General Forums => Open Beta Test => Topic started by: GuyNoir on January 23, 2016, 04:03:12 PM
Title: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: GuyNoir on January 23, 2016, 04:03:12 PM
I've been messing around with the beta, and I think it looks great. It's a real step up from Aces High 2, and you guys are doing great work.
Unfortunately, just like in AH2, the game comes close to giving full support for 3D tech, but it's still not quite there. I think that with 3D goggles like the Oculus Rift and the Vive coming out soon, 3D support is more important than ever.
The beta doesn't have much wrong with in that regard, but the problems really mess up the whole experience.
The main problem in AH2 and the beta is that the virtual gunsight is not out on the horizon; it's up against your face. In 2D, it looks like it's out there, but it's not. So, in 3D, when you're trying to aim at something way out in front of your plane, you get two copies of the gunsight on either side of your nose, and it's impossible to aim (just like if you held your finger up in front of your face and got two see through copies on either side of where you're looking). If you could somehow push the 2D plane of the gunsight out to the horizon, it seems like it'd fix the whole problem.
The other big problem I saw in AH2 (but not in the beta since I haven't actually seen another plane yet) is that the badguy (plane, tank, whatever) is way out in the distance, but his icon is again right up against your face. Also, it's butted right up against the enemy plane so it's hard to focus on either the plane or the icon.
Also, In the beta, when you pull up the clipboard, it sits correctly physically in front of you, but the mouse pointer is sitting way behind it, so it's really hard to click on anything on the clipboard since you have two copies of the pointer. Strangely, when you modify your keyboard control mapping, the interface and the mouse sit on the same plane correctly.
Pretty much all of the physical stuff in the game looks amazing using my 3D glasses; it's just some of the 2D stuff like the gunsights and the pointer that really mess it all up.
Like I said, though, the new beta is looking fantastic! Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on January 23, 2016, 04:10:50 PM
What program are using to drive the oculus? I happened to be working with it this afternoon at home.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: GuyNoir on January 23, 2016, 04:33:30 PM
Sorry, I don't have the Oculus. I have a pair of nVidia 3D Vision 2 glasses with a BenQ 3D-ready 120Hz monitor. It seems like the effect would be the same, though I can't say for sure.
That's great to hear that you've got an Oculus, though! Sounds fun. :)
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: GuyNoir on January 23, 2016, 04:45:42 PM
Here's a mockup I made in Photoshop of how the gunsight looks in 3D. It's not quite the same, since you can focus on the sight with your eyes making everything else out of focus, OR you can focus way out on the enemy plane, and your gunsight is out of focus. It makes it pretty hard to shoot, though...
(http://i.imgur.com/H16uZ4f.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Wraith_TMS on January 23, 2016, 07:33:14 PM
What program are using to drive the oculus? I happened to be working with it this afternoon at home.
HiTech
Sorry for butting into this conversation--I don't own a Rift but I follow VR closely--anyway, in this VR-related thread from the Hardware & Software forum, Vulcan mentions that he used Opentrack to emulate TrackIR type head-tracking with his Rift DK version and AH. I've read elsewhere that others have used VorpX to do the same thing. Vulcan would be the best source for how he tweaked those Opentrack settings, of course:
Yes, you use OpenTrack to emulate trackir inputs - and it is scalable. I have mine running at 120:180 (ie 120 degrees gives a 180 degree input).
I can play AH for hours on end, no VR sickness. So the experience will vary from person to person. That said I have great sealegs (when I was young I used to kayak in storms for fun), never get sick on violent flights (usually fall asleep), and I've been playing AH in VR for around 10 or so years. If you're a pansy who cannot handle a childrens rollecoaster VR is not for you :devil
One of the more interesting things you come (as mentioned before) is the size of the cockpits. Even in fighters you notice the cramped cockpits (spitfire) versus ones where you can really move your head around (typhoon).
This is AH on the Rift DK1, I had issues with the tracking as NZ has some funky magnetic stuff going on, so I augmented the tracking with a Hydra. The tracking in the DK2 is way better (uses motion/magnetics/optical).
HT, the Vive and the Rift consumer versions are fully 6-DOF headtracking-capable now (using embedded LED's), and their developer SDK's have been optimized to allow developers to program their games for this. Here is OculusVR's documentation page, with info for developers: https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/ (https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/). Maybe that will serve as more grist for the mill.
FWIW,
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on January 23, 2016, 07:51:57 PM
I use VorpX (for the image modification) and Opentrack for the headtracking.
VorpX does NOT currently support 3D in AH or the AH Beta (you get the same image for each eye).
HT stop teasing me. I am gonna be in Dallas Feb 22nd :)
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: fracca on January 24, 2016, 02:12:25 PM
Tridef for 3d injection and opentrack. If you are not using it for 3d, why use Vorpx at all? Just use opentrack and punt straight to the rift, thats what I was doing for a while.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on January 24, 2016, 02:15:06 PM
Tridef for 3d injection and opentrack. If you are not using it for 3d, why use Vorpx at all? Just use opentrack and punt straight to the rift, thats what I was doing for a while.
That does not make sense. Tridef does not support the DK2. The Rift requires modification of the image (warping and dual images), you cannot just "punt it straight to the rift".
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: fracca on January 24, 2016, 02:41:40 PM
Tridef works for dk2 just fine, at least it did 6 months ago. I should really hope so as well considering it is made by one of the Oculus staffers. And if you go a bit deeper into your oculus knowledge you will remember the rift has a 2d mode, which indeed means you can punt anything you display on a monitor straight to the rift. Either that or I have been dreaming playing AH with my oculus.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: fracca on January 24, 2016, 02:48:37 PM
And so I'm not rude, just in case you genuinely didnt know, 768x1024 I believe is 2d mode, I'd have to get mine out to check, but its thereabouts. And the rift will do for you automatically what you are using vorpx for.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on January 24, 2016, 04:03:10 PM
Tridef is made by... Tridef. AFAIK they have not been acquired by Oculus. They ceased updates to the Rift support in July 2014: https://www.tridef.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3907 . Some tridef users have managed hacks to get tridef to recognise the DK2, but there have been challenges with resolution and correct warping.
The native Rift resolution is 1920x1080. If you enable the Rift as a screen (has to be pre-0.8 SDK) then it usually appears as a 1080x1920 landscape screen.
When a game runs on the Oculus it must render two images on that 1920x1080 screen (ie 960 x 1080 each). If you do not split the images you will get a single image split in half across each eye that will give you a headache.
The rendered images must be warped for the Oculus lenses. If you do not warp the images you will get some strange fisheye effective.
As of SDK 8 on the Rift there is no longer a separate Rift monitor.
Games must support the Rift natively and do this themselves (games such as Elite Dangerous or DCS) - typically these use "Direct to Rift Mode". The game itself will render two images in either 2D or 3D.
If a game does not support the Rift natively then 3rd party drivers such as VorpX or Virieo can be used. Note not all games work with these drivers so you can get mixed results.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with what you posted.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: GrandpaChaps on January 24, 2016, 04:43:58 PM
Sorry for butting into this conversation--I don't own a Rift but I follow VR closely--anyway, in this VR-related thread from the Hardware & Software forum, Vulcan mentions that he used Opentrack to emulate TrackIR type head-tracking with his Rift DK version and AH. I've read elsewhere that others have used VorpX to do the same thing. Vulcan would be the best source for how he tweaked those Opentrack settings, of course:
HT, the Vive and the Rift consumer versions are fully 6-DOF headtracking-capable now (using embedded LED's), and their developer SDK's have been optimized to allow developers to program their games for this. Here is OculusVR's documentation page, with info for developers: https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/ (https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/). Maybe that will serve as more grist for the mill.
FWIW,
From what I understand, (please be kind and explain the basics, BASICS) O.R. won't work because of the type of graphics AH uses. Correct or no? At least that's what I understand based on the last version of the game.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: fracca on January 24, 2016, 04:45:32 PM
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with what you posted.
Not sure why you're sorry, (or even if what you wrote was actually intended for me considering it's two steps down from what we were talking about).
As far as tridef is concerned, I believe it is, (or was) created and by Cybereality, who is the board moderator over at oculus, so its nothing to do with oculus buying out tridef or anything like that. I dont think tridef is as big an operation as you seem to think. Whither or not they still support dk2 as I said I havent looked for 6 months, so I'm not disputing that. However I do have some buddies who still use tridef on dk2 for arma and they haven't mentioned any problems. (It may be a case of rolling back drivers). Regardless, I shall admit I'm not up to date with tridef, but it DID work for sure, so just find older versions.
All the info you posted about the rift is kinda true, but you did omit to mention the 768x1024 mode (which incidentally was a hidden easter egg according to cybereality that i thought everyone knew about), which changes the way the picture is presented within the rift. Which is the only thing I actually said, and is the thing you apparently disagree with. It was made specifically so you can see your desktop inside the rift without all those warping and headache inducing split image problems you mentioned. You could save yourself a lot of time just by enabling it yourself to see what I'm talking about.
And yes the newest rift drivers have disabled extending to the rift, however considering more than half the applications haven't been upgraded to use the new drivers, and most of the people who actually have a rift right now are developers anyway, i believe everyone is just using the runtime switcher. (Which again is over at oculus forums).
So I guess I accept your apology?
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on January 24, 2016, 10:51:35 PM
Nah, I disagree with you. But I'm not going to waste HTCs bandwidth arguing the point.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: fracca on January 24, 2016, 11:38:27 PM
Just put the rift to that resolution and check it for yourself dude... It's not like it isn't a 5 minute verification, and it isn't really open to philosophy.
EDIT:And at first I was really happy to see at least one more VR pilot in AH but damn you made me sad.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: GrandpaChaps on January 29, 2016, 10:26:49 AM
Thanks for the info, I'm watching Rift quite a bit. Awesome potential there.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on January 29, 2016, 10:43:39 AM
HT, if you're using the beta with the Rift, is that the unit you plan on possibly having the most/first/only/etc compatibility with for the future AH game? Can you offer any info on the other units coming like the Steam one which could be popular as well being maybe compatible in the future?
I'm just trying to get a sense for what the best unit to buy would be if a AH player can only buy ONE headset out of the 3 or 4 that could be popular for other games. Is the Rift the best bet to plan on?
Thanks in advance, it's cool you're working with this VR tech already.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on January 29, 2016, 10:54:31 AM
HT, if you're using the beta with the Rift, is that the unit you plan on possibly having the most/first/only/etc compatibility with for the future AH game? Can you offer any info on the other units coming like the Steam one which could be popular as well being maybe compatible in the future?
I'm just trying to get a sense for what the best unit to buy would be if a AH player can only buy ONE headset out of the 3 or 4 that could be popular for other games. Is the Rift the best bet to plan on?
Thanks in advance, it's cool you're working with this VR tech already.
I haven't made any plans about what to support.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Mister Fork on January 29, 2016, 01:39:03 PM
HT, if you're using the beta with the Rift, is that the unit you plan on possibly having the most/first/only/etc compatibility with for the future AH game? Can you offer any info on the other units coming like the Steam one which could be popular as well being maybe compatible in the future?
I'm just trying to get a sense for what the best unit to buy would be if a AH player can only buy ONE headset out of the 3 or 4 that could be popular for other games. Is the Rift the best bet to plan on?
Thanks in advance, it's cool you're working with this VR tech already.
+1 on that. Like Gman, waiting to see which one makes the most sense from a platform perspective.
Question hitech - how did you enable support for the TrackIR? Was it overly complex or simple? Would these VR devices operate in the same manner as TrackIR?
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on January 29, 2016, 04:36:56 PM
Ok thanks HT. I think a lot of AH players will probably wait until they know if/what HTC will support before committing to a VR thing - I don't really know of any games I'm hot to trot to use it with yet, other than this one, so I want to get the one that will be best suited here, if VR is used at all in the future.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on January 30, 2016, 04:06:56 PM
+1 on that. Like Gman, waiting to see which one makes the most sense from a platform perspective.
Question hitech - how did you enable support for the TrackIR? Was it overly complex or simple? Would these VR devices operate in the same manner as TrackIR?
Google Opentrack, it takes the Rift DK1/DK2 headtracking data and emultates FreeTrack/TrackIR and other sutff. it's fairly easy to setup, and most importantly lets you scale inputs (HT if you do natively support Rift please remember to allow some sort of input scaling. 1:1 is hard on the neck).
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Pudgie on January 31, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
Got the occulus working on our test engine yesterday.
If we do support it I am fairly sure you will have to run a 4.4 driver version.
HiTech
...and how was it? :x
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Wraith_TMS on February 09, 2016, 02:55:10 PM
If any of you need to gear up for AH3 and want a consumer-version Oculus Rift too, this _might_ be worth a look-see. I posted this in the Hardware & Software discussion:
Got the occulus working on our test engine yesterday.
If we do support it I am fairly sure you will have to run a 4.4 driver version.
HiTech
I really REALLY recommend looking at Elite Dangerous, they've nailed what a VR in game experience can be like. I think AH is already one of the better games to use with VR, especially the way the clipboard menu works. Room for improvements are those little bits of info that sit in the corners of the screen - you can never really see/read them in a rift.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on February 11, 2016, 02:21:14 PM
Room for improvements are those little bits of info that sit in the corners of the screen - you can never really see/read them in a rift.
Yea I noticed that when I got it working.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Kirin on May 04, 2016, 07:17:49 AM
Exciting news!
I got a HTC Vive two weeks ago and I love it. I love it so much that I actually got rid of my TrackIR setup. That being without having any optimal simulation VR experience yet. I mainly fly in DCS these days which has native Vive support. But the engine is very hardware demanding and getting 90FPS is currently almost impossible. But even with the frame loss and the intermittend jerkiness the presence is unbelievable. You ARE in the cockpit. Flying around and landing is much easier as you can judge distances naturally. I can land a Mirage on 1 wheel if need be.
Somewhere on reddit I found a blurb that HTC is actually considering adding VR support. That made me run here immediately. I just cannot step into a 2D cockpit anymore. And a Aces High comback in VR would be beyond amazing!
I hope AH is moving into that direction! I will lurking in the shadows for sure.
Kirin out
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Owlblink on July 05, 2016, 12:29:59 PM
Curious, has anyone else played around much with the HTC Vive in Aces High and had success?
Any VR support would be good and I think/hope HiTech is smart enough to get behind it and at least support the two leading competitors.
That being said, I'm mostly atracted to the Vive and I believe supporting it would give HiTech a boost in active players if they were to market the game through Steam (we could really use the increase in player numbers in the arenas as they are far below where they once were).
I see a gain in profits for HiTech and even more fun for us patrons down the VR avenue.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Skuzzy on July 05, 2016, 12:39:21 PM
The currently released Beta DX11 executable (Patch 29, ahbeta11.exe) has support for the HTC Vive and Oculus Rift. We do not link that to the desktop. You will have to execute it from the Windows Start menu, or by navigating to the game installation folder.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: terrydew on July 05, 2016, 09:04:20 PM
Got the occulus working on our test engine yesterday.
If we do support it I am fairly sure you will have to run a 4.4 driver version.
HiTech
Are you referring to the oculus runtime version? If not, what does 4.4 refer to? If so, not sure you can go back to previous versions as it auto updates! Also if you are working with the cv1 on the same machine as the Vive, I had had issues with both connected.
Terry
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Skuzzy on July 06, 2016, 06:58:24 AM
That post was from February. A lot has changed since then.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: terrydew on July 06, 2016, 07:30:20 AM
Sorry I didn't notice the date.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 08, 2016, 06:08:03 PM
Who here (I know Vulcan is) is running VR with AH/Beta right now? I just got my confirmation email for my Vive that it's finally shipped, and the Rift they told me should be in less than 10 days - I passed on the used ones I had lined up as you get NO warranty as the 2nd owner by both companies, so as a PSA please be aware of this with used ones.
Anyone using either headset for AH3 - can you give me an intel dump on what settings are best (the new "hack" notepad 2.0/etc and so on settings you can edit now for the Vive), and so forth for the Beta. Very interested to try this with Aces High in addition to the other flight/space sims. Built new systems w/1080s mainly for VR, and want the details/settings to be optimal when I use it.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 14, 2016, 09:50:30 PM
Got both the Rift and the Vive, set the Vive up first, and after getting it working in some other games, gave the Beta a whirl.
Pretty impressive, I have the Vive set to 2.5 pixeldensity/SS/whatever using the notepad mod of the steamvr settings file in Steam controls, not sure if it has any effect on Aces High Beta, but it looks as good as other sims/games in terms of graphics.
The hand controller interface is pretty click, a lot of future potential with these things IMO. I do find that the aircraft icons/ranges disappears as soon as the plane is 2.0 or so out in the HUD, but I'm sure that's just early days stuff, or that I have the wrong size setting in GUI or something - it's really the only thing I noticed that jumped out at me. Just flying around, looking around, is a pretty good wow factor, and this is my first day with the Vive/VR and I don't have everything optimally set up yet I think. 89fps with everything but the reflections cranked, it's two notches from the bottom, which is the headset limit, so no complaints about fps or anything. I couldn't figure out what the TrackIR setting in the VR options does, tried playing with it on and off, didn't seem to make any difference, just something I haven't read/'figured out yet I'm sure.
The Rift is better in other sims/cockpit games I've heard, we'll see tomorrow I guess, but I'm pretty impressed so far as early impressions with the Vive in AH beta.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on July 15, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Got both the Rift and the Vive, set the Vive up first, and after getting it working in some other games, gave the Beta a whirl.
Pretty impressive, I have the Vive set to 2.5 pixeldensity/SS/whatever using the notepad mod of the steamvr settings file in Steam controls, not sure if it has any effect on Aces High Beta, but it looks as good as other sims/games in terms of graphics.
The hand controller interface is pretty click, a lot of future potential with these things IMO. I do find that the aircraft icons/ranges disappears as soon as the plane is 2.0 or so out in the HUD, but I'm sure that's just early days stuff, or that I have the wrong size setting in GUI or something - it's really the only thing I noticed that jumped out at me. Just flying around, looking around, is a pretty good wow factor, and this is my first day with the Vive/VR and I don't have everything optimally set up yet I think. 89fps with everything but the reflections cranked, it's two notches from the bottom, which is the headset limit, so no complaints about fps or anything. I couldn't figure out what the TrackIR setting in the VR options does, tried playing with it on and off, didn't seem to make any difference, just something I haven't read/'figured out yet I'm sure.
The Rift is better in other sims/cockpit games I've heard, we'll see tomorrow I guess, but I'm pretty impressed so far as early impressions with the Vive in AH beta.
The Icon issue is a bug.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 15, 2016, 10:16:05 AM
I figured that, or that it was just I had them set too large, like I said, no big deal, and it was the only thing that I noticed that was odd at all, which is pretty incredible considering it's only been weeks since VR has been integrated into AH. Flying it this morning, with the pixel density turned up to 2.5 in the Vive's steam config file - it's truly amazing where this could go.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on July 15, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
I figured that, or that it was just I had them set too large, like I said, no big deal, and it was the only thing that I noticed that was odd at all, which is pretty incredible considering it's only been weeks since VR has been integrated into AH. Flying it this morning, with the pixel density turned up to 2.5 in the Vive's steam config file - it's truly amazing where this could go.
I like the vive controllers, but I like the Oculus CV1 much more for desk top flying with a normal Joystick. It's drivers and interpolation for low frame rates is very impressive.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 15, 2016, 11:40:04 AM
Just trying the Rift out right now - it's better IMO in cockpit type games, beta here for sure too, it's fantastic sitting down with this thing - I can actually easily peak out the bottom and see the keyboard if I need to, but I don't notice it when flying and looking at the lens. This is really going to be something else fighting and flying in VR. The Rift is well worth the $ too so far.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on July 15, 2016, 11:46:47 AM
Just trying the Rift out right now - it's better IMO in cockpit type games, beta here for sure too, it's fantastic sitting down with this thing - I can actually easily peak out the bottom and see the keyboard if I need to, but I don't notice it when flying and looking at the lens. This is really going to be something else fighting and flying in VR. The Rift is well worth the $ too so far.
Go fly formation with a drone using the CV1.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 18, 2016, 04:58:54 PM
Quote
Go fly formation with a drone using the CV1.
If I could swear on this bbs I would - holy crap HT. This is something everyone needs to see for themselves IMO. So impressed, the wow/immersion factor - Rift CV1 gets the nod from me right now, but holy effballs is the Vive good too. For flying though - Rift is amazing.
I remember doing articles about the first version ever of AH, and how impressive the view system and adjustments available were. HT/HTC is THE guy(s) to make VR work in combat IMO. There is such future potential for this tech, it's good now, in a few more years I think monitors may go the way of the trackball did for PC gaming. It's that good.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 18, 2016, 11:20:36 PM
So so sick, AH players, this is just my opinion, but if you play this game, and DCS as well, buy the Rift right now, hands down. Vive has potential, but the viewing experience is superior in both of the "big" sims (AH for MMO/WW2, and jets DCS IMO). The value for the cost is there - hands down. I can see so much potential and what's coming already, but it's fun as he-double hockey sticks already, and playable IMO already/very shortly too. Rift can be set up on your desktop even if it's small, takes about 1/10th the time the Vive does, and is THE VR unit for cockpit games. I'm not knocking the Vive, it has great strengths that could be taken advantage of for sim games shortly as well, but for sims right now, driving, flying, space - Rift is where it's at. I don't understand the backend, but HT said the drivers/etc are far better now for the Rift, and it shows on the front end, which I can plainly see and appreciate.
Good times.
Buy one. You won't be sad.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on July 19, 2016, 03:07:34 AM
...and how many years have I been ranting about VR in AH!
:old:
Comon HT say it... say "Vulcan was right"
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 19, 2016, 02:09:14 PM
Funny, the first thing I thought of was Vulcan, and his solitary VR posts over the years, and how I and others probably just read it, and thought "meh, sounds ok or whatever", and moved on. Truly, the tech, first gen in terms of mass market that it is IMO, is THERE, both units and the open source that is coming IMO will be able to give a truly playable experience and a pretty damn good one too. It's truly incredible and needs to be seen first-hand, as the YT videos and screen shots don't do it justice at all.
I'm no HT, but I'll happily say it - Vulcan was right, and now with really decent units available - the Razer open source unit being very cheap too - Vulcan was really, really right.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Mister Fork on July 19, 2016, 03:11:40 PM
I have a Rift DK2 and I also have to agree that flying with Aces High Beta is AMAZING. Though the resolution of the DK2 is somewhat sketchy - I do enjoy even the crappy resolution...I've been wondering if I should just cut out and put a mesh in the bottom of the RIFT so I can see the keyboard easily...but that's just for typing into the buffer chat... all my other airplane functions are mapped to my HOTAS.
So the CV1 it is then eh Gman? I'm curious to the exact differences between VIVE and the Rift from a play-ability.
Next up - try the Beta in bomber formation...
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on July 19, 2016, 03:20:52 PM
Hows the GUI working in general for you? Have you both mapped a JS button to perform left click functions?
Also Gman ,please turn on your xbox controller and try it.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on July 19, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
It's truly incredible and needs to be seen first-hand, as the YT videos and screen shots don't do it justice at all.
I reckon FSO will be a good source of videos when AH3 gets released.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Easyscor on July 19, 2016, 08:59:57 PM
Reading all these I think you have a new name, not AH3, but Aces High VR.
:uhoh
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 20, 2016, 01:44:48 PM
HT - I haven't mapped a JS button to mouse click, but I'll try that today. I don't know that I really need it myself, but I will set it up today for test purposes, I've just been using the regular mouse by "feel" and it works fine for me. I can navigate around the GUI/clipboard, move the chat/radio boxes, and all that very well IMO. The clipboard I do find is hard to get facing completely flat in some of the places I put it, but I think this is just my lack of familiarity, as is the majority of my messing about so far.
Regarding head placement in the cockpits, is that something that can be moved around like in the regular monitor/non VR part of the game? IE can you pick a specific spot you want as your "baseline" head position, and I just haven't figured out how? The zoom feature in the Rift works fantastic, unlike the Vive, at least for me, but in other games, this is a common Vive issue I've found too. I much prefer the Rift in AH beta as well as other cockpit/driving games, for certain.
I turned on the Xbox controller, and it didn't recognize it, but I forgot that I probably need to map it in controllers, am I right? I'll try it again later today and post again.
It's truly amazing flying around, not even shooting anything, but just observing the world around yourself, from inside the cockpit to out the windows.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on July 20, 2016, 02:07:40 PM
HT - I haven't mapped a JS button to mouse click, but I'll try that today. I don't know that I really need it myself, but I will set it up today for test purposes, I've just been using the regular mouse by "feel" and it works fine for me. I can navigate around the GUI/clipboard, move the chat/radio boxes, and all that very well IMO. The clipboard I do find is hard to get facing completely flat in some of the places I put it, but I think this is just my lack of familiarity, as is the majority of my messing about so far.
Regarding head placement in the cockpits, is that something that can be moved around like in the regular monitor/non VR part of the game? IE can you pick a specific spot you want as your "baseline" head position, and I just haven't figured out how? The zoom feature in the Rift works fantastic, unlike the Vive, at least for me, but in other games, this is a common Vive issue I've found too. I much prefer the Rift in AH beta as well as other cockpit/driving games, for certain.
I turned on the Xbox controller, and it didn't recognize it, but I forgot that I probably need to map it in controllers, am I right? I'll try it again later today and post again.
It's truly amazing flying around, not even shooting anything, but just observing the world around yourself, from inside the cockpit to out the windows.
You could simply set a new head center with Ctrl F4, I.E. Center VR when entering the plane.
If it saw the controller, when you entered the game there should be a 3d object of the controller showing what is mapped. Did you pair the controller?
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 20, 2016, 04:21:35 PM
It was there, I just hadn't set it up in the control panel/controllers setup in game. I set up the axes/etc - you know what, the game is actually pretty playable with the xbox controller, I could shoot VERY accurately, I was surprised at how good those little thumbsticks work. All the stuff worked well with it.
As for the clipboard - it must have just been that time I was using it, as now it's flat as it should be, and looks great, easy to move around and so on.
Again, I'm really surprised at how good the xbox controller works in the game, I'd never have guessed that it would work so well as a flightstick. I'm going to set up the other stick for views and try it again later.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on July 20, 2016, 04:29:57 PM
It was there, I just hadn't set it up in the control panel/controllers setup in game. I set up the axes/etc - you know what, the game is actually pretty playable with the xbox controller, I could shoot VERY accurately, I was surprised at how good those little thumbsticks work. All the stuff worked well with it.
As for the clipboard - it must have just been that time I was using it, as now it's flat as it should be, and looks great, easy to move around and so on.
Again, I'm really surprised at how good the xbox controller works in the game, I'd never have guessed that it would work so well as a flightstick. I'm going to set up the other stick for views and try it again later.
Btw I am considering a change to the view system, Right now the view override the vr, I was think of simply stacking the vr on top of the view. So pressing left would simply turn your body, then the VRs fwd view would simply be left.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 20, 2016, 05:07:55 PM
I think that'd be a really good way to incorporate the view system, at least IMO. With relation to quick viewing needed for combat/keeping track of the enemy, I think it's a great solution.
That cntrl +f4 command, is that an "Aces High" command or a "Rift" command that works in any Rift game - works like a charm.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on July 20, 2016, 09:56:20 PM
Btw I am considering a change to the view system, Right now the view override the vr, I was think of simply stacking the vr on top of the view. So pressing left would simply turn your body, then the VRs fwd view would simply be left.
HiTech
A gentle remind about view track scaling (ie 140 degrees IRL = 180 degrees in game stuff). With Opentrack and AH2 I can check 6 without needing an orthopedic surgeon afterwards.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on July 21, 2016, 03:11:53 PM
I'm not sure if there is a setting in the Vive/Rift controllers coming in the future, or if it is on the game developers to figure out, but some sort of head track scaling would be massively beneficial for air combat games where you need to look behind you and around your views quickly. Right now, checking 6 in VR in a whole host of flying games is essentially a no-go, or at the very least extremely difficult. HT's idea a few posts up, if I understand it right, would mean that the ability to look behind you and other directions quickly and easily would be solved without having to set up some sort of scaling, by letting the player use key/stick buttons to look in a direction as without VR, yet then have the VR just pointed/looking where that keypress view put you. At least that's what I think it meant, and I for one think that would work in lieu of TrackIR-like scaling curves in VR.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Vulcan on July 21, 2016, 04:08:31 PM
I use OpenTrack with AH2 - it provides scaling. I don't see what the big deal is.
When you look behind you three components of your body are typically used, your shoulders, your neck, and your eyeballs. VR does not allow for eyeball movement to be taken into consideration. It forces you to try and move your neck and body more than you would IRL.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 16, 2016, 11:03:02 PM
Bit of a bump, but I see you've incorporated the hat view system with VR now HT. This if fantastic for VR players, and gives them a fighting change vs trackIr/hat/keypad view users, as you can now quickly use your thumb hat on the stick to look at angles that are very difficult and take a long time in VR to get your eyes/head to.
Is there a way to reverse the way the VR set looks, example if I look left or behind say, when I move my head in VR it feels like the movement is opposite, ie if I look back, and turn my head left, it moves right, same with viewing right/left. I think I'm just missing a setting.
Also, is there a way to have the mouse control with the clipboard back, or does the player have to use the head movement with the VR "dot" in the Rift to move the "cursor/dot" around.
Huge addition to VR, once I get it figured out more, it'll make all the difference in the world for dog fighting in VR.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: FLS on August 17, 2016, 12:06:21 AM
What I'm seeing with VR with hat views is the view moves with your head movement so you can't look around while using the hat views. It's disorienting. What I'd like to see is the hat temporarily re-centering your view to each direction but still letting you move your head position and look around.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Zimme83 on August 17, 2016, 12:29:52 AM
I have one of those 3D screens.. (http://media.chicagojournal.com/photos/Publication/Article/532-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 17, 2016, 01:33:17 AM
Yes FLS, but did you notice the views move backwards as well, ie left goes right, right goes left? That's what I'm getting. If that is changed and the movement given more "sweep" or scale or distance, whatever you want to call it - it'll be perfect. In any case, it's a huge stride in the right direction, DCS sure doesn't have anything like this, and that's why guys with VR get SCHOOLED by non VR players in online h2h fights. Big time.
How you describe it is optimal too IMO, but I'm sure HTC knows this already, it's early days, and HT JUST said the other day he was considering this and it's here and working in an alpha level already. Now unlike VR in other flight/fight games, you'll actually have a chance to win fights in VR, again, once it's optimized a bit more. If it gets to where you described it FLS, in fact I think it'll not be a hindrance at all being in VR in terms of keeping sight of targets while using it. Very exciting. I was really surprised to see it functioning as much as it is already, very happy this is being implemented, otherwise it'd been a "bomber/etc" only deal in VR online for me, as pvp in fighters you would be dead meat vs a trackIR/non VR pilot. I flew around in VR for a couple hours offline tonight - it's going to be the future, maybe it'll take years, but it's GOING to happen IMO, so much potential, and such a fantastic feeling.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Bizman on August 17, 2016, 01:53:06 AM
Gman, I can't help you but I'm interested.
Do you mean that the landscape moves faster than your head? Looking front right or left producing a right or left 90 degrees view? Similar to TrackIr where small head movements do a lot on the screen?
If so, such enhancements don't sound like they'd add immersion. Even worse, an accelerated view combined with the balance organs working at normal speed may cause nausea or balance problems after taking the VR goggles off. I may be wrong, though.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 17, 2016, 02:23:55 AM
Here is what is happening, and what I interpret from what HTC said regarding this before.
With VR in flight sims now, it's very, very difficult to look behind you, even looking 90 degrees to the side requires a radical head/body movement. It's far, far slower than TrackIR or thumbhat/numpad, to the point that VR play would be at a massive disadvantage.
So, what HT is trying to implement (again, all my interpretation, not his per se or necessarily accurate/correct), is that the same VR view you get looking straight ahead, can be added to each of the various hat views. IE if you push thumb left/look left, you'll get the same view as anyone NOT in VR is getting, but the scene will be IN virtual reality, and you can look around a bit just as you do while looking forward. What I suspect is HT is just deciding/tinkering on just how much, if any, looking about one can do while in VR and in a non-frontal view.
It isn't disorienting at all, not for me in the slightest, it's just like having a VR unit going, and being able to look around as you did at your monitor in terms of the thumbhat/numpad and lcd interface when using the various look directions. The view isn't "accelerated" as it is in TrackIR, it's just "combined", if you so choose to use them, with the thumbhat/numpad view system. You don't see the view quickly flip by to "look left" if you move your thumb left, as it happens in TrackIR, if you have "instant view" set, it'll instantly flick to the 90/rear/etc view you select with your hat, but just be in VR mode still. It's fast, and not disorienting nor does it affect immersion at all, at least for me.
In terms of the "landscape" moving faster than my head, no, it's not really like that, I'm referring to the scaling. If you use TrackIR, you'll know that you can scale just how much your head movement corresponds to the screen movement, ie make less head movement = far more in game/screen turning than reality, so that just a look to say your 11 o oclock in your seat = looking right behind you. What HTC has started to do with this new VR view implementation IMO is just to add that type of advantage to VR gaming as well. IE instead of being locked into 1/1 movement, instead of scaling the head movement in VR, which would be difficult or maybe even not possible, I'm not sure, is to give the VR player the ability to combine the hat view system with VR, a sort of combination of both methods, sort of like putting VR into the hat system I guess.
I guess bottom line is this: move hat to get VR viewpoint in corresponding hat direction immediately, while still holding head forward and not having to crank your entire body/head around to see beside or behind yourself. IMO it's the best compromise/combination we can get, and as I said, I know other sims with online servers are screaming for this type of idea, as you are at a massive disadvantage in fights with standard VR vs TrackIR/thumbhat. I wish I could demonstrate just how badly in person, if i stuck either VR unit on anyone, and then fought them with just trackIR/hat, prior to what HTC has started to try and do, you would not be able to keep me in sight worth poo, and would die very, very quickly, regardless of how good you are outside of VR. It just takes far too long and is too uncomfortable and slow to try and keep a target in your forward view while in VR the standard way. Now, once this new way is fine tuned a bit, IMO it'll be nearly an equal playing field.
It's very important too, as VR is going to be a big future in all games including this one, yet if VR players were to be at a big disadvantage in fights, it would be a large negative to have to combat, and would create complaint threads beyond anything yet seen, especially once VR costs come down and it becomes mainstream, which is only 2 or 3 years away IMO. HTC is well ahead of this issue, it's impressing that they've ID'd this as a future potential big problem, and I think their solution is by far the best option, and once it's matured and been tinkered/tuned/etc, will at worst not be an issue to keep people out of VR and potentially the game itself, and at best be the standard for the entire online/pvp flight sim genre.
edit - I'll try and make a video of this to show instead of tell, again, this is a critical feature/issue for VR and future VR players, which will be many, it's inevitable.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Bizman on August 17, 2016, 02:45:23 AM
"Scaling" - that's the word I was after. I can understand it might not affect your inner ear when looking horizontally, but vertically flipping the world upside down by slightly raising your chin sounds disturbing, especially when flying low. Then again, who am I to tell, I haven't used any of the head movement based controllers.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on August 17, 2016, 09:48:00 AM
I have not worked on the implementation view change to VR. The change would be that when you move the hat switch, it would select your current forward view. I.E. if you press left it would be like you turned your body left. Your VR would then track from that home position.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 17, 2016, 09:53:16 AM
THat's what's happening on my end with Rift now - I can press a hat view and it moves my VR view to that view - that wouldn't happen before, I just thought you had implemented it since you had last mentioned it. Maybe just something in the latest GF drivers is letting the hat work while in VR, as I'm sure it didn't before the latest beta update. It works pretty good in dogfights too, I can press look up, the most important button for me in fights, and easily pick up my target and then get into "plane" with him and pull to get him into the sight.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on August 17, 2016, 10:31:26 AM
THat's what's happening on my end with Rift now - I can press a hat view and it moves my VR view to that view - that wouldn't happen before, I just thought you had implemented it since you had last mentioned it. Maybe just something in the latest GF drivers is letting the hat work while in VR, as I'm sure it didn't before the latest beta update. It works pretty good in dogfights too, I can press look up, the most important button for me in fights, and easily pick up my target and then get into "plane" with him and pull to get him into the sight.
Yes the views are working but not like i wish them to, when selecting a view your head does VR does not modify the view. My new method would let you move and rotate your head from the up view. I.E. change to like you were laying on your back and moving your head.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 17, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
Great, that's exactly what I was hoping how it would work.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Wiley on August 17, 2016, 10:59:33 AM
Are you planning on having the hat views starting point customizable, like the normal hat views? I believe that would be best so you don't have to constantly shimmy around obstructions like the plate above the F4U's seat, for example when you press the "up" button.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: terrydew on August 17, 2016, 11:23:41 AM
We finally get a technology that moves us much closer to reality and we want to dumb it down to make it easy? With VR you should have to do the same thing the real pilots did, lean up turn your body to look back. I know I will be in the minority, but I would much rather have a separate arena for just VR if the disadvantage bothers you. You have to have scaling for trackir because your eyes have to be able to see the monitor which is not the case with VR.
IMHO Terry
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Wiley on August 17, 2016, 11:32:16 AM
We finally get a technology that moves us much closer to reality and we want to dumb it down to make it easy? With VR you should have to do the same thing the real pilots did, lean up turn your body to look back. I know I will be in the minority, but I would much rather have a separate arena for just VR if the disadvantage bothers you. You have to have scaling for trackir because your eyes have to be able to see the monitor which is not the case with VR.
IMHO Terry
So... don't use it?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: FLS on August 17, 2016, 11:52:50 AM
I have not worked on the implementation view change to VR. The change would be that when you move the hat switch, it would select your current forward view. I.E. if you press left it would be like you turned your body left. Your VR would then track from that home position.
HiTech
So if I look up with VR and use the hat back view I'll be looking at the back up view while holding the rear view? And I can still move side to side to look around the headrest when I lower my gaze with VR? That would be good and save some neck strain. Even if the hat only did left, right, and back, it would work. :aok
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 17, 2016, 12:21:06 PM
Yes I tried TiR relative mode, no real change with it on or off from what I can see.
Regarding the whole "but it isn't realistic" argument against this in VR - if you don't want to use it, you won't have to, just happily use your VR without touching the hat/kp view keys. If you ever tried VR though in game, you would instantly see how it's a huge disadvantage in fights due to the nature of the beast. VR users could easily counter argue and say that those who use hat views get "unrealistically" fast and simplified movements, and HTC should limit the speed at which the head turns using the hat/kp, to make it "realistic", if you're using the "realistic" argument regarding VR.
The way HTC is planning to do it is by far the best solution still IMO, and again, if you are concerned about realism, VR users won't be forced to use hat views I don't think, and can just choose to not use them, and continue on with regular VR head movement capability.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: FLS on August 17, 2016, 12:42:17 PM
If you move your head forward and to the side before you look back with the hat, and add an up button, you can check 6 pretty well but if you look around it's disorienting and it's harder to track bandits.
You can also turn your head to look back, recenter your view, then face forward comfortably while scanning your rear view, then recenter again to regain your default front view.
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: hitech on August 18, 2016, 04:34:25 PM
The new VR view key method works well and was a lot less work then I anticipated.
HiTech
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: bustr on August 18, 2016, 05:20:42 PM
Are computers and the game at a point of putting in a rear view mirror?
Title: Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
Post by: Gman on August 18, 2016, 06:58:37 PM
HT probably has an idea Bustr, I know another jet game has mirrors, but they suck performance more than any other option. Also, IMO the mirrors would only really be of good use for if/when you get bounced from behind, in a fight, you need to look up and back/up more than anything else, with left/right being important on defense for pointing your wing at the opponent, so I don't find the mirrors all that useful when on the offense or in a fight. Again, in a straight level situation where you get totally surprised, maybe for that. Just my opinion.
Really happy that the VR/hat view combo will be coming, anyone using VR knows that fighting non VR players will put you at a really big disadvantage, but not now. It is a really important issue IMO so far as adding new players who will want to use VR - DCS VR is super, super popular, and it surprised me how many forum/game users have moved to it, however all of them know that online PvP due to the lower res in VR (right now) and the nature of not being able to move your head nearly as easily or quickly as trackIR/thumbhat means you spot targets for slower and it's far harder to keep them in sight in a twisting fight. AH having icons, and now a future VR/hat combo view capability, has this entire problem taken care of already really. I know it hasn't really come up here, but that's because the game isn't live, if it was, every VR player/user would be sqawking if they didn't have this new feature, because they sure are over at the jet game, and it doesn't have the online/pvp competitiveness that AH has, not by a mile.