Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Banshee7 on September 06, 2012, 11:07:56 PM
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Ok, here's a debate/discussion for you guys.
For one of my history classes, I had to watch A Bridge Too Far and write a 750 paper on it answering the following question: Do you blame the failure of Operation Market Garden on British arrogance and poor planning or stiff German defense? Why? You cannot ride the fence and say it was a combination of the two. You may not do any outside research--base your answer solely off of the movie.
For my paper, I blamed Bristish/Allied arrogance and poor planning. From what I gathered from the movie, this operation was to be larger than D-Day and any other invasion, yet it was only planned in three days. Some of my points included the fact that it was scheduled to be a mass, daylight air drop behind enemy lines, denying the skill/power of the German forces after seeing reconassaince photos of German armor, and the sole fact that it was planned in such short time that they obviously did not have everything in order.
So, based on your knowledge of Operation Market Garden, what do you blame the failure of Operation Market Garden on?
#S#
Josh
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I blame Hollywood. Some of the casting was the standard "Who's Hot Now" thing.
Oh....number A then.
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I blame benard montgomery. Basically his goal was breach a path into Germany and over the Rhine. it wasn't the German defenders that were anything of a problem - He ignored intelligence from dutch resistance fighters, ignored the weather, ignored supplies - allies just captured antwerp.
Market Garden was a terrible risk, I don't think any combat commander would of made. Normandy had the German's spread ALL over France, there was a small margin of error but acceptable, Market Garden however was a very small area of operation.
D-day I believe was a seriously unacceptable risk, however given it was a fortune of war the German's did not release everything it had at normandy - was the only reason it came out successful.
Market Garden was far to high of a risk in my book, I never understood why the allies simply didn't keep pushing instead of trying to jump so far ahead. The Germans were not beaten at this point - it was estimated at least one million soldiers still existed on the west. It was a gamble that simply didn't pay off.
In my personal opinion I could not understand why Monte pressed Market Garden so hard, I believe his persuasion of Eisenhower and seriously poor planning lead to the complete failure of this operation.
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151)
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... history class ... You may not do any outside research ... base your answer solely off of the [dreadful] movie.
you're kidding? :huh
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British Arrogance :)
You win some you lose some :)
Narzzies surrendered to Montgomery in the end, they were still trying to negotiate as well, daft heads. :rofl
How embarrassing having the whole of Europe and then having nothing :rofl
Starting two wars and losing two :rofl
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Before this thread goes any further, your question is a contrived dichotomy, your history class isn't, and this topic is inherently revisionist and offensive.
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Before this thread goes any further, your question is a contrived dichotomy, your history class isn't, and this topic is inherently revisionist and offensive.
Shida likes soft fruit :)
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you're kidding? :huh
it's a movie report, not different than a book report.
I blame benard montgomery. Basically his goal was breach a path into Germany and over the Rhine. it wasn't the German defenders that were anything of a problem - He ignored intelligence from dutch resistance fighters, ignored the weather, ignored supplies - allies just captured antwerp.
Market Garden was a terrible risk, I don't think any combat commander would of made. Normandy had the German's spread ALL over France, there was a small margin of error but acceptable, Market Garden however was a very small area of operation.
D-day I believe was a seriously unacceptable risk, however given it was a fortune of war the German's did not release everything it had at normandy - was the only reason it came out successful.
Market Garden was far to high of a risk in my book, I never understood why the allies simply didn't keep pushing instead of trying to jump so far ahead. The Germans were not beaten at this point - it was estimated at least one million soldiers still existed on the west. It was a gamble that simply didn't pay off.
In my personal opinion I could not understand why Monte pressed Market Garden so hard, I believe his persuasion of Eisenhower and seriously poor planning lead to the complete failure of this operation.
agree with butcher but with one addition. the british got slaughter because their tanks had orders to not move unless they had infantry with them. it was basically a matter of British officers not willing to accept a deviation of orders. as opposite to the american officers who when given an order would do anything to accomplish it. and by that i mean the american officers would just round up the nearest soldiers and go accomplish their mission. the British officers on the other hand wouldnt risk anything to accomplish their mission.
that is why the american officer was yelling at the British tank commander who told him they had orders to not move unless they had infantry. so the british were slaughters at arnhem. same reason why the resupply planes ignored signals from the ground and dropped their supplies over german held territory.
it was a grandiose (is that a word? i am drunk) mission made just to make the british general happy. it failed and a lot of good soldiers died for no reason. It was eally a waste of men and materials.
semp
semp
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British general happy :rofl
fantastic :)
Books are good if you read them :rofl
"Masters and commanders" is a very good one, it describes the relationships between the Allied commanders and leaders. :rofl
The British Army elites disliked Montgomery, he had a odd idea of sacking people in the field if they were poo :rofl
Patton go a lot of grief as well I believe :)
The Narzzies got owned :rofl
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Bernard Law Montgomery's arrogance, as well as his overly optimistic and ambitious planning. The two primary factors were his willingness to completely ignore valid intelligence that strong German units with good commanders were in the area, and his ludicrous position that 30 Corps could make that run in that short period of time. Third would be dropping so many of the British airborne troops and assets so far from their objective, and fourth would be the delays in getting the Polish units in. Montgomery made up his mind to go ahead prior to getting the full intelligence reports, in fact, he'd made up his mind that the operation go ahead whether anyone else thought it possible, and managed to get Eisenhower to allow it.
Montgomery was also one of the key commanders who thought that the December 1944 Ardenne offensive was not possible and that the Germans would not try it even if it were. It was Patton who not only said the Germans could do it, but that they would do it. He also had a plan for a counter offensive before the Germans attacked. But it was Montgomery who was allowed by Eisenhower to take command, and who came in "like Christ coming to cleanse the temples" (as a few of the commanders stated). But it was Patton who Eisenhower turned loose with his plan to relieve Bastogne. And it was U.S. units already in the area that held the Germans at key points. Montgomery tried to take credit for stopping the German offensive in order to repair his image after his unmitigated Market Garden disaster.
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Arrogance, Poor Intel (Didn't know 9th Pnz was in area refurbishing),
Poor communications , Poor planning.
Guess he didn't know the 7 P's
Prior, proper planning prevents piss poor performance :aok
:cheers: Oz
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British arrogance, poor planning, failure to heed intelligence warnings.
I wrote a research paper on this freshman year of college if you ever want some more info, Banshee.
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Before we go on a huge "British bashing" campaign.
I would just like to say that the British actually did link up with both 101 and 82nd using one road using British Infantry and Armor. And TOOK Arnhem bridge initially and prevented them from laying DEMO on it. All the while with bad radio equipment and little support.
German resistance was heavy, VERY heavy. Crack Panzer divisions being reformed from the Russian front. SS Divisions. The whole damn thing. Not to mention 2 field Marshals and 3 generals all of which with both experience and close relations with Hitler allowing for preferential treatment in terms of support from Germany.
I would hardly call it "Brits being cocky". Britain was perhaps arrogant, but even then, if it HAD been old men and children.... it would have worked. I think that German resistance played more of a role than Britains arrogance.
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No keep British Arrogance thing going :) (Shameful behaviour)
Maybe the Germans and French could put a bit more effort in the Middle East.
There have been enough of our boys defending democracy with their lives.
General Marck Clark was a American?
Rommel was a traitor?
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Before we go on a huge "British bashing" campaign.
I would hardly call it "Brits being cocky". Britain was perhaps arrogant, but even then, if it HAD been old men and children.... it would have worked. I think that German resistance played more of a role than Britains arrogance.
Its not a British bashing campaign, General's take risks - this was a risk to punch a door open into Germany - quite a few factors simply made it fail from the beginning.
The arrogance part about it is Monte claimed the operation was a success, when in fact it was quite opposite.
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Virgil
"Unlike the American airborne divisions in the area, British forces at Arnhem ignored the local Dutch resistance. There was a good reason for this: Britain's spy network in the Netherlands had been thoroughly and infamously compromised — the so-called England game, which had only been discovered in April 1944. Perhaps assuming that the Dutch resistance would be similarly penetrated, British intelligence took pains to minimize all civilian contact."
British paratroopers weren't the only ones dropped too far from there objective.
"The decision to drop the 82nd Airborne Division on the Groesbeek Heights, several kilometres from the Nijmegen Bridge, has been questioned because it resulted in a long delay in its capture."
It didn't help that Ike wanted a 'broad front advance' against all German forces which diverted supplies and manpower away from M-G.
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I've researched this issue multiple times and the first thing anyone needs to remember is that as are judging, Operation: Market-Garden, with the luxury of hindsight. This goes for ALL historical events. Remember that.
To be forced to pick one or the other (fault of British of tenacity of Germans), is a bit harsh because there were hundreds of variables in the entire campaign that could have swayed the outcome. Would the Poles have made a difference if they had not been delayed? Etc etc. This is a fun topic to debate and discuss, but I highly suggest that instead of watching a Hollywood movie made for entertainment called "A Bridge Too Far", to instead read the book written by Cornelius Ryan of the same title. I do not believe the "arrogance" of the British was represented accurately in the movie (or even in the book), there are many sources that claim that the intelligence admitted not knowing that there was an SS Division "refitting" outside of Arnhem. They did know there were remnants of something, or more probably a Volksturm (militia) made up of 2nd rate troops (older or otherwise disqualified from military service). Those intelligence reports and corresponding analysis were not made of arrogance but more so of "quid pro quo" rubber stamp reaction. Which ever route one wants to go (British failure or German success), the operation was genius (lay a carpet of paras and send the armor over top), and if the 30th would have been able to make it to Arhem in time the outcome would have been different, the "Bridge Too Far" would not be a term we all so quickly would identify. :aok
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Its not a British bashing campaign, General's take risks - this was a risk to punch a door open into Germany - quite a few factors simply made it fail from the beginning.
The arrogance part about it is Monte claimed the operation was a success, when in fact it was quite opposite.
"Quite opposite" is not how I would look at it one bit. No, the ultimate goal was not achieved but there were many other ramifications that occurred because of the thrust the British armor made during that operation. The Germans had to pull lots of other resources to plug the new "front", that had am impact on operations down south more than we'll ever be able to measure. In the big picture I think it was certainly not a failure, just not a complete success. Topics such as this have too big of a gray area to be so specific.
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Battle was lost before it even started..
Yes there was British Arrogance of the same kind that
resulted in the Somme Slaughter..
Not listening to the intel on the ground, and the whole Radio
Commo botch job, just sealed the deal..
Both SS Hohenstoufen and Frundsberg were in the area Refitting..
They landed right on top of them.. Case closed..
I will say, they did very well getting as far as they did.. But
overall, this was like the German Ardennes Offensive..
Doomed from the start!
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The Operation is what it is, we can't change the out come - its still a "Bridge to far". I always enjoyed the tasteful arguments on market garden, one of those few topics in history of WW2 that has so many holes you can easily fight a debate about.
/camping in a GV isn't so bad when you can throw a few questions out and get a chat going while you wait :)
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"Quite opposite" is not how I would look at it one bit. No, the ultimate goal was not achieved but there were many other ramifications that occurred because of the thrust the British armor made during that operation. The Germans had to pull lots of other resources to plug the new "front", that had am impact on operations down south more than we'll ever be able to measure. In the big picture I think it was certainly not a failure, just not a complete success. Topics such as this have too big of a gray area to be so specific.
My god someone who reads books :old:
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Was General Mark Clark arrogant? :old:
Or should we ignore that one, because he was American. :old:
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Monte would have made better use of the Airborne Forces by using them
to clear the estuary islands blocking the way to Antwerp Harbor..
Thus Relieving the Supply Strangle coming from the Normandy Beaches!
DUH :bhead
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Was General Mark Clark arrogant? :old:
Or should we ignore that one, because he was American. :old:
If Monte was American then you can blame the american's, but in reality the operation is what it is.
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My god someone who reads books :old:
I've read lots of them and written many papers on the subject matter. I actually earned an informal degree (recognized by my Alma mater only) in WWII. I had two professors on a regular basis for a multitude of military classes that had either taught at West Point or the Citadel, and neither were satisfied with mediocrity or simplicity when I was researching WWII (much of my studies were independent). They were the hardest B's and C's I ever earned (never did earn an A), but the knowledge I gained and the ability to take what I learned away is immeasurable.
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Monte would have made better use of the Airborne Forces by using them
to clear the estuary islands blocking the way to Antwerp Harbor..
Thus Relieving the Supply Strangle coming from the Normandy Beaches!
DUH :bhead
You should go on an be a General's Chief of Staff, you is smart. :lol
Hindsight is wunnerful, isn't it. :aok
That point has been made before, but there was enough data showing that the Germans in Antwerp were on their last bit of supplies, they had been cut off for how long by the time Market-Garden took place? Ultimately, the momentum was going fast enough for all things considered (except for Patton), that Antwerp would have not mattered either way. :) I think using he paras as they were was almost as perfect as they could have been. That is my opinion. :salute
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Hindsight is wunnerful, isn't it. :aok
That point has been made before
Well, all these points have been made before, I haven't seen anything new, from you either..
Hindsight??? Well, Monkey was the "Field Marshal", and one would think looking at the map
he could SEE THE OBVIOUS..
Sun Tzu, called it "foresight", you would think a "Field Marshal" would have it..
But Monkey was too busy Glory hunting, trying to be the first into Germany..
Got lots of elite troops killed for his vanity..
Truly, he isn't the only general that did that in the war.. Lots of others!
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I've read lots of them and written many papers on the subject matter. I actually earned an informal degree (recognized by my Alma mater only) in WWII. I had two professors on a regular basis for a multitude of military classes that had either taught at West Point or the Citadel, and neither were satisfied with mediocrity or simplicity when I was researching WWII (much of my studies were independent). They were the hardest B's and C's I ever earned (never did earn an A), but the knowledge I gained and the ability to take what I learned away is immeasurable.
Books are fun :)
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:salute I'm curious zack are you a brit? I'm wondering how the brits view the operation? and saying that following the guide lines from the tread. :cheers:
if i said any thing about mark clark it would be hijacking the thread. so.... :devil
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Well, all these points have been made before, I haven't seen anything new, from you either..
Hindsight??? Well, Monkey was the "Field Marshal", and one would think looking at the map
he could SEE THE OBVIOUS..
Sun Tzu, called it "foresight", you would think a "Field Marshal" would have it..
But Monkey was too busy Glory hunting, trying to be the first into Germany..
Got lots of elite troops killed for his vanity..
Truly, he isn't the only general that did that in the war.. Lots of others!
Ego! Indeed The Title speaks for itself. Jumping too far ahead of your supply lines and support.
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"British Arrogance" is disrespectful.
Films in America are used as educational tools irrespective and factual evidence.
The General Mark Clark note was a retort to the disrespct shown in said thread.(what did he do?) :)
"Patton" was one of the few films which tried to attempt to be historical.
I don't refer to films for historical education.
While in the attic looking for my "Normandy To The Baltic" book I found a old ST290, the book is very good as well, contains some excellent maps.(12 corp,30 corp,8 corp)(1st airbourne div etc
Books:)
(I also found my Cromwell book by John Buchan) :)
Wikiaidiot :)
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The battle of Arnhem had been designed to gain us quickly and at relatively cheap cost a bridgehead beyond the Rhine(or Waal) and Lower Rhine(or Neder Rijn).It had to be taken with resources which left very little margin for insurance of success in view of the remarkably rapid recovery of the enemy.
The battle of Arnhem was nighty per cent successful. We were left with in posssession of crossings over four major water obstacles including the Mass and the Waal, and it proved a vital factor in the subsequent development of operatoins, culminating in crossing the Rhine. Full success at Arnhem was denied us for two reasons; first, the weather prevented the buildup of our airborne forces in the battle area; second, the enemy managed to effect a surprisingly rapid concentration of forces to oppose us.
Bernard Law Montgomery K.GG.C.BD.S.O "Normandy to the Baltic " PAGES 148 ,149"
I have noticed with the Americans in threads are very reluctant to take criticism but willing to insult other nationalities.
"A Bridge too Far" or "Pearl Harbour" were films made to make money for film companies and nothing else as a piece of educational material they are poo.
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I was not trying to start anything with this. I simply stated what the assignment was and asked for your opinions. That is all.
#S#
Josh
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Highlights the high esteem films have in the American education system :old:
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I'm not a student of military history but from my dilettantes perspective it seems like the ratio of successful to inept commanders is something like 1 to 3. I suspect this occurs for two reasons; the first is that the skills to get the job are not necessarily the skills to do the job, the second is that it is hard to tell except in retrospect whether the balance of traits like aggressiveness to recklessness is good or not. The question I would ask is if failures like Market Garden or Korea (I recommend The Coldest Winter) are inevitable which is why you'd better be d... careful about going to war. US Grant's greatest attribute was his willingness to fight and use up lives. This got the job done, would he have been a great general in ww1? or would he have been one of the incompetents? Similarly MacArthur is considered a great general of ww2 but his arrogance led to the Korean disaster. The landings at Inchon could be considered a gutsy master stroke or excessively risky, history's treatment depends a lot on the outcome not the risk involved. If Market Garden had been a success would it be another Great Battle or would it be considered reckless and unnecessary.
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I just wanted to add that if we look at intelligence reports now we know whether they are accurate where as at the time you would not know that and one of the traits of a successful commander is to make decisions despite incomplete and contradictory information. The question of being right or wrong seems like it is more about art than science and probably a dose of luck. I would say it might take a smidgen of arrogance to send people off to die on the basis of your intuition and on the other hand if you wait around for everything to be clear you will have lost.
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may i remind everybody that the paper is supposed to be on what happened in the movie and based on the movie only.
semp
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Highlights the high esteem films have in the American education system :old:
John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. :old:
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John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. :old:
James Stewart :)
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The Operation would have been more successful had John Wayne led it.
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The Operation would have been more successful had John Wayne led it.
What about Al Pacino?
(http://coronacomingattractions.com/sites/default/files/news/scarface_al_pacino_little_friend.jpg)
Then again don't think there was enough coke in Europe to handle him..
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John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. :old:
yeah too bad he only fought in the movies. he actually never served.
semp
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More german resistance than initially known. I suspect it would have succeeded had there not been 2 divisions of crack troops there.
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What about Al Pacino?
(http://coronacomingattractions.com/sites/default/files/news/scarface_al_pacino_little_friend.jpg)
Then again don't think there was enough coke in Europe to handle him..
More german resistance than initially known. I suspect it would have succeeded had there not been 2 divisions of crack troops there.
Crack Troops no good? :D
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The Operation would have been more successful had John Wayne led it.
:aok
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In the end Ike signed off on Market-Garden.
The relationships and egos involved in the Allied Command is a research project of it's own. Monty very much continually pushed the idea of a single ground commander, which he of course saw would be him. It eventually lead to some incredible friction that almost lead to the break up of Allied Command when Ike got to the point he was going to make the Joint Chief's choose between he and Monty. Monty's Chief of Staff got wind of this from Ike's Chief of Staff and was able to put out the fire, which was by finally getting Monty to realize that he was never going to run the whole show with the majority of the fighting being done by US troops and the majority of the supplies coming from the US.
This was post Market Garden during the Battle of the Bulge.
But Ike did have Monty continually pressing for a single thrust instead of Ike's preference for a broad front. And of course you had the egos of Bradley, Simpson, Patton and others to sooth as well. When Monty was given the go ahead on Market Garden, it basically stopped those other guys in their tracks for lack of supplies.
Also understand that the battle of egos was not a British vs American thing, it was individual generals. Air Marshall Tedder who was head of Allied Air Forces in Europe for Ike, was British and he wanted Monty sacked more then once. Beddel-Smith who was Ike's chief of staff spent a lot of his time working with Monty's Chief of Staff to keep Monty in the game. Monty's big fear was that he would be replaced by Alexander, who was in command of British forces in the MTO. It was when he finally realized that was a serious possibility that he finally quit pounding on Ike to appoint a single ground commander.
All that being said, in his quest to lead the single thrust and be the first over the Rhine and into Germany, Monty oversold the plan and ignored much of the intel and the British Airborne guys paid the price.
Ike had the final say however and he signed off on it, so it can't be laid completely on Monty either. My impression has always been that the Brits have been far harder on Monty about Market Garden then the Americans, in particular the British Airborne guys who got hung out to dry.
Cornelius Ryan was one of my favorite authors when I was really getting into the WW2 history stuff back when I was a kid. I wrote a report on "A Bridge Too Far" and Market Garden in high school. Jeez that was a long time ago :)
The book is far better then the movie, although at the time, the movie did take things up a notch in terms of trying to make it look right.
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John Wayne is our Greatest Combat Veteran. :old:
Clint Eastwood would smoke John Wayne. :neener:
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bah ... David Niven! :old:
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Clint Eastwood would smoke John Wayne. :neener:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRwIs9hfYAo :old:
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Virgil
"Unlike the American airborne divisions in the area, British forces at Arnhem ignored the local Dutch resistance. There was a good reason for this: Britain's spy network in the Netherlands had been thoroughly and infamously compromised — the so-called England game, which had only been discovered in April 1944. Perhaps assuming that the Dutch resistance would be similarly penetrated, British intelligence took pains to minimize all civilian contact."
British paratroopers weren't the only ones dropped too far from there objective.
"The decision to drop the 82nd Airborne Division on the Groesbeek Heights, several kilometres from the Nijmegen Bridge, has been questioned because it resulted in a long delay in its capture."
It didn't help that Ike wanted a 'broad front advance' against all German forces which diverted supplies and manpower away from M-G.
The British intelligence people, Urquardt in particular, had photo recon that showed Panzer units in the area, never mind what the Dutch Underground told them.
What Market Garden was short of (other than good common sense) was planes to put all the airborne troops in as quickly as possible. Since the 101st and the 82nd were involved in Market Garden, what Eisenhower had going on following Operation Overlord was not taking the assets they needed away from Market Garden. Apparently 30 Corps had all the armor they could possibly hope to get up the road to the bridges. "Not enough supplies and manpower" is an excuse, and a poor one, it is not a reason.
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A Bridge too Far :D Love that film, it has a fantastic cast
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British theory.
The Brits had long felt that all efforts and resources should support a deep thrust all the way from Normandy to the Rhine. As this thrust penetrated deeper German defenses would natural retreat to avoid the potential of being enveloped. The Brits felt it would cause the whole front to collapse. Tradition said brooad based attack with numerous surgical strikes supporting regional activity.
Market Garden demonstrated the difficulty of the former theory.
Boo
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yeah too bad he only fought in the movies. he actually never served.
semp
He was of far greater value in the movies. While serving is good, it is not everything.
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I'm wondering how the brits view the operation?
I think it was a bold tactical gambit to shorten the war with a more intelligent approach than simply wearing the Germans down. A bold plan and Montgomery was bold enough to try it and bold enough to fail.
Montgomery was a National hero and a tactical genius. This man took a rifle bullet in the chest in the Great War and survived and was decorated for conspicuous gallantry for clearing an enemy trench with a bayonet attack. Meanwhile Adolf Hitler cowered in his trench finger painting and writing to mummy about his struggle to mix the proper shade of poo-brown.
Sun Tzu fought small scale engagements which he directed from the rear while sipping Earl Ghey tea and wearing a gingham dress and army boots :old:
We know you Americans dislike Montgomery, this opinion notably originates in reaction to his post-war vocal criticism of aspects of American command. Previously your nation chose to honour him therefore rather adding weight to Zack's point.
Same business with the continual comments towards the French being cowards. This is ignorant, ill-informed, inaccurate and disrespectful. If you are going to revise history to support current policy then you can expect the ramifications of increasingly becoming isolated and divergent in policy, culture and doctrine from the other nations in the world.
If you are asked to review a film then your class is Media Studies and not a History class. If you are unable to gather and analyse data for yourself and are satisfied assimilating what is packaged, pre-processed and presented for you then what use is all the 'freedom' you keep banging on about?
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bah ... David Niven! :old:
naw Roger Moore would smoke all of them fools. he fought from ww2 all the way to wild geese. but if you go for a good looking guy that wasnt too afraid, I would say the scene with robert redford crossing the river was the most memorable along with the "would you like some chocolate, it's very good.."
semp
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Was thinking of the scene in "Band of Brothers".. When the 101 Sergeant is on the fender of the Lead British XXX Corp tank, (a Ronson), tellin him there is a Tiger behind the house up the road... Brit tanker looks hard thru his Binocs, says "I can't see it"..
The American Paratrooper tells him, "Put a couple shells into that house, you'll see him just fine!".. Brit Replies, "My orders say,
No inordinate destruction of Private Property!".. So he rolls down the road, and the tiger wastes him.. Good Oh!
:bhead
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I would carry on this argument but I cannot fight what is obviously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI
^^^
THIS. Mentality. Which is the only mentality the youth of the USA have.
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Was thinking of the scene in "Band of Brothers".. When the 101 Sergeant is on the fender of the Lead British XXX Corp tank, (a Ronson), tellin him there is a Tiger behind the house up the road... Brit tanker looks hard thru his Binocs, says "I can't see it"..
The American Paratrooper tells him, "Put a couple shells into that house, you'll see him just fine!".. Brit Replies, "My orders say,
No inordinate destruction of Private Property!".. So he rolls down the road, and the tiger wastes him.. Good Oh!
:bhead
Is this fellow up here representative? He cannot distinguish fictional entertainment from reality. Prejudice shapes the media which in turn shapes prejudice. :old:
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Is this fellow up here representative? He cannot distinguish fictional entertainment from reality. Prejudice shapes the media which in turn shapes prejudice. :old:
Well, it is a true account from the Guy on the Tank Fender, he is still alive to tell the tale..
Not for long tho!
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Montgomery was not liked by the British establishment during the war and after the war, as has been stated in his Memoirs using cricket as a euphemism "The Gentlemen are out and the Players are in".
He also got accused of damaging a French property by shooting a pig that was running around his HQ, by someone in Whitehall. (During a battle)
He was informed that a replacement officer was good at golf and he replied we are not playing golf, this was the state of the British Army at the time.
British Arrogance?
How many people adding to this thread are from those countries fighing the Allies during the war? (They must be laughing their spuds off).
Disrespecting a country that fought by your side to defend democracy then and now, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Well, it is a true account from the Guy on the Tank Fender, he is still alive to tell the tale..
Not for long tho!
'Band of Brothers' is a fictional dramatisation loosely based on factual events, not a documentary. You can verify this easily. Even if this anecdote is absolutely true and unaltered (and somehow I doubt that), how does it generalise to make a commentary about the British Army or the British people as a whole? You look for evidence to support your prejudice and furthermore seem very easily satisfied.
I agree with Zack, that you can be so disrespectful to a national hero of one of your most steadfast and reliable allies is beyond my comprehension and certainly beyond good taste and common decency.
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'Band of Brothers' is a fictional dramatisation loosely based on factual events, not a documentary. You can verify this easily. Even if this anecdote is absolutely true and unaltered (and somehow I doubt that), how does it generalise to make a commentary about the British Army or the British people as a whole? You look for evidence to support your prejudice and furthermore seem very easily satisfied.
I agree with Zack, that you can be so disrespectful to a national hero of one of your most steadfast and reliable allies is beyond my comprehension and certainly beyond good taste and common decency.
So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe. Albert Blythe saw the sniper, but did not shoot him. The sniper shot Blythe in the collar bone, not the neck. Albert Blythe did not die in 1947, but in fact died nearly 20 years later of a heart attack. He was a decorated sergeant at the time of his death, having served with distinction for more than 20 years, including a tour in Korea.
Montgomery, and the British, have earned the scathing comments. They've made plenty of their own, especially those by Montgomery himself. Before you offer up your sermon about how we should hold our allies in such high regard, you might give it to the British first.
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It was a sound plan. Monty's goal was to force an entry into Germany and over the Rhine. He wanted to dodge the northern end of the Siegfried Line and this required the operation to seize the bridges across the Meuse. This would ultimately allow the Allies to encircle Germany's industrial heartland in the Ruhr from the north. Initially, the operation was successful and several bridges between Eindhoven and Nijmegen being captured. Until XXX corps got delayed at a canal outside Eindhoven that is.
At Arnhem, the British Airborne Division encountered far stronger resistance than anticipated, Dutch resistance intel couldn't be 100% trusted due to cases of compromise, and photo recon was not sufficient or definitive to back up any Dutch resistance claims, but did trouble planners (just not enough to delay the operation any further). In the Arnhem battle, only a small force managed to hold one end of the road bridge and after the ground forces failed to relieve them, they were overrun eventually. The rest of the division, trapped in a small pocket west of the bridge, were evacuated. So the Allies had failed to cross the Rhine.
One can't ever put it down to Arrogance of any sort unless you happen to be an absolute moron playing that anti-British propaganda that seems to be in circulation of late.
Every side every General has failures; Maisy Battery, Defence of the Philippines, Pearl Harbor to name but 3 US failures (2 of them down to intel). Would they be filed under American Arrogance in jest?
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So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe.
So you are proposing The Band of Brothers should be considered a body of historical record and not a piece of dramatised entertainment using artistic license and based on the research and selected interviews of one man?
Montgomery, and the British, have earned the scathing comments. They've made plenty of their own, especially those by Montgomery himself. Before you offer up your sermon about how we should hold our allies in such high regard, you might give it to the British first.
It would be unrealistic to ask for 'high regard', let's face it, you can't even achieve a basic level of mutual respect.
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Montgomery, and the British, have earned the scathing comments. They've made plenty of their own, especially those by Montgomery himself. Before you offer up your sermon about how we should hold our allies in such high regard, you might give it to the British first.
[/quote]
Arrogant British is racist :old:
Its akin to saying Americans are loud :old:
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It was a sound plan. Monty's goal was to force an entry into Germany and over the Rhine. He wanted to dodge the northern end of the Siegfried Line and this required the operation to seize the bridges across the Meuse. This would ultimately allow the Allies to encircle Germany's industrial heartland in the Ruhr from the north. Initially, the operation was successful and several bridges between Eindhoven and Nijmegen being captured. Until XXX corps got delayed at a canal outside Eindhoven that is.
At Arnhem, the British Airborne Division encountered far stronger resistance than anticipated, Dutch resistance intel couldn't be 100% trusted due to cases of compromise, and photo recon was not sufficient or definitive to back up any Dutch resistance claims, but did trouble planners (just not enough to delay the operation any further). In the Arnhem battle, only a small force managed to hold one end of the road bridge and after the ground forces failed to relieve them, they were overrun eventually. The rest of the division, trapped in a small pocket west of the bridge, were evacuated. So the Allies had failed to cross the Rhine.
One can't ever put it down to Arrogance of any sort unless you happen to be an absolute moron playing that anti-British propaganda that seems to be in circulation of late.
Every side every General has failures; Maisy Battery, Defence of the Philippines, Pearl Harbor to name but 3 US failures (2 of them down to intel). Would they be filed under American Arrogance in jest?
Forcing XXX Corps to advance up a single axis isn't really the soundest plan. Both Brits and Germans proved to be VERY
tenacious on the defensive.
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Germany lost the war.
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Germany lost the war.
(http://www.superiorsilkscreen.com/665-712-large/oh-snap.jpg)
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Forcing XXX Corps to advance up a single axis isn't really the soundest plan.
Not ideal in Shermans I admit.
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(http://www.superiorsilkscreen.com/665-712-large/oh-snap.jpg)
They like sausage as well :old:
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So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe.
hate to tell you this, I seen a website written by another historian who wrote down the events from the show and what really happened. Each Episode had about half a dozen up to a dozen mistakes.
Example:
* At the beginning of the ninth episode, "Why We Fight", the date says April 11, 1945 as the episode opens with the paratroopers overlooking German civilians cleaning up their streets. At the end of the episode, the show returns to this scene, at which point Captain Nixon tells the others that Hitler had killed himself. However Hitler did not kill himself until April 30, 1945. Nixon wasn't told hitler committed suicide until May 3rd, Winters knew but said it could be speculations or rumors.
* At the end of the final episode, "Points," it is stated that Technician Fifth Class Joseph Liebgott became a San Francisco taxi driver after the war, but most accounts, including that of his son, state that Joseph Liebgott in fact became a barber after returning home from the war.
bill guarnere said this on a youtube video, nobody actually knew what he did, but during one of the meetings in 1980s he said to of been a barber.
* In the final episode, "Points," Major Winters accepts the surrender of a German Colonel, who offers him an ornate Luger pistol. In the scene, Winters tells him to keep his sidearm, but in the Bonus Features DVD, the real Winters recalls the incident and shows the pistol (a Walther PP) he accepted. In Ambrose's book of the same title, he describes how when Winters examined the firearm, he found it had never been fired, and he hasn't fired it since. He shows this firearm in the HBO documentary We Stand Alone Together. Also in book Beyond Band of Brothers : The war memoirs of Major Dick Winters written by Cole. C. Kingseed with Major Dick Winters it is said that the pistol was accepted but the rank of the German soldier was a Major not Colonel.
These are just the beginning, I haven't found the website - but the historian had a ton of information on the 501st, compares the show to ambrose's book and found quite a few errors in it.
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Not ideal in Shermans I admit.
Mate, it's not ideal in any circumstance. When is it generally sound logic and good tactical sense to advance an entire Corps along what was, essentially, a two lane, elevated, road?
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Mate, it's not ideal in any circumstance. When is it generally sound logic and good tactical sense to advance an entire Corps along what was, essentially, a two lane, elevated, road?
When you have the enemy on the run, have available air support and wish to keep the enemy under immense pressure I suppose.
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When you have the enemy on the run, have available air support and wish to keep the enemy under immense pressure I suppose.
It might be used if the enemy was in a headlong, panicked retreat in order to keep the "scare on" them, but that isn't a sound tactical disposition when you are trying to close with and destroy the enemy by using the impressive mass and firepower of XXX Corps.
You can just imagine how much of your firepower you take away by advancing 2 abreast along a highway, with the rest of the corps strung out for miles behind you absolutely helpless to bring their weapons to bear and vulnerable to ambush from three sides. There was absolutely no room to maneuver against the enemy and the strength of XXX Corps could not be utilized properly while it was sitting idle of hours while the few regiments at the head of the column came under assault.
I would argue that MARKET-GARDEN violated most of the 9 Principles of War, and if you actually analyze the battle, it's no big surprise that it failed.
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1. So you are proposing The Band of Brothers should be considered a body of historical record and not a piece of dramatised entertainment using artistic license and based on the research and selected interviews of one man?
2. It would be unrealistic to ask for 'high regard', let's face it, you can't even achieve a basic level of mutual respect.
1. No.
2. Uh, yeah, we'll start with the British having a little respect, which they did not even have during the war for the most part.
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Well, if a teacher asked my child to write a paper on a historic event based soley upon a movie. I would ask that teacher to write me a letter of resignation.
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1. No.
2. Uh, yeah, we'll start with the British having a little respect, which they did not even have during the war for the most part.
Thats a sweeping statement.
Maybe you should have fought with the Narzzies, they had little respect for a lot of things.
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hate to tell you this, I seen a website written by another historian who wrote down the events from the show and what really happened. Each Episode had about half a dozen up to a dozen mistakes.
Example:
* At the beginning of the ninth episode, "Why We Fight", the date says April 11, 1945 as the episode opens with the paratroopers overlooking German civilians cleaning up their streets. At the end of the episode, the show returns to this scene, at which point Captain Nixon tells the others that Hitler had killed himself. However Hitler did not kill himself until April 30, 1945. Nixon wasn't told hitler committed suicide until May 3rd, Winters knew but said it could be speculations or rumors.
* At the end of the final episode, "Points," it is stated that Technician Fifth Class Joseph Liebgott became a San Francisco taxi driver after the war, but most accounts, including that of his son, state that Joseph Liebgott in fact became a barber after returning home from the war.
bill guarnere said this on a youtube video, nobody actually knew what he did, but during one of the meetings in 1980s he said to of been a barber.
* In the final episode, "Points," Major Winters accepts the surrender of a German Colonel, who offers him an ornate Luger pistol. In the scene, Winters tells him to keep his sidearm, but in the Bonus Features DVD, the real Winters recalls the incident and shows the pistol (a Walther PP) he accepted. In Ambrose's book of the same title, he describes how when Winters examined the firearm, he found it had never been fired, and he hasn't fired it since. He shows this firearm in the HBO documentary We Stand Alone Together. Also in book Beyond Band of Brothers : The war memoirs of Major Dick Winters written by Cole. C. Kingseed with Major Dick Winters it is said that the pistol was accepted but the rank of the German soldier was a Major not Colonel.
These are just the beginning, I haven't found the website - but the historian had a ton of information on the 501st, compares the show to ambrose's book and found quite a few errors in it.
There is a difference between minor details, such as the exact date of Nixon informing the troops of Hitler's death (which could indeed be a representation of Nixon passing along an unsubstantiated rumor, those things happen in war), or what job one of the men took after the war, or the rank and type of firearm carried by a surrendering officer, and what actually happened in a battle, such as a tank commander driving straight into a hidden enemy tank's kill zone, despite being warned.
No one, myself included, said "Band of Brothers" was a perfectly correct documentary. No such thing exists, no documentary is perfectly accurate. The point is, "Band of Brothers" is not rife with major glaring inaccuracies.
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Thats a sweeping statement.
Maybe you should have fought with the Narzzies, they had little respect for a lot of things.
Maybe you should take a long walk on a short pier.
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Maybe you should take a long walk on a short pier.
idiot
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idiot
Well, now there is another brilliant retort. My congratulations to you. :rolleyes:
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Then perhaps you'd like to rephrase your earlier statement:-
So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe...
2. Uh, yeah, we'll start with the British having a little respect, which they did not even have during the war for the most part.
Perhaps you ought to expand and justify this statement, if you wish to retain any credibility at all.
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Well, if a teacher asked my child to write a paper on a historic event based soley upon a movie. I would ask that teacher to write me a letter of resignation.
Thank you Helbent, for supplying a grain of rationality :salute
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Perhaps you ought to expand and justify this statement, if you wish to retain any credibility at all.
Credibility with you ranks right down there at the bottom of the list of my concerns. I neither know nor care who or what you are. People like you amuse me a great deal, you demand all sorts of things, as if you were in a position to do so, and your opinion was all that matters. I have neither the need nor the desire to "justify" anything to the likes of you.
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:rofl
Your odd :rofl
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Credibility with you ranks right down there at the bottom of the list of my concerns. I neither know nor care who or what you are. People like you amuse me a great deal, you demand all sorts of things, as if you were in a position to do so, and your opinion was all that matters. I have neither the need nor the desire to "justify" anything to the likes of you.
I wasn't talking about your credibility with me but here on these forums. You have shown to be wrong once already and instead of accepting that or retracting that you go further and in fact reveal some form of personal bias.
By your description 'the likes of you' do you mean that I am not qualified or equal to you to ask you to justify your statement? Why, am I inferior in some way? Is it not a reasonable request following your statement?
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I wasn't talking about your credibility with me but here on these forums. You have shown to be wrong once already and instead of accepting that or retracting that you go further and in fact reveal some form of personal bias.
By your description 'the likes of you' do you mean that I am not qualified or equal to you to ask you to justify your statement? Why, am I inferior in some way? Is it not a reasonable request following your statement?
He has a point Shida, best ignore him he is Mr Angry today and a bit odd :)
He is a colonial he is always right :)
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Im a colonial, and im odd, and im angry :frown:
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Your not creepy like that other bloke :)
where are those socks?
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They are on my feet, calf high and white :) would you like some of these athletic socks? :)
They will make you +10 anywhere you go in public :old:
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I wasn't talking about your credibility with me but here on these forums. You have shown to be wrong once already and instead of accepting that or retracting that you go further and in fact reveal some form of personal bias.
By your description 'the likes of you' do you mean that I am not qualified or equal to you to ask you to justify your statement? Why, am I inferior in some way? Is it not a reasonable request following your statement?
I have no worries about my credibility on these forums. It is your opinion that I have been shown to be wrong. What was shown is that "Band of Brothers" is not a perfect documentary. Of course, the problem with that is that no one, myself included, ever claimed it was.
You seem to have this belief that you are in some sort of position to demand "respect" from Americans while you look down your nose at them. It seems to be a common theme among Europeans in general, and the British in particular. Good luck with that.
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:rofl
Ignore this bloke Shida, he burnt his toast this morning thats all :)
Pies are better than toast :old:
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'Band of Brothers' is a fictional dramatisation loosely based on factual events, not a documentary. You can verify this easily. Even if this anecdote is absolutely true and unaltered (and somehow I doubt that), how does it generalise to make a commentary about the British Army or the British people as a whole? You look for evidence to support your prejudice and furthermore seem very easily satisfied.
I agree with Zack, that you can be so disrespectful to a national hero of one of your most steadfast and reliable allies is beyond my comprehension and certainly beyond good taste and common decency.
:neener:
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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:)
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You seem to have this belief that you are in some sort of position to demand "respect" from Americans while you look down your nose at them. It seems to be a common theme among Europeans in general, and the British in particular. Good luck with that.
Every country is the same, its not the country itself its just certain people. I've lived in Europe and England, nobody "looks down on Americans" in general. I have my own opinions on Europe but nothing bad, except for French in Paris - goto normandy and the folks are lovely, Paris however are bunch of aholes.
I was only there for a week and its only my opinion - pretty sure someone else would laugh and say otherwise - but as for it i'd never visit france again. England however? I had the most enjoyment. Funny how Brits think american's "Don't know" soccer and try to educate.. was funny when I got to see Man united and could name all the players on the field, only mistake was wearing an "away" jersey to a home game - oops I took some words for it :)
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Your wrong Butcher that Captain Chaos bloke is right the British are a absolute shower :old:
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You seem to have this belief that you are in some sort of position to demand "respect" from Americans while you look down your nose at them. It seems to be a common theme among Europeans in general, and the British in particular. Good luck with that.
Demand is your word, your interpretation and a product, I suggest, of your now abundantly obvious and unfounded prejudice towards Europeans and especially the British.
I have demanded no such thing. I aspire to be treated equally even if I am not an American. I am not so unintelligent to identify this as anything other than an aspiration. I remind you that you chose not to treat me equally when you began referring to me in a derogatory fashion as 'the likes of you'. I asked you to qualify your statement, instead you tried to make it personal, devaluing and insulting at which point you lose all credibility and incur my full derision. But good luck with your approach in the future also.
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Everything would have been fine if Benny Hill ran the Op! :aok
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Get back in your bunker RngFndr, the CIA have infiltrated this BBS :old:
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Get back in your bunker RngFndr, the CIA have infiltrated this BBS :old:
:x Goody Freaking Gumdrops for them!
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Demand is your word, your interpretation and a product, I suggest, of your now abundantly obvious and unfounded prejudice towards Europeans and especially the British.
I have demanded no such thing. I aspire to be treated equally even if I am not an American. I am not so unintelligent to identify this as anything other than an aspiration. I remind you that you chose not to treat me equally when you began referring to me in a derogatory fashion as 'the likes of you'. I asked you to qualify your statement, instead you tried to make it personal, devaluing and insulting at which point you lose all credibility and incur my full derision. But good luck with your approach in the future also.
I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.
As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.
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double post deleted
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Everything would have been fine if Benny Hill ran the Op! :aok
He is right though :old:
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hate to tell you this, I seen a website written by another historian who wrote down the events from the show and what really happened. Each Episode had about half a dozen up to a dozen mistakes.
Example:
* At the beginning of the ninth episode, "Why We Fight", the date says April 11, 1945 as the episode opens with the paratroopers overlooking German civilians cleaning up their streets. At the end of the episode, the show returns to this scene, at which point Captain Nixon tells the others that Hitler had killed himself. However Hitler did not kill himself until April 30, 1945. Nixon wasn't told hitler committed suicide until May 3rd, Winters knew but said it could be speculations or rumors.
* At the end of the final episode, "Points," it is stated that Technician Fifth Class Joseph Liebgott became a San Francisco taxi driver after the war, but most accounts, including that of his son, state that Joseph Liebgott in fact became a barber after returning home from the war.
bill guarnere said this on a youtube video, nobody actually knew what he did, but during one of the meetings in 1980s he said to of been a barber.
* In the final episode, "Points," Major Winters accepts the surrender of a German Colonel, who offers him an ornate Luger pistol. In the scene, Winters tells him to keep his sidearm, but in the Bonus Features DVD, the real Winters recalls the incident and shows the pistol (a Walther PP) he accepted. In Ambrose's book of the same title, he describes how when Winters examined the firearm, he found it had never been fired, and he hasn't fired it since. He shows this firearm in the HBO documentary We Stand Alone Together. Also in book Beyond Band of Brothers : The war memoirs of Major Dick Winters written by Cole. C. Kingseed with Major Dick Winters it is said that the pistol was accepted but the rank of the German soldier was a Major not Colonel.
These are just the beginning, I haven't found the website - but the historian had a ton of information on the 501st, compares the show to ambrose's book and found quite a few errors in it.
You are talking about Mark Bando's "Trigger Time" forum for the 101st. He's the premier 101st historian of the last 30 years or so. Not defending Band of Brothers or tearing it up. In terms of the mini-series they did a good job. As with any movie or series, characters got left out, events were twisted a bit to fit and blended into characters that were left in. In terms of armchair nit pickers like myself, there were things that were 'wrong' in the book and in the series. That being said I think both are very worthy efforts.
Ambrose relied very much on the recollections of the surviving members of E-Company. The whole story of the Niland Brothers, that Saving Private Ryan is loosely based on was from the recollections of Don Mallarkey and the book written by the 101st Chaplain Father Sampson. Both in the end got it wrong in terms of the exact details. That doesn't mean they lied, but they reported what they'd heard or seen at the time.
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I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.
As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.
I don't have any use for blokes thats not my scene :old:
Best not to talk with this one Shida he seems to be in a bad mood about something, is he a noob?
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You are talking about Mark Bando's "Trigger Time" forum for the 101st. He's the premier 101st historian of the last 30 years or so. Not defending Band of Brothers or tearing it up. In terms of the mini-series they did a good job. As with any movie or series, characters got left out, events were twisted a bit to fit and blended into characters that were left in. In terms of armchair nit pickers like myself, there were things that were 'wrong' in the book and in the series. That being said I think both are very worthy efforts.
Ambrose relied very much on the recollections of the surviving members of E-Company. The whole story of the Niland Brothers, that Saving Private Ryan is loosely based on was from the recollections of Don Mallarkey and the book written by the 101st Chaplain Father Sampson. Both in the end got it wrong in terms of the exact details. That doesn't mean they lied, but they reported what they'd heard or seen at the time.
Its understandable certain details can be messed up - I think band of brothers attempted to be as accurate as possible, it wasn't only after the show came out certain details like Albert Blithe came to light.
At least BoB made an attempt, unlike certain movies about Pearl Harbor who used nuclear class ships in the movie...
I won't name that movie out of respect, i did get laid during it so it did serve one purpose, for historical part - nadda.
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nrshida, are you suggesting that the egos and infighting among the commanding generals was a postwar fabrication? No one is saying it was purely an English issue. It was on both sides and Ike was left with trying to coddle and appease his subordinates who were all seen as 'heros' to their own countries. The battle for control between Bradly/Patton and Montgomery was an ongoing struggle going back to Sicily. The egos were huge and the desire for 'glory' the same in all of them. Considering the resources the US had involved at the time in the ETO it's amazing that Ike allowed the Market Garden op to go if for no other reasons then political and public opinion back home.
I'm not sure if you read my previous response in this thread, but it ultimately lead to a showdown with Ike and Monty where Ike reached the point where he'd drafted the letter to the Joint Chiefs saying either he or Monty would have to go as he was tired of Monty continually pushing his own agenda. Monty's chief of staff was able to get Monty to realize that not even Churchill could save Monty on that one as there was no question which General would be replaced. Monty finally shut up and backed down to save his own command and not be replaced by Alexander.
That's not a condemnation of Monty or any of the other Generals. I imagine to command armies like that takes an ego the size of a mountain. In the end he overshot at Market Garden and it's safe to conclude that part of the reason was his desire to prove he should be the overall land commander in Europe, thus putting Patton, Bradley, Simpson and the other US leaders and Armies under his command.
There are a ton of books out there on the land campaign in the ETO and the never ending ego wars that Ike had to manage. Throw in De Gaulle and I have no idea how Ike kept them all together.
Understand that Monty had the British Chief of Staff Brooke in his ear too and Brooke was no fan of Ike so Monty was continually pushed to forward his agenda to be named overall land commander.
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So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe. Albert Blythe saw the sniper, but did not shoot him. The sniper shot Blythe in the collar bone, not the neck. Albert Blythe did not die in 1947, but in fact died nearly 20 years later of a heart attack. He was a decorated sergeant at the time of his death, having served with distinction for more than 20 years, including a tour in Korea.
Montgomery, and the British, have earned the scathing comments. They've made plenty of their own, especially those by Montgomery himself. Before you offer up your sermon about how we should hold our allies in such high regard, you might give it to the British first.
you mean lt dyke did died on the attack on foy? seems strange that they finally buried him in 1985.
semp
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you mean lt dyke did died on the attack on foy? seems strange that they finally buried him in 1985.
semp
Where did you see that? He ended up in a staff position after he was relieved at Foy. I don't recall the mini-series killing him off either. He just froze up and Spiers was sent to take over the attack.
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Where did you see that? He ended up in a staff position after he was relieved at Foy. I don't recall the mini-series killing him off either. He just froze up and Spiers was sent to take over the attack.
Think he misread this LOL Dyke was never killed or wounded. He was CO of Easy Company in november 44, during the assault on foy he ordered a platoon on a flanking mission, then ordered them to take cover in the open area which they were about to get slaughtered. He froze in combat and this is when Winters threw Ronald Speirs into the battle to fix the situation.
From his Book Winters was not happy with Dyke, he wasn't even invited to 101st airbourne get togethers after the war.
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you mean lt dyke did died on the attack on foy? seems strange that they finally buried him in 1985.
semp
A little lost are you?
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Those Ambrose books are very good :)
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I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.
Well you think 'Band of Brothers' is a documentary so I am naturally absolutely bereft at the loss of respect from someone of your intellectual calibre :rolleyes:
No doubt the British people and European people that you're fond of haven't criticised anything American yet. It's all it seems to take to set you off.
As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.
Our derision began in direct response to disrespectful comments most especially 'arrogant British' and the like. If you're going to throw these insults around and expect nothing in return then you are even more stupid than you appear to be. We are not interested, in your evaluation of how much merit you attribute to us, we have as much right to speak here as you do.
Thanks for getting personal and insulting though. It does rather prove Zack's point doesn't it old chap? :D
nrshida, are you suggesting that the egos and infighting among the commanding generals was a postwar fabrication? No one is saying it was purely an English issue. It was on both sides and Ike was left with trying to coddle and appease his subordinates who were all seen as 'heros' to their own countries.
No of course not Guppy. I believe my comment was that American public opinion towards Montgomery's achievements changed considerably after the war when he became vocally critical about elements of American command. The history of Monty and all of this is well documented & we are not debating any of it. We have no argument with those of you who have actually studied this and reached the level of understanding that you and Butcher and some of the others are displaying. What's set Zack and I off in this thread is a basic lack of respect for our culture and history.
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A little lost are you?
no look at this at 9:47 they show a body that kinda looks like lt dyke then quickly pan the camera somewhere else, then When Lipton is walking back after the battle and he passes Bull carrying Peconte, Peconte says "Is it true what they said about Lt. Dyke?"; Lipton says "Ya"; Perconte says "Thank God for small mercies." it is implied that lt dyke died at foy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6floyf8QAU
then while they're listening to the choir at the church they show norman dike disappearing along with some others who died. look at this at 2:09 it shows him gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_kiJryvmZY
they dont actually say it but it always implies it that lt dyke died at foy.
semp
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1. No.
2. Uh, yeah, we'll start with the British having a little respect, which they did not even have during the war for the most part.
For the most part they didn't have US forces involved in order to earn their respect :aok
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I've been to Great Britain, as well as Germany. My opinions are hardly unfounded, as I have dealt directly with Europeans on their home ground. I've dealt with it on these boards, and other boards as well. There are actually Europeans, and British people in particular, on these boards, and within the flight sim community, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and in fact a particular fondness. It just happens that you are not even close to being among them. So that pretty much shoots your "prejudice" bravo sierra theory down in flames.
As far as you, personally, again, I could care less, I neither know you nor care about you. You began the derision, along with your buddy "zack1234", for whom I have no more use than I have for you. I care absolutely nothing about "credibility" with you or him, you'd have to matter and amount to something before that would happen. I'd have to care at least a little for it to be anything remotely "personal" about either of you. You may stick your "derision" where the sun never shines, and take your boy with you.
Do everyone a favour and go and take your head for a dump :salute
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Do everyone a favour and go and take your head for a dump :salute
show some respect for the guy he's been to england, he knows how everything works over there.
semp
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Virgil
May I ask.. just out of curiosity
If the British did not have respect during the war... If Monty was an incompetent fool... That You know the ins and outs of both Germany and the UK and assuming of course you speak for America as a whole....
why were you three years late?
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I am now reading John Buchan's ""Oliver Cromwell".
I have not been away for three years who told you that?
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show some respect for the guy he's been to england, he knows how everything works over there.
semp
:lol
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Show some respect Danny he is a Captain :old:
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why were you three years late?
Probably best just to leave this discussion Mr P. You can't grow tomatoes in a petri dish mate.
I think the Brit-Bashing is confined to a minority, if my PMs are any indication :salute
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He has a point this Captain bloke :old:
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British Arrogance?? Just off the top of my head a few examples..
Lexington and Concord, Saratoga, Cowpens, Kings Mountain, New Orleans,
Isandlwana, The Somme, Passchendaele, Ypres, Hongkong, Singapore..
Not to mention the whole issue with Bomber Command in WW2..
Forcing the unwilling to fly into sure death, against their will..
Yep, arrogance and contempt for their own rank and file..
And arrogance and contempt for enemies, that leads to disaster..
Oh yeah, Long Part of the British Tradition and History..
Edit: Wasn't going to say it, but the Arrogance is plainly visible
on this page right here.. So I'll add this too.. The whole idea of
"Eugenics" is a British idea, that "lesser humans" should be
eliminated, for the good of the species.. That genes could be
manipulated thru breeding, to produce a superhuman species..
This was adopted by the American New Rich, and put into action
by the "Family Courts" and forced sterilization in the United States..
And Taken to it's final Permutation in Nazi racial ideology..
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i 'll just say vietnam then ......
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i 'll just say vietnam then ......
Lynden Johnson, the nanny state guy..
Need I say more???
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We could always get into the "Pals Battalions"????
How stupid was that Hmmmm???
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British Arrogance?? Just off the top of my head a few examples..
Lexington and Concord, Saratoga, Cowpens, Kings Mountain, New Orleans,
Isandlwana, The Somme, Passchendaele, Ypres, Hongkong, Singapore..
Not to mention the whole issue with Bomber Command in WW2..
Forcing the unwilling to fly into sure death, against their will..
Yep, arrogance and contempt for their own rank and file..
And arrogance and contempt for enemies, that leads to disaster..
Oh yeah, Long Part of the British Tradition and History..
Edit: Wasn't going to say it, but the Arrogance is plainly visible
on this page right here.. So I'll add this too.. The whole idea of
"Eugenics" is a British idea, that "lesser humans" should be
eliminated, for the good of the species.. That genes could be
manipulated thru breeding, to produce a superhuman species..
This was adopted by the American New Rich, and put into action
by the "Family Courts" and forced sterilization in the United States..
And Taken to it's final Permutation in Nazi racial ideology..
Oh my, conspiracy theorists of the world unite. Family courts are forcing sterilisation in order to procreate a master race in the US?
Yours little world is a scary one isn't it? :huh
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Oh my, conspiracy theorists of the world unite. Family courts are forcing sterilisation in order to procreate a master race in the US?
Yours little world is a scary one isn't it? :huh
Truth Hurts Huh??? So ya fall back on the same line...
Creepy, in that almost seems programmed, you spew it like a recording..
Oops, forgot Crete, Dieppe, and naturally Arnhem..
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Not to mention the whole issue with Bomber Command in WW2..
Forcing the unwilling to fly into sure death, against their will..
Haven't you got some foil hats to make?
In the R.A.F. Museum near London hangs a vert stab from a British bomber. Painted on the tail, by the crew, are the words "You Reap What You Sow". Get a clue about the kind of people you are slagging off and what they are all about. Otherwise you just look like an ignorant paranoid redneck.
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Haven't you got some foil hats to make?
In the R.A.F. Museum near London hangs a vert stab from a British bomber. Painted on the tail, by the crew, are the words "You Reap What You Sow". Get a clue about the kind of people you are slagging off and what they are all about. Otherwise you just look like an ignorant paranoid redneck.
See what I mean??? :rofl
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British Arrogance?? Just off the top of my head a few examples..
Lexington and Concord, Saratoga, Cowpens, Kings Mountain, New Orleans,
Isandlwana, The Somme, Passchendaele, Ypres, Hongkong, Singapore..
Not to mention the whole issue with Bomber Command in WW2..
Forcing the unwilling to fly into sure death, against their will..
Yep, arrogance and contempt for their own rank and file..
And arrogance and contempt for enemies, that leads to disaster..
Oh yeah, Long Part of the British Tradition and History..
Edit: Wasn't going to say it, but the Arrogance is plainly visible
on this page right here.. So I'll add this too.. The whole idea of
"Eugenics" is a British idea, that "lesser humans" should be
eliminated, for the good of the species.. That genes could be
manipulated thru breeding, to produce a superhuman species..
This was adopted by the American New Rich, and put into action
by the "Family Courts" and forced sterilization in the United States..
And Taken to it's final Permutation in Nazi racial ideology..
War requires people to go to their deaths, often against their will, in some cases not, arrogance and contempt for for enemies? Think you guys have had your fair share as we have. The issue is not about governments, who send men and women to die, frequently and throughout history. The ordinary men and women of the US and UK have fought together for generations, sometimes for the greater good, sometimes not, but always at the whim of government. The rank and file soldiers and junior officers have no arrogance about the enemy they are fighting, that is always propoganda driven and fails to survive first contact with the enemy. Passchendale, and Ypres, the Somme and Isandlwhana were battles, yes there is arrogance in the way the top brass conducted them, but I can guarantee you that arrogance and contempt for enemies was not in the minds of the guys doing the fighting.
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War requires people to go to their deaths, often against their will, in some cases not, arrogance and contempt for for enemies? Think you guys have had your fair share as we have. The issue is not about governments, who send men and women to die, frequently and throughout history. The ordinary men and women of the US and UK have fought together for generations, sometimes for the greater good, sometimes not, but always at the whim of government. The rank and file soldiers and junior officers have no arrogance about the enemy they are fighting, that is always propoganda driven and fails to survive first contact with the enemy. Passchendale, and Ypres, the Somme and Isandlwhana were battles, yes there is arrogance in the way the top brass conducted them, but I can guarantee you that arrogance and contempt for enemies was not in the minds of the guys doing the fighting.
That was not the Topic.. The Topic is Monkeys Arrogance over Market Garden..
And It being an insult to Britons to mention it..
Stick to the subject..
Oh, Norway too!
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See what I mean??? :rofl
171 posts since you registered a month ago 169 of them are trolls and two were double posts, makes me wonder how many other forums you belong to in order to spout your faff about aliens and the government chemically altering your muesli to make only ugly people infertile :confused:
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171 posts since you registered a month ago 169 of them are trolls and two were double posts, makes me wonder how many other forums you belong to in order to spout your faff about aliens and the government chemically altering your muesli to make only ugly people infertile :confused:
Aliens??? :rofl
More programmed responses.. Yep, creepy..
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Thats unfair Danny. :old:
The guy seems a good egg to me :old:
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See what I mean??? :rofl
Well we comprehend your standpoint, but you are failing to make a case frankly.
This thread is doing a stirling job however of weeding out the especially twisted ones. Do carry on posting. Anyone else like to have a bash, since we are here?
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Well you think 'Band of Brothers' is a documentary so I am naturally absolutely bereft at the loss of respect from someone of your intellectual calibre :rolleyes:
No doubt the British people and European people that you're fond of haven't criticised anything American yet. It's all it seems to take to set you off.
Our derision began in direct response to disrespectful comments most especially 'arrogant British' and the like. If you're going to throw these insults around and expect nothing in return then you are even more stupid than you appear to be. We are not interested, in your evaluation of how much merit you attribute to us, we have as much right to speak here as you do.
Thanks for getting personal and insulting though. It does rather prove Zack's point doesn't it old chap? :D
No of course not Guppy. I believe my comment was that American public opinion towards Montgomery's achievements changed considerably after the war when he became vocally critical about elements of American command. The history of Monty and all of this is well documented & we are not debating any of it. We have no argument with those of you who have actually studied this and reached the level of understanding that you and Butcher and some of the others are displaying. What's set Zack and I off in this thread is a basic lack of respect for our culture and history.
I never said "Band of Brothers" was a documentary of any sort. You just assumed that I did. Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. I merely said it was fairly accurate, and there were no huge discrepancies outside of Blythe supposedly dying in 1947.
Montgomery was an arrogant overbearing chump, and his arrogance was directly responsible for the failure of Market Garden. You cannot grasp that nor can you accept it, that's just too damned bad.
You and your boy zack have proven my point perfectly. I never said you lacked the right to post here. What I said was your opinions and declarations were no more important than those of anyone else, and I do not give a damn what you think of me, nor do I owe you any specific personalized explanation for my opinions. You are just the sort of arrogant British chumps I find so boring. You remind me a lot of the ignorant Russian fan boys who run about demanding such great respect and honor for their losses during World War II, when it was their boy Stalin who joined Hitler in starting the war in Europe. They richly deserved every casualty they took while cleaning up a mess they helped make. The fact also remains that the vast majority of Europe itself, including Britain, was responsible for World War II. It was the absurd treaty that Britain and France demanded after World War I that got things started, and then your (see: Neville Chamberlain) willingness to sit around pacifying Hitler and emboldening him.
The best part of all is how the British especially want to sit around and criticize the United States for "being three years late" to World War II. Just like a snotty little brat who makes a huge mess of his room, then whines about cleaning up his mess. After it is all over with, the little snotty brat brags about how he labored in cleaning up his room, blames others for the mess, and then complains anyone who helped clean it up showed up late and didn't pull their weight. Wipe your nose, it's dripping off of your chin.
Europe was in a constant state of war for centuries, the idea that the U.S. should come running every time you clowns start another war is the most ridiculous, pompous, and arrogant part of the European attitude.
For the British soldier, sailor, and airman, I have the greatest respect and admiration, their honor, dignity, skill, and bravery are second to none. For many of the British people, I have great respect and admiration for them as well.
For people like you, your boy zack, danny76, and plawranc (just another typical "three years late" idiot) I have zero respect. The vast majority of us do not give a damn what people like you think of anyone or anything. The fact of the matter is, pompous windbags such as you and your bunch are boring. I have better things to do that match wits with unarmed clowns such as the lot of you.
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Aliens??? :rofl
More programmed responses.. Yep, creepy..
Sorry not aliens, little chaps in the centre of the 'hollow' earth that teach us things, like how to build boxes to hide your mobile phones in so the G-Men can't read your thoughts through them. :aok
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Sorry not aliens, little chaps in the centre of the 'hollow' earth that teach us things, like how to build boxes to hide your mobile phones in so the G-Men can't read your thoughts through them. :aok
I said Cellphones give off RF even when turned "OFF".. So we
have a shielded box that prevents it.. Never heard of signals security??
I never said anything about reading my thoughts.. :rofl
Again, more canned garbage that is repeated endlessly..
Why does shielding your cellphone from outside signals
seem to disturb you so greatly??? It's nothing to be afraid of!
So much that you carry it, and follow me from thread to thread???
Lets get even more creepy eh??
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I never said "Band of Brothers" was a documentary of any sort. You just assumed that I did. Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. I merely said it was fairly accurate, and there were no huge discrepancies outside of Blythe supposedly dying in 1947.
Montgomery was an arrogant overbearing chump, and his arrogance was directly responsible for the failure of Market Garden. You cannot grasp that nor can you accept it, that's just too damned bad.
We all grasped Market Garden was a failure, nobody has said anything otherwise, and Monty was in competition with Patton, who was in competition with everybody, and probably was over zealous. Though I doubt that the failure of the raid has really had that big an impact on the future of the UK, the US or any other nation for that matter, and if you look at his astonishing successes in the desert war, then it is safe to assume that he knew what he was doing, better than you or I, and Arnhem was exactly what the film suggest, a bridge too far
You and your boy zack have proven my point perfectly. I never said you lacked the right to post here. What I said was your opinions and declarations were no more important than those of anyone else, and I do not give a damn what you think of me, nor do I owe you any specific personalized explanation for my opinions. You are just the sort of arrogant British chumps I find so boring. You remind me a lot of the ignorant Russian fan boys who run about demanding such great respect and honor for their losses during World War II, when it was their boy Stalin who joined Hitler in starting the war in Europe. They richly deserved every casualty they took while cleaning up a mess they helped make.
Simply disgraceful, unadulterated crap, 20 million people deserved it did they? Suppose the Jews brought it on themselves as well?
The fact also remains that the vast majority of Europe itself, including Britain, was responsible for World War II. It was the absurd treaty that Britain and France demanded after World War I that got things started, and then your (see: Neville Chamberlain) willingness to sit around pacifying Hitler and emboldening him.
Britain, France and the US if I recall ;)
The best part of all is how the British especially want to sit around and criticize the United States for "being three years late" to World War II. Just like a snotty little brat who makes a huge mess of his room, then whines about cleaning up his mess. After it is all over with, the little snotty brat brags about how he labored in cleaning up his room, blames others for the mess, and then complains anyone who helped clean it up showed up late and didn't pull their weight. Wipe your nose, it's dripping off of your chin.
Europe was in a constant state of war for centuries, the idea that the U.S. should come running every time you clowns start another war is the most ridiculous, pompous, and arrogant part of the European attitude.
For the British soldier, sailor, and airman, I have the greatest respect and admiration, their honor, dignity, skill, and bravery are second to none. For many of the British people, I have great respect and admiration for them as well.
For people like you, your boy zack, danny76, and plawranc (just another typical "three years late" idiot) I have zero respect. The vast majority of us do not give a damn what people like you think of anyone or anything.
:cry
The fact of the matter is, pompous windbags such as you and your bunch are boring. I have better things to do that match wits with unarmed clowns such as the lot of you.
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I never said "Band of Brothers" was a documentary of any sort. You just assumed that I did. Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. I merely said it was fairly accurate, and there were no huge discrepancies outside of Blythe supposedly dying in 1947.
Montgomery was an arrogant overbearing chump, and his arrogance was directly responsible for the failure of Market Garden. You cannot grasp that nor can you accept it, that's just too damned bad.
You and your boy zack have proven my point perfectly. I never said you lacked the right to post here. What I said was your opinions and declarations were no more important than those of anyone else, and I do not give a damn what you think of me, nor do I owe you any specific personalized explanation for my opinions. You are just the sort of arrogant British chumps I find so boring. You remind me a lot of the ignorant Russian fan boys who run about demanding such great respect and honor for their losses during World War II, when it was their boy Stalin who joined Hitler in starting the war in Europe. They richly deserved every casualty they took while cleaning up a mess they helped make. The fact also remains that the vast majority of Europe itself, including Britain, was responsible for World War II. It was the absurd treaty that Britain and France demanded after World War I that got things started, and then your (see: Neville Chamberlain) willingness to sit around pacifying Hitler and emboldening him.
The best part of all is how the British especially want to sit around and criticize the United States for "being three years late" to World War II. Just like a snotty little brat who makes a huge mess of his room, then whines about cleaning up his mess. After it is all over with, the little snotty brat brags about how he labored in cleaning up his room, blames others for the mess, and then complains anyone who helped clean it up showed up late and didn't pull their weight. Wipe your nose, it's dripping off of your chin.
Europe was in a constant state of war for centuries, the idea that the U.S. should come running every time you clowns start another war is the most ridiculous, pompous, and arrogant part of the European attitude.
For the British soldier, sailor, and airman, I have the greatest respect and admiration, their honor, dignity, skill, and bravery are second to none. For many of the British people, I have great respect and admiration for them as well.
For people like you, your boy zack, danny76, and plawranc (just another typical "three years late" idiot) I have zero respect. The vast majority of us do not give a damn what people like you think of anyone or anything. The fact of the matter is, pompous windbags such as you and your bunch are boring. I have better things to do that match wits with unarmed clowns such as the lot of you.
Respect from you is nothing than dog manure.
Is the "boy" thing a racist comment based on my colour?
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Respect from you is nothing than dog manure.
Is the "boy" thing a racist comment based on my colour?
You have no idea what respect is, no one cares what you equate it to.
I neither know nor give a damn what color you are.
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You have no idea what respect is, no one cares what you equate it to.
I neither know nor give a damn what color you are.
Why call me "BOY" then sonny?
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Why call me "BOY" then sonny?
Because it fits you, following around after your buddy "nrshida" like a lost puppy.
You clowns remind me a great deal of your banned predecessor, "beet1e", who, at this moment, is on another board, arguing that World War II for Britain ended in May 1945, because Britain is in Europe. He's another "three years late" moron.
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Why call me "BOY" then sonny?
I have nothing to do with this conversation, but how on earth could he know what color you are? That's absolutely ridiculous and borders on paranoia.
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The guy is a nasty piece of work :old:
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I never said "Band of Brothers" was a documentary of any sort. You just assumed that I did. Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. I merely said it was fairly accurate, and there were no huge discrepancies outside of Blythe supposedly dying in 1947.
Well let me review and see why I have formed that impression. Here are your posts in order and unedited (I did add the highlights):
So far, the only truly inaccurate thing I've found in "Band of Brothers", after reading dozens of books related to the 101st, is the segment regarding Albert Blythe...
No one, myself included, said "Band of Brothers" was a perfectly correct documentary. No such thing exists, no documentary is perfectly accurate. The point is, "Band of Brothers" is not rife with major glaring inaccuracies.
...What was shown is that "Band of Brothers" is not a perfect documentary. Of course, the problem with that is that no one, myself included, ever claimed it was.
So in fact you did remark on the quality and accuracy of the 'documentary' (your description) several times. But now you are reframing what you said?
Montgomery was an arrogant overbearing chump, and his arrogance was directly responsible for the failure of Market Garden. You cannot grasp that nor can you accept it, that's just too damned bad.
He put his life on the line for his country on more than one occasion, was shot through the chest and got up again, routed a german trench in a bayonet attack and was decorated for conspicuous gallantry. And your summary of him is 'overbearing chump', which is just pure insult by the way, in case you try to reframe this later too.
You and your boy zack have proven my point perfectly. I never said you lacked the right to post here. What I said was your opinions and declarations were no more important than those of anyone else,
Now you are just plain lying, you have not said our posts were 'no more important than those of anyone else', and further you have used the terms 'boy', 'the likes of you' on more than one occasion and now 'arrogant British chump', these comments designed to devalue and dismiss what we say and deliberately trying to undermine what we post here. So even if you concede we have a right to post here, you have done your best to make our comments less important than yours, for example.
You remind me a lot of the ignorant Russian fan boys who run about demanding such great respect and honor for their losses during World War II, when it was their boy Stalin who joined Hitler in starting the war in Europe. They richly deserved every casualty they took while cleaning up a mess they helped make.
You realise your comment here cannot be deleted from this BBS? In the last week I have watched three human infants leave this world. What kind of environment can lead an individual to make such a callous and unempathic comment? And for what? To reinforce his opinion of other cultures on an internet forum? You should be ashamed of what you have said there.
For people like you, your boy zack, danny76, and plawranc (just another typical "three years late" idiot) I have zero respect. The vast majority of us do not give a damn what people like you think of anyone or anything. The fact of the matter is, pompous windbags such as you and your bunch are boring. I have better things to do that match wits with unarmed clowns such as the lot of you.
Terribly sorry to bore you, although to be fair you do keep coming back for more don't you?
Plawranc, by the way, is Australian, probably at least half your age and consistantly displays more insight, education and wisdom than you have.
By the way, is your current callsign 'SaVaGe'? Because I looked on the score page and a player with this callsign flew in tour 151. I noted with interest that he / you had flown a Spitfire Mark XVI on at least three separate occassions. If it is you then no doubt you approve of the arrogant British aircraft design then?
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This Hilts guy doesn't cross me as the informed sort. Even his own bile he has placed in type on this very thread has evaded own his memory and reading.
I'm glad DrShida picked up on this also;
I never said "Band of Brothers" was a documentary of any sort. You just assumed that I did. Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.
No one, myself included, said "Band of Brothers" was a perfectly correct documentary. No such thing exists, no documentary is perfectly accurate.
I couldn't stop myself from laughing.
Hilts you have to be trolling, because there is no human alive currently with the capability to type the above quote with a straight face, especially when you have the opportunity to re-read every comment your have made previous.
I'd love to tear into you and your cretinous comments, but it would be far too easy. I personally suggest you step away from the keyboard for now, your credibility in tatters.
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(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/popcorn.gif)
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the idea that the U.S. should come running every time you clowns start another war is the most ridiculous, pompous, and arrogant part of the European attitude.
you mean we should stop making money selling weapons to them? remember the war basically brought us out of our own depression. war has always been good for business, always has, always will.
semp
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Pathe News Reel of the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJTUL9S4zU
American Documentary 9mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYV1aDLkEo0
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Pathe News Reel of the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJTUL9S4zU
American Documentary 9mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYV1aDLkEo0
:aok Very interesting and tragic. Montgomery claimed 90% success? :headscratch:
I remember the Movie (A Bridge too Far) and seems it captured the failings of the ALLIED operation. I may have to watch it again.
With almost half the troops not returning it was a failed plan against a very dangerous foe. We can lay blame but in the end all the ALLIES singed off on it. Learn the lessons from history or repeat them and never go "A Bridge Too Far".
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So 'Band of Brothers' also covers operation Market Garden in its plot then?
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It wasn't compromised before the attack, but the German's managed to capture some plans for the operation off the dead body of an an American airborne officer who had carried them into battle against strict orders not to do so. This enabled the German forces to react to the attack in a much more efficient manner.
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:aok Very interesting and tragic. Montgomery claimed 90% success? :headscratch:
I remember the Movie (A Bridge too Far) and seems it captured the failings of the ALLIED operation. I may have to watch it again.
With almost half the troops not returning it was a failed plan against a very dangerous foe. We can lay blame but in the end all the ALLIES singed off on it. Learn the lessons from history or repeat them and never go "A Bridge Too Far".
He would claim 90% success it was his book, and he was well known for being arrogant and pompous, its a requirement of the job being in charge :)
Yes the Falaise (Battle of the Bulge) attack on the Allies was the same but called "A Tank too Far" or "Don't forget to check your fuel before you leave" :)
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I blame the british, after all they released Tea and Fish 'n Chips on the world.... as well as Spice Girls.
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pies rule
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we apologised for the bloody spice girls , so please please make Justin bieber stop !!!!
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we apologised for the bloody spice girls , so please please make Justin bieber stop !!!!
There is no stopping adolescent teenage girls!
(http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/kingmoneytut/Justin_Bieber_fans_111710.gif)
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There is no stopping adolescent teenage girls!
(http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/kingmoneytut/Justin_Bieber_fans_111710.gif)
Good lord man! That is the truth! :bolt:
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He would claim 90% success it was his book, and he was well known for being arrogant and pompous, its a requirement of the job being in charge :)
Yes the Falaise (Battle of the Bulge) attack on the Allies was the same but called "A Tank too Far" or "Don't forget to check your fuel before you leave" :)
Ah zack, Falaise is in France and the Battle of the Bulge was fought in Luxemburg and Belgium. The Falaise battle took place in Aug 1944 and the Bulge battle took place in Dec 1944. They are ~275mi apart.
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i apologise :old:
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we apologised for the bloody spice girls , so please please make Justin bieber stop !!!!
tell the canadians, justing bieber is from there, therefore it's another thing you british guys should apologize for.
semp
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tell the canadians, justing bieber is from there, therefore it's another thing you british guys should apologize for.
semp
Canada: Invading the US since 1812. :D
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Canada: Invading the US since 1812. :D
Invading?! you should be looking south! :bolt:
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Canada: Invading the US since 1812. :D
Is this an example of the American education system?
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Invading?! you should be looking south! :bolt:
It's not invading if the government allows them to come and stay.
Is this an example of the American education system?
No it's an example of a joke which makes it obvious you are not schooled in humor.
The following is a Joke: Your panties are too tight. :D <<<<<< smiley face indicates less than serious. "Panties are too tight" refers to being uptight and not able to relax, thus taking things a bit too serious.
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Is this an example of the American education system?
that was a private joke dood, dont get all I went to cambridge on us :rofl.
semp
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Yes the Falaise (Battle of the Bulge) attack on the Allies was the same but called "A Tank too Far" or "Don't forget to check your fuel before you leave" :)
:lol :aok
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:devil This is the better icon to use.
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(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/MickeyMouse.gif)
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Not to mention the whole issue with Bomber Command in WW2..
Forcing the unwilling to fly into sure death, against their will..
That right there is purest, unadulterated BS.
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I can tell you this RngFndr
My male relatives of serving age during WW2, all 8 of them, were London Policemen... and British Bomber Command... (They wanted Spitfires, but they, like me now, were too tall to fly fighters)
My Great Grandfather, got up every day, and stayed up all through the night, picking up pieces of little children, blasted apart by German High Explosives. Sifted through wreckage, cleared streets, and patrolled during firestorms.
My Great Uncles, all of them, climbed into Lancaster's and Stirling's night after night, for several years, going through Flak, Night Fighters and running the risk of crashing or bailing out over 300 miles and overseas behind enemy lines...
They had watched their house blown up 3 times by the Luftwaffe, one of them, Jim, landed his bomber as the sole survivor of the crew... and he was the wireless operator...
And your telling me... that they did that.... saw that... and kept going.... because they were forced to?
You really are a scumbag.
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RngFndr is going to be real popular here. :lol
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Two RAF terms for you..
"LMF", and "Waverer"..
What was the RAF Policy and Practice???
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RngFndr is going to be real popular here. :lol
Do you think it upsets me??? ;)
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Uh-huh.
Meybe you missed the part where all RAF aircrew were volunteers.
You're not just a scumbag, you're an ignorant scumbag.
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Uh-huh.
Meybe you missed the part where all RAF aircrew were volunteers.
You're not just a scumbag, you're an ignorant scumbag.
Name calling doesn't change the fact that
Systematic Coercion was RAF Policy..
Coercion = Force..
Sorry that it may not fit in your view of things..
But it was standard practice, nevertheless..
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BS
All aircrew were volunteers.
No-one fiorced them into the air.
If they then refused to fly, they were classed LMF.
No RAF aircrew were coerced into flying. Not in Bomber Command, not in Fighter Command or in Coastal Command. Not one.
You are a ****ing ignoramus if you think otherwise.
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Check out a documentary called "Whispers in the Air"..
Apparently, people who were there, disagree with you..
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Looks like Neoconshooter has found another board for his Brit bashing.
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The second part of your statement was that BC crews were driven to "certain" death.
Here's a table of % chance of survival for various loss rates and number of ops. Number of ops is down the left, loss rates across the top, life expectancy in terms of number of ops in the cells. I've explained if for you as you're clearly a ****ing imbecile.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/rates.jpg)
Next, here's a chart of monthly loss rates. Go ahead and point out the periods in which, in which airforce, death was certain.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/comparative-1.jpg)
*** *** * ******* ******** ****.
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Looks like Neoconshooter has found another board for his Brit bashing.
You have really weird preconceptions.. :lol
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You might also want to check out this book.
There's lots of big words, so you might find it hard going, ****wit.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=05r3KO7OXhEC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=LMF+in+the+RAF+book+series&source=bl&ots=I9ecwu0mdS&sig=YrMORcRIPksOl8eI7lsOLUAtol0&hl=en#v=onepage&q=LMF%20in%20the%20RAF%20book%20series&f=false
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You might also want to check out this book.
There's lots of big words, so you might find it hard going, ****wit.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=05r3KO7OXhEC&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=LMF+in+the+RAF+book+series&source=bl&ots=I9ecwu0mdS&sig=YrMORcRIPksOl8eI7lsOLUAtol0&hl=en#v=onepage&q=LMF%20in%20the%20RAF%20book%20series&f=false
OK sorry, not certain death, lol.. But enough to warrant
policies to prevent mass refusal.. I'd say that is significant..
And it still does not change the fact that RAF Policy..
Was to force them to fly, By Coercion and Branding..
This is admitted!
Directives were even issued to make sure the practice
received no media attention, in fear of public opinion..
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The 8th AF had ~2000 airmen removed from flying duties due LMF and emotional reasons between 1942 and 1945.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=05r3KO7OXhEC&pg=PA161&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
As for being forced, the USA had conscription. :eek: Aprox. 22,000 COs and evaders were sent to prison.
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Check out a documentary called "Whispers in the Air"..
Apparently, people who were there, disagree with you..
Check out a thing called "reality", not just sitting in you tin foil hat watching skewed docentaries.
Apparently everyone here disagree's with you :aok
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You have really weird preconceptions.. :lol
The only consistent point you seem to be making is that the British Army and now the R.A.F. are morbidly stupid and oppressed their own people.
Only in the bizarre world of the Aces High Forum would Britain be portrayed as the evil wrongdoers of the Second World War.
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The battle of the bulge was the Ardennes offensive, "A Tank Too Far"
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Check out a thing called "reality", not just sitting in you tin foil hat watching skewed docentaries.
Apparently everyone here disagree's with you :aok
"Reality" is what I am talking about..
If you cannot accept it, don't try to blame that on me!
Saying it Never Happened, is denial.. That is your problem, not mine!
(And there goes that programmed recording again) :lol
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The only consistent point you seem to be making is that the British Army and now the R.A.F. are morbidly stupid and oppressed their own people.
Only in the bizarre world of the Aces High Forum would Britain be portrayed as the evil wrongdoers of the Second World War.
I never said they are the "evil wrongdoers" of WW2..
Those are YOUR words, do not attribute them to me..
Are you stupid or what?
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My Grandfather volunteered, I have a fanstic collection of war photos from India and Burma.
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The 8th AF had ~2000 airmen removed from flying duties due LMF and emotional reasons between 1942 and 1945.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=05r3KO7OXhEC&pg=PA161&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
As for being forced, the USA had conscription. :eek: Aprox. 22,000 COs and evaders were sent to prison.
That is Absolutely True...
Now, if I started having a hissyfit for even mentioning it??
Then I'd be in the boat with you guys, in denial of "Reality".. :rofl
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I never said they are the "evil wrongdoers" of WW2..
Those are YOUR words, do not attribute them to me..
Are you stupid or what?
I did not attribute them to you now did I? Only the first sentence was directed at you, the second a general observation.
Do you think I'm stupid?
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I did not attribute them to you now did I? Only the first sentence was directed at you, the second a general observation.
Do you think I'm stupid?
The whole comment was addressed to me.. There ya go..
And my point is, at times they HAVE BEEN morbidly stupid, and
Oppressive upon their own rank and file.. Callous to their loss..
And again, I never said this attitude was exclusively British..
Plenty to go around.. But I don't freak out trying to deny it either!
Stupid??? stupid is trying to deny "Reality", because it doesn't fit
in their nice comfortable viewpoint..
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Taking bets on how much longer til RngFndr gets a PNG.
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:salute well the tread was hijacked in a major way. all of this is hind sight anyway. but i thank god that we all as free thinking people from free country's with the right to
any opinion that we have. if we have an opinion dont be affeard to state it. :salute to all vets and a grand aprecation for there sacrifice for keeping our freedoms alive. to be able to write in goood conscience about anything. to tell you the truth we as a free loving nations cant really say enough about that. freedom to speak your minds without any fear of reprisals. all free nations should have this freedom. becuase it has been paid for with the blood of dead and alive soldiers, freedom fighters, to all the brave people who have made those sacifices. just something to keep in mind and remember opinions and like but holes everybody has one. as far as this tread goes look at the facts and make your own conclutions. i rambled on enough :salute all
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The whole comment was addressed to me.. There ya go..
And my point is, at times they HAVE BEEN morbidly stupid, and
Oppressive upon their own rank and file.. Callous to their loss..
And again, I never said this attitude was exclusively British..
Plenty to go around.. But I don't freak out trying to deny it either!
Stupid??? stupid is trying to deny "Reality", because it doesn't fit
in their nice comfortable viewpoint..
This is very strange. I'm almost 100% sure I wrote that message and would therefore know better than you what I meant? Why do you suppose I put the second comment on a second line? Well nevermind, a misunderstanding i'm sure.
Regarding your second point: don't you think it's a bit late in the day to be claiming you haven't been Brit bashing right from the start in this thread by claiming stupidity is pan-cultural and commonplace? An axiom i'm sure all well balanced & experienced people would readily accept anyway.
This point is hardly consistant with your earlier posts is it?
And regarding your last point, you aren't defining stupidity by observing people have come to different conclusions and beliefs than you.
Trying to insult people that don't agree with your xenophobic and insulting views is a great insight into your mentality.
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So we are all agreed then?
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Coercion = Force..
Sorry that it may not fit in your view of things..
But it was standard practice, nevertheless..
Yes be sure, the airmen were marched out to their a/c at bayonet point.
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This is very strange. I'm almost 100% sure I wrote that message and would therefore know better than you what I meant? Why do you suppose I put the second comment on a second line? Well nevermind, a misunderstanding i'm sure.
Regarding your second point: don't you think it's a bit late in the day to be claiming you haven't been Brit bashing right from the start in this thread by claiming stupidity is pan-cultural and commonplace? An axiom i'm sure all well balanced & experienced people would readily accept anyway.
This point is hardly consistant with your earlier posts is it?
And regarding your last point, you aren't defining stupidity by observing people have come to different conclusions and beliefs than you.
Trying to insult people that don't agree with your xenophobic and insulting views is a great insight into your mentality.
Page 2, post 13,..
I said, "Truly, he isn't the only general who did that in the war, lots of others.."
And you fall back on more personal attacks, saying I am "Xenophobic" , Ooh :lol
More of the that standard canned nonsense..
Wow, you must have swallowed the whole can huh???
Sorry, but I have real work $$$$$ to do..
I'll be back later..
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Yes you are right, I apologise, I missed this line concealed as it was under the glory hunting monkey comment.
So what you're saying is that George Patton was a glory hunting monkey too, for example and you're not xenophobic at all?
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Page 2, post 13,..
I said, "Truly, he isn't the only general who did that in the war, lots of others.."
And you fall back on more personal attacks, saying I am "Xenophobic" , Ooh :lol
More of the that standard canned nonsense..
Wow, you must have swallowed the whole can huh???
Sorry, but I have real work $$$$$ to do..
I'll be back later..
This is Post 13 by Plawranc"
"Before we go on a huge "British bashing" campaign.
I would just like to say that the British actually did link up with both 101 and 82nd using one road using British Infantry and Armor. And TOOK Arnhem bridge initially and prevented them from laying DEMO on it. All the while with bad radio equipment and little support.
German resistance was heavy, VERY heavy. Crack Panzer divisions being reformed from the Russian front. SS Divisions. The whole damn thing. Not to mention 2 field Marshals and 3 generals all of which with both experience and close relations with Hitler allowing for preferential treatment in terms of support from Germany.
I would hardly call it "Brits being cocky". Britain was perhaps arrogant, but even then, if it HAD been old men and children.... it would have worked. I think that German resistance played more of a role than Britains arrogance."
Your 1st post in this thread was #19.
"Battle was lost before it even started..
Yes there was British Arrogance of the same kind that
resulted in the Somme Slaughter..
Not listening to the intel on the ground, and the whole Radio
Commo botch job, just sealed the deal..
Both SS Hohenstoufen and Frundsberg were in the area Refitting..
They landed right on top of them.. Case closed..
I will say, they did very well gtting as far as they did.. But
overall, this was like the Germ"an Ardennes Offensive..
Doomed from the start!"
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RngFndr
Your maturity level matches your IQ.
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So, is the horse dead, or should I kick it some more???
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:rofl
Lets talk about Churchill instead :)
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:rofl
Lets talk about Churchill instead :)
Is that a pie? And sertiously there are some things that should'nt be threadjacked or be allowed to degrade into a purse fight.
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How are you today Nat? :)
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How are you today Nat? :)
I'll be better with my second cup of coffee.
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So, is the horse dead, or should I kick it some more???
Yeah, like you killed this one :rofl
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:rofl
Lets talk about Churchill instead :)
Okay :D
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ArturusX/256675523RL980668231.jpg)
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Okay :D
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ArturusX/256675523RL980668231.jpg)
Can't beat a Brit for telling you exactly how it is
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He was half colonial don't forget :old:
Which half I don't know :old:
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So, is the horse dead, or should I kick it some more???
Yeah, because your sharp wit and witty repartee certainly has endeared you to all and sundry in this thread so far :aok
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Yeah, because your sharp with and witty repartee certainly has endeared you to all and sundry in this thread so far :aok
"Endeared me", TO WHAT??? :lol
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"Endeared me", TO WHAT??? :lol
He did spell it out for you ;)
your sharp with and witty repartee
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:rofl
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He was half colonial don't forget :old:
Which half I don't know :old:
The lower half we made him fat with our Cheese Burgers. :D
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We invented McDonalds in the UK in 1924 :old:
The inventor was a Mr J R Hartly who also wrote a book on fly fishing.
He was originaly a pie manufacturer based in Wigan, apparently he noticed a employee put pie filling onto a bun and thus invented the burger.
His wife Edna's maiden was "McDonald" so he named it after her. :old:
Apparently one of thier sons was called Ronald :old:
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We invented McDonalds in the UK in 1924 :old:
The inventor was a Mr J R Hartly who also wrote a book on fly fishing.
He was originaly a pie manufacturer based in Wigan, apparently he noticed a employee put pie filling onto a bun and thus invented the burger.
His wife Edna's maiden was "McDonald" so he named it after her. :old:
Apparently one of thier sons was called Ronald :old:
This Tale seems to be over 9 foot high. :headscratch:
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This Tale seems to be over 9 foot high. :headscratch:
Nonsense, this is absolutely true, only the facts have been changed to protect the innocent :old:
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I am looking for said book by J R Hartly :old:
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We invented McDonalds in the UK in 1924 :old:
The inventor was a Mr J R Hartly who also wrote a book on fly fishing.
He was originaly a pie manufacturer based in Wigan, apparently he noticed a employee put pie filling onto a bun and thus invented the burger.
His wife Edna's maiden was "McDonald" so he named it after her. :old:
Apparently one of thier sons was called Ronald :old:
crap I didn't know I live in England. The first McDonalds is about 3 miles from my house.
semp
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There we have it Guncrasher has validated my story :old:
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Semp lives in Oldham :old:
I am looking for said book by J R Hartly :old:
Was a copy on eBay last week :banana:
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I am looking for said book by J R Hartly :old:
Try yellow pages, they're not just there for the nasty things in life like a leaky tap or a blocked drain :D
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Try yellow pages, they're not just there for the nasty things in life like a leaky tap or a blocked drain :D
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv15/d0nwaters/jrhartley1983.jpg)
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Thats him! :old:
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Thats him! :old:
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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I watched "A Bridge Too Far" with a British airborne soldier who was there. He was captured in Arnhem because he was wounded just before they escaped. He's still alive, but I don't think he would add much to the discussion. It's not the way he lives. His job is to jump out of a plane and the generals job is to tell him when to do it.
He was at Dunkirk and saw the dive bomber that destroyed the ship his father was on. After that he joined the Airborne and jumped in every major battle. At Sicily he was on a towed glider and when the flack started the tow pilots just cut them loose and they landed in the water. They just climbed out on the wing and were watching the show on shore until someone lit up a cigarette. That brought all the attention to them.
When he was captured, he was scheduled to be executed for stealing potatoes from the German garden, but the war ended the morning of the execution.
What I learned from him is an attitude about life. He lived through and saw unimaginable horrors, but was the most positive, happy person I've ever met. A joy to be around. BTW he always said that he wished his part was played by Robert Redford.