Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: -ammo- on April 11, 2001, 09:00:00 PM
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If I was to purchase a new computer.. would it be bwtter to order a monster from Dell, Gateway, Micron, NEC..etc... or better to have someone build a monster. This machine will primarily be a gaming computer with top notch vid and sound components, with office applicatrions as well.
opinions?
ammo
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I would build myself. You can get some really good deals out there if you look for em. www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com)
I usually try to group my parts together to save shipping costs. But by building your own you can put exactly what you want in it instead of having to settle for some just a bit less than what ya wanted.
S!
Rocket
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Hiya Ammo, thanks for those six calls tonight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I gotta suggest building your own gaming machine!
I built my first comp a few months ago, its not really all that hard. Just to prove it too myself, I built 2 more last month for a fiend and my mother. Both are running strong mildly overclocked.
The hardest part really, is to figure out what you want. The guys around here can help you out with that! I ended up spending about $750 US, getting everything I want on a budget. Most importantly the equipment has more of the "upgradability" than ANY store bought machine.
If ya got some time to invest in saving a buck, and getting some quality equipment, building your own is the way to go.
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The most cost effective way is to build it yourself (like my squadie camel). But if your like me low tolerance for not knowing why the *&$# will not work, and there is always something that needs help, you may want to buy a custom gaming machine. If you do go the build it route the guys on this board can answer any question that will come up (although they don't always agree with each other). It's best if you have a geek friend (we all do) to help. Me I came into some heavy cash and blew it on an Alienware top-of-the-line AMD system (atleast it was) and have had NO problems. Next time its my turn to build (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) good luck.
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Nother vote for building your own.. for 1 you get to choose the operating system you want on it and not get stuck with winblows ME. Also, you can usually get a much better system for cheaper than a name brand box. Finally, you know whats in the case from the motherboard on up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bane
13th TAS
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Banex: nothing stops you from installing another OS even to a brand computer.
A brand computer is only good for office use where you wont mind to have integrated this and that to the mobo. Or have a mobo with only 2 free expansion slots and no free memory slots heheheh..
Just take into notice that if you can't tell broomstick from memory stick, it might not be a good idea to build the system yourself. Ask someone (a friend?) to give you technical advice or even build it for you.
Choosing the right components has a huge effect on how your computer will work later on. When you build a system for game use, even one weak link in it will spoil it. Make no compromise, don't go for the extreme pricey stuff if you don't have money, but never try to get around cheap either. Buy only quality parts. The crazyest is to buy some superexpensive component to an el-cheapo setup which can't even use its max capacity.
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Those Brand systems are always a bit obsolete
when u build ur own u can have the latest things in it
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"Brand" computers almost always have thier damn crap programed into the bios so you se "DELL" or some other crap when you reboot/Start it..even if you format it.
A PC you build your self will always be better for several reasons
1:
No useless stuff...by that I mean the 60gig Hard drives they try to sell you..now space is good and all but who really needs a 60gig drive??
2:
better components..as in they have their own crap boards and cheap bellybutton memory that they stick into the stamped out toejambox they sell you.
3:
ONBOARD AGP!!!
this is a real anus tweaker...you get your PC and want to upgrade the video card only to open the case and to your horror find that the 8mb sack of vomit video card they sent with it is bulit in and the damn board has no agp slot.
4:
Piles an piles of toejam software..
title says it all..first thing you will have to do is format and reinstall windows..but guess what..they didnt send you a full win98/ME/2000 CD, just some toejambag companion CD.
5:
Ugly case..
DUH
Please ignore this post..I am very drunk.
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You can also go with an initial barebones system and build from there.
Barebones ususally comes with:
Case w/power supply
Motherboard
Processor
Cooling fan on processor
RAM
Maybe a 1.44 floppy
You can build the rest from there! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Good Luck and let us know how it is going!
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Swager
On Leave 3./JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
"Enjoy yourselves now... for I'll be back"
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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roll your own
easier to keep up to date with the latest and greatest
Eagler
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Building your own computer can be daunting, especially if you have never done it. Don't let anyone tell you it is a simple task. It isn't.
But, buying an OEM computer today is not the best choice either. OEM's have become so cost conscience they are stuffing the cheapest components they can get into the systems.
Generally speaking, you will spend more to build your computer than what an OEM system will cost, IF you chose to use high quality components.
For me, there is no other reason to build a computer, other than I demand the best components I can get. That does not equate to the fastest system, but it does translate to a very reliable system that will just simply work.
Someone mentioned pricewath as a good site to get prices and find companies that sell computer products, but you need to be cautious. Some of those low-ball prices are made up by the shipping charges and some of those companies are fly-by-night companies that do not ship anything but will merrily charge your credit card and make excuses for not shipping for 30 days, which happens to be the time period for filing charge-back requests to most credit card companies.
Here are some reputable sites I use.
http://www.comp-u-plus.com/ (http://www.comp-u-plus.com/)
Good prices, fair shipping costs.
http://www.microx-press.com/ (http://www.microx-press.com/)
Not the best prices, but they have a lot of the software at good prices.
http://www.antec-inc.com/ (http://www.antec-inc.com/)
Get the HD Cooler and fans for your system here.
http://www.techstore.com/ (http://www.techstore.com/)
Good place for the case. They carry a good line of Antec cases, which is what I would recommend.
http://www.crucial.com/ (http://www.crucial.com/)
Memory. Cannot go wrong with Crucial ram.
Hope that helps.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Good advice Skuzzy.
I have been lucky enough to find a local shop that will put machines together with the parts I choose. They build them and warranty them as normal, but I get to pick what goes into it. It's the best of both worlds. If you can find something like that close to you, it's the best way. You get quality components, local support, and a reasonable price. They won't be the cheapest, but you'll get good components for a fair price and they will normally be well put together.
The trick is to find a shop like that. They are not common.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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What lephturn said. Most computer stores around here build thier own systems and getting them to change it is like pulling teeth. I am luch enough to have a friend who builds systems for a computer store in Ottawa. I tell him what I want and makes a list of parts, emails it to me with the prices and after ive made up my mind I call him and have it the next day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) IMO actually building it is the easy part, its matching components and knowing what works with what thats the comfuseing part.
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GRAB your geek friend as someone said and buy him a 12 pack. I made the mistake of buying one at <puke> Best buy. Before you guys shoot me I must say i was very busy and didnt have to time to research the "whats what in todays comp market. Besides, the last puter i built was a p133 3-4 years ago if remember correctly. I had and still have no clue whats hot these days. So I elected for the quick grab at Best buy. A COMPUKE P3 700 128m with a V5500 64meg<which i put in myself>PCI..No damn agp. Quess what !!!! that piece of toejam locked up more than i cared for and now is completely fuked up. It will not boot unless its in safe mode. I now have to get one of my "buddys" a 12 pack to pull my bellybutton out of the fire.
Funny how this p2 350 64m with my v5500 in it runs AH almost as fast as that compuke that i have. No kidding, not much difference..What gives? Maybe i have answered my own question...
Good Luck!
LaVa
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I built my first one a couple of months ago. There's loads of places on the net where the 'people who know' (like here for instance).
I had a few problems, and putting the CPU and HSF into the motherboard was a bit nerve-wracking, but I probably saved about 500 pounds ($750) buying all the top-of-the-range parts. When I asked for custom set-ups at large OEMs, they wanted to charge through the nose for them.
I 've had no real problems and those that arose I've sorted out (with the help of a bit of advice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
It's also helped me to learn a little more about computers.
I think the support a PC manufacturer gives you is over-rated. Unless you pay for the engineer call-out cover, I've always found 'telephone support' to be a bit of an oxymoron.
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I have to totally agree with Lephturn.
However, I will put in my own $.02
I bought a Dell, was able to put in pretty much what I wanted (go to the webpage, and customize your computer, or call them. I found them to be very helpful and knowledgeable. WAY different than your average boxed computer company). It has been running pefectly for almost five years now. It doesn't even crash ever. It has run so well, I bought another a few months ago. Sure, my company paid for it, so I couldn't build it myself, and DELL is, in my opinion, the finest computer you can buy. My advice is, if you are going to buy a boxed computer, go with Dell. They put top-end components in their machines, you can pretty much put what you want in there, they will last forever. I opened my new machine up when I got it home, and it is very nice inside. Lots of expansion slots (no PCI, though who needs them anymore) lots of room for more memory (I got 256 megs) the case is excellent, everything is great. I would say, though, that you do need to re-format the hard drive so you get the junk off of it. Dell sends all of the software, so it's very easy to re-install only what you want. I can't say enough good things about dell. You do pay for them, though, and that's where you need to decide if it's possible you have enough knowledge to trust that you will make smart desicions when purchasing components. You will save loads of money, but you need to be careful to get quality components that aren't going to fizz on you in a year, or sooner. It is not worth the money you save if it just craps out all of the time.
If you do end up buying a boxed computer out of a store, I really do not think you will get a good deal, period. You will get screwed, either by paying too much, or with crappy components. The day is gone where you can go out and buy a good machine off the shelf.
Good Luck!
-Greese
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Banex: nothing stops you from installing another OS even to a brand computer.
MrSid.. I've got an HP pavilion box that came loaded with windows ME. HP has done something with the Hard Drive that will not allow any other operating system onto it except the ME that came with the computer. I've formatted, Fdisked, you name it I've tried just about everything I can think of to get 98 on there. If you fdisk and then format.. there is a file of some sort about 4 megs in size on there with garbage characters for a name. And yes I thought it muight be a virus so I got the latest updates for anti-virus and checked.. nope wasn't that either.
If you can find an HP pavilion xl844 and get windows 98 to go on it let me know... I'd much rather have 98 than ME.
Bane
13th TAS
Forgot to add.. in the online documents at HP it even states that it will only accept Windows ME. REad this after many headaches tryin to get the other on there lol.
[This message has been edited by BaneX (edited 04-12-2001).]
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MrSid.. I've got an HP pavilion box that came loaded with windows ME. HP has done something with the Hard Drive that will not allow any other operating system onto it except the ME that came with the computer. I've formatted, Fdisked, you name it I've tried just about everything I can think of to get 98 on there
lo-level it.
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Ammo, if Ozark & I can build machines so can you! Just take the time to do the research ahead of time. Pick the componants carefully,
and if in doubt ask.
Also lots of company's on the net will sell bare bones systems. You pick the Mboard,cpu, & how much ram. They put it into a case, and test it, then ship it. IT arrives, you drop in video, sound, hd, etc and voila. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Do I really want to lo-level format an IDE hard drive... would do it if I could be sure of not damaging the drive.. Don't have the cash right now to replace it.
And where can I find the files I need to do a lo-level format.. I don't have those kinds of utilities.
Bane
13th TAS
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Do I really want to lo-level format an IDE hard drive... would do it if I could be sure of not damaging the drive
No it will not harm it, I have done it do dozens in every size and brand i can think of, when i got my new 27gb drive and windows did not install correctly and I had to format, I did a lo-level and as usual, no harm done..
ya see your commin format doesent really delete the data on the disk..it just IGNORES it sort of...kinda forgets its there and overwrites it.. some companies are starting to sneak crap onto drives that are not deleted with normal formats
A lo-level actually REMOVES the data and the hard disk, it is a TRUE format is returned to the condition it was in out of box..even before Dell/HP/Compaq got a hold of it.
the only way a lo-level can damage a disk is if you lose power in the middle of it or turn off yer machine...but there is even software to recover that now.
Lo-leveling is very SAFE and EFFECTIVE.
look it up and read a bit about it if you are unshure
BTW there are lots of programs out there specifically designed to lo-level certin brand drives..these are good to get, but a generic proggy will probably work just as well.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Packard Bell or Bust (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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I appreciate the good advice from everyone. I think I will build..or have someone build the machine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Looking at parts..seems its still gonna cost me a bunch consindering the quality of parts I want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Mnoitor..$400, Vid Card..$260, Speakers..$120.. Processor...not sure what a Pentium 4 cost but gotta be expensive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ammo
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Ammo....I just went through the same thing...should I buy or build? Go with the T-Bird CPU and forget the P-4....you won't be sorry.
Here are the links when I asked the same questions:
Building my first PC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum10/HTML/000716.html)
Building my first PC..Part2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum10/HTML/000770.html)
I had a blast building it and learned a lot too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Plus, I have a kick prettythang machine that is easy to upgrade too.
Ozark
[This message has been edited by Ozark (edited 04-13-2001).]
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My systems in the past were built from scratch by a small computer business that went out of business about 3 years ago, ever since, I've been doing stuff myself...
I started out small, upgrading components, trading, swapping, etc. Learning more and more each day, especially with the help of this board! The only thing I haven't done is install my own HD or Mobo. I'm slowly working up to that. Next year I plan to build my own system from scratch, basically take a new chip/mobo combo with new HD, and use my existing components (sound card, modem, vid card, CD rom, floppy)...I have a friend that for some Guiness and a good steak can hold my hand doing this.
Price watch is a great website for cost conservatives like me. I've bought some stuff from them lately, and again, this board helped direct me to them!
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<begin rant mode>
Don't let anybody convince you to buy a P4. Do not be swayed by those stupid "blue men." Trust me, that's about the only thing that Intel processors have over AMD anymore; that is better marketing.
A 1.2 Tbird will blow the doors off a 1.5 P4 in 90% of applications. About all the p4 ever wins on is Quake 3 (by a few FPS), and Flask Mpeg 4 encoding. Everything else will be won by the Athlons.
The p4 also has a dump truck full of other issues that would keep me from recommending it at this point. The main one being that the socket the current P4s fit in will be discontinued very soon. This means current P4 users will not be able to upgrade. (P4's in the current style will be the 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.7, and MAYBE the 2.0.) By then the socket will have changed and hopefully Intel will "fix" the P4 to the white paper specifications and make it as fast as it should be.
Other reasons for not buying a P4 include the need for a special: Case, RAM, power supply, & MB design.
To top it all off, they are slower and cost far more than the Athlons.
Intel knows, unfortunately correctly, that the average consumer equates clock speed alone with the performance of a processor. To this end they basically built what amounts to a 1 liter 3 cylinder Geo metro engine that can rev up to 10000 rpm, as opposed to the big beefy big block Chevy 454 that is the Athlon. Even though the Athlon doesn't "rev" as high, it's much more powerful than that Geo. (Even a 1 Gig P3 can beat the 1.3 and 1.4 P4s in more than 1/2 the benchmarks.)
<end rant mode (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) >
Oh yeah, back on topic, have you or someone else build you an Athlon Thunderbird system. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
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Thx Oz, I am up for it, and am now starting the "new moster machine fund" at the house (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok..So does everyone agree that the intel chip is inferior to the KMD chip? I am soo behind the times because I thought that the it was the other way around, I just always thought that the Intel chip was cutting edge, state of the art, etc...
Maybe it is a testament to their multi-million $ marketing campaign (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
opinions?
ammo
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What Bloom said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Intel chips are fine and are excellent performers. AMD has recently managed to catch and surpass Intel recently with their "Athlon" CPU. The Athlon Thunderbird is just a newer version of that Athlon that has on-die L2 cache and is a socket form factor.
When it comes to the P4 and the Tbird, the 1.2 is about equal the 1.5 P4. The difference is that the P4 requires special components and is literally 2x the price. The 1.33 Athlon Tbird IS the most powerful processor available to home PC users. Sure, you can always find benchmarks that show the P4 as being faster, but the same goes for the Athlon. In AH the Athlon would win, hands down. This holds true for most applications, the Athlon is faster by at least 10% or so.
You don't have to take just my word for it, look at:
(Watch for the Unreal Tournament and Expendable benchmarks, they are DX based games like AH. These 2 would be the closest comparison available between Athlon and P4. The Athlon will dominate in these 2 benchmarks, I guarantee it.)
The 1.3 & 1.33 Athlons
http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010322/index.html (http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010322/index.html)
You can easily see here what the true story is concerning the P4 and the Athlon. The Athlon wins most of the benchmarks, and costs less than the P4.
Need more proof, ok. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Here's Tom's Article when the P4 first came out.
http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/00q4/001120/index.html (http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/00q4/001120/index.html)
Notice that the 1.2 Athlon is often able to beat the P4, even when the P4 is overclocked to 1.728 GHz!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 1 gig P3 even beats the P4 @ 1.6 GHz!
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bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
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Here's the article from Anandtech when the P4 came out. http://www2.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=1 (http://www2.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=1)
Anandtech has been very pro-Intel in the past, but even Anand has a hard time telling anyone to buy a P4. Make sure you read the whole article. The P4 consistently loses in all benchmarks except Q3 arena and one particular OpenGl benchmark. You should also consider that the 1.33 Athlon was not out at the time of this review, so the Athlon is even farther ahead of the P4 at this time.
I can't stress highly enough just how big a mistake it is to buy a P4 right now. Hypothetically, even if it did perform better than the Athlon (which it doesn't), why would you buy a processor that cannot be upgraded 2 months from now?
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bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
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Bloom, I do thank you sir (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I am sold.
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Ammo, build yer own bud. The big PC companies don't cater to gamers' needs very well. They tend to throw in a bunch of crap you don't need or skimp on essential parts. The best way to get top notch on the stuff that matters to you is to build it yourself. You've already got a PC so just gradually upgrade parts on it--a power supply here, a motherboard/cpu/ram there, a video card--oh wait you already did that one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Eventually you'll have enough spare parts to build a box for your kids while you get the hot-rod gaming box.
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I just read an article about the fake power consumption rating in P4..
Intel specs say its about 52 watts. Real life performance tests show that it's really 74 watts.. What Intel did to overcome that problem? They included a nifty utility to drop every second clock cycle in times of peak stress (reducing the actual clocks to 750..) to keep the power consumption within spec.
That's probably why the P4 shines on paper but sucks on stress tests. If this is true, I fail to see the point of releasing the whole cpu =)
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-ammo-, should you choose to build your own before you buy anything get yourself a good ground strap and always wear it while touching anything to do with your computer, nothing worse than looking at all the cool stuff your hard work has bought and then find out it doesnt work after you fire it up due to an ESD discharge, get your power supply in hook your ground strap to the frame of the case and your ready to start building, you'll have to plug your power supply A/C cord into a wall socket to pick up your house ground return, a lotta folks pooh pooh ESD but I have seen it do its dirty work all to often working in component engineering, you may not even feel a static shock but you may unwittingly blow up your cpu handling it while your body is ungrounded, so do yourself a great big favor right off the bat!
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I'll build ya one.
Tell me what you want: I'll find you the lowest priced parts, assemble, install OS, and desired software, test and burn in for 12 hours, and ship it to your door.
Email me if you are interested. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Viper
sales@siteviper.com