Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: waystin2 on September 24, 2007, 12:23:12 PM
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Well I took a look at my kills of/killed by yesterday and lo and behold the Spit 16 has killed me the most, making up over 10% of my deaths. I am currently flying the Spit Mark 8 99% of the time. I took a look at the fighter comparison site, and the planes are basically evenly matched in turn, speed & acceleration with a slight favor going to the 16 in all three categories. What the heck should I do when you got one of these on your 6 at 200 to 400? I have tried turning to the point of stall, barrel rolling over the top and bottom, rolling scissors, not to mention good old unpredictable violent maneuvering. I have shook maybe one or two at best. Any ideas are appreciated!
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There is essentially no difference between these planes (discounting the gun packages) but, the clipped wing on the XVI, while giving it a better roll-rate, is less forgiving when the fight gets slow and has a tendancy to snap roll violently under certin conditions.
If you can pull him deep into the stall buzzer on the deck you might just see him auger behind you.
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The Spit 8, with its gorgeously large wings, can easily out maneuver a spit 16 in a slow fight. When your in a spit 8 use rudder to help you roll because the spit 16 is the better plane in the roll. If you get into a fight with a spit 16 in your spit 8, try and get the 16 slow. The fight will basiclly, almost always, come down to who has more experience.
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LATROBE I CHALLENGE U NOW TO A SPIT DUEL :)
:noid
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Originally posted by MjTalon
LATROBE I CHALLENGE U NOW TO A SPIT DUEL :)
:noid
I am try to figure out the relevance of your input to the question. Are you disagreeing with Latrobe or just running your pie-hole? If you have something to share as far as the stated topic, please by all means do so. Otherwise cork it!
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My apologies :( Latrobe's a good mate of mine, but sorry for putting an non relevant post on your thread, won't happen again :) I'll cork it now :cool:
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Hey sorry Talon! I thought you were another one of those waste of time chest thumpers. Remove cork now! I would be interested in any thoughts you my have on the subject. See ya up there!
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Originally posted by waystin2
What the heck should I do when you got one of these on your 6 at 200 to 400?
Don't let them get on your 6 ... and I am not trying to be a smartass here.
If you have fought a Spit16 (or whatever) and they have worked the fight to lock onto your 6 at D200-D400 ... well ... then there isn't much you can do about it.
98 out of 100 times ... you are gonna die ... and it's not just you ... it's most anybody ... noob or vet alike.
Now ... "Don't let them get on your 6" ... this is where you might need help.
You may need to handle the merge better to get angles before he gets angles, is just one area to work on.
If you are trying to HO or hope you get a luck front-quarter shot ... then you have basically blown the merge and anyone worth their salt will reverse so quick it will make your head spin.
Only other suggestion I can think of is to get some personal 1 on 1 time with Widewing in the Training Arena ... he is a wealth of knowledge and can also teach it.
We have alot of good sticks in this game, but most (including myself) have no clue as to how to transfer that knowledge to someone else. Not everyone can teach.
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Thanks for the additional feedback Slapshot. As far as any merge, I always try to turn slighly away during that portion of the merge allows a front-quarter shot for the enemy, then turn hard and climb into them. I pretty much use this tactic on every plane type except bombers and any plane that can out-turn me. Maybe it's my timing on the merge I need to look at. Thoughts? I religiously avoid head on situations as they are disastrous for a Spitfire. 1 plink and something will stop, fall off, spray me & my windshield in blood and oil or worse. Makes me wonder why I love this bird!?! The other has got to be situational awareness. Usually I am engaging a different con and failed to account for a Spit 16 that is within easy closing range. Thanks everyone on this, as I have some new devious schemes already at work! Keep the info coming.
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Also knowing when you lost the fight BEFORE they shoot you down helps. Don't push a loosing position. If you can recognize that the fight is going against you before its too late, you can disengage, and reposition yourself again. Murdr posted a film recently about him getting out of a bad situation alive. Knowing when and how to disengage can help a lot.
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np waystin, care to test out your theory a bit in DA ? i'll fly the 16 and you fly your 8? All for fun of course and you can test out some tactics and ACM's
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:lol You? Talon? A stuka pilot fly a spit 16? I never heard anything so funny :D
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learn some overshoot manouvers fly the plane by feel, and learn to recognize a wingline overshoot and gunnery solution.
Regards,
freezman
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The 1st thing to recognize is that the problem exists earlier in the fight. The guy who can fly his plane to your 6 is more apt to stay there then not. Spit on spit fights are all about the throttle, there is no real difference between the 8 & 16 except in the minds of those who favor one or the other. The 16 rolls better and the 8 is less "twichy"...thats it. I've got a clip or two that might help a bit...I'll post em here in a bit.
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First thing I'd do is not take the performance comparisons too seriously. If you think the other guy can out perform you - he will. They are good only for a very vague and generalized comparisons.
Then, instead of calculating the exact dps turn rate difference, you can free your brain resources to think how to out fly your enemy by cheating (aka doing that pilot s#!t).
Seriously, turn rate and radius especially, are two things that almost never happen in situations where the test results are relevant. Getting locked in a level, co-centric turning circles with another plane is not something you should wish for, even if you hold a 0.01378 degree per second advantage in turn rate.
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Pilot skill is always the dominant factor in a fight. No question that over time a superior plane will win...but in every fight there is a segment in time where the better pilot can win the fight (not that you always will)...
Here are a couple of a-20 vs spitty clips from the last few days....both are 1 on 2.
clip 1 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf)
This one I'm inbound and the 2 spits are outbound. The 2nd spit breaks off midfight to go after some buffs leaving the 1st one hanging...
clip 2 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20onthedeck.ahf)
Here I'm over enemy base looking to pick a bit...doesnt work out that way and I end up bugging out after the spitty forces me of the perch. My goal here is to get away from the enemy base. Bad enough your gonna fight 1 on 3...you dont want to then get picked by a guy just upping. I'm actually heading away from a squaadie but he diverts to me and I reverse back...
Doesnt matter in the end, I tag one (or both spits) get a cockpit shot on one and manuever kill on the 2nd and a 110 ruins my day before my cavalry can save my bacon....fun fight though
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Generally the Spit 16 drivers are going faster then the Spit VIII drivers which means you can get them to overshoot and then try and pull back into a turning fight. And as others have mentioned, if you can get them into a slow turning fight, the larger wing area of the VIII will keep you from stalling out first.
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Quick addition to this thread.
Remember a spit VIII at 50% fuel weighs a bit more than a XVI at 50%.(at any fuel % actually)
Take that under consideration before launching your sortie.
Bronk
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Though for some reason the Spit XVI weighs less than the Spit IX at same settings, though the former has the 'E' type wings that I've told are heavier...
I personally find the IX the most fun Spitfire as it's like the V, but faster... feeding the need for speed.
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IMO The spit 16 is the worst spitfire of the 6 we have. Most fights in AH end up being low and slow and the 16 isn't good at all in that catagory. The 1, 5, 8, and 9 are the best in these fights because of their gorgeously large wings, and the 14 and 16 are the "speed demons" of the spit family. In case you didn't know, the earlier spits are actually the better ones, and the 14 is actually better than the 16 too.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
IMO The spit 16 is the worst spitfire of the 6 we have. Most fights in AH end up being low and slow and the 16 isn't good at all in that catagory. The 1, 5, 8, and 9 are the best in these fights because of their gorgeously large wings, and the 14 and 16 are the "speed demons" of the spit family. In case you didn't know, the earlier spits are actually the better ones, and the 14 is actually better than the 16 too.
If a good spitVIII driver meets a good XVI driver the VIII dies...
The VIII is much more docile and "easier" to fly...but the 16 actually is slightly better in all things spitish..the 16 actually can out turn, out roll, out climb and out accelerate the 8...admittedly all my a slender margin. It's just a bit harder to put and keep on the edge....
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Yes but its just so rare to see a good spit 16 pilot nowdays. Just soo many spit 16's in the skies but, out of the 10-20 you may see in a furball, only 2 or 3 may know how to fly it right.
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That holds true in most low eny planes...realistically only about 15% of the player base is well versed in ACM...another 15% have good SA but lesser ACM skills...so out of roughly 5000 subscribers you've got 750 who can fight and 750 who can think. The 300 or so where those skills overlap significantly are the guys who you need to watch out for....
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Originally posted by humble
That holds true in most low eny planes...realistically only about 15% of the player base is well versed in ACM...another 15% have good SA but lesser ACM skills...so out of roughly 5000 subscribers you've got 750 who can fight and 750 who can think. The 300 or so where those skills overlap significantly are the guys who you need to watch out for....
:noid
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The XVI feels MUCH more stable to me than an VIII
I don't fly the VIII much but when I do, I stall way too often.... and die :D
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this is my threat list
most threating spit to least threatening
spit8
spit16
spit9
spit5
spit14
spit1
the 14 is just about the most un-spitish spitfire its more of a 190 then a spit and is easily outflown.
i have come across many good spit8 sticks more so then the 16
but i myself am more of a threat in the 16 go figure
Regards,
Freezman
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Originally posted by evenhaim
this is my threat list
most threating spit to least threatening
spit8
spit16
spit9
spit5
spit14
spit1
the 14 is just about the most un-spitish spitfire its more of a 190 then a spit and is easily outflown.
i have come across many good spit8 sticks more so then the 16
but i myself am more of a threat in the 16 go figure
Regards,
Freezman
Are your SURE you wanna put the spit 1 there?? :D :t
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Originally posted by evenhaim
this is my threat list
most threating spit to least threatening
spit8
spit16
spit9
spit5
spit14
spit1
the 14 is just about the most un-spitish spitfire its more of a 190 then a spit and is easily outflown.
i have come across many good spit8 sticks more so then the 16
but i myself am more of a threat in the 16 go figure
Regards,
Freezman
Get that Mk XIV up to 22k-25k and see if it doesn't jump to the top of that list. You just never see them much at there designed alts.
Bronk
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Im only a 1month newb but ive found the XIII the best/easiest to get results in dogfighting. I'll grab the XVI if I have to scramble for inb buffs or to hassle high 109s and P51s - ie just for its climb rate and the .50s.
sound about right?
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Originally posted by Lumbergh
Im only a 1month newb but ive found the XIII the best/easiest to get results in dogfighting. I'll grab the XVI if I have to scramble for inb buffs or to hassle high 109s and P51s - ie just for its climb rate and the .50s.
sound about right?
Welcome to a lifetime of misery:)....
There are so many variables involved in ACM it can be overwhelming. Actual turn rate is not particularly important (within certain parameters) as you get better. At the extreme it becomes almost a non factor. Thats why yucca, bluekitty, skyrock, batfink etc can be so deadly "turning" planes like the P-47.
Roll rate and rudder/elevator authority combined with a "3D" view of dogfighting and good E management just overwhelm the "2D" turn capabilities. Thats why the 16 will beat the 8 if flown to its full potential.
You can get an idea of 3D geometry in either of the clips I posted. If you look at the on the deck clip the reverse and shot set ups are all basically yoyo's which you can view as "flying the X" (vertical obliques). You can see in my views both spits "tracking" a flat turn"....basically flying the "T" (horizontal or vertical). you'll see that by geing in this "out of plane" oblique I can use my control surface authority to reorient my "lift vector" ahead of the spit....which moves my nose (and my guns) from behind the con to ahead. In an actual "turning fight" I'd be hopelessly lagging the spitties there....
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Well i can tell you what i have done before. I was in a P-47 with a spit 16 on my 6 at 400, so a rolled the plane to the right and pushed down on the joystick so that i would turn left waiting for the spitty to try turn with me, i then quickly pulled up to pull a hard right and the spit fire quickly rolled left and plled so hard he broke one of his wings. I got the proxy and he wasnt very happy with me afterward. i know its probably hard to understand what i have just said aswell lol
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Originally posted by waystin2
Well I took a look at my kills of/killed by yesterday and lo and behold the Spit 16 has killed me the most, making up over 10% of my deaths. I am currently flying the Spit Mark 8 99% of the time. I took a look at the fighter comparison site, and the planes are basically evenly matched in turn, speed & acceleration with a slight favor going to the 16 in all three categories. What the heck should I do when you got one of these on your 6 at 200 to 400? I have tried turning to the point of stall, barrel rolling over the top and bottom, rolling scissors, not to mention good old unpredictable violent maneuvering. I have shook maybe one or two at best. Any ideas are appreciated!
turn off stall limiter and push it to the limit!:aok
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Originally posted by humble
If a good spitVIII driver meets a good XVI driver the VIII dies...
The VIII is much more docile and "easier" to fly...but the 16 actually is slightly better in all things spitish..the 16 actually can out turn, out roll, out climb and out accelerate the 8...admittedly all my a slender margin. It's just a bit harder to put and keep on the edge....
The roll rate difference particularily at dive speeds is significant, not marginal.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
The roll rate difference particularily at dive speeds is significant, not marginal.
No question the faster the speed the greater the differential...
At "dogfighting" speeds its not that extreme. But the 16 outclimbs and out accelerates the 8 and is actually roughly even in turnrate (but definately less stable). In a "flat" fight the avergae 8 driver will easily eat up the average 16 driver since the 16 is tough to keep in the sweet spot.
with better pilots in a more 3D fight the 16's advantages are very noticable...
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Originally posted by SkyRock
turn off stall limiter and push it to the limit!:aok
It's been done my man! You missed my post a few weeks ago, and due to popular demand turned it off, and yes you are right it has made a heck of a difference. I am still fleshing out where the edge is on the Mark 8.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
turn off stall limiter and push it to the limit!:aok
hehe Apparently you haven't seen me in the TA. :D :lol
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Thanks you all for info and observations. Here's my followup...I figured why not take the Mark 16 up last night and I now understand why people whine and complain about this plane. It has all the turn characteristics of a great plane (Mark 8), plus extra speed, plus faster climb, little more firepower, and the one factor that really makes it great is the extra roll rate ability (like the 190's). That roll rate makes all the difference in the world when you are BnZ'ing some poor soul. The 8 would get real mushy over 350+ in a dive, but the 16 allows you to roll and adjust while diving. It is just a harder plane to shake off you from any angle. Looks like next tour I will be working on this sweet new ride! See you up there!
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16 is a great plane with high speeds. Very rarely have I ripped the wings off of it, and it's almost stall proof. If you're in a dive and reach the maximum speed the plane will start leveling off by itself.
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Originally posted by humble
No question the faster the speed the greater the differential...
At "dogfighting" speeds its not that extreme. But the 16 outclimbs and out accelerates the 8 and is actually roughly even in turnrate (but definately less stable). In a "flat" fight the avergae 8 driver will easily eat up the average 16 driver since the 16 is tough to keep in the sweet spot.
with better pilots in a more 3D fight the 16's advantages are very noticable...
Actually, climb rate and acceleration are virtually identical (acceleration measured from 150 mph to 250 mph). On the deck, the Spit16 has about a 4 mph edge, but drops to 2 mph as you go up. Moreover, this testing was done with the Spit8 carrying more gas as its capacity at 25% is greater. Max speed, max climb and best acceleration are so close that they should not be considered different in a real sense. Especially as you can be sure that fuel and ammo states will vary widely in the MA.
Roll rate clearly goes to the Spit16, however, using rudder to assist rolling can get the Spit8 rolling pretty darn fast.
Head to head, equal weight, Co-E, Co-alt with equal pilots; the edge goes to the Spit8 due to its superior stability at high AoA and a slightly smaller turn radius. You simply cannot push the Spit16 as hard as the Spit8 without getting into stall trouble.
My regards,
Widewing
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As I stated above I fly the 8 a bit better then the 16. To me the 16 is better in the verticals, picks up E faster, climbs and accelerates faster (again all by a small margin)...until you lose the edge. No question that the 16 is harder to put on the edge and keep there then the 8...
Leaving the true bleeding edge stall fight (which a good 16 driver shouldnt get to with an 8) out...which to you think is "better" in the midrange (175-275) semiangles/semi E fight?
I've always found that the 16 driver who keeps the fight in the semi verticals and a bit "fast" can secure the upper hand on the 8 pretty quickly. To me they are "equal" birds with very different strengths. If the 16 driver flies a good E fight he can dicatate the course of action to the 8 a bit more then the 8 can control the 16...
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Originally posted by Bronk
Get that Mk XIV up to 22k-25k and see if it doesn't jump to the top of that list. You just never see them much at there designed alts.
Bronk
exactly, lol latrobe
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Two things
With spit 16s, it usually comes down to pilot skill. If you run into someone who can fly them well, you may be in trouble. But the majority of people who are up flying those 16s are newer to the game.
The 16 holds E better than most people who fly it realize. Therefore, in an 8, you can use that to force an overshoot, or, more subtly, use the initial E retention of the 16 to gain angles in a turn.
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Originally posted by trotter
Two things
With spit 16s, it usually comes down to pilot skill. If you run into someone who can fly them well, you may be in trouble. But the majority of people who are up flying those 16s are newer to the game.
The 16 holds E better than most people who fly it realize. Therefore, in an 8, you can use that to force an overshoot, or, more subtly, use the initial E retention of the 16 to gain angles in a turn.
If the 16`gets`drawn into the 8's fight sure. But if the 16 E fights the 8 all the little things add up. The 16's roll rate and smaller wing play to its advantage in a climbing reversing fight...the same way the 8's bigger wing area help it in AoA and sustained turns. No question pilot skill is going to be the biggest factor...I just dont think the 8 can dictate the fight from an even start...
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Originally posted by humble
I just dont think the 8 can dictate the fight from an even start...
Exactly.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Exactly.
True..
What dictates the start of a fight is the tactical situation. What dictates the outcome is pilot skill.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Bronk
Get that Mk XIV up to 22k-25k and see if it doesn't jump to the top of that list. You just never see them much at there designed alts.
Bronk
Very true. Problem is, your oponent will just dive down to were you lose that advantage or let him go. It is much easier to dive than to climb, hence the popularity of La-7s over things like the P-47N or, even if it were unperked, Spitfire Mk XIV.
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This a followup. Thanksto everyone for all the great advice! I have found that going into a tight turning climb at the edge of a stall discourages the pesky 16's. It also puts me into position to drop down onto them when they give up or stall. With that said, the other tactic I have gone with is to single out other Spits before any other plane. Take care of it before it becomes a problem. Look for my UGH plane of the month thread coming soon...