General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on April 23, 2015, 08:35:40 AM
Title: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Slade on April 23, 2015, 08:35:40 AM
Hello,
The BF-109e4 has two 20mm cannons. Combined do they have a faster firing rate than the single nose mounted cannon in the BF-109f?
For those that have used the BF-109e4 a lot, where have you found the best convergence setting?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: glzsqd on April 23, 2015, 10:47:38 AM
I use them around 200, they are probably the worst cannons in the game. I imagine the volume of fire ends up being similar to the 109f but they're ballistics and stopping power are much worse.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Karnak on April 23, 2015, 11:24:51 AM
I use them around 200, they are probably the worst cannons in the game. I imagine the volume of fire ends up being similar to the 109f but they're ballistics and stopping power are much worse.
The cannons on the A6M2, A6M3 and G4M1 are essentially the same cannon. The cannons on the A6M5 and N1K2-J are upgraded versions of them.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: glzsqd on April 23, 2015, 11:56:45 AM
The cannons on the A6M2, A6M3 and G4M1 are essentially the same cannon. The cannons on the A6M5 and N1K2-J are upgraded versions of them.
From what I understand, the cannons on the A6M5 and N1k2-J are jam packed with HE(mini tators) rather than being purely kinetic like the MG/FF(50cal tators).
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Zimme83 on April 23, 2015, 12:20:41 PM
109E used a HE round for the 20mm, the Minengeschoß.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Charge on April 23, 2015, 05:46:29 PM
The HE and Minengeschoss were different rounds for MG FF. The later MG FF model which could use the lighter Minengeschoss round was marked with a suffix MG FF/M. The MG FF usually had either a HE or Minengeschoss in their belting for aircombat so it was usually not a purely kinetic weapon like the .50Cal.
-C+
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Latrobe on April 23, 2015, 07:41:26 PM
1 151/20 MG is far superior to 2 MG/FF.
I don't know if having 2 makes it have a higher rate of fire than the 151/20 but it doesn't matter because the MG/FF sucks! The only cannon in the game worse than it is the tater on the K4 and that's only because it's bugged all the uselessness.
The MG/FF does pitiful damage for a 20mm and has horrid ballistics. I set mine to 200 and I never use them outside of 200.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: FBKampfer on April 23, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
I don't know if having 2 makes it have a higher rate of fire than the 151/20 but it doesn't matter because the MG/FF sucks! The only cannon in the game worse than it is the tater on the K4 and that's only because it's bugged all the uselessness.
The MG/FF does pitiful damage for a 20mm and has horrid ballistics. I set mine to 200 and I never use them outside of 200.
Enough with the 30mm. If you're not getting kills, you're simply an incompetent gunner. And I've fought you, I know that's not true.
Additionally, if we can see if there's a statistical drop in kills with the K4. If there was a recent bug with the 30mm, we would see exactly that.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to Snailman with this now.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Mister Fork on April 23, 2015, 10:46:18 PM
Ok then - is the 20mm shells used in the Bf109E-4 explosive variant?
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Karnak on April 23, 2015, 10:59:01 PM
Ok then - is the 20mm shells used in the Bf109E-4 explosive variant?
Yes. All air-to-air 20mm cannons used in WWII were HE.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: bustr on April 24, 2015, 02:06:53 AM
MG FF/M was introduced with the E3 and ran through the F1. If Hitech has chosen to model just the Mine shell, then 700m\sec. MG FF/M HE and AP rounds both shot at 585m\sec.
In the 109E versions wing mounted MG FF/M and MG17 were both set for the same 400m impact point. The MG FF/M were set to converge at 200m, while the MG17 were set to converge at 400m. This created a sweet spot at 200m.
I would think Hitech would have chosen 700m\sec for play abilities sake. Still you have to wonder how many players over the years have complained about gunnery in the E4 who were only hitting most of the time with the MG17 and no 20mm.
You can test this. Spawn on the runway. Bring up the target and set the range to 766 yards with an azimuth of about 10. Shoot only the 20mm and do a 1- Mississippi as you tap the trigger. If the rounds take much longer, then 585m\sec is your velocity for the 20mm. Not much better than the MK108 in that case.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Mister Fork on April 24, 2015, 12:01:06 PM
Then does Aces High emulate the 20mm HE ammo?
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 24, 2015, 02:33:20 PM
If i remember correctly HTC has chosen to model all mixed belts as a hybrid round that combines the average effect of a burst of rounds. So the typical mixing of AP and HE/HE(M) rounds in german cannons is simplified so that every round is the same and incorporates the average penetration and explosive force.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: bustr on April 24, 2015, 04:33:11 PM
I tested the MG FF.
Time to target at (700m) 766 yards: One thousand, Two Th..splat!!
A 700m\sec round would have hit at "One Thousand" splatt!!
Yup, 585m\sec rounds.
Effective combat range is 200 yards. Convergence is 200 yards. Only fire the MG FF so you are not fooled by the faster MG17 7mm rounds into thinking you are doing any damage. Think like you are shooting with ballistics just a smidgen better than a MK108.
Now you need to think about the FW 190 A5 and what those wing mounted MG FF were added on to shoot at. (Slow level, Bombers)
From the big book of Luft ammo the MG151/20 ammo has two primary velocities. HE\Derivatives 705m\sec M-Geschoss 785m\sec.
So if Hitech is combining all of this, he would pick one or average both: 745m\sec
FW 190 A5
MG FF ------ 585m\sec MG151/20 - 745m\sec
MG17 ---- 745-905m\sec <<---depending on type of round. I've never seen anything published from HTC on this info.
Now we have the same problem as the E4. Which guns are you really tagging your con with?
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Rich46yo on April 27, 2015, 02:55:45 PM
I always thought the 151/20 MG was like a "super cannon" when compared to other single nose cannoned fighters.
Please explain to me which are the best cannons in the game and why? Thanks.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Lusche on April 27, 2015, 03:25:52 PM
I always thought the 151/20 MG was like a "super cannon" when compared to other single nose cannoned fighters.
Please explain to me which are the best cannons in the game and why? Thanks.
Best explanation you will find here: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: glzsqd on April 27, 2015, 04:11:49 PM
I'd say the Tempests Hispano MkV's are the best guns in game. Increased Rate of fire, lighter Gun, Same hitting power and ballistic properties as the Hispano MKII.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: bustr on April 27, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
Try this article from Tony. The info in it will give you a better understanding of 20mm in the spirit of what you are probably trying to get at.
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/ideal.htm
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: BuckShot on April 27, 2015, 07:13:59 PM
Try this article from Tony. The info in it will give you a better understanding of 20mm in the spirit of what you are probably trying to get at.
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/ideal.htm
This is an awesome writeup. Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Rich46yo on April 27, 2015, 11:41:21 PM
Thanks for the info fellas.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 28, 2015, 08:06:58 AM
You can see the relative damage performance of guns in AH here: http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm
The MG/FF is one of the worst 20 mm cannons, but still equal in damage to about three .50 cals. The ballistics is what makes this weapon difficult to use in a dogfight.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Rich46yo on April 28, 2015, 01:32:32 PM
Best explanation you will find here: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
Interesting but I dont like the way they calculate. According to the one graph the MG-FF gets an overall 4.5 while the clearly superior, in every respect except weight, 151/20 only gets a 4.6 over all. A insignificant higher score for what is clearly a superior gun. Im also surprised by the high numbers surrounding the type 99 20mm cannon when its common knowledge the HO-5 was clearly superior. Maybe Im reading it wrong.
Also may I ask how accurately do you believe the performance of the different cannons are modeled in the game? I dont mean maintenance or loading type accuracy, but ROF, range, and damage accuracy? I only have enough experience for an opinion with the Hispano, clearly a terrific weapon, and the Ho-5. A weapon I would rate just under.
Thanks.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Lusche on April 28, 2015, 01:42:15 PM
Interesting but I dont like the way they calculate. According to the one graph the MG-FF gets an overall 4.5 while the clearly superior, in every respect except weight, 151/20 only gets a 4.6 over all.
This score is just gun efficiency in terms of "bang per pound of gun weight", and it's not actually ranking the guns from 'best' to 'worst'. Gun power per weight would be just one factor in a equation thats would be quite complex and depend a lot of combat environment and tactical requirements, which can change rapidly.
When I linked this article, I didn't really have this number in mind, but the plentiful information about the catridge and the guns, on which one can base his own conclusions.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 28, 2015, 01:46:16 PM
In a different article Tony Williams ranked the MK 108 as the best WWII aero gun and the Me 262 as having the best armament of any WWII fighter. He also mentions it in that article.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Rich46yo on April 28, 2015, 01:54:16 PM
In a different article Tony Williams ranked the MK 108 as the best WWII aero gun and the Me 262 as having the best armament of any WWII fighter. He also mentions it in that article.
I once had a guy take out 3 B26s in one sideways pass with 4 of those 108's. I have had a healthy respect for them ever since. More then any other gun in the game. My general tactics with 262s is shoot early and shoot often because saving ammo means nothing when your dead. :D I gotta start flying KI-67s again. I think they are the best defensively armed bombers in the game. I once killed a very famous Bomber Hunter in the game in them. :D
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 28, 2015, 02:02:19 PM
:) Peggy is one of the best bombers in the game. Great combo of speed, bomb load and defensive armament.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: bustr on April 28, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Rich,
Drone circle offline. This is an inefficient way to test it. But, you probably have the skill and patience. Put the planes you are concerned about really killing in the MA in the drone circle. Then get behind them 200-400 and try tapping out one burst at a time while on full zoom and watch the results of the ballistics visa the tracers and the amount of damage.
Put a B25H or B17 in there and count rounds while dismantling them part by part. Miss the cockpit on purpose.
In the end you will show yourself what you already know. In the MA get as close as you can, then load em up with 20mm until they die. Or tap out a few at a time and get lots of assists while feeling fortunate for a few kills.
Predator,
He was doing that based on the destruction ability of the rounds, ganging of four guns in the nose creating a shotgun effect, and the qualities of the delivery platform versus the competing platforms of that time period. Even for real world pilots the 262 was not a simple point and click solution like we want it to be in our cartoon world.
I've never considered asking Hitech if he used Tony's data for the guns in the game.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 28, 2015, 02:11:09 PM
The relative gun damage in the game closely follows Tony Williams'. If it is directly based on it or on some other similar source I don't know.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Lusche on April 28, 2015, 02:11:44 PM
I once killed a very famous Bomber Hunter in the game in them. :D
:noid
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 28, 2015, 02:15:48 PM
Actually Bustr if you're used to taters and know how to fly the 262, it is very much a point and click affair.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: glzsqd on April 28, 2015, 02:49:59 PM
The MK108 is the best "Large" cannon in game. Yes its lacking in terms of Ballistics and Muzzle velocity, but it has one attribute that all the other big guns don't have and that's a high rate of fire. It is also light enough to be mounted on single engine fighters without seeing a significant drop in performance.
It is not the best gun in the game, I don't think it would make the top 3. It's simply to hard to aim for your average stick. Guys like Grizz Anarchy and the other expert tator chuckers the expectation not the rule.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: bustr on April 28, 2015, 03:22:53 PM
Their real skill lay in getting close enough in each fight that aiming was the least of their problems. Inside of 400 you lead from the side window on your wind screen with fighters. Bombers you lead by a half to a full fuselage length. In the MA the simplicity of that will elude you during the heat of the moment. Especially with the closing speeds of a 262. Try it in the drone circle offline.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Charge on April 29, 2015, 04:34:05 AM
I'd say that MK103 is the best large cannon in the game. If you evaluate it with the same system Tony uses in his article it would fall behind MK108 due to its weight but the weight is not such an issue when it's mounted in a twin. In smaller fighter it becomes an issue. At least in game the MK103 is vastly superior weapon against bombers but on close quarters the better ROF of MK108 is again an advantage.
-C+
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 29, 2015, 08:42:46 AM
But that is kind of Tony's point: The MK 103 weighs more than twice that of a MK 108 and has a lower rate of fire. So would you rather have two MK 103 delivering a total of 14 rounds per second or four MK 108 delivering 40 rounds per second?
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Lusche on April 29, 2015, 09:00:00 AM
But that is kind of Tony's point: The MK 103 weighs more than twice that of a MK 108 and has a lower rate of fire. So would you rather have two MK 103 delivering a total of 14 rounds per second or four MK 108 delivering 40 rounds per second?
In AH, depending on the role and mount - yes, absolutely.
In 410 I can hover outside of a formation's effective defensive fire range and take down bomber with very accurate fire from the two Mk 103. 4 MK 108 have more firepower per second, but you have to go much closer.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 29, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
That's a very valid point.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: Mister Fork on April 29, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
In AH, depending on the role and mount - yes, absolutely.
In 410 I can hover outside of a formation's effective defensive fire range and take down bomber with very accurate fire from the two Mk 103. 4 MK 108 have more firepower per second, but you have to go much closer.
+1 for that... 410 is the perfect example of fit-for-purpose weapon with the 103's. Where the Mk108's on a FW-190 would be best use in a B&Z on a bomber formation.
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: glzsqd on April 29, 2015, 02:39:55 PM
the Mk108s light weight allows it to be mounted on single engine fighters such as the 152 and 109. This gives you the Speed and performance of a Fighter and the knockdown power of a "Zerstörer".
Title: Re: BF-109e4 2x20mm Cannons
Post by: bustr on April 29, 2015, 03:04:55 PM
Glz,
In our game, or are you projecting into real life?