Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: najdorf on March 31, 2003, 10:51:37 AM
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I would love to see a late war PTO featuring F4u's and F6f's vs. N1k's and A6M5b's.
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Been awhile since we have had one of those. Got my vote:D
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Not in the Short term.
Problem with late war PTO's is the piss pore Japanese plane set( realy anytime is bad for this), but their is a great New Map Brewing for it which should be ready in a couple month's, Untill then we have the Kuriels map, Which we may run again soon. This Fridays set up is in debate presently on the CT Staff forum, and It will be posted on Wendsday.
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What would people think of a set with F6F and FM2 vs Niki and a6m5?
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Well the Wilcat can turn fight the George and the Hellcat can Zoom and boom it.:)
I am shure we will do one one in a couple week's.
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VF-27 , and 880 Fleet Air Arm , always paitantly wait for PTO's The F6F ,F4U1, vs Ki-61, A6m5 is a decent matchup, and those guys deserve the chance to fly their rides. JG-3 will fly Japanese during these, don't forget the 13th Sentai guys out there as well.
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I agree najdorf. F6F's vs A6M5's, Ki61's and NikJ' s would even have an historical flare to it. In late 1944 and early 45 it was common practice for F6F's from Task Force 38 to sweep and attack targets on Mindanao.
The F6F's faced these exact planes, the A6M5, Ki61, NikJ as well as some lesser able planes and yes even some Ki84's. It was basically any operable aircraft that the IJ could field from the Philippines and what ever they could get ferried in from mainland Japan.
There are those who would have you believe that the Ki84 is the only saving grace of the late war for the IJ. No doubt the 84 did play an important role and is needed in AH, but the absence of this one plane is no reason to shun late war PTO setups imho.
The ki61 and NiKJ are both very formidable aircraft if flown properly. The A6M5 is no slouch either.
Now this all sounds good but there is one important thing to remember and if you forget you will be reminded continuously on Ch1. :rolleyes: This is the combat theater, not the historical theater. While history does play a small part, it is important to remember that "fairness" seems to be the overriding matra for the CT, which I can understand up to a point but imo it often gets in the way of some good setups.
Why some want the CT to be a glorified dueling arena is a mystery to me.
On a related note, I proposed this snapshot idea a few months ago based loosely on the above.
Hellcats over Mindanao (http://www.alltel.net/~hensons/HiTech%20Creations,%20Inc_%20-%20Events2.htm)
I have no idea when or if it will even make it into the snapshot rotation.
Regards
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I don't have a problem with almost any US Navy bird 1v1 with an A6M5b or N1k. Where these planes feel that speed pinch badly is in the MA trying to match up with La7's, P51d's, 109 G10's, 190 D9's etc.
I would really love to get the F6f and F4u-d vs. A6M5b and N1K's. I think these would be some really wonderful fites.
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I would like to see more IJN vs USN plane sets.
CV based USN vs island based IJN would be fun
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It would be tzr... but only until the CV got parked just off shore and sunk. At that point the USN might find it a bit of downer. I think in practice both sides need to have forward bases at the outset.
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Your probably right..some forward bases would be needed. and a IJN cv or two also
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I know! lets have another russia map!!!!!
<<----stuffing finger down throat hoping to induce a gag reflex.
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I liked FinnRuss winter....got to fly my FM2....hehehe
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When was the last time we a F4U-D?
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It has been a while.
Personaly I have a big problem creating plane match up's that are Hugly imbalanced. The Pac plane set for the late war perioud is porked in this regard, it might be fun for some Blue plane fan to Zoom around with a 40mph spead advantage in his F4U-1 over The george, but it is not fun for the poor Japanese player and in these set up's we see huge imbalances in the sides and low attandance as a result.
I wish we had a better plane set for The Japanese, I also wish HTC hadent neutered the George do to all the whiners who wound up geting this done over a year ago.
I am shure one of the CT staff will do a late war plane set sometime in the future for the PAC area.
I would also sugest that all of us continue to campagine for more Japanese aircraft so we can do better plane match up's for a wider range of times in the CT.
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Okinawa terrain is coming in the June. Ma size is 512 x 512 miles and the scale is about 1:1.5. Here's the "Raw" Clipboard map from the area (Korea and China Coastlines are not edited):
(http://events.hitechcreations.com/terrain/Kanttori/okicbm.jpg)
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Sweeeeeeeet!
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Brady, in all due respect...
whatever.
When i started in the CT we had setups with f6fs and 109s and 190s. Sure they were wierd, but at least it was a fun match up. (tough one too).
If you think the 84 is so uber pop in the g6 or g10 as its replacement.
I havent seen a nik in ages. I dont see a problem with a a6m5, nik and ki vs f4u1 and f6f and fm2. I for one would be happy flying the zero in that scenario.
Fastest plane is not the only advantage.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Fastest plane is not the only advantage.
in Finn/Russ winter they were complaining that the FM2 turned to good...thats what I flew against La5 and Yaks...who was faster??????????????????????
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yeah tazer and those 4 50s vs the cannons....
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N1KJ-2 vs F4U-1 a bad match up? Have you fought against a George in F4U-1? Not really trying to insult you Brady, just seems like a good match to me. Why not give it a try? Just a thought:)
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We have, and I have.
And we will again, and I will again:)
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Thanks
:D
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najdorf,
You're new to the game so you wouldn't know why that setup won't work. It wont work because the Allies will whine endlessly about how the N1K2-J shouldn't be there because there were only 400 built and they didn't see combat until 1945. After this whining goes on for a bit the CT guys will cave in and either remove the N1K2-J entirely, perk it, or limit it to the very rearmost fields. The Allies will then proceed to use their 5 to 1 numerical advantage to crush the Ki.61s and A6M5s.
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Karnak,
I hope they do get more IJN planes.
We in the VF-27 just like to fly FM2, F6 and F4U
I know that I'm kinda tired of the F4F. I would like to see a PTO of KI-61 ,N1K2-J and theA6M5 vs FM2,F6 and F4Us
I think this would be fun
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Karnak, is partly right, the allies will complain(or some will), and If I have any say they will get slaped. We have had several Ct set up's featuring numiours allied types fielded aganst Just those three Japanese rides, and in some the N1K2-J was limited but that was long ago, and like everything in life we learn as we go, I seriously doubt that that kinda of bad set up will be created again. We (the Staff) try and not pork the puppy but we do on ocashion.
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Originally posted by brady
Karnak, is partly right, the allies will complain(or some will), and If I have any say they will get slaped.
and be stuck in the F4F for life:rolleyes:
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Brady will never support any version of the F4U in the CT until the Japanese have the ubers he'll[/b] feel more confident in. As far as "speaking for the Japanese player" goes .... (checks once again who started this thread and supports the late war PTO Niki and A6M5 vs. F4U and F6F matchup) ... eh heh heh heh. ;)
Brady: The F4U was being abused.
Arlo: By that you mean being used, right?
:D
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Would this whining be similar to the whining done to get the F4U nixed from it's one rearward base the last time "because those Allied players were 'abusing' (read 'using') the plane setup?" I mean ... not like the Axis players who would have never dreamed of doing the same thing with their rear-based superior aircraft. ;)
Yes ... yes ... it should have just had 1942 planes - but funny how the "fixing" started by limiting the Allies after the Axis players whined to the pro-Axis moderator. ;)
Ahem ....
Yep .... no F4U in the CT if it can be helped by some of the CT staff. Like that's supposed to stop late PTO players from advocating it. :D
Karnak condenscendingly adds
najdorf,
You're new to the game so you wouldn't know why that setup won't work. It wont work because the Allies will whine endlessly about how the N1K2-J shouldn't be there because there were only 400 built and they didn't see combat until 1945. After this whining goes on for a bit the CT guys will cave in and either remove the N1K2-J entirely, perk it, or limit it to the very rearmost fields. The Allies will then proceed to use their 5 to 1 numerical advantage to crush the Ki.61s and A6M5s.
_____________________________ ____
An advocate for a beefed up IJ planeset
_____________________________ ____
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Arlo,
Maybe you'd not noticed that the F4U-1 so dominated the A6M2 that it was something like 45-8 against it. Further there was no escaping from the presence of the F4U-1. True, F4U-1s entered service in 1942, but they were not present at every fight.
Further, when we had the N1K2s whined away from us they were pretty close to breaking even in K/D ratios. They weren't utterly and completely dominating the setup. True, the N1K2 is a 1945 fighter, but the better Ki.84 was an early 1944 fighter and we don't have it!!!!!!!!! The N1K2 must therefore be used as a sub-par stand in for the Ki.84.
Sorry if that damages your desire to recreate the Marianas Turkey Shoot.
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Maybe you didn't notice but it wasn't even being flown but by less than 10% of the allied players and the Ki was being ferried in from the other side. Admit it ... you were whinin' yer guts out. :D
I ain't asking for the Turkey Shoot to be recreated. We both know the factors of that fight. But you seem so damned crippled with fear that it'll happen if the F4U-1 and Ki and A6M5 meet up that I wonder if you actually scored a kill when we had our squad duel. Did you get a kill? I mean, hell .... we were whooped in every matchup except the F4U-C vs Niki ... and I don't see anyone asking for chogs.
Bring on the Nik and stop bellyaching. Just gimme the ol' f4U-1. :D
Originally posted by Karnak
Arlo,
Maybe you'd not noticed that the F4U-1 so dominated the A6M2 that it was something like 45-8 against it. Further there was no escaping from the presence of the F4U-1. True, F4U-1s entered service in 1942, but they were not present at every fight.
Further, when we had the N1K2s whined away from us they were pretty close to breaking even in K/D ratios. They weren't utterly and completely dominating the setup. True, the N1K2 is a 1945 fighter, but the better Ki.84 was an early 1944 fighter and we don't have it!!!!!!!!! The N1K2 must therefore be used as a sub-par stand in for the Ki.84.
Sorry if that damages your desire to recreate the Marianas Turkey Shoot.
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You Know Arlo it realy Pisses me off to have say I am pro Axis.
No body Whined to me I put it in and I took it out when I realised it was a Big Mistake.
I beleave their available in the MA all the time.
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Well hell, Brady. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that there was some pressure involved. But if you want to insist it was just a knee-jerk reaction then claim you're not pro-axis ... well, I sure convinced. ;)
Now, as far as promoting the CT by telling the PAC players (from both sides) to get stuffed when they request a late-war PAC setup. Yeah, that works too.
(shakes head)
Yeah, I know .... here come the posts supporting your volunteering to work hard to make the CT enjoyable for everyone.
Thanks alot. :D
Originally posted by brady
You Know Arlo it realy Pisses me off to have say I am pro Axis.
No body Whined to me I put it in and I took it out when I realised it was a Big Mistake.
I beleave their available in the MA all the time.
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Arlo,
I agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread as it mirrors a lot of my own thoughts. But, pulling the F4u-1 from this PTO was proper. The A6M2 is so completely outclassed by the hog that it's truly pathetic.
Ultimately, what it will come down to to have a good late war pac is the acceptance of N1K's against Dhogs. I have no problem with that match, does anyone else?
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Originally posted by tzr
I would like to see a PTO of KI-61 ,N1K2-J and theA6M5 vs FM2,F6 and F4Us
I think this would be fun
Not I:D
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Ultimately, what it will come down to to have a good late war pac is the acceptance of N1K's against Dhogs. I have no problem with that match, does anyone else?
Works for me. Some how this would be unfair though.
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I would love to see the nik more often.
How is one of the most common and hated planes in the MA (that would be the nik) such a lemon in the CT? I dont buy it.
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You USN guys promise you won't whine the N1K2 away this time? :p
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Did we do it last time? I know somepeople whined away an f4u not long ago and lost the ki in the process....
Show me the evidence. I dont think we have. At least not in a situation where we had a f6f or f4u
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Originally posted by tzr
I would like to see a PTO of KI-61 ,N1K2-J and theA6M5 vs FM2,F6 and F4Us
what would be wrong with this match?:confused:
And I promise I will not whine about the N1K
as If I ever did before:D
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tzr
Imho there is nothing at all wrong with it as a late war PTO setup especially from a historical point of view. That however does not apply in the Dueling arena II.
I think arlo summed it up rather well.
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you can look up the evidence as easy as I can.
From personal experience, in almost every late war pac setup in the CT, the N1K2 is either heavily perked from the beginning, or it gets perked or stashed away in the rear due to whining. In every late war Pac setup, what happens is the Japanese evade BnZ passes all day long. That's it (and well, that's how it should be if you want to be historical.) Not many people want to fly on the evading side of that coin. Every once in awhile, you can fly a Tony against a Hellcat who will fight you. Don't bother flying a Zeke in the setup though. The Cats and Hogs just BnZ you, and if you get on top of them, they dive and run. Like I said, that's what they should do. It's not fun though from the Zeke perspective. It's pretty fun to completely dictate the terms of the fight from the Allied perspective. (oh this setup gets downright asinine when they add in the Spit or Hurricane as FAA or Australian units.)
What Batz says about late war IJN setups is almost always true. They end up with mostly blue planes buzzing some japanese planes. As soon as a couple of Ki-61s come in with alt, the USN planes run for their CV, which is almost always just right off shore.
Then you have the Philippines setups with land grabbing... P-38Ls and P-47D-25 or -30's with gobs of ordnance, vs the Japanese who don't have much of any JABO ability. Add to that the Hellcat which is CV borne which the Japanese have no counter for (CV JABO wise, I mean) and the USA has a tremendous base porking advantage.
That is what happens in late war Pac setups. The N1K2 isn't ALWAYS whined away, sometimes it's perked away from the start. However, excepting in that Kurils setup, the George always ends up perked or limited to the rear fields (that's a far distance in the Philippines map too.)
Yeah, the Hog got whined away and the Tony with it. Show where I said they didn't whine them away. Personally, the Hogs I saw in the Slot on that day were not that dangerous to me at all. They just went straight in, followed the 30 degree rule, and went straight back out. They'd come back around 5 minutes later. Not that much of an annoyance. Yeah, if you didn't see one, it'd ruin your day (if they can make the shot that is!) Not one of them did an out of plane manuever to maintain their energy and try to achieve a firing position. It was all straight BnZ.
BTW, slightly off topic, but you guys really underestimate the value of the FM-2. It can easily hang with a Yak9-T in a 1 v 1, and not just in a turn fight. It can hang in the vertical with the Yak. I fought Eddiek in his FM-2 and me in a Yak9-T. He (and that Cat) impressed the hell out of me in the fight. I underestimated that plane, and he handed me my arse.
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I have no problem with Niks vs dash ones.
Originally posted by najdorf
Arlo,
I agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread as it mirrors a lot of my own thoughts. But, pulling the F4u-1 from this PTO was proper. The A6M2 is so completely outclassed by the hog that it's truly pathetic.
Ultimately, what it will come down to to have a good late war pac is the acceptance of N1K's against Dhogs. I have no problem with that match, does anyone else?
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Just call the damned map: "Late war PAC - Niks and Hogs will be in it. Whiners butt a stump."
Originally posted by Nifty
You USN guys promise you won't whine the N1K2 away this time? :p
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Nifty go find us whining away the nik. I bet you will have to sift through 50 threads on guys like you squeaking about allied planes before you would just give up.
Anybody even remember the last time a nik was included in a setup? Maybe that would clear things up.
This kind of whining about allied planes is the crap we hear every setup. Every setup. We have a policy in our squad not to fuss openly about what the axis are flying. Sometimes we slip up, but most of us keep quiet cause we know how annoying and stupid it is. Wish some of you guys would do the same.
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Nifty,
I LOVE the FM2:D
I will fight N1k2 or tonys in it any day!!
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ok, I apologize for generically including VF-27 in any whining.
(I bet no one else around here apologizes for making a mistake.)
The N1K2 has only been in like 3 setups in the past 12 months. One was a fictitious Slot setup where it incurred some whining. It remained perked and at a rear field. Then there were the Russia vs Japan fantasy setup in the Kurils. No whining there. Then there was a setup where the N1K2 was perked and available at one rear field. This turned out to be a mistake, and the plane was perked but available everywhere. Some people still complained, but not much. Maybe Karnak and myself imagined the whining, when it was really the CT staff that had just sequestered away the plane from the beginning. Or maybe we were projecting the vast whines from the MA into the CT.
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I LOVE the FM2
What he said.....the FM2 is just plain wicked :D
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Well some my whine Nifty but you wont here it from us. I dont want to speak for other Allied squads but I doubt they would have a problem either. Dont let individual whiners talk for all of us.:D
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Thanks nifty, sorry about the tone in that last one ("why cant we all just get along!" ;) ). I think you are right about the setups too. Besides that russia setup (gag), I dont think it has been included as a 'real' component of a setup in maybe 9 months. It was in quite a bit when I first started in the CT, a little over a year ago now I think. Those setups were all nik ki zero vs f4u and f6f. And of course those strange setups using that mindano map that pitted 190s and 109s against the navy planes.
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The Kuriles is NOT a Fantisy set up, the one whear I had US NAvy planes in to was but the Russians did invade those islands and did fight the Japanese in Augast 45.
Nifty is generaly right in his assesment of the way the previous late war set up's have gone. Presently I am of the mind that any future late war set up set up should incluce Free and unlimited Georges and Hellcats and FM'2, with limited or Perked Hog's Since the Hogs have aprox. a 45 mph spead advantage over the George's. A big part of the problem is also that the Allies have a ton of fighters from this time frame to pit aganst realy only the George, ya I know their are A6M5's and Tony's but they are not realy competive So it generaly just comes down to the George fighting all the allied planes, unless we limit the Allied plane set in some way, another thing that sucks is that the Wildcat can easly Dogfight a George, so the George has no real advantage in this area, and can be picked off from the Faster Allied planes in zoom and boom atacks, so it is Stacked realy.
Advantage Allies:
Speed
Effective Firepower Range
Durabality
Climb
Exceleration
Jabo, and Bomber
Paraty:
Turnin Fighting
I excluded the Zero from the last example since it is so out clased from the Other allied fihters as to be almost usless.
The above also asumes that the Hog's are in play take them out and it brings parity to Spead catagory, howeaver the Hellcats are still faster though not by a huge margine.
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BTW, slightly off topic, but you guys really underestimate the value of the FM-2. It can easily hang with a Yak9-T in a 1 v 1, and not just in a turn fight. It can hang in the vertical with the Yak. I fought Eddiek in his FM-2 and me in a Yak9-T. He (and that Cat) impressed the hell out of me in the fight. I underestimated that plane, and he handed me my arse.
I remember how I was ticked off at getting vulched by some guy in an La5 a couple times before I was able to get into the air.
Can't remember if I got him or someone else did.....:confused:
You made the same mistake in that fight that lots of Allied pilots get when flying the mid to late war stuff against the A6M2, A6M5, etc..........you got impatient.
You had me on the ropes the entire fight, up til you lost your patience and started pressing too hard: Ya had alt and speed on me, all I could do was try to stay close and under you to make you burn your E. You finally did, and when we entered that vertical maneuvers phase, you had pretty much given up most if not all of your E advantage. When you did that, and we got into the low speed stuff, I was able to "control" my plane (just barely) through judicious use of the throttle, flaps, and rudder. In other words, I was wallowing like a pig on ice, just trying to keep you in my windscreen, waiting for you to get slow enough to engage on some sort of an equal basis. Nothing magic there, I thought then and still do that the main reason I was able to win that one was because you got frustrated. I'm not a Shane, or Fester, or Leviathn...........just a below average stick looking to have some fun.
That being said.........
I've flown both sides of this fictitious "it's not fun for the guys who get BnZ'd all the time" line. I flew both sides in the Fin-Russ setup, the Tunisia setup, and the last slot setup. I flew the German rides til the Russkies were down on numbers, then I switched and flew VVS iron a bit. Same with the Tunisia setup, although I did not fly the Spits as much (leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I do), and flew both sides for the Slot setup.
All it comes down to is decent SA and knowing what your ride is capable of. So the myth about TnB versus BnZ not working doesn't hold up, at least not with me. Make the guy doing the BnZ can be fun, all you have to do is make him frustrated and commit to getting the kill no matter what the cost and you can add another scalp to your collection.
I don't personally agree with Brady's viewpoint, because I have flown in setups recently that had matchups where one side had a speed advantage over the other and still had fun. It's his setup, and he's going to run it the way he wants.
But IIRC, the CT was set up initially to allow some historical or quasi-historical plane matches. From mid-42 onwards, the US supply system had planes in the works that were equal to or superior to the Japanese planes. Not the fault of the Americans that the Japanese pretty much stuck with the A6M series, doing little more than upgrade it here and there. Add the Ki-84 somewhere down the line, please, cause it was a capable fighter. But restricting plane setups because of your own beef with HTC's available Japanese planeset is not, IMO, the way to go about it.
I'd think that running an historical setup, with the A6M's, and the Tony, against the available USAAF/USN planes would do more to prove your point of the need for another Japanese planeset than this restriction you impose.
I got nothing against you, Brady, but looks like you may run into one of the 60's style protests in here if you keep this up"
"What if Brady threw a war, and nobody showed up?"
Add the Ki-61 and F4U-1 as perk planes, perk them high enough to make it risky to use them, deply them sparingly at a select few bases, and see what happens.
F4U-1=20 perks
Ki-61 =17 perks
That way, you wouldn't see much of either of them for a day or two, and sure not in large numbers.
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1. Nik2 is well armored.
2. What the hell is your deal with speed?
If I followed your philosophy I would never up a plane but the p51.
The allied version of the nik is the hurri2c. Handles great, wonderful cannons, strong airframe, oh wait, it hasnt got shat for climb or speed!!!!! WHAT AM I DOING!!!!! JESUS CHRIST SOMEBODY SAVE ME!!!!! QUICK GET ME A SPIT 9 ENEMA!!!!!!!
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His "deal with speed" is that it is the single most important performance aspect of a fighter, by far. With that much of a speed advantage the Allies never have to worry about being shot down, they simply zoom down at the Japanese and then run, climb, return and do it all over again. This is very frusterating for the Japanese players and is the biggest factor in my persistent request for the Ki.84, which would greatly narrow (but not eliminate) the Allied speed advantage. On the deck the Ki.84 would be just about as fast as the F4U-1D, though it is significantly slower at altitude.
As to "fear of facing the Hog", that's BS. I have no problem facing the F4U in either the Ki.61 or N1K2-J (most players would want the N1K2-J), but I lack any confidence that the N1K2-J would be allowed freely.
Further the volume of whining from the Allies about niki dweebs (I am not saying VF-27 does this, but the rank and file of the casual Alled CT player does) and demanding that we fly a real aircraft (read "target") is very annoying. I normally don't squalch channel 1 in the CT (like I do in the MA) so that I can exchange s and chatter with all the other players. With channel 1 filled with moronic niki whines I'd either log off or squelch channel 1.
BTW, I was 1 kill to 0 deaths in the A6M2 against the F4U-1 in that setup and didn't do any Ki.61 ferrying crap. That didn't change the fact that I had to be constantly on lookout for the stupid F4U-1 ferryers, greatly hindering my ability to engage the F4Fs.
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You won't hear it from VF-17, either.
Originally posted by Karnak
BTW, I was 1 kill to 0 deaths in the A6M2 against the F4U-1 in that setup and didn't do any Ki.61 ferrying crap. That didn't change the fact that I had to be constantly on lookout for the stupid F4U-1 ferryers, greatly hindering my ability to engage the F4Fs.
LOL! As you should be. I don't see much of an argument in a statement that basically equates to "I coulda got me tons more Wildcat kills if it wasn't for my having to be on guard for Corsairs."
That being said, I've already agreed that the A6M2/Wildcat matchup is fine for early PAC.
I'm looking into options for getting an acceptable historical/semi-historical/somewhat believable alternate history LATE PAC setting in the CT so I can fly my ride there. I don't think "If you like F4Us, stay in the MA" is a rational argument or a good way to promote the CT, personally. (Not saying I've seen you say that ... but I have seen it said by some surprising sources).
;) :D
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Speed is not evey thing....
the plane with the best K/D ratio in WWII was....Brewster Buffalo
I will take on a La5 ,Yak or N1K2 in a FM2 any time:D
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The FM-2 should not be included in the late war setup. Sorry.
It operated off of jeep carriers and was not usually found along side the F4Us and F6Fs. Including it in the CT gives the Allies a one-two punch against the Japanese. The N1K2s and Ki.61s can't match the Allies in speed, and they can't break turn or they'll end up in a turn fight with the better turning FM-2s and lose that way. It becomes a no win situation for the Japanese.
I'd sugest:
Allies:
B-26B
C-47A
F4U-1D
F6F-5
P-38L
P-51D
SBD-5
TBM-3
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
Panzer IV H
PT Boat
Japanese:
A6M5b
B5N2
C-47A
D3A1
Ki.61-I-KAIc
Ki.67
N1K2-J
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT Boat
The advantage is rather steeply on the Allies side, but its not as lopsided as the scenarios we've had in the past that either denied us the N1K2-J or included the Seafire and gave us the one-two knockout punch.
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Give me that set up all day.
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fm2 out does the nik? I am just asking, I have not tried that match up (wonder why?). I thought they would be about equals with a slight advantage to the nik. I think the nik would have the definite advantage because of climb and speed, plus the quick kill.
I like the nik cause of its spitfire (read ufo) handling. Rarely have I reversed on somebody in the fm2 and stayed on their six long enough for a good shot. Niks and spits have this uncanny ability to do a tight reverse (say you pass above it 1k and it reverses directly on your butt and stays there).
Back in the RTC days we used to fly niks as our major ride and it was a very competent plane against any enemy.
I know f4us are fast, and my squad has some very fun strategies for using that to its utmost (we call it the chain), but it is only useful and fun when you are dealing with a much larger group of enemy fighters.
We once did a little duel with another squad, and we decided to all take f4fs they all grabbed spits (I think, maybe p51s). The f4fs cleaned house.
Speed is something we all like to have but we dont always get all of the advantages.
As far as perking goes, I dont think the nik should be perked for a late war scenario. The problem is that it is included as a 'keep them from reseting plane' which leads people to believe they are a part of a setup. Same with the p40es in the south of the slot setup, and the kis and the north.
I think this would all be fixed by having a late pac scenario next week!!!!
How bout...
bostons
f6fs
f4us
fm2s
p38s
f4fs
vs....
a6m5
a6m2
nik2s
ki61s
109g6 in for the ki84
or would the 190d be a better replacement?
Maybe we can beg for a ki84 skin.
Yes yes?
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The FM-2 out turns the N1K2 by a comfortable margin, as does the F4F-4. I did some crude number calculations some time ago and I think both Wildcats might turn better than they should, but my knowledge of how to get an accurate prediction is to poor for me to trust.
In a one on one the N1K2 dominates the FM-2 so badly its not funny, but when the N1K2 is also dealing with F4Us and F6Fs it loses its ability to BnZ the FM-2 with impunity.
109G-6 sucks donkeys compared with the Ki.84. I'd rather go without subbing anything. I just don't think any late war setup that includes the FM-2 is viable.
Well, maybe this:
B-26B
C-47A
FM-2
SBD-5
TBM-3
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT Boat
Against
A6M5b
B5N2
C-47A
D3A1
Ki.67
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT Boat
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What flight model are you referring to for the ki? aw or wb? I think it gets talked up a huge amount, in fact I am sure there will be some severe whining when that gets introduced, cause I am sure it will be about the same as a 109g6.
g6 is a mighty fine ride, first time I really dogged with it was during this setup, and it was a nice handling plane against a p51b.
I think the problem is that you are approaching this as a lone wolf vs the world. None of the planes I like to fly perform well under those circumstances. I dont expect to live unless I have a squad or friend to fly with, so I always think of combinations, not just one on one.
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Ki-84 is in no way like the 109G-6. I do not care how AW or WB's modeled it.
Historically the Ki-84 had a pretty wide range in performance; this is due to the fact that the production Ki-84's used several different versions of the Homare engine, AND were forced to fly with various grades of fuel. Actual recorded top speeds ranged from as low as 388 MPH, to as much as 427 MPH in the case of a pristine example.
The "average" of the Ki-84, based on multiple sources, would put it at about 400 MPH top speed in the range of 18,000--20,000 feet. Speed at sea level would be about 355-360 MPH, or basically a match for the F4U-1D low levels. Initial climb rate would be around 3400-3600 FPM. Turning ability would be similar to that of the Spit IX and F6F....good but not incredible. The N1K2 could supposedly out-turn the Ki-84, and out-climb it. Armament was 2 x 20mm cannons (same model the TONY has), 150 RPG, and 2 heavy MG's w/ 350 rounds each.
The major weaknesses of the Ki-84, relative to the Allied planes, would be poor performance at high altitudes, and generally inferior energy-retention compared to stuff like the P-51 or F4U....while fast, the Ki-84 couldn't "zoom" particularly well and would bleed speed faster in maneuvers than something like a Spit or P-51. It would suffer somewhat in vertical type fighting, especially versus the P-38. It was also less durable than the American fighters.
The Ki-100, on the other hand, didn't have terribly good performance and was inferior to the N1K2 in every way. The Ki-100 developed a good reputation because it was the only Japanese fighter in 1945 that was actually reliable in service.....quite the opposite of the highly unreliable and untrustworthy Ki-84's and N1K2's.
J_A_B
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Hey BRADY, you seem to forget that SPEED is highly dependant on ALTITUDE.
In other words, the F4U-1D does not always have a 40+ MPH advantage over the N1K2.
Consider:
At sea level, the -1D has a definate advantage over the N1K--about 30 MPH. F4U-1D = 358 MPH, N1K2 = 328 MPH.
However, climb to only 2000 feet and the F4U's advantage is reduced to less than 20 MPH. F4U = 352 MPH, N1K2 = 334 MPH.
Cimb a little higher, to about 5000 feet, and the F4U's advantage is cut to barely more than 10 MPH, and it stays that way up until about 9000 feet.
Above that the F4U finally starts to pull away again, finally reaching Brady's quoted 45 MPH at about 14000 feet (and even then, above that it again drops to about 30 MPH until you get over 20K).
All this means that unless the F4U can dive ALL THE WAY to the DECK, it does not have a safe speed advantage over the N1K at low altitudes, especially when you factor in the N1K2's MASSIVE climbrate advantage over the F4U at low altitudes (it's about 1000 FPM). In short, in the altitude range that most fighting happens in the CT, the N1K2 has roughly equal speed to the F4U-1D.
I have not even mentioned that the N1K out-turns and out-guns the F4U, which of course it does.
Compared to the F6F, the N1K2 out-everythings it below about 15,000 feet. The F6F can barely match the N1K for speed at seal level, but even that has evaporated by 1500 feet.
Therefore, a late-war setup featuring the F6F and F4U-1D against the N1K2 would not be hopelessly imbalanced for the Japanese side, at least not until numbers are figured in. Unfortunately the CT staff does not have a means of controlling numbers per country.
I would not add the USAAF aircraft since they are probably a bit much. I would probably add the FM2, but only from CV's and not from the same CV's that F6F's or Corsairs could fly from (representing jeep carriers).
J_A_B
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ergRTC,
The 109 can't roll, can't turn and suffers horribly from compression.
All of this is worse than the Ki.84's performance in those areas. There is a reason that the Ki.84 is universally considered the best Japanese fighter of WWII. If it performed like the Bf109G-6 the N1K2-J would hold that title easily.
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From everything jab mentions about the ki it sounds alot like a 109. I dont remember the dive cababilities of the 84 from aw or wb, maybe I will have to pull out some old discs, but I thought it was on par with late war 109s as well.
Even weopon load seems about the same. 2 20s and 350 rpg on two heavy machine guns.
Jab your evaluation of the nik vs f4u is on the nose. Wish I could have expressed my thoughts that clearly.
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I like JAB's suggestions.
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Karnak, Wildcats were used with for example The US forces off Okinawa in 45 from Jeep cariers as you say they were flown from jeep CV's but they did particapate in the same area in in the same operations as the Helcats and F4U's.
J_A_B:
The F4U can still if flow properly disengage at will and just leave, it has enough of a spead advantage across the spectrum to do this, and most combate takes place low as you well, know, shure some tards will screw up blow their advantage and get killed, but by far and large the advantages the F4U has in preformance alone warents perking it (low) or limiting it in some way. All the US planes have a Gun advantage over the Japanese planes in that they have at least a 2 to 3 times effective hitting range advantage over their Japnaese counterpart's, Now the George is tougher than the other japanese fighters but not so thought that a good burst from those 50's cant get it.
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The F4U can still if flow properly disengage at will and just leave, it has enough of a spead advantage across the spectrum to do this...
Oh, so now we fans of Big Blue have to fight the way you want us to fight.
I can retort by saying a George flown properly can't be hit.
How about we flying Big Blue promise to throttle to 75% if the N1Ks promise to only turn at 3/4s their normal G and never hang on their prop? ORrr, better yet... how about we paint N1Ks blue and green for each side and then everything is fair 'cause now everyone is flying the same stinkin' plane. Unless you have trouble seeing green against the landscape. Ahhh, okay, then.. paint them bright pink and yellow... etc. I'm sorry, one country took a design approach of rugged and fast while the other went for light weight and manueverability.
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My Primary concern is to creat a set up that is as balanced as it can be for both sides while maintaining as much historical imershion as I can. If that means limiting a certain plane or perking it to do so then thats what i will try and do, it does not mater when, whear, or what plane it is.
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The point I thought being discussed was that in a comparison, you feel the Corsair so superior over the N1K (due to a level-flight top speed) that the Corsair needs to be perked or cannot play in any reindeer games. For a fan of Big Blue, I think that reasoning is rubbish. That's the only advantage the Corsair has, it can neither out-accelerate, out climb (and even out dive it seems to me from MA fights), out turn or out gun the N1K. I don't see why this one difference makes for such a huge disparity in your mind. But it's been clear for a long time which side you are sympathetic to and I think over cautious with.
Being a fan of the Hellcat and Corsair, bring on the N1K in the CT! I'll finally get to fight how I was meant to fight.
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I appricate your input , give you the finger for acusing me of being biased, and will give your sugetions all the consideration I feal it merit's.
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Brady, you're starting to not make sense. Get some sleep :)
First off, you seem to forget that the N1K is one of those planes that generates lots of complaints due to its ability to score kill shots at 800 yards or more. This is the ONE Japanese fighter that the USN .50-armed fighters do NOT out-gun.
Speed on the deck and at high altitude is the ONLY useful advantage the F4U has over the N1K. In all other ways, the N1K absolutely owns the Corsair. The paltry ~10 MPH speed advantage the F4U has at the important 5-9K range is negated by the N1K's vastly better acceleration.
You claim that the F4 can dictate the fight. Says who? Put an F4 and an N1K co-alt, 8K or so and I can tell you which plane will dominate...it will NOT be the poor F4U. In order to be able to dictate the fight, the F4 MUST start with altitude advantage....but you know what? The reverse is also true--N1K's at 12K will utterly dominate F4U's at 7k. The F4U's will NOT be able to safely run...the N1K accelerates like a demon, maintains useful controlability to at least 500 MPH, and will be lobbing dozens of 20mm shells at the fleeing F4 all the way down.
Your comments would be true if we were discussing the A6M5--the Zero is absolutely outclassed by the F4U. However the N1K2 is a different beast entirely and can definately hold its own vs the F4....all the wise N1K pilot needs to do is fly it with energy in mind instead of "turn till you puke". The N1K makes a superb E-fighter, something few people seem to realize, and when flown as such it is shockingly dangerous. It is a LOT more than the "Zero mk II" you seen to think it is.
In a F6F/F4U versus N1K situation, numbers and piloting skill will decide the outcome, not plane type. This suggests the highly-organized dedicated Allied/US Naval squads that inhabit the CT would indeed probably win--but are you in the business of trying to create balanced setups, or handicap certain squads?
If you really ARE worried about the probable USN-based squads using their organization to smash the Axis side, then say so (and it certainly IS a potential issue). At least then you'd be making good sense....plus with discussion somebody might ake headway in resolving the issue.
Absent outside factors, the N1K can do fine.
J_A_B
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"First off, you seem to forget that the N1K is one of those planes that generates lots of complaints due to its ability to score kill shots at 800 yards or more. This is the ONE Japanese fighter that the USN .50-armed fighters do NOT out-gun. "
The Type 99MK II drops like a rock at over 400 if you want to spray and pray your whole ammo load away ya you can get hits but it's not science it is bad religon, the US 50 cal is bang on at that range, I have a lot of Kill's in the George I know what I am talking about.
"Speed on the deck and at high altitude is the ONLY useful advantage the F4U has over the N1K. In all other ways, the N1K absolutely owns the Corsair. The paltry ~10 MPH speed advantage the F4U has at the important 5-9K range is negated by the N1K's vastly better acceleration."
Acording to the latest exceleration test's the george is almost identical to the F4U's in exceleration, the paltry 12 mph advantage the wildcat has in the Curent set up enables it to run away all the time, the envelope the F4U can acheave this in much larger over the George.
From Fork's test:
NIK2-J | 23.4 | 1.9
Spit IX | 23.6 | 1.9
F4U-1D | 23.8 | 1.9
F4U-1C | 24.0 | 1.9
"You claim that the F4 can dictate the fight. Says who? Put an F4 and an N1K co-alt, 8K or so and I can tell you which plane will dominate...it will NOT be the poor F4U. In order to be able to dictate the fight, the F4 MUST start with altitude advantage....but you know what? The reverse is also true--N1K's at 12K will utterly dominate F4U's at 7k. The F4U's will NOT be able to safely run...the N1K accelerates like a demon, maintains useful controlability to at least 500 MPH, and will be lobbing dozens of 20mm shells at the fleeing F4 all the way down."
Your milage may very, but if the piolet suck the George will kill him, I am not advocating removing the hog from a set up of the approparate time frame just limiting it so that most of the fighting is between Hellcats, you and I both know that limiting is realy only a token effort because people will fly severalsectors to get themslef's the ride they feal they nead to have the advantage.
"Your comments would be true if we were discussing the A6M5--the Zero is absolutely outclassed by the F4U. However the N1K2 is a different beast entirely and can definately hold its own vs the F4....all the wise N1K pilot needs to do is fly it with energy in mind instead of "turn till you puke". The N1K makes a superb E-fighter, something few people seem to realize, and when flown as such it is shockingly dangerous. It is a LOT more than the "Zero mk II" you seen to think it is. "
I have a lot of time in The George I used to fly it a lot, I used to fly the Hog a lot to, in fact I haver flow most everything a lot at one time or another while playing AH.
"In a F6F/F4U versus N1K situation, numbers and piloting skill will decide the outcome, not plane type. This suggests the highly-organized dedicated Allied/US Naval squads that inhabit the CT would indeed probably win--but are you in the business of trying to create balanced setups, or handicap certain squads?"
I am beging to develope a decided distast for Blue plane flyer's who seam prety bull headed and have a real problem being objective. But I am tiered and not all of them are bellybutton holes:)
"If you really ARE worried about the probable USN-based squads using their organization to smash the Axis side, then say so (and it certainly IS a potential issue). At least then you'd be making good sense....plus with discussion somebody might ake headway in resolving the issue."
See my last answer.:)
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Brady, I think your position on this is getting pretty thin. It is really starting to look like you are using your own impressions and abilities in a plane to determine its usefullness in the CT. I dont see any reason not to use the nik2, and f4u1. If you are scared of seeing a sky of f4u1s, you should see a therapist, not restrict the potential fun for the rest of us.
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I think the N1K2-J is a reasonable match for the F4U/F6F until you add the FM2 into the mix. Then the N1K2-J is screwed.
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Hell, Karnie, I agree. A 3v1 is hard. :D
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I am beging to develope a decided distast for Blue plane flyer's who seam prety bull headed and have a real problem being objective. But I am tiered and not all of them are bellybutton holes
What?
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From a USN "biased" viewpoint I think I get killed more by Niki's than just about anything else but I truly suck so I get killed alot. Mainly because I go hunting for them when I see them pop up in an area while I am cruising in my F4U-1. While its true that we do hold a speed advantage over them at a wide range of altitudes. We also can't turn with them for more than a break turn at best and that is something I avoid like the plague if I can help it. As for the FM-2 being an upsetter in the balance I can see it based entirely on the FM-2 coming into a fight when the Niki is already engaged hot and heavy with some other plane and therefore would cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the BBS.
But I for one am a devout believer that the Ki-84 will help out the IJ plane set but I also would LOVE to see the Ki-100 make a low perk (8-15 simply because of numbers built) appearance in the planeset. When I played FA a good bit I would break out of my GE only role to fly the Ki-100 in there because it was a hell of a ride. You could give Spit 14's fits in that game with it. I also would like to see a Ki-102 make an appearance in the game. Also as a low perk plane 8-15 poiints. Iit might be a first for any flight sim past or present.
(http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W2/Ki-102-11.jpg) (Don't know why the image doesn't show but you do get sent to it.)
Type: Close Support Aircraft
Origin: Kawasaki
Crew: Two
Allied Code Name: Randy
Models: Ki 102 A, b, c & Ki-108
First Flight: 1944
Service Delivery: N/A
Final Delivery: N/A
Production: N/A
Powerplant:
Ki-102b:
Model: Mitsubishi Ha-112-II
Type: Radial
Number: One Horsepower: 1,500 hp
Dimensions:
Wing Span: 51 ft. 1 in. (15.57m)
Length: 37 ft. 6¾ in. (11.45m)
Height: 12 ft. 1¾ in. (3.70m)
Wing Area: 365.98 sq. ft. (34.00m²)
Weights: Ki-48-IIb
Empty: 10,913 lb. (4950 kg.)
Loaded: 16,094 lb. (7300 kg.)
Performance: Ki-48-IIb
Max. Speed: 360 mph (580 kph) at 19,685 ft.
Service Ceiling: 36,090 ft. (11,000m)
Range: 2000 km
Armament:
Ki-102a: One 37mm Ho-203 cannon and two 20mm Ho-5 cannon.
Ki-102b: One 57mm Ho-401 cannon, two 20mm Ho-5 cannon, and one rear firing 12.7mm Ho-103 (Type 1) machine gun.
Ki-102c: Two 30mm Ho-105 cannon and two 20mm Ho-5 cannon.
Payload: All variants
Two drop-tanks or two 551 lb. (250 kg) bombs.
Variants:
Ki-102: Three prototypes and 20 pre-production aircraft.
Ki-102a: High-altitude fighter version. Converted from six pre-production aircraft.
Ki-102b: Ground attack version.
Ki-102c: Proposed night-fighter version with increased wing span, lengthened fuselage, revised tail surfaces, and primative AI radar. Only two built.
Ki-108: Two protoptypes built from Ki-102b airframes. Developed as a high altitude fighter with pressurised cabin. These included the structural improvements of the Ki-102c and were still in the testing stages at wars end.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/ki100-1.jpg)
Type: Interceptor Fighter
Origin: Kawasaki
Crew: One
Allied Code Name: N/A
Models: Ki-100-1a/b
First Flight: February 1945
Service Delivery: N/A
Final Delivery: N/A
Production: 374 (275 Ki-100-1a & 99 Ki-100-1b)
Powerplant:
Ki-100-1a/b
Model: Mitsubishi Ha-112-II
Type: Radial piston
Number: One Horsepower: 1,500 hp
Dimensions:
Wing Span: 39 ft. 4½ in. (12.00m)
Length: 28 ft. 10½ in. (8.80m)
Height: 12 ft. 3½ in. (3.75m)
Wing Area: 215.29 sq. ft. (20.00m²)
Weights:
Empty: 5,952 lb. (2700 kg.)
Loaded: 8,091 lb. (3670 kg.)
Performance:
Max. Speed: 367 mph (590 kph) at 32,810 ft.
Service Ceiling: 35,005 ft. (10,670m)
Range: 1,243 miles (2000 km)
Armament:
Two 12.7mm Ho-103 (Type 1) machine guns in fuselage.
Two 20mm Ho-5 cannon in wings.
Payload:
Drop tanks or two 551 lb. (250-kg) of bombs.
Also would like to see a Ki45 as well.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/ki45-1.jpg)
Type:
Long Range Escort, Nightfighter, Ground Attack
Origin: Kawasaki
Allied Code Name: Nick
First Flight: September 1941
Service Delivery: N/A
Final Delivery: N/A
Number Produced: 1,698
Engine:
Model: Mitsubishi Ha-102 (Type 1)
Type: 14-Cyl. Twin Radial
Number: Two Horsepower: 975 hp
Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A
Dimensions:
Wing span: 49 ft. 3½ in. (15.02m)
Length (Ki-45 Kai C): 36 ft. 1 in. (11m)
Height: 12 ft. 1.55 in. (3.7m)
Wing Surface Area: 344.46 sq. ft. (32.00m²)
Weights:
Empty (Ki 45 Kai A): 8,340 lbs. (3790 kg)
Empty (Ki 45 Kai C): 8,820 lbs. (4000 kg)
Loaded (All): 12,125 lbs. (5500 kg) Performance:
Maximum Speed: 336 mph (540 km/h)
Initial climb: 2,300 ft./min (700 m/min)
Service Ceiling: 32,800 ft. (10,000m)
Range (Unconfirmed): 1,243 Miles (2000 km)
Armament:
Ki-45-I and Kai-A:
Two 12.7mm machine guns fixed in nose
Two 7.7mm machine guns manually aimed from rear cockpit
Kai-B:
Two 12.7mm machine guns fixed in nose
Two 7.7mm machine guns manually aimed from rear cockpit
One 37mm Cannon in lower right forward fuselage
–Often with only one 12.7mm machine gun
Kai-C (Night Fighter):
Two 12.7mm machine guns mounted at 30° between cockpits
Two 12.7mm machine guns mounted in nose
One 20mm or 37mm Cannon in lower right forward fuselage
Anti-Shipping Variant (Unconfirmed):
One 50mm or 75mm cannon under nose
Two 551 lb (250kg) bombs under wings
Yes Karnak, I do want to recreate the Battle of the Phillipine Sea (June 19th, 1944) but I think it can be done in a way that will allow the IJN and IJAAF to have a very good chance at getting the job done. You should read up on it a little bit and see that it was primarily the result of inexperience of the IJN/IJAAF aviators that caused the battle to end up the way it did.