir. YOU are wrong. I said what I said, and it's almost completely true. So far we have found only ONE exception to what I said. ONE! Refining my arguments? I have had to spell it out for you, and have tried to explain. Of course, people like you then accuse me of "dodging/squirming/dancing". BS. I said what I said, I was careful in what I said, and with the exception of Tarmac/tour 45, I was right. And you can't prove otherwise. You have no material data to disprove what I said. You can't even come up with an additional exception to what I said. All you can do is rant like a ten year old, wailing in a flood of tears because his audience has figured out the card trick he tried to perform.
Steve, yes the G2 is a good challenge. Any 109 has been for me. Hehe, I used to suck so badly in WB 109's that I submitted my 109 type rating for cancellation. ;) But like Urchin says, it's not a good plane if you're looking for rank. And it's a disaster to fly alone with no wingman. In real life it wouldn't have been so bad, but in real life it probably never fought against P51/LA7/Spit ix. It's slower than an LA7 and P51, and probably the Spit ix; it doesn't roll well, it doesn't turn as well as any of the Big Three. So in Urchin's scenario, things will pan out pretty much as he says. When you engage a con and another one shows up, there's an excellent chance that #2 is going to be a P51, a Spit ix, or an LA7. As Urchin has said before, even the 109G10 versus a Spit ix will end in stalemate. Others have said the G6 is no match against a Spit ix, and maybe the G2 has no chance.
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Since this turns on the plane vs pilot debate, the other flaw in beet1e's point no one has touched is the comparision between the Top 100 and the next 200-300 pilots.
Beet1e's Big3+Subset, or Urchin's Big4 dominates the arena for popularity...that has been generally accepted. So is usage somehow less in the 200s or 300s in rank?
The only way Beet1e's point of the Top 100 making use of the Big3+subset becomes significant is if the next 200-300 pilots flew them less.
The near total popularity of 4 aircraft erodes the concept of "easy mode". If everyone is flying one of these impossibly good uber-fighters what accounts for the seperation in scoring?
If HTC turned off all fighters except the Spit9 for 1 camp, it would be interesting to see just how much changed in the rankings.
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Originally posted by beet1e
However, in Shane’s case in particular, that statement (had I said it) would be perfectly true. And that’s because the Big Three is pretty much what he flies, hence 70% of his kills last tour were in those three planes. And that’s one of the two reasons he’s squealing at me so loud right now. The other reason is of course that he has an ego the size of a water buffalo which, I suspect, has been dented by these revelations.
I can't believe I'm doin' this....:D.
Beets, I have seen how Shane flys many of his 'missions'. He flys them much the same way that I often do. That is...look for a sector with a lot more enemies than friendlies. Head there and look to bounce a bunch of guys. Before ragging him for 'flying the BIG 4', I suggest you fly a mile in his shoes :). Take a G2 or G6 and head to a sector where you are outnumbered at least 4 to 1. Kill 3 or 4....then pop back in and rag away :D. (btw, been doin' this since the middle of last camp (mostly the G6). It is fun...but not conductive to survival.
I do believe you will find it is rather difficult to be successful flying your chosen rides with out a lot of help (.ie..plenty of friendlies so that attention is not focused on you).
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High rank? Don't shower for a month.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hehe, do you think that's why Shane flies it? :lol
Shane: No sir. YOU are wrong. I said what I said, and it's almost completely true. So far we have found only ONE exception to what I said. ONE! Refining my arguments? I have had to spell it out for you, and have tried to explain. Of course, people like you then accuse me of "dodging/squirming/dancing". BS. I said what I said, I was careful in what I said, and with the exception of Tarmac/tour 45, I was right. And you can't prove otherwise. You have no material data to disprove what I said.
akak tour 47 ranked 124 ftrs, not one easy-mode plane. there's your original observation and argument shot down in flames.
dmdcoach, tour 47, ranked 28 in ftrs. not one easy-mode plane.
there's your second argument shot down in flames. it also serves to shoot down your first observation and argument.
both found within a 5 min persual of the stats/scores. for *one* tour. and since we're going by absolutes (yours by the way), you sure can't play the statistically insignificant card, now, can you?
want more "data?" already found a few more absolutes ready to post. even quite a few more if you accept a >3% total kills in the easy-moders.
put these two together and the the most recent one above, in bold italic, is also shot down in flames. back to tower you go, wondering, htf he do that? face it. the attached gif says all we need to know about you.
you're pretty dense, no?
thank you for playing, please deposit another quarter and try again.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_150_1067007805.gif)
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Beets, I have seen how Shane flys many of his 'missions'. He flys them much the same way that I often do. That is...look for a sector with a lot more enemies than friendlies. Head there and look to bounce a bunch of guys.
Read Urchin's post. The whole thing about Shane's #1 ride is that you can do that, and it doesn't matter if you screw up. If you do, all you have to do is run. The only thing that's likely to catch you is another LA7, and as Zanth once said there's a 50/50 chance that it's being flown by an idiot.
Shane: akak tour 47 ranked 124 ftrs, not one easy-mode plane. there's your original observation and argument shot down in flames.
Erm... no. If you remember, I was talking only about pilots ranked in the top 100. 124 is not in the top 100. :rolleyes: Case dismissed. dmdcoach, tour 47, ranked 28 in ftrs. not one easy-mode plane.
Hehe, I'm glad you finally conceded to the easymode™ tag. Wow! you're right! So now, the number of exceptions to Beet1e's Rule has risen by 100%. It's gone from ONE to TWO!!! :eek:
ROFL - the thought of Shane pounding his way through the stats and scores. :lol HTC better turn up the aircon in the server room. :D
Gonna hit the sack now. I shall sleep well. Toodle-Pip! :aok
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foucs, son, focus!! this is not about me or urchin. this is all about YOU. you made it that way, we'll stick to topic, mmmmkay?
go back and read your original observation and argument. here, let me quote it, yet again.
"And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes."
i do believe akak was ranked higher than you that particular tour. case dismissed. you are hereby sentenced to reading is phundamental 101 to be taken simultaneously with Writing Effectively 101 and English as a Second Language.
i guess now instead of being 100% wrong, you're 200% wrong! finally!! glad you found something you're good at!!
lol, i found the proof of the pudding in less time than it took you to type that original WoT. it was easy because i actually engage a lot of people and get to know who flys what. you spent more time looking at stats than i did, for sure. how many did you toss out because they refuted your argument?
dance on, fred! hmm that's an insult to mr. astaire. you're nowhere near as graceful. i hereby dub thee... The Nutty Professor!
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Jeez Shane. Sig files that big R 4 putzez :)
culero
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Wait a minute....never mind ;)
culero (was ignoring the obvious)
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Dmdcoach is a good stick and a nice guy but he is a poor example of one who didn't fly the "Easymode" planes. How one can count a pony as easy mode and not the tiffie is a mystery me to me. The tiffie is faster than the pony at lower alts(where most fights take place) and has 4 hispanos. Of his 790 kills, over 700 were in a tiffie or a tempy.
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hey, i'm only working with what bee1e gave me to work with. i'd also say the chog and 109g10 are as easy-mode as a pony/la7. but... ya know? i'm only here to kick beet1e around.
:)
and just cuz knits reset and i have a few mins to spare..
tour47 top 100 absolutes: agalland... maybe 1 or 2 more... not gonna spend more time proving what's already been proven. so we've now established that beet1e is at least 300% wrong for his 2nd argument. it goes up even more if you use his first observation/argument and go up to anyone ranked better than himself.
tour 47 top 100 >3% big-3: several.... getting less than 3% of total kills is statistically insignificant to their ranking.
:p
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Ok.
After following this thread in the last day while refraining from commenting, I can no longer hold back.
I tried my best to stand off and let it all "flow" as these threads have a way of doing. But I've got to the point that I can no longer restrain myself.
I apologise for not adding anything meaningful to the debate, but I only have one thing to contribute.
Shane ??
It's time..
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p65095b80ec5ec869273ec6fdaf6b777d/f9fe2d37.jpg)
Please continue..
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Originally posted by nopoop
Shane ??
It's time..
now that christmas is over, i wonder if it's safe to bring out jesus?
:aok <--- imagine jesus here.
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Originally posted by Steve
Dmdcoach is a good stick and a nice guy but he is a poor example of one who didn't fly the "Easymode" planes. How one can count a pony as easy mode and not the tiffie is a mystery me to me. The tiffie is faster than the pony at lower alts(where most fights take place) and has 4 hispanos. Of his 790 kills, over 700 were in a tiffie or a tempy.
Typhoon is probably the best plane for cherrypickers. It has good speed, good acceleration, the most firepower stuck on any plane in the game, and it climbs ok. I'd say the P-51 is better all around, but that is just me personally speaking.
The reason I call the La-7, N1k, spit IX, and P-51D "the big 4" is because they are far, far and away the most used planes in the game. While I understand the Spit V isn't the same plane as the Spit IX, if one looks around on your average primetime night, you'll see about 50% of the planes have an icon saying La-7, Spit, N1K, or P51. If you cut out the Spit V, they probably run about 35% of "total kills". With the Spit V, probably 40%-ish. Add in the next top plane, and you are talking 45% of the kills (mind you, not every plane that is up in the air gets a kill) scored in the MA by an airplane.
Of those four, it is my firm belief that HTC put in the N1K2 and La-7 to give newbies something that would be so hard to **** up in that literally anyone could hop in them and be "competitive". The Spit IX has similar performance, but all the usage can't be "blamed" on its performance, it was/is quite a famous plane. Same for the P-51D... the performance doesn't put it in the "top bracket" (which for that "class" of planes is held by the La-7/ Tempest), but it was/is the most well-known American warbird in history. The La-7 and N1K on the other hand, I think see about 99% of their use purely because they are the "top planes" in their respective categories.
But back to your original point, the Typhoon is a second rate La-7 with first rate firepower. The reason it doesn't make the cut for "Big 4" (or possible Easymode/dweebplane) status is because it is only about half as common as the top 4 planes.
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Ahh... but Beet1e made no mention of frequency of use... I think you make valid points Urch, but using Beet's logic, I still feel the tiffie is "Easymode".
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Originally posted by Steve
Ahh... but Beet1e made no mention of frequency of use... I think you make valid points Urch, but using Beet's logic, I still feel the tiffie is "Easymode".
cc urchins definition being slightly different, but not really, than beet1e's... but by using urchins usage%, should not we be allowed to include in the point under contention those who might fly those big-4 but get less than the overall usage % of their kills in them? deja's stats page is a good place to find out % of overall kills by model type.
so if the big-4 get, say 45% of the total kills, if one only glys the big-4 for a total of say 15% of their own individual kills, wouldn't it be a valid contention that they can achieve a sub-100 ftr rank without having to "rely" on the big-4 to get there?
in any case, beet1e is still proven wrong. that's one thing that can't be changed or hedged off. :D
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Originally posted by Steve
Dmdcoach is a good stick and a nice guy but he is a poor example of one who didn't fly the "Easymode" planes. How one can count a pony as easy mode and not the tiffie is a mystery me to me. The tiffie is faster than the pony at lower alts(where most fights take place) and has 4 hispanos. Of his 790 kills, over 700 were in a tiffie or a tempy.
Steve...
Correct on both counts. However, Coach is a "one-trick tiffie". The only time he flys anything else is when I rag him about it (we lost a 2v2 duel at the con a couple of years ago because of Coach's Tiffie fetish :D).
For some time now I have felt that the Tiff is waaaay to easy. There are negatives. But, they don't out way the positives with it. The big positive being guns. Basically, I agree with Urchin. If you hit 'em...they die. Without the lethality of the Hispanos, the Tiffie would not be near as dangerous as it is.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Read Urchin's post. The whole thing about Shane's #1 ride is that you can do that, and it doesn't matter if you screw up. If you do, all you have to do is run. The only thing that's likely to catch you is another LA7, and as Zanth once said there's a 50/50 chance that it's being flown by an idiot.
Beets...
...and you totally missed my point. The majority of La7's that I see are the run of the mill Lemming Warriors or noobs that think the plane will save them. My point is that Shane is neither. (Pssst...this is one of those reasons that the scoring system lacks validity when attempting to measure a another player's skill since it can not take fighting style into account). Your 7/13 in La7's does not lend credibility too your argument. No, I'm not trying to be a Richard Cranium about it :). I'm just suggesting that you take one of those uber planes, fight against the odds for a camp or so. You just might find that, contray to popular opinion, they aren't always so uber :).
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So, who would have more success? Someone who is constantly fighting 3v1 in a 109E4, or someone who is constantly fighting 3v1 in a spit/nik or la7?
Points still valid, imo.
And steve- they are the most used planes for a reason. You know perfectly well what that reason is.
I still think the original point is valid, if somewhat pointless, since it is nearly impossible to prove or refute. Who can say how well someone would do if they flew for a month in X plane. Not me, I never do it. I fly all different planes, I find it difficult to stay with the same one for an entire month.
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To score high you must do this.
1: Pratice.Listen to the vets.Find a plane that suits you reGARDLESS of weather or not Beet thinks its suitable.
2: Ignore the dweebs that tell you your choice of plane is bad.When they pay your 14.95 then listen.Till then tell them to STFU.
3: There are NO easy ways to score hi.You MUST be good at all aspects to score high.
4: If you feel the need to do the things gamey wise to score hi the rest of the arena will realise this and your small mental award will mean nothing to anyone but you.
5: above all ENJOY the game whatever scope that takes.As for the Big 4 nazis?They can kiss my ass.
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Originally posted by Urchin
So, who would have more success? Someone who is constantly fighting 3v1 in a 109E4, or someone who is constantly fighting 3v1 in a spit/nik or la7?
Points still valid, imo.
why pick the earliest of early planes? i think someone, in say, a 109f4, or f6f would do as well... some do...
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Originally posted by culero
Wait a minute....never mind ;)
culero (was ignoring the obvious)
Maybe he'll add me for saying, "Quoting yourself and giving yourself credit in a sigfile will make you go blind." :D
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Originally posted by Shane
why pick the earliest of early planes? i think someone, in say, a 109f4, or f6f would do as well... some do...
No, they wouldn't. I was making a point, but someone in a 109F4 or F6F wouldn't do as well as someone in a spit/nik (if they chose to fight) or as an la7 (if they chose to run).
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Hell of a point you guys are tring to make. I feel like just saying well DAHHHHHH
Of course every pilot gets better in a better plane.
But none of that has anything to do with scoreing, because guess what ladies and gents, all planes fight all planes.
HiTech
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Originally posted by beet1e
I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes. The process was tedious, with each player's score having to be checked individually. So after a few random checks, I started to look at every tenth player, ie. rankings #10, #20, #30 etc. all the way up to #100. (I was #103 at that time) Couldn't find a single one.
ROFL! Who would have thought that such an innocuous, casual observation could have generated such a threadfest as this! :lol
Shane, you'd better read what I said again above. At the time I made that check, I was ranked at #103, and for the purposes of checking those ranked higher than me, I used the top 100. Sorry I can't remember who #101 and #102 were. :rolleyes: And forget about akak and his #124; we'll continue to stick to the top 100.
Nothing in that self quoted paragraph was wrong. I made it clear that I had not had time to check EVERY stat. I searched for those who had never flown the big three, and I couldn't find any because it was like looking for a needle in a haystack. Now, if I had known that this topic was going to turn into the Spanish Inquisition, I would have done what I did today...
... which was to get to the heart of the matter, and check every single score for the top 100 fighter ranks in the last tour. And these are my findings. And Shane might like some of this. :D
There were only 9 guys in that top 100 who never flew P51/LA7/Spit ix. Mobil (ranked 56) was a borderline case. He flew a P51B in which he died but got no kills.
Of those 9 guys, who as far as I could tell NEVER flew P51/LA7/Spit ix, there was often (but not always) some other easymode/dweeb/überity factor at play, as has been discussed above by Steve, Urchin etc. Here is the list: - tarmac (20) - we already know about.
- DmdCoach (28) - lots of kills in TYPH, as discussed above - in fact of 790 kills, 593 were in the TYPH.
- Agalland (31) excellent F4U1D score.
- pjk9 (35) - 250 of 338 kills in a 190D9, but
! I've met pjk, and he's cool. ;) - popy (48) - vast majority of fighter kills achieved in a N1K.
- tori3 (50) zeke5 ace - WTG!
- Yaws (58) - 109 ace - WTG!
- lazerus (59) 190A8 expert
- GTR - ki61
A full 91% of those guys in the top 100 had, at some point, flown the big 3. I said that this was the case, with very few exceptions. How many exceptions? It doesn't even stretch to a double digit value, which in my book is very few. I said what I said, I was careful in what I said, and I was right. These are the FACTS.
Now some of you are asking to what extent did these 91 guys make use of the Big Three? And the answer is that some guys made a small amount of usage of those planes. But that does not invalidate what I said, which was NOT an argument, but a casual observation. But by the same token, many of those guys made massive use of the Big Three. I noticed this especially near the end of my list - ranks 80-100 - page after page of guys who'd got hundreds of kills in the Big Three, but just token amounts in the other planes. Some guys flew two out of three, and some guys (like Shane) fly all three. Hehe, was looking forward to checking Shane's stats, but even the Big Three überkrutch couldn't take him to the top 100 last tour. Better luck next time, matey. ;)
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Beet, here's a casual observation:
"Beige, I think I'll paint the ceiling beige."
And it has about as much relevance to who is and who isn't a good PC pixel pilot in AH as your "casual observation".
Beige too cryptic?
Q: What's the difference between a prostitute, a nymphomaniac, and a blonde?
A: The prostitute says "Aren't you done yet?"
The nympho says "Are you done already?"
The blonde says "Beige...I think I'll paint the ceiling beige."
I think a lot of folks are having the same reaction to your energetically expressed "discovery".
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oooo.. well regardless of what you were ranked at the time, end of tour is where it all counts, right? i mean i could outrank you on day 2 without flying those planes (and be in the top 100). i think i was ranked like 8 on day 2 and i had used a 109f4 to get 8 landed kills in ftr category.
and you've just admitted to being 900% wrong. of course that % goes up even further if you include those who only flew the big-3 (and their "subsets") a very small % of their kills.
and bear in mind, you did say later on,
"The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix."
so no matter how you try and spin it. you're still wrong in what you observed, or rather argued. the above is a very declarative statement, an argument if you will.
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Anyone could rank in the top 10 with nothing but crap planes, say for ex. the D11.
Vulching, or actually flying well, and the stats would not tell the difference.
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and even if he did fly well, he'd do a 262 sortie to buzz a MAW swarm for fun, and that'd void the entire tour.
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LOL toad... funny :)
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Originally posted by kj714
"bugger of game - golf that is - few minutes of excitment , surrounded by hours of frustration".
Hmmmmmmmm... sounds like "big isles and pizza".
:p
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Originally posted by beet1e
When you engage a con and another one shows up, there's an excellent chance that #2 is going to be a P51, a Spit ix, or an LA7. As Urchin has said before, even the 109G10 versus a Spit ix will end in stalemate. Others have said the G6 is no match against a Spit ix, and maybe the G2 has no chance.
It seems that this argument depends on every pilot being of equal skill, which is decidedly not the case.
I decided to fly the 109s for base defense last tour. I almost always took gondolas for the improvement in snap-shot killing power. Most of the time I took a G-2 because it offers a better balance of handling and speed than the others. I didn't experience the perceived horror at being engaged by a second and even third enemy while already in a fight. Sure it happened from time to time, but if you kill the primary target quickly you can then concentrate on the interloper. I lost four 109s during tour 47, two to ground fire, one to an auger and the last to a collision.
My point is, unless the guy in the La-7 or Spitfire is a lot better than the run-of-the-mill player, they are in deep bandini, because the G-2 is very good energy fighter and it excels at working angles. Not only that, but even with the gondolas, it can hang with the P-51 and La-7 until they either run or die. Sure the Spitfire IX has the edge it a turning fight. But where does it say you must engage in a turning fight?
I see the bellyaching about the La-7 constantly on these boards. I honestly don't get it though. I do not find the La-7 to be anything more than a target usually piloted by guys who have minimal skills. Sure it's a fabulous airplane (at least as modeled in AH), but so what?
Just because some geek drives a BMW M3, it doesn't mean that he has clue-one how drive it to its limits. There's little doubt his limits are not even close to the car's.
As far as working towards a high ranking is concerned, fly anything with cannons and fly with the horde, vulch as much as possible. Get 50 fighter kills, cherry-pick over furballs with a Tiffie or Dora, then do the same in attack mode, only bomb and strafe easy to hit targets (hangers are hard to miss) and continue to vulch. Bomb undefended rear bases or strat targets (factories). Park a Tiger on the beach and kill LVTs, or spawn camp with same. Sortie a PT boat to a port and shoot some rockets into the base. Finally get a few captures in M3s and goons. Whadda ya know? Top 100. Big freakin' deal........ That and a buck-fifty will get ya on the subway.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Mr. Toad
And it has about as much relevance to who is and who isn't a good PC pixel pilot in AH as your "casual observation".
As Mr. Spock may have said, "Quite correct, Captain!". :) This thread has been about how to get a good rank. It has had bugger all to do with becoming a better pilot. The vast majority of guys in the top 100 have flown the Big Three. I made no comment as to what extent they relied upon the Big 3 überkrutch in order to GET into that top 100. Therefore, what I said is still correct.
Hehe, Shane is working his way towards the DA challenge. :lol oooo.. well regardless of what you were ranked at the time, end of tour is where it all counts, right?
Wrong. I am free to make whatever observations I choose, at whatever time I like. I am not concerned about my own rank. I never (ie not since about 2 years ago) fly the Big 3 or even the Big 5, and I don't have a squad, so I'm hardly likely to get a good rank. But as you're so interested in end-of-tour ranks, I did that research this afternoon, using tour 47. And more than 90% of the folks in the top 100 flew the Big Three at some point in that tour. That is not a mistake, that is not spin, that is FACT. Some of those guys in the top 100 could have got there without recourse to the Big Three. But guess what? They didn't. in any case, beet1e is still proven wrong. that's one thing that can't be changed or hedged off.
Erm, nope - nothing wrong with what I said. Spin it any way you want, but when the spinning stops, I can point to A, B, and C, and demonstrate that I was completely correct in what I said. And however much you say I was wrong won't alter the fact that it was I who was right, and you who were wrong.
Sure, I said "resorting" to the Big Three, because in my mind it is a last resort.
Urchin said "And steve- they are the most used planes for a reason. You know perfectly well what that reason is."
SHACK!!! Urchin has been one of my 109 mentors. A young guy, but a decent stick, without being a self adulatory conceited salamander...
...so, Shane loses. He's in here to kick me around, and I'm in here to take pot shots at people's egos. I may not be a good shot (though I was better than I thought I'd be). But when it comes to popping egos, in Shane's case, I don't even have to take aim. You know, Shane, back when I flew for Bishops, I even knew of guys who had a stick button or macro set up to squelch your tedious behind, so as not to have to listen to your torrent of self adulation on Ch1. I can't believe that you could take such an innocuous observation such as mine, and blow it out of all proportion. Still, the biggest egos are also the most fragile. :lol
I'd love a session in the CT just now, but my crappy Logitech stick is broken - will have to wait for a replacement. So... until next time, Love from Beet1e xx
Toodle-Pip. :):)
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"Still, the biggest egos are also the most fragile."
grmph, I have to introduce you to a few people..
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hehe, Shane is working his way towards the DA challenge. :lol Wrong.
why would i want to take you to the DA when you're incapable of learning? and the fact your fragile ego prevents it.
spin, spin, spin, deflect, deflect, deflect all you want. you're still wrong.
tsk, there's that english tripping you up again.
re·course
a. The act or an instance of turning or applying to a person or thing for aid or security: have recourse to the courts.
b. One that is turned or applied to for aid or security: His only recourse was the police.
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Here, let me try then.
The vast majority of the guys in the Top 100 use a joystick to fly the game.
Or:
The vast majority of the guys in the Top 100 pay HTC to play the game.
Or:
The vast majority of the guys in the Top 100 have, at one time or another, tasted a beer.
All as relevant as anything you've said in this thread with respect to rank.
IMO, of course.
oh, yeah........ beige.
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- FACT - Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
Idiom:
in (point of) fact
In reality or in truth; actually.
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send me sum info that will help me get this running or pls don't send anything at all
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i'm still correct with the usage...
please do try harder, you're an embarrassment to poseurs everywhere.
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Originally posted by twigace
send me sum info that will help me get this running or pls don't send anything at all
and what exactly would this "this" thing you're referring to be?
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How to get a high rank maybe? lol... we've wandered completely off-topic I think.
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This has degenerated into another of Beet's lag whines.
I don't understand the whine. There fun to fight. I'm very average and don't do half bad against them.
Flew a few sorties in them and couldn't hit squat with the guns. That would apply to FM2's also.
To each his own. Beet it is really personal choice.
I don't see a reason for the complaint anyway. From the films you've posted I've never seen you "fight" anyhow.
From your end it might seem like a fight, but from my end I wouldn't break sweat.
But what qualifies as a fight is open to ones own view also.
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Originally posted by DrDea
To score high you must do this.
1: Pratice.Listen to the vets.Find a plane that suits you reGARDLESS of weather or not Beet thinks its suitable.
2: Ignore the dweebs that tell you your choice of plane is bad.When they pay your 14.95 then listen.Till then tell them to STFU.
3: There are NO easy ways to score hi.You MUST be good at all aspects to score high.
4: If you feel the need to do the things gamey wise to score hi the rest of the arena will realise this and your small mental award will mean nothing to anyone but you.
5: above all ENJOY the game whatever scope that takes.As for the Big 4 nazis?They can kiss my ass.
Wow...the most common sense post I've read in this thread.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by nopoop
From the films you've posted I've never seen you "fight" anyhow.
He's afraid to snap that timid little wrist he has doing that crazy 'ACM' stuff.
ack-ack
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Now here is an intresting 8 page topic.
Let me translate for all of you who did not read the entire postings.
Blah, blah, blah, rankings, blah, blah, score, blah, blah, blah, top pilots, blah blah, blah, rank, blah, blah, blah, scoring system, blah, blah, blah, blah, my rank, blah, blah, blah, and blah!!
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Urchin said:
So I still think it is true that most people in the top 100 for fighters rely on their plane to get them there, and would not be there if not for that.
really? NOT
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Originally posted by Widewing
I see the bellyaching about the La-7 constantly on these boards. I honestly don't get it though. I do not find the La-7 to be anything more than a target usually piloted by guys who have minimal skills. Sure it's a fabulous airplane (at least as modeled in AH), but so what?
My thoughts exactly. I'm 11-1 against them this tour and I've been screwing around trying to learn the P38...a plane thats supposed to get eaten up by LA7s.
Its a bad plane for newbies. Poor gunnery neuters the pilot as a threat from anywhere except close 6 and that much hyped acceleration victimises rookie pilots who have no concept of throttle control.
LA7s are great for highlight reels because they'll give you those spectacular overshoots to ooo and ah over.
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On my end I seem to fly the same whether it be a turner or an E plane. One Dee and spitty 5 are my favorites. Dabble in different aircraft but my favorite stable remains constant. Usually around a 50-50 mix between the two with a hellkitty, 51 ( fuel porkage ) or a Yak thrown into the mix.
Regardless of what I fly, when all is said and done the K/D K/H K/S and gunnery remains the SAME.
Exceptions on the good side are the C-hog and the tiffy. I usually kick booty in those.
Exceptions on the bad side are the FM2, 51B's and F4U1-A's. I just die.
I lean towards the pilot not the plane. For the simple fact that from my experience unless it's drastic, it makes no difference with my results.
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“Nopoop” would seem to be a bit of a misnomer in this case. :D
Because your earlier post is full of it!
” This has degenerated into another of Beet's lag whines. I don't understand the whine. There fun to fight.” The reason you can’t understand the whine is because it isn’t a whine. Seems like some people can’t differentiate between an argument, a whine, and a casual observation! But then again, some people cannot differentiate between “there”, “their”, and “they’re”, so it’s hardly surprising. ;)
My career k/d against LA7 is about 2.28, so no complaints about the Lag; would be nice if every other plane was not a lag though, which is how it is in the CT. Which is why I fly there these days.
” I don't see a reason for the complaint anyway. From the films you've posted I've never seen you "fight" anyhow.” Yeah, and yet in most tours I end up in the top 200 fighter ranks. Funny how that happens without “fighting”. Which must mean that there are about 3,000 other guys not fighting. Either that, or, as we’ve been saying all along, rank means bugger all. :D
” But what qualifies as a fight is open to ones own view also.” I guess you must be right on that one. Because HTC’s interpretation of “fighting” would seem to differ from yours, if the scoresheets are to be believed. :aok
BTW, nopoop, give me a webcam and I’ll be able to post a film of me typing that. :lol :aok:aok
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Beets...
...and you totally missed my point. The majority of La7's that I see are the run of the mill Lemming Warriors or noobs that think the plane will save them. My point is that Shane is neither. (Pssst...this is one of those reasons that the scoring system lacks validity when attempting to measure a another player's skill since it can not take fighting style into account). Your 7/13 in La7's does not lend credibility too your argument. No, I'm not trying to be a Richard Cranium about it :). I'm just suggesting that you take one of those uber planes, fight against the odds for a camp or so. You just might find that, contray to popular opinion, they aren't always so uber :).
I flew the LA7 one evening about two years ago for experimental purposes. I knew nothing about the type, and flying it was the best way to find out what it could and could not do. True - 7 kills, 13 deaths - I'll come back to this in a moment.
You know, if I simply mention that I got 27 kills in a P51D one evening, without being pinged even once, someone will be quick to point out that this feat does not make me an expert. True enough, but I never claimed to be an expert; I merely said that it had been easy.
Similarly, if I were to point out that I had a 11/1 career k/d in the 190F8, you might be quick to point out (along with many others) that as I have only 11 kills and 1 death in that plane that the data does not form a representative sample, and you would be quick to dismiss my stats on it as meaningless.
So I find it rather curious that when the situation is reversed, and a plane is discovered for which my career stats are 7/13, that people like shane-the-spin-merchant and yourself should seize upon those stats to make a "point".
Hmmm, funny that. :confused: Can you say "biased"? :aok
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Ya know I dont think it would be too far off to say that the "Majority" of the arena flies one of the "big4" at some time in every camp.In fact I would wager a guess that its much MORE than the majority. Fly what ya like.Like what you fly.Dont sit there and expect the world to fit your mold.
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Originally posted by beet1e
So I find it rather curious that when the situation is reversed, and a plane is discovered for which my career stats are 7/13, that people like shane-the-spin-merchant and yourself should seize upon those stats to make a "point".
Hmmm, funny that. :confused: Can you say "biased"? :aok
Not when your claiming its an uber plane and easy to fly yet get killed in it 2 times for every death.If it was an uber plame then you would be expected to have a much more impressive K/D. I still say its the pilot more than the plane in most cases.
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Originally posted by beet1e
So I find it rather curious that when the situation is reversed, and a plane is discovered for which my career stats are 7/13, that people like shane-the-spin-merchant and yourself should seize upon those stats to make a "point".
you have no basis by which to make the claim the la7 is "easy-mode." your own little experiment showed you how difficult it was to fly and get kills in. if it were as easy as you say, one would think you'd have at least a 1:1 in it. oh right... i forgot, the la7 doesn't perform as uber at the altitudes you prefer to operate at.
but hey, you're *the* nutty professor, do please keep us entertained with your antics.
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steve.. I do fly a yak once in a while and have flown the tempest..
You can make sure that yu are untouchable. you may have one threat or so because there is allways someone in the arena that will climb higher than everyone he can see but... you and I know that guy aint much of a threat. I notice that in the fast planes... I get away. I don't have to fight my way home... just look around and go fast. It's not fun but it is pretty risk free.
you are way better off in the best planes in the game... the guys who care about top rank use em because they are the best tool in the game.... by a large margin. they don't use em cause they are fans of those planes... they use em cause they can fight em with the least risk to themselves... they can use/substitute patience for "skill". They have less to worry about in the fastest planes.
lazs
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Originally posted by DrDea
Not when your claiming its an uber plane and easy to fly yet get killed in it 2 times for every death.If it was an uber plame then you would be expected to have a much more impressive K/D. I still say its the pilot more than the plane in most cases.
Now you're doing it. You're very quick to cite my LA7 ineptitude on the strength of one particular evening two years ago - the first, last and only time I ever flew it.
And yet when I got 27 kills in an evening's play in a P51 and claimed it was easy, someone (Steve) said I couldn't claim to be an expert on the strength of one evening - and I didn't hear you disagree, even though then, as now, I wasn't talking to you.
You can't have it both ways.
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/la7a.gif)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Now you're doing it. You're very quick to cite my LA7 ineptitude on the strength of one particular evening two years ago - the first, last and only time I ever flew it.
no more as quick as you to claim the la7 is "easy-mode."
you can't have it both ways.
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Originally posted by Shane
no more as quick as you to claim the la7 is "easy-mode."
you can't have it both ways.
I didn't say it was easy - for me. ;) Though I'm sure that with more than one hour's practice it might have become so.
As Urchin would say - there's a reason why the LA7 is the plane of choice for so many. And we all know what that reason is. And it's not because all its pilots are seeking a challenge.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I flew the LA7 one evening about two years ago for experimental purposes. I knew nothing about the type, and flying it was the best way to find out what it could and could not do. True - 7 kills, 13 deaths - I'll come back to this in a moment.
Similarly, if I were to point out that I had a 11/1 career k/d in the 190F8, you might be quick to point out (along with many others) that as I have only 11 kills and 1 death in that plane that the data does not form a representative sample, and you would be quick to dismiss my stats on it as meaningless.
So I find it rather curious that when the situation is reversed, and a plane is discovered for which my career stats are 7/13, that people like shane-the-spin-merchant and yourself should seize upon those stats to make a "point".
There is nothing curious about your own behaviour and tactics being used against you. After all, you like to 'observe' specific stats, ignore any stats that do not agree with your "point", and ignore the scope of the stats that do point toward a statment.
And you are an LA7 dweeb. You got 12 kills in your Lala, but you died in it 6 times. Even I normally do better than that against the LA7 - largely because there are so many of them being flown by idiots. In your case, no further comment required.
For instance, here you want to compair apples to oranges, by saying you normally do better aginst the La7 compaired to what I did in one last tour, while ignoring the current tours stats (posted on 1/9/04). When you compair oranges to oranges...Beet1e carreer k/d La7=.54 Murdr carreer k/d La7=2.01. Or when you compair apples to apples...Beet1e k/d aginst la7=2.28 Murdr k/d aginst la7=2.33. However making correct compairisons does not say what you want them to does it?
Murdr had a carreer average of 175 kills per tour in a P38, and 8.5 kills in La7. This does not support what you want to say, so ignore. Then if we look at the dora which can be flown in a similar style, but requires significantly more management, 5.51 k/d. This shows the La7 is appearently not being used in the same manner. If it is generally excepted that the La7 is much easier to fly it should be equal to or greater that what is being done in the dora. This also does not point to what you want to say, ignore.
Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
"no-one" is an absolute. You can not be partially or by percentage right with an absolute. You are either right, or you are wrong. You have been show to be wrong. Ignore it, claim to be right anyways.
Here is my observation. After observing several pages in this thread, I have "observed" that Beet1e is consistantly ignorant in his views and statments ;)
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Doing well in an "uber" plane does not necessarily mean you are a good video game pilot, but neither does choosing to fly a crappy plane.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Similarly, if I were to point out that I had a 11/1 career k/d in the 190F8, you might be quick to point out (along with many others) that as I have only 11 kills and 1 death in that plane that the data does not form a representative sample, and you would be quick to dismiss my stats on it as meaningless.
So I find it rather curious that when the situation is reversed, and a plane is discovered for which my career stats are 7/13, that people like shane-the-spin-merchant and yourself should seize upon those stats to make a "point".
Hmmm, funny that. :confused: Can you say "biased"? :aok
Sure I can say "biased"....can you? :D
The point was not that you have a .5/1 K/D in La7s or an 11/1 in F8's. The point is that with that small of a sample, it is hard to accept your judgement on the subject. One night and you know all there is to know?? :)
BTW, on the subject of the scoring system...the Lord spoke unto NB yesterday. The Lord said, "NB, thou art a dumbazz. My scoring system IS valid. Shut thy mouth!". Needless to say, the Lord and I have agreed to disagree :D. That being said, I defer to a Higher Power and shut my yap ;).
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Lazs, you're right on all counts. when you said "with impunity" I may have taken it too literally. OTOH, and what I believe you intended, you meant that if this plane is flown as you described, .."higher than anyone else in the arena" then your statement holds true. I don't have the patience for it anymore and it shows w/ my K/D... I fly a pony yet still die a lot.
I'm sure much of it can be attributed to mediocrity..the rest is that I'm too damned lazy to climb past 8k or so... sometimes up to 12k.
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And yet when I got 27 kills in an evening's play in a P51 and claimed it was easy, someone (Steve) said I couldn't claim to be an expert on the strength of one evenin
I still think that's true. Fly one of these planes for a full tour. Then maybe your *easymode* claim may hold some credibility. Until then it is conjecture w/ anecdotal evidence to support it...at best. Then, once you've done this, how are you going to explain away the pilots that do significantly better than you? Will you actually have to admit that there are some pilots who fly the *easymode* planes that are actually quite talented?
I'll tell you that I already feel this is the case. Shane's La7 is a dangerous plane against anyone. Wldthing's pony is as good as any I've seen and this is a subject I know a bit about. Both cases, it's more the man than the aircraft.
Cmon Beet1e, fly one for a tour, see how you do. I'm willing to take the inverse of this challenge: I'll stay out of all non *easymode* planes for a tour. I think I can place in the top 100 w/out ever stepping into one and I'm not even considered a good pilot by the vets.
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that's what i was thinking, steve... if beet1e flys only the big-3 and subsets for a tour, i'd not touch those.. be interesting to see how we all stacked up. i won't even change my "style."
for clarification big-3 and subsets are....
p51b/d
spit1/5/9/14
la5/7
personally i'd include the niki to make it big 4, but.... i don't like to fly nikis, anyway... it's a POS. :D
plenty of other easy-modes ;) to compete in.. 109's... f6... tiffy (neh), even the c205... and temp... and (c)hogs... nah..
how about it beet1e? Feb. is as short a tour we'll ever have... so you won't have to suffer any indignities for long.
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Originally posted by Shane
plenty of other easy-modes ;) to compete in.. 109's... f6... tiffy (neh), even the c205... and temp... and (c)hogs... nah..
Shane...
HUSH!! Next thing you know..someone will want to perk the damned 205 and its my favorite perk farmin' tractor :).
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Gentlemen and Shane, ;)
I’ve just got back from dinner with my girlie, and I’m a little tired and don’t feel like arguing any more tonight.
Nobaddy! –nice one. :lol
Murdr – I’m sorry if I made you feel bad in this thread.
Talking about getting a good score line, there’s one factor you guys have missed. And that is flying with a squad or in an organised group. That rarely happens for me any more, ever since my squad upped sticks and moved to WW2OL. Their reasons for doing that were not so different from my reasons for getting pissed off with all the uberity crap in the AH MA. But what I found back in W days was that tagging along in an organised group (and it only had to be a group of 3 or 4) made a HUGE difference to k/d and streak. The difference was bigger than could have been achieved by flying the most über of the über planes.
But I don’t have a squad in AH. So when I log on, I have to take off and look for some guys who I think might want to team up with me. There’s my German Rook friend, Ecke – he’s a jolly good chap and good stick, and there’s Steve – but otherwise I’m bumbling along with no intelligence about the enemy, no support, no communication, often no 6-calls and no assistance if I get into a tight squeeze. The first few sorties, I’m likely to get wasted in short order as I figure out what is going on. Does this have an effect on my rank? You bet your fur lined underwear it does!
The maps where hording/steamrollering are prevalent are worst – Children’s and QWW1, although QWW2 is an improvement. :) If you’re a lone wolfer in a mediocre plane, you don’t stand much chance. And I began to get a bit contemptuous of folks who flew only the Big 3, affording themselves the maximum advantage. But it’s OK, because I kill all three more than they kill me. The WHOLE REASON I like the pizza map is… not that I like it as such, but that the fights are more spread out so we don’t get the horde/steamroller.
So when this whole issue of rank came up, I thought I’d look to see what people fly. And it comes as no surprise to find that 91 out of the top 100 fighter ranking guys fly the Big 3. I wanted to make my findings public. I’ve done that now, so no more to say. Point made – QED. :aok
But I’m fine. The CT is there, and that’s where I’ll be. I really like it there. Often, the planeset that come up is not my favourite choice, but at least the match ups will be halfway fair, and if I’m in a 109F4, I won’t have to worry about being bounced by a P51 or LA7.
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why do you keep saying they "fly" the "big 3"? it sounds like you are saying that is their main ride, or even a big percentage of what they fly. if that is what you mean, your way off. if you mean they have flown it a couple times, say it that way. :aok
~S~
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Aww cmon Beet, you and I aren't arguing, just a good spirited tete-e-tete. Nuttin wrong w/ that.
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Originally posted by beet1e
But I’m fine. The CT is there, and that’s where I’ll be. I really like it there. Often, the planeset that come up is not my favourite choice, but at least the match ups will be halfway fair, and if I’m in a 109F4, I won’t have to worry about being bounced by a P51 or LA7.
Holy cow, Beet1e! Those are just the type of fights I like!. Don't you look forward to the challenge of equalizing the E states? ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by beet1e
So when this whole issue of rank came up, I thought I’d look to see what people fly. And it comes as no surprise to find that 91 out of the top 100 fighter ranking guys fly the Big 3. I wanted to paint the ceiling beige. I’ve done that now, so no more to say. Point made – QED. :aok
you sure did. and i think fron "no-one" to "nine" was quite a surprise. "oo..... i" "oo....i" "oo... u... betcha"
oh, and when pizza rolls in, i'll take *one* screenshot of a steamroller horde and delcare that pizza is infested with steamroller hordes. hmmm this beet1e logic is whacked, but... hey, it's irrefutable!
now about that little challenge?
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
BTW, on the subject of the scoring system...the Lord spoke unto NB yesterday. The Lord said, "NB, thou art a dumbazz. My scoring system IS valid. Shut thy mouth!". Needless to say, the Lord and I have agreed to disagree :D. That being said, I defer to a Higher Power and shut my yap ;).
Cod, so much pissing in the wind... so much tallent and you all miss the point (dumbases...)
The point of the AH scoring system is to show who is best at Aces High .
Anything else can be shown At KOTH; in any plane, in any way any of you are good enough to dictate. Any of you that have the mineral, that is (waves to Wildthing).
Y'all make as much sense as a bag of quim in a gay bar.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Murdr – I’m sorry if I made you feel bad in this thread.
And yet a final reply to points by ignoring them :)
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Originally posted by Seeker
The point of the AH scoring system is to show who is best at Aces High .
[/I]
And there you have it.:aok
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Originally posted by Shane
you sure did. and i think fron "no-one" to "nine" was quite a surprise. "oo..... i" "oo....i" "oo... u... betcha"
Eek! I was only 91% right! -which means you were 91% wrong. ;)
toodle-pip
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now how about that challenge?
n/m, i know you won't take it. you know quite well you're not gonna measure up.
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Originally posted by Shane
now how about that challenge?
n/m, i know you won't take it. you know quite well you're not gonna measure up.
I always knew that when we were done arguing, and you had lost, that you would resort to some sort of challenge. (Originally, I thought it was going to be the almighty chest-pounding DA challenge) Yeah, 91% of the guys in the top 100 last tour played EasyMode™/Big Three. Of those who didn't, one got the vast majority of kills in a N1K, and one did the same in a TYPH. And folks have had some things to say about those planes. ;) A definite pattern, with very few (ie. 9) exceptions. Less than 10%. I hardly think that takes my observation and "blows it of the water". :rolleyes: BTW, and this is not what we were talking about (it's just an aside): I started checking the types flown by the guys with an overall rank in the top 100. I stopped at #40. Guess how many I found who had never flown the Big 3 in tour 47? None. Not one. The pattern becomes clearer!
No, I'm not going to fly around in a Stang or LA7 for a month just to make a point. Besides, I'm going to be away on a number of trips. How's that? Well, I know you won't believe this, but there are more things in life than Aces High. Read my above post: There are more factors at play than just plane type. Being in a squad or in an organised group makes a big difference - a bigger difference than plane type.
I live in southern England, and we never have a white Christmas. We never have snow on Christmas Day. I always wonder why we have snow on Xmas cards, because we never get snow at Xmas. But I read a newspaper article a while ago. Apparently we did - in 1968... oh well, that's another observation "blown out of the water" :rolleyes: :aok
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According to you Beet, all ya have to do is fly the 51 or la7 once and you will have tarnished your record.
~S~
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Originally posted by killnu
According to you Beet, all ya have to do is fly the 51 or la7 once and you will have tarnished your record.
~S~
Quite correct.
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when you start payin my $15 a month beet1e i'll fly whatever and whenerver you say.
who gives a rats behind what people fly they pay for a service just like everyone else.
Main Arena is just that the MAIN Arena, we also have the luxury of CT for those early war fanatics and scenerios ect. ect. ect.
how about next time you go to a resturant some dilly waitress says we have a very lg menu availible sir, but you can only have such and such because everyone eats that other stuff.
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lol, beet1e... it's quite clear who was wrong. and never more obvious that you can't measure up.
what color you going to paint the walls?
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I did a little research and found that 100% of the guys who ranked in the top 200 drank water at some point during the tour!
Now, everyone knows water is an "easy mode" drink, available everywhere. It is SO common; you'd think folks would go for a little guava juice. Or something manly, like white lightnin' from a Mason jar.
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Originally posted by Shane
lol, beet1e... it's quite clear who was wrong.
Shane, for once, I agree with you 100%.
Mr. Toad! Water is free, whereas other drinks usually cost money. I think your analysis is distorted by that fact. Water is unperked! Perk drinking water!
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not my water!! it's hard water!!! none of this reliance on a gamey filter for me!!
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Let me break this to you gently, Beet.
Water is NOT free.
There's this thing called "public utilities". They maintain water treatment plants, pipes, pumps, stuff like that. In some places, a water bill is mailed to your home monthly. In others, this stuff is paid for through taxation.
So, sadly, water is PERKED just about everywhere. Oh, sure, there's a few secret stashs, like private wells and lakes and stuff, but even then expensive electricity is normally used to pump the water.
And let's not even go into Evian.............
No, water is not free.
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Mr. Toad... last time I went into a restaurant and was given a glass of water, I was not charged for it! The dilly waitress gave me a menu on which there were about 70 items! But my appetite was not large enough to eat 70 dinners, so I just ordered one. Can you imagine ordering 70 dinners?! I guess JustJim must be an American, posing as Mr. Creosote. :lol
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No, I'm not going to fly around in a Stang or LA7 for a month just to make a point.
This is a study in hypocracy. You'll make a point about these planes, yet won't establish any experience in them to lend any validity to your claim. So, what you're really saying is: "I don't have to do anything just to make a point to make my points have merit."
You need to delete anything you've ever said about La7 or P51 being Easymode. Not only do you have very little knowledge of these planes in the MA, you overtly refuse to garner said knowledge; rendering any statement you make regarding flying them completely bereft of hard evidence to support it.
All male brits are effeminate poofters. I know this because I met one once. I don't need to meet any more Brits just to make a point.
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Originally posted by Steve
This is a study in hypocracy. You'll make a point about these planes, yet won't establish any experience in them to lend any validity to your claim. So, what you're really saying is: "I don't have to do anything just to make a point to make my points have merit."
You need to delete anything you've ever said about La7 or P51 being Easymode. Not only do you have very little knowledge of these planes in the MA, you overtly refuse to garner said knowledge; rendering any statement you make regarding flying them completely bereft of hard evidence to support it.
All male brits are effeminate poofters. I know this because I met one once. I don't need to meet any more Brits just to make a point.
I must really suck cause I keep dying on the 7, the 51 and the spit. Is there anything easyer I can try? Maybe a 38?
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Beet, old chum, you remind me of StSanta and his "Denmark has free education for all!" threads.
The restaurant water was not free. The restaurant paid some government entity for the water in all probability. This cost was included in the price of the other menu items.
There is no "free". Somebody pays, just like the taxpayers in Denmark.
You're welcome.
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Originally posted by Steve
This is a study in hypocracy. You'll make a point about these planes, yet won't establish any experience in them to lend any validity to your claim. So, what you're really saying is: "I don't have to do anything just to make a point to make my points have merit."
Steve, he has been saying all along that the only validation he needs is a statistic interpreted to his liking, while disregarding any facts that disagree:) So I thought it was a study in selective reasoning ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Murdr - I don't know what you're talking about. All this umbrella nonsense. Try to stay on topic.
beet1e-I dont know what you're talking about all this water nonsense. Try to stay on topic. Water is probably a bad direction to go anyways. After all you points dont seem to hold....Oh, never mind.
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Steve, I think you meant hypocrisy, but let me try to answer.
We've talked about that night in WB when I got the 27 kills. And you were quick to point out that it didn't make me an expert. Agreed. I never claimed to be an expert; I just said that I found it easy - 27 kills in an evening, and never getting pinged once.
Urchin said to you that there's a reason that the Big3 plane subset forms the leading choice for so many players. And we all know what that reason is. What do you think the reason is, Steve?
Let's look at Mr. Toad's statement about water... "Water is NOT free. " Quite correct, with very few exceptions hardly worth mentioning. That glass of water in a restaurant may be free at the point of sale to the customer, but not free to the restaurant - not to mention the water that would be needed to wash the glass afterwards. So if instead of gently yanking Mr. Toad's chain I had said "YOU ARE WRONG! I could have put a bucket of water outside on Sunday night, and by now it would be full of water for which I would not have to pay, so that blows your argument out of the water", well then I would be starting to sound like Shane when, on account of a whole 9 people in the top 100 of tour 47 not having flown the Big3, he rebutted my observation that "no-one, with very few exceptions, gets into the top 100 without having flown the Big3". Murdr went even further. He said I was "flat out wrong"! Turns out that my observation was quite correct in 91 out of 100 cases. He also said I would be ignored - but my initial post in this thread has led to about another four pages of the thread!!!
So I am pretty convinced that were I to go ahead with any sort of month long challenge, then regardless of how I did, some sort of spin would be applied to suggest that I had cheated, or had deliberately gone against easy opponents, or had otherwise entered into the challenge with some other form of favourable circumstances. I KNOW what it would be like, after all those "there's no fights on the pizza map" threads. I went to great lengths to post films which prove that the reverse is true, but all that happened is that guys like Rude & Nopoop tried to redefine what constitutes a "fight". Same sort of thing would happen if I did the Shane challenge, and I'm not about to waste a month of my life to find out what I already know.
Why should I delete the remarks I have made about the Big3? Don't you come from that vast bastion of freedom of speech, the USA? are you trying to have me gagged? Of course, you're free to disagree with anything I say, just as I'm free to disagree with folks who say there are no fights on the pizza map, and the people who refuse to accept that more than 90% of people in the top 100 for tour 47 flew the Big3.
EasyMode™! EasyMode™! EasyMode™!
"They laughed when I told them I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now!" - Bob Monkhouse
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Originally posted by beet1e
And yet when I got 27 kills in an evening's play in a P51 and claimed it was easy, someone (Steve) said I couldn't claim to be an expert on the strength of one evening - and I didn't hear you disagree, even though then, as now, I wasn't talking to you.
This is for you beetle..
As a P-51 dweeb myself for these 3 and a half years, i can claim the P-51 as a very easy plane to get kills in "IF" flown smart. Stay fast and know the fights you go into and you wont have any trouble landing 8-9-10-11 kill sorties.
Thats all.
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Don't delete them. At least post a disclaimer: "I could be stating things that have no basis in fact, and not at all based on experience."
Beet, do you feel so inferior in life that you have to make a point to illuminate everyone's typo's and misspellings? Spin this any way you want you, but it's petty.
So I am pretty convinced that were I to go ahead with any sort of month long challenge, then regardless of how I did, some sort of spin would be applied to suggest that I had cheated, or had deliberately gone against easy opponents, or had otherwise entered into the challenge with some other form of favourable circumstances.
Blah blah blah not going to do anything to support my assertions blah blah blah.
EasyMode™! EasyMode™! EasyMode™!
Effeminate poofter Effeminate poofter Effeminate poofter.
So I thought it was a study in selective reasoning
Well Murdr, I just can't find any reasoning in his post re Easymode. all I can find is a haphazardly made statement w/ no data to support it; not even a logical sequence of thought to show it could be a reasonable opinion
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C'mon guys...I'm certain Beetle is a good man...he's just wound a little too tight and is caught up in the analysis of life rather than in the living of it.
He feels superior to others who do not fit his philosophy of flight.
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Wld, you make my point for me. You have spent 3 and 1/2 years flying the pony, so your opinion has merit. Whereas Beetle is discussing that which he knows little about.
Stay fast and know the fights you go into and you wont have any trouble landing 8-9-10-11 kill sorties.
You mean to say " ....and I won't have any trouble landing 8-9-10-11 kill sorties."
You may not have trouble, but almost everyone else does. There are plenty of 51 pilots that try to land those kinds of missions, yet very few do. Why? Well, I submit it's simply because you are a better MA pilot than them. If everyone would have no trouble, there's be lots of people doing it. How many 51 pilots regularly approach thses kinds of numbers?
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Originally posted by Steve
You mean to say " ....and I won't have any trouble landing 8-9-10-11 kill sorties."
You may not have trouble, but almost everyone else does. There are plenty of 51 pilots that try to land those kinds of missions, yet very few do. Why? Well, I submit it's simply because you are a better MA pilot than them. If everyone would have no trouble, there's be lots of people doing it. How many 51 pilots regularly approach thses kinds of numbers?
I was merely pointing out what beetle said about getting 27 kills in one evening, he may know how to fly "right"..
Well of course there are quite a few reasons people may not get those high kills in the P-51.. One of being patience, if you cant be patient enough before swooping down and Cherrying or BnZ'ing that plane you will get slow eventually and die. Knowing where to fly is also another key, you want to pick a base that has about the same number of friendlies as cons.. Having the right squaddies can sometimes help but having no squaddies at all is better.. What i mean by this is you dont have to care about anyones 6 other than your own. Just following some rules in flying will help you get more kills, and having some flight time under your belt doesnt hurt either.
BTW all these rules i gave, i used them during my score whoring month back in January or Feb 2003 :D
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...he may know how to fly "right"..
Right, but since it's one night, one can reasonably assert that it does not establish him as an authority on the subject. It could be that this would be the norm for him, but we just don't know. Were he to put up such remarkable numbers over the course of a month, I think that would establish him as one who knows what he is talking about. Since he has objected to such a test, I drew the conclusion that he fears being exposed as incorrect.
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Well ... Since he usually flies LW planes(Right?), do they not too require "smart" flying, similar to flying a P-51?
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Ya, I think he flies the 109.
Sidebar: When ya goin to the DA next?
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Well if he flies the 109, and the 109 requires same flying methods, does he not pass the test? :)
Right now if you wish ;) Doing nothing but reading bbs..
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Originally posted by Steve
Ya, I think he flies the 109.
he doesn't "fly" it. he hangs on for the ride.
:aok
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Score matters little...enjoy what you're doing...
I prefer the competition between individuals instead of "Everyone in the MA" anyway...
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Dernit, thanks for the offer Wld... I'm at the office though.
I honestly don't know how he flies the 109. I've flown w/ him a time or two only so really can't even tell ya what his skill level is(imho)
I can say that he was a very communicative wingman and willing to help those in trouble.. good things. I enjoyed flying w/ him.
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Originally posted by WldThing
This is for you beetle..
As a P-51 dweeb myself for these 3 and a half years, i can claim the P-51 as a very easy plane to get kills in "IF" flown smart.
Of course it's easy! That's why even I was able to do it! :) Best in AH was in the old scoring system - Victory 12, although I rearmed once. Best in WB was a 12 kill sortie, but 5 of those were what we in AH would know as prox kills. Divine, the game's producer, (Pyro's counterpart) kept spawning on a runway whose spawn point had been bombed. That was the WB flight denial game trick that was in vogue - the current AH equivalent is fuel porkage. Anyway, he spawned 5 times and his plane blew up every time (runway damage counts in WB) and I was the nearest, so I got the points.
Steve said "Right, but since it's one night, one can reasonably assert that it does not establish him as an authority on the subject.". Steve, you're still not listening! I never claimed to be an expert on anything in these games. I've described some of the things that happened in my total P51 experience, and added that I had found it easy. Much easier than getting kills in a 109, in which I sucked. That is not the same as claiming to be an expert!
I'm attaching a .ZIP file for Steve. It contains 2 Word .DOC files. One is from Dec.2000 - me ranting about P51 dweebery, and the other is a thread I started called "Describe your worst plane". Mine was the 109. Through AH, I have been able to change things. But other things remain unchanged - see if you can tell which is which!
Click here, Steve - and all you other nosey bastages (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/forsteve.zip) :D
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The thread opend with a 9 point list of gamey techniques for attaining a higher rank. Several post followed of which the theme was 'see rank is meaningless'
This instigated a debate. After 4 pages of debate by the principals, including HiTech, both sides appearently concluded that the rank system is a general indicator of skill level among those who chose to compete for rank in a tour. The unresolved point was that some believe that gaming the game can out rank skill while others believe that skill will out rank game gaming.
Then on page 5 beet1e offered this observation. (I will quote since so that further posting will not result from paraphrasing)
Originally posted by beet1e
I had been trying to interpret the MA scores yet another way. And that is to locate a player whose fighter rank was better than mine and who did not fly the Easymode/Big Three subset of P51/LA7/Spit ix, because I never do. And what did I find? I couldn't find a single pilot who ranked higher than me who didn't fly one, two, or all three of those planes.
When asked what the point was the following answer was given.
Originally posted by beet1e
The point is that no-one gets into the top 100 fighter ranks, without resorting to the EasyMode™ plane subset, ie P51/LA7/Spit ix.
The point was shown to be incorrect, because players do place in the top 100 fighters. The general trend of limited player use of the three planes in question in the top 100 fighers however, was recognized and agreed upon. Further points were made to show that use of these planes were not prerequsite to placing in the top 100. Which could be interpreted as being the same place the discussion was on page 4, with the gaming the game issue focused specifically on the use of the Big late war planes.
In closing there are some very good arguments and anologies offered scattered throughout the thread. However, at several points they have to be saught for among off topic, and side discussions that do not relate to the thread title.
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Murdr – you’re forgetting the part about the umbrellas, and you still haven’t told us why the man in your avatar pic doesn’t have one. :lol
In his post immediately above, Murdr quoted me twice. In the first quote, notice that I didn’t say that there were no pilots in the top 100 who never flew the Big3. I said I couldn’t find any. And that’s because to do the type of analysis required involves an invidual check of every score in that top 100. That was made clear at the time of the original posting.
Later when asked what the point was, I gave the answer as quoted by Murdr. The use of the word “resorting” may have given rise to the suggestion that pilots got into the top 100 only by flying the Big3. I never said that, and my choice of the word “resorting” is merely a reflection of my thinly veiled disdain for those would fly EasyMode™ planes like the P51. I have harboured said disdain for many years, and if you would care to review the file I posted for Steve, you will see that an incident involving myself and a P51 is described in a newsgroup posting under my WB handle of SCRMBL – way back in 2000. So to my mind, resorting to an EasyMode™ plane to get into the top 100 does not begin when the pilot begins to rack up scores in that plane; it begins when he spawns on the runway.
When I said that “no-one gets into the top 100 without resorting to the Big3”, Murdr said I was flat out wrong. Turns out that I was only 9% wrong, and therefore 91% correct. Besides, I could have been speaking figuratively, just as the statement “Water is NOT free” is a figurative statement, because of course there’s nothing to stop anyone of us collecting rainwater in a bucket, and this bucket of water would be free. But, point taken, and I amended my statement to “no-one, with very few exceptions…” – and I still maintain that 9 guys out of 100, in a game that has thousands of subscribers, is a very small number.
While many players may well have ranked in the top 100 without recourse to the Big3, by the same token many,many players relied heavily on those Big3 planes, some almost to the exclusion of any other types. Having spent Sunday afternoon hacking through those scores, I was amazed to see many guys who I thought were good pilots, shamelessly flying the easiest of planes.
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Originally posted by beet1e
When I said that “no-one gets into the top 100 without resorting to the Big3”, Murdr said I was flat out wrong.
and murdr is right. you were flat out wrong. "no-one" is an absolute as has been mentioned. there's no % play allowed.
spin, spin, spin Nutty Professor!
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Originally posted by WldThing
Well ... Since he usually flies LW planes(Right?), do they not too require "smart" flying, similar to flying a P-51?
Like many in the MA, beet1e's idea of 'smart flying' is being timid.
ack-ack
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How many “spins” can a man’s brain spew before it turns to mush?
eskimo
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The author of post number 413 titled "Cliff notes for How to get high rank" would like to disavow any relationship either private, commercial, or by subsiderary, to the post number 414 titled "Cliff Notes version - Part 2 of 2 "
The author,a participant of the thread, as a public service offered a third person summery of the core content relating to the thread topic. (With one first person reference as an aside)
This should not be confused with the latter mentioned post of similar title. That post contains no less than 16 first person references by its author, and for all appearances does not cover anything relating to the thread topic. It does however, appear to cover its authors main intrest (himself). Unfortunatly its header does not relate this in its content.
Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
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...because some people have closed minds which were already made up before I began the analysis of the top 100. I could do the challenge, but whatever the results, Shane and others would dismiss the attempt, regardless of its outcome, and that's why I'm not going to waste my time doing it.
- "no-one" is an absolute as has been mentioned.
- That post contains no less than 16 first person references by its author
- beet1e's idea of 'smart flying' is being timid.
As can be seen from the above, the rebuttals against my findings have degenerated into arguments over semantics. Is "no-one" an absolute, or could it be figurative? Is an account valid only if written in the third person, but not in the first person? I see that the first person references have actually been counted in an attempt to add validity to the rebuttal! :lol
...and there would be guys like akak, jumping on the bandwagon before the last wheel falls off, trying to balance the weight and keep the thing rolling - somehow. I could post a film of me fighting alone against about 4 spits and a yak and getting 6 kills in less than 12 minutes (no gondolas 109). But whatever material I would present, akak's closed mind tells him that "beet1e flies timid". I could fly that P51 and get kills, and someone might dismiss it as "timid flying" or "flying carefully" or "those were not "fights". The word "fight" would be tossed around, as certain guys (and they know who they are) searched for new definitions to apply to the word, at the same time discarding others.
Let's stick with the FACTS - 91%! That is the number to remember - of the top 100 is made up of Big3 drivers... but go ahead - cling on to that other 9% - because it's all you've got. Oh but wait, I'm talking about FACTS here, not theory or opinion or conjecture. You wouldn't understand... because your minds are already made up.
What a cracking thread! I have so enjoyed taking part. Going through those stats was a slog, but worth it in the end. Worth it to me, and for anyone else who was interested in the FACTS.
But now it's time to unsubscribe -
Toodle-Pip
:p
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i don't believe anyone ever questioned your contention (http://www.dictionary.com) that the majority of top 100 ranked fighters make use of the "big-3 subset."
not at all. nope siree bob.
i believe the argument on the table was that it was impossible for anyone to get there without resorting to using them.
now as for the challenge. i think any of the ones you think have as hard-coded precepts as to your particular style as you think would be more than likely to at least recognize an effort made. at the same time your own precepts of these planes might be amended somewhat. you have nothing to lose, much to gain.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Poopster...
I hate to be the one pissin' in your teapot....but, from the getgo, HT intended for AH to be more that an air combat sim. Ask him about submarines or the "1st person shooter" field captures he would like to implement some day.
As for what the thread is about (sri, I was coat-tailing the hijacking :D)....playing for score is silly. Anyone that hasn't figured that out yet has my sympathy. At the "end of the day", if you are playing for score...you're just jerkin' off :).
I play for safe landings, to be honest...if I escort a goon in and land w/ no kills, thats just as good as landinf kills. K/D is what I'm after, for a cose second.
If greater attention were paid to safe landings, and not kills, or rank, the game would be much more fun. folks would have to learn to fly smarter (and no, I don't mean just faster).
Gainsie
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I used to be a score ho and now im reformed i would get sooooooo friggin mad it made the game really suck now i i try and "learn" from the aces by watching films and engaging them and "hopefully" giving them somewhat of a fight i was really proud of myself the day i lasted a whole 3 maneuvers against wildthing LOL and i prefer playing this way ang going against laviathin, wildthing, ack-ack,yucca ,shane steve even lazer in his dang 38
guys i can ussually tell who im fighting now cause the moves i've been watching and trying to learn are used against me to a far superior extent and then revewing the film to correct my mistakes. in the past i got pissed at some and for that i apologize it was the score ho demon talking guys hope to be more of a challange in the future
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hi beet-
pretty sure the majority of players in that top 100 could've made it with sub-par planes.
pretty sure the MA could be a great 24/7 epic battle with no running and timid and unimaginative wusses and all, whatever, but it's not, and for the same reason, as other strange phenomena one might pick up on and make long boring threads that prove nothing about.
The common point is this is all a game, and only a small part of the population in it is tied together by the common interest of continually challenging themselves to the most, and even in this small lot there isn't a majority as to what the 'best' way to challenge oneself is. As this is just a game, it's all quite.. moot, and while you have some guys taking it to the absolute end, some just stop caring, for one reason or another, and at some point it eventually returns to being dismissable as the game it is, i.e. the path of least resistance, i.e. mass M3 goon drops from spawn, absurd ganging of one low and slow con, Lancaster suicide jabos etc, whatever the result, epic CV furball or not, losing a duel without caring because your motivation for a good fight isn't in it anymore to feed your concentration, even tho you might've found a jewel somewhere in that mess of a stick your opponent is.
Most of the top 100 could probably make it with watermelon planes while the rest of the arena stuck to the best ones, but they probably don't care for the effort of(or) tactical changes required.
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Only posted because many have asked how to lower rank. Too many of you think game has to be played your way. I will always answer any question anyone asks of me in game. From how to bomb to what plane is best for job at hand. Many guys in here love to blow stuff up.
There is no reason to keep scoreing tips a secret. Nobody in top 20 can be there with out doing exactly what i posted.
small facts you can't get a hit % over 1200 unless your dropping only 4k bomb out of lanc's or ju87 bomb on strat. only thing that gives you high point s and Hit% is strat.
you can not be in gv top unless you hit strat and camp once in a while.
only fighter is on its merit. But then again shooting CHUTES increases hit % lol.
Skuzzy LOCK this will ya
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I wonder what this game would be like if there was no scoring or ranking system? hmmm?
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How come the fighter rank under "Pilot ranks" doesn't match the fighter rank "Pilot score"?
For instance, Fester is ranked as the #3 fighter pilot under Pilot ranks, however, if you look at his score his fighter rank is #19.
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Originally posted by sickbird
How come the fighter rank under "Pilot ranks" doesn't match the fighter rank "Pilot score"?
For instance, Fester is ranked as the #3 fighter pilot under Pilot ranks, however, if you look at his score his fighter rank is #19.
The time of your post happens to coincide with the time of day when the ranks are computed. I assume you were looking at it while the days new score data was being processed. You probably just happened to be looking during one of the rare times that the data wasnt completely posted to the web portal.
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I have nothing to say, just want to help this thread hit 500 replies.
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I see my problem, by default rank displays the CT Tour rank. I was comparing apples to oranges.
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roght sickbird, you have to hit "Get rank" button again is all.
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Just had to be a part of this epic thread, however I have nothing to add to it whatsoever.
Have fun :)
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Ok man my name on aces high is ridenlow i could use alot of help at the 30k bombing technique so if you would i would like your help.
thank you
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Originally posted by TheManx
Just had to be a part of this epic thread, however I have nothing to add to it whatsoever.
Have fun :)
Ahh, I see. One of the selfish guys that wont share his secrets.
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Lol, don't look at me Murdr every time I've ended up even in the top 100 fighters it's been completely by accident. Turnfighting spits in 38's and Typhoons isn't condusive to being added to this post in any manner other than a spectator I'm afraid.
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:rolleyes:
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Manx (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=15) Steve (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=16) :)
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Originally posted by TheManx
Lol, don't look at me Murdr every time I've ended up even in the top 100 fighters it's been completely by accident. Turnfighting spits in 38's and Typhoons isn't condusive to being added to this post in any manner other than a spectator I'm afraid.
Manx!
Where ya been? WW2OL still?
anyways... good to see ya still kickin ;)
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Still hanging out in WWIIOL but mostly dealing with the Canadian springtime. There's not many times lately that the flu hasn't hit someone in the family it seems. I'm also dealing with getting a product release implimented on a client site this weekend, so I haven't had much time for anything over the last week. I did stop into Aces High briefly this week though, had a great time but I'm most definitelly out of practice.
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Seems like everything is going well then. Glad to hear it.
I'll be lookin for ya on line. I am in the midst of putting a new sys together so alot of my time lately has been devoted to that... AH2 here I come ;)
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score whroe are pathetic. but i love killing them.
but honestly i do try really hard on the first day of each tod to get a high rank.
but after that first, disapointing, heart wrenching, multiple dying day, i give up and go looking for mass destruction of myself and others
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I am shooting for the Highest Rank of all this tour.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
I am shooting for the Highest Rank of all this tour.
LOL.. you are pretty rank already! :p
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You are rank, no matter the score.