Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunthr on July 19, 2000, 08:58:00 AM
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Hillary Clinton let her false face slip in front of witnesses when she referred to someone as a "Jew bastard". Hopefully, New Yorkers can now make a more informed decision in the voting booth.
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Recently, both Al Gore and George W. Bush were asked if they would allow a pregnant woman on death row to be executed...
Bush answered immediately, "Absolutely not." "I would not allow the death of an innocent child in order to execute the mother, that would be wrong." (paraphrase)
Staunchly pro-abortion Al Gore choked on the question. (He faced the delemna of either admitting that the unborn child was a human life after all by not allowing the execution, or if he allowed the execution, being seen as ruthlessly allowing an innocent to die along with the mother.
Gore's answer? "Let me think about this interesting question."
Is there any doubt which man should be President of the United States of America?
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I was convinced that Gore was a buffoon when I read his book, it should be required reading for all Americans so they can identify a buffoon when they read about him...he stated in regards to forest deforestation (not word for word, but you get my meaning..) "One tree is certainly not worth a human life, however when you start discussing 2 or 3 trees, then it is a matter you have to seriously start considering"
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Okay you right-wing gun-toting fascists, I'll bite. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
First off I don't care much for either candidate. There's no real leadership. All you hear during the campaign is a bunch of back-and-forth dysfunctional whining.
I do find Bush the scarier of the two however, because of his fundamentalist Christian ideology that is so hypocritical that it would be funny if it weren't so sad.
He'll defend to his last breath the rights of some unformed, unborn fetus then think nothing of executing a man or a women even though killing a human being goes against his own Christian commandments!
I find Bush the man to be uninspiring and his politics archaic. He's an automation with a corporate logo stamped on his ass.
Sorry fellas but I'll have to go with the lesser of two evils on this one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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We're definitely not picking between two highly qualified candidates.
Talk to some people in the service, active duty, guard or reserve. Four more years of Clintonian Defense measures and we won't HAVE a military.
Bosnia is stretching us pretty thin right now. Imagine that...a little police action. Absolutely no way we could come up with 1/2 the combat-ready troops we had for Desert Storm.
It's as bad now as it was at the end of Carter's tour. That's when I bugged out in disgust. Preparedness was essentially zero. Supply was a big, empty warehouse. Maintenance had no people but that was OK because Supply had no parts. Couldn't shoot real bullets in practice, couldn't afford to.
When the Koreans killed the two Army officers on the DMZ during the tree cutting incident, the 18th TFW flexed from Okinawa to Korea with all their F-4's...well, all that would fly. They had ONE plane load of ord. When they shot the missles that were on the rails, they were OUT of missiles.
Yeah, the lesser of two evils for sure.
Bush for sure. Not that I'm happy about it.
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Yep, agree with part of what you say Blur, though the Christian part never has bothered me, even though I am God-fearing, I am not a deeply religious man.
Bottom line: Vote the issues, not the party.
Abortion should never have been dragged into the political ring IMO. It only has created even more dissention between the parties.
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My $0.02 worth. Blur, what Commandment are you refering to? If it is the one "Thou Shalt Not Kill", that is not the actual text. The Commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Murder". 2 very different meanings.
Be that as it may, since we really don't get a choice other than the 2 we have, not counting the Independant parties candidates, I have to choose between an idiot & a millionaire.
Hmmm
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Ripsnort:
I gotta agree with blur on this one about Bush. As a foreigner, I really don't want an idiot like this running the most powerful country on earth. I can see him with a sledge hammer working the wall that separates the church and the state.
Why the hell didn't McBain win the GOP election instead? Then we didn't have to worry about some Christian hypocritical pretty dumb guy sitting with the key to nukes.
As far as the Hillary comment, I hear it was made by one who've previously discredited that woman based on nothing.
I don't like any one of the three, but I must say that I would hesitate to put someone in power who believes an invisible deity raped an earthling, and without intercourse caused her to produce a bastard child who thought it would be good if everyone got along, and got nailed to a piece of wood for it.
Oops, that sounded sacriligeous. But after rereading it, while it is offensive, it sort of is true, no? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) And I have a nick to live up to.
<pets favourite lion, becomes nostalgic about the good Roman days>
Politicians aren't fit for office. Those that are never run for it and for good reasons. The American way of voting - i.e on the person, not the politics, is also becoming more and more of a factor here. Quite frankly, I think people are turning more and more shallow and and egoistic day by day, and that the attention span has gone down the drain.
Enough for me, I am now bored and will flip channels for 20 minutes, and will ignore my neighbors when they complain about the noise level. What do they know, they're ugly.
Heh, inflammatory posting. Think I might have a new hobby.
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Whew Santa, ain't gonna touch that one!
<S> to all, we are all unique with our own individual opinions, none are right, none are wrong, all are different.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
<snip>
...who believes an invisible deity raped an earthling, and without intercourse caused her to produce a bastard child who thought it would be good if everyone got along, and got nailed to a piece of wood for it.
<snip>
Actually, and I'm not really trying to defend Christianity here, but all religions and myths are in truth metaphorical in that they symbolize the individual's journey through life, namely YOU. The problem comes about when this stuff is taken too literally.
Having said that Santa, I believe your version of the virgin birth is the most succinct and down-to-earth I've ever read. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Rip, your last post sounds disturbingly like a…well…err.. you know…POLITICIAN! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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I'd rather have an idiot that thinks things over (aka GORE) than the hypocrit that responds what the public expects to hear just to get the votes (aka, Bush).
Hillary? Geez, haven't we had enough of the Clintons???
Pepe le Pew for President! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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lol Tac, I didn't say which one was which (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
They are both millionaires.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 07-19-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Ripsnort:
I gotta agree with blur on this one about Bush. As a foreigner, I really don't want an idiot like this running the most powerful country on earth. I can see him with a sledge hammer working the wall that separates the church and the state.
Please name one example where Gov. Bush has done this. He's been my Govenor for about 6 or 7 years and I can't remember one instance of him trying to beat down the wall between church and state. Seperation of the church and state is a myth anyway. It's not in our constitution. (i'll read it again tonight to be sure it's not in there)
Why the hell didn't McBain win the GOP election instead? Then we didn't have to worry about some Christian hypocritical pretty dumb guy sitting with the key to nukes.[/QUOTE]
Beause he's not a true conservative and the republian party saw this.
As far as the Hillary comment, I hear it was made by one who've previously discredited that woman based on nothing.
I don't like any one of the three, but I must say that I would hesitate to put someone in power who believes an invisible deity raped an earthling, and without intercourse caused her to produce a bastard child who thought it would be good if everyone got along, and got nailed to a piece of wood for it.
Oops, that sounded sacriligeous. But after rereading it, while it is offensive, it sort of is true, no? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) And I have a nick to live up to.[/QUOTE]
I hesitate to put anybody in power who has lied to me consistantly for 8 years. "No controling legal authority" HAHA what a joke. As far as religeon, some of us religeous types have a hard time believing that all this is just a result of random collisions of atoms and what not. That's the beautiful thing about our constitution though, they can't make any laws telling me what to believe (yet).
Bush has been my govenor as long as comrad clinton has been blur's president (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) There is no person running that would be better for the job IMHO. He's done well here in Tx.
If Gore wins I'm moving to Australia...
Politicians aren't fit for office. Those that are never run for it and for good reasons. The American way of voting - i.e on the person, not the politics, is also becoming more and more of a factor here. Quite frankly, I think people are turning more and more shallow and and egoistic day by day, and that the attention span has gone down the drain.[/QUOTE]
On this we are in 100% complete agreament (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Enough for me, I am now bored and will flip channels for 20 minutes, and will ignore my neighbors when they complain about the noise level. What do they know, they're ugly.
[/QUOTE]
I think this is one of the biggest problems of the USA, appethy. The only thing anybody cares about is MONEY and their own lives. Guess i'm guilty of this too. What to do, I personaly think it's too late. The world is in for a big wake up call soon, i bet. I bet the polititians from the 1910's and 1930's were alot like the ones of today. Hence ww1 and ww2. I doubt anybody in power learned any lessons from the first 2, they seem to me to be making the same mistakes anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Udie
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Oh c'mon, Tac...
How much thinkin' does it take to decide whether or not to execute a pregnant woman on death row?
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Tac,
Name one instance where Bush has waffled on any issue. Name one issue where Bush has changed his mind to the apposing side of view. Then tell me how Bush has made a hiporit of himself, please.
Now, name me 1 issue that Gore hasn't flip flopped on. Algore is the hipocrit, throough and through. He's erogant, condasending, a liar and deserves to be in prison, not the white house.
BTW Tac, Blur or any other left wing AH fliers, I'll still drink w/ ya at the con. Don't think that I don't like any of you because of your politial views. True I will probobly enjoy shooting y'all down a little more but I will never hold your misguided political views agains any of you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) j/k (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
still friends? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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be advised, lack of food does this to Udie, some POW syndrome.
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Blur:
Your Liberal-Socialist/Pavlovian-brainwashing is showing. You a product of the US Public Schools by any chance??
Gore/Hillary will get creamed in November.
I can't wait.
Cabby
(Right Wing-Gun Totin'-Christian-Red Neck)
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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Your Liberal-Socialist/Pavlovian-brainwashing is showing. You a product of the US Public Schools by any chance??
It is funny; it is always the other side who has been brainwashed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Personally, I am a European liberal. We use the word in the opposite way here; here a liberal is one going for a quite small state, free trade, less regulations and so forth.
But I bet you still consider me a pinko commie for living in a country with a strong state, huge taxes and very well developed welfare system.
Because I attended public schools and have been brainwashed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Well, at least I didn't bite into the mythology cake, like so many others (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But, that is likely because I was brainwashed.
Heh, this thread is amusing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<eats chips>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hey, everyone in this thread would enjoy Rush Limbaugh!!! 12 noon eastern time.
I think you can hear him at www.rushlimbaugh.com (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com)
Listen to him for 6 weeks and tell me what ya think.
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Originally posted by cabby:
<snip>
Your Liberal-Socialist/Pavlovian-brainwashing is showing. You a product of the US Public Schools by any chance??
<snip>
LOL Cabby. I did the one the thing that ALL governments secretly fear the most: I grew a BRAIN!!!
In the end it will be free-thinking individuals who'll save the world: persons not aligned with any government, corporation or ideology.
Amen.
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Quote:
"In the end it will be free-thinking individuals who'll save the world: persons not aligned with any government, corporation or ideology.
What the Hell does that mean??? Kinda smug, ain't ya?? Look up the word "hubris" in the dictionary. BTW, i came from the "factory" with a "brain" already installed. It took years of experience to sort the wheat from the chaff.
In other words, "free-thinking" is often a euphemism for "Bulls***".
Cabby
"The World needs saving from those who would save the World".
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"In the end it will be free-thinking individuals who'll save the world: persons not aligned with any government, corporation or ideology."
What the Hell does that mean??? Kinda smug, ain't ya?? Look up the word "hubris" in the dictionary. BTW, i came from the "factory"
with a "brain" already installed. It took years of experience to sort the wheat from the chaff.
In other words, "free-thinking" is often a euphemism for "Bulls***".
It is hubris to think oneself a freethinker? Methinks the Christian "stay humble" people did a good job at brainwashing you there.
As far as freethinkers being roadkillters, here's a definition:
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
Freethinker \Free"think`er\, n.
One who speculates or forms opinions independently of the authority of others; esp., in the sphere or religion, one who
forms opinions independently of the authority of revelation or of the church; an unbeliever; -- a term assumed by deists and skeptics in the eighteenth century.
Being a member of humanist and freethinker organisations myself, I can only say that it doesn't take much to be one, it isn't hubris to claim to be one, and while there is roadkill, the skeptical approach weed out most of the BS.
As far as the brain; it's a tool everyone come with. Some learn to use it skillfully, others do not. In essence, a person with a lower IQ than someone else would be quite capable of outwitting his opponent. Then again, the measurement of IQ is debatable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Are all cabby's this angry?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Cabby I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you're a fundamentalist Christian of one denomination or another. I say this because of your anger.
If I may I'd like to pose a few questions:
What are you so angry about? Is it a cherished belief that you feel is being attacked? If it is then who instilled such a belief? Was it some sort of religious brainwashing that took place when you were growing up? Was it some teaching about pride and the sinful self? If you were born a Hindu would you still have such beliefs? Are any beliefs really "you"?
Keep in mind that the church finds it easier to keep its coffers full by removing self respect from the members of its flock and replacing it with bunch of crippled psyches convinced of their sin and unworthiness.
Beliefs, beliefs, beliefs, people have been killed, maimed, tortured and humiliated over beliefs. I try to have as few as possible. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Man, you guys seem to be downing the church a lot. Why would ya wanna do that?
I was raised in a baptist church. I don't think I'm scarred for life for it either. Granted, there are people in every congregation that are over the edge, but isn't this true everywhere? Seems anytime you see the republican party or christians in general represented on CNN, etc. they are refered to as 'right wing'. When was the last time ya heard the term 'left wing'? Are there not people on the extreme left?
Kinda tells ya something about whos doing the reporting, don't it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I will continue to be a backwards thinking conservative fella, even if its unpopular. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I saw the Larry King interview with GW Bush and his wife last night. I was very impressed. Especially when contrasted against a recent Al Gore interview on NPR.
Gore comes across as a very shallow spirit. Although I trust he is a far better soul than William Jefferson Clinton will ever be, Al Gore simply seems too calculated, too supressing in his demeanor, too drivin by an obviously external need to self promote.
Yes, I will cast my vote towards honesty and faith and the belief that we are a nation of states united by a common thread of decency and self responsibility, not divided by race, tobbaco, guns, socio-economic injustices and supremely bettered by an ancient, fractured, post-historic Europe.
Im tired of these past 8 years...very tired.
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-21-2000).]
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It seems to me that "free" thinkers who are supposedly open minded have closed their minds to any ideas which contradict their own, regardless of evidence or truth. This creates a religion or ideology based only on what a person chooses to believe, rather than a belief system based on truth and historical evidence.
Not every "religious" person is like the television evangelists or the medieval priests and bishops that try to sell you "salvation". I would say that most of us are doing our best to live as Christ, and failing miserably. But we are trying.
Please do some research for yourself rather than repeating rhetoric you cling to because it is convenient and guilt-free. To save you some time, look for any book by Josh McDowell, Hank Hannegraff, or C.S. Lewis; and read with an open mind. Each of these are well educated men who have searched for themselves and found that the Bible stands up to vicious scrutiny. Or go the whole nine yards and learn ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, learn the history and culture of the areas where the Bible originated, and then decide what you believe.
Go to a local church and ask the pastor whose research he respects and check it out for yourself. Go to a university and ask a history/psychology/religion professor for their opinions and what Christians in their field they respect and why.
Do your own "free" thinking.
LuckyDay
(I suppose a "flames of hell" joke wouldn't work here... even if it had a smiley? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
[This message has been edited by LuckyDay (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Hmmm could society be gearing up for a reverse-spanish inquesition? Seems like a lot of people hate Christians now, and I mean realy HATE. I've had great conversations w/ people who call themselves open minded only to have them walk away in disgust when they find out I'm a Christian.
It's sad realy. We're taught evolution in school, the teacher wasn't even allowed to say creationism. Then I'm told that evolution is science and fact and that religeon is just faith w/ no proof of God's true existance. It seems to me that both are faiths.
I have yet to see ANYTHING evolve. They showed me a bunch of skeletons in high school, and said they had died 1000's of years ago. How do they know this for sure? Carbon 14? Sorry that doesn't do it for me. Nobody was alive 1000 years ago to PROVE that the creature died then. Nobody was alive 1,000,000 years ago to prove that anything was alive back then.
Do people actualy think this whole universe is just a random chance of occurance? that life began when 2 molocules accidentaly collided at the presise moment lightning hit some swamp 60,000,000,000 years ago? then through evolution formed the BILLIONS and BILLIONS of cells that make up any lifeform? Think about the human brain. TRILLIONS of cells, each know's where it belongs and it's job (provided good DNA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) This is random? natural selection? Sorry that's too much of a leap of FAITH for me.
The bible says God created the Earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. People think well that's just crazy and you are stupid for believing that. Who said that 1 day to God equals 1 day to us? I don't know myself that's where my faith kicks in. Maybe God told the molocules where and when to collide? Maybe God willed evolution on the first 6 days? Eve came from Adams rib, she evovled from him?
Truethfuly, I have no idea. I'm just a confused little squirrel trying to get my nut before my evil government comes to get it's cut. Believe what you want to, I have no problem with that. I only know that the lessons taught in the bible have held true in my life and my family.
My late grandmother read the bible for 70 years. She told me that she learned something new each time she read it. At the very least, the bible can be used as an excellent blueprint of how to raise a family and how to have a succesful life. Here's 2 concepts that live through out the bible, Peace and Love. Do they sound so evil?
Udie
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You said it Udie.....
One quick question...has anyone EVER seen the term 'left-wing extremist' used ANYWHERE in the media?
And another thing, since the late 1800's money has run this country like never before. Our so-called representatives are just pawns in a large monopoly game which is being played by those who control the money. Washington DC and its overstuffed bank accounts calls the shots like it or not. Why do you think we had a civil war? It wasn't over the slave issue, it was about who was going to run the country, the states (as it should be) or the fed's. Well guess who won? Heres a hint: a few years back Nevada raised their speed limits over 55MPH...and the feds promised to withhold a boatload of federal funds,which the state had gotten used to having,if they did not change it back..Nevada caved in. This same thing goes on all the time, in government, in schools...in every part of our lives. The feds control the purse strings like it or not.
I have never agreed with any politician 100 percent, so I am forced to vote for the one I agree with the most. I lived in California when Reagan was Governer and regardless of what is being said today, he IS responsible for our current prosperity. California, by itself as a nation back then, would have been the 3rd wealthiest nation on earth. What did he do that was so special? He took as much of the government out of our lives as he could and ran the state independently as a business. He tried to do the same back in the 80's with the whole country but was limited by a democratically controlled house and senate. But the results from what he WAS able to accomplish are still apparent even today. The only thing clinton has been able to increase the market value on were those cigars that he uhh..'smoked'. And when Jerry Brown took over as Governer he put back most of what Reagan took away and added even MORE government. California has been in the red ever since.
Ok brain is moving faster than fingers so I'll quit. I guess what I'm saying is simply this; don't vote for a politician when there is a businessman availiable. A politician looks in the mirror to see how he looks...a business man uses a ledger. At least with the businessman you almost always know where he stands. My gut tells me to throw them ALL out, burn it to the ground and start over, but we can't have that now can we. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I guess I'll just have to keep voting and hoping one day we find a way to put back the individual responsibility that left this country some 40 years ago. *sigh*
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Who's angry??? I just call a "spade" a "spade". "Humanist" my a**. I've been listening to Liberal BS for 40 years. I'm tired. I'm tired of the so-called "enlightened", macro-philosophical garbage that's so routinely passed off as the "Truth" by so many "experts".
I'm also tired of the Clintons, Gore, Oprah, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, Larry King, Geraldo, Rather, Nader, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Democrats, GreenPeace, Sierra Club, ACLU, and the many, many other yammering-yahoo Liberal "pundits" be-fouling the atmosphere with their constant alarmist-whining.
The vacuous, race-baiting, Class Warfare pandering, Al Gore will be creamed in November and i can't wait.
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 07-21-2000).]
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Hey Cabby, don't forget Ted Kennedy.
I'm pretty tired of that guy too.
Gunthr
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Luckyday wrote this:
It seems to me that "free" thinkers who are supposedly open minded have closed their minds to any ideas which contradict their own, regardless of evidence or truth.
Then my friend you have either misunderstood the word freethinker, or are using a different definition than I am (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This creates a religion or ideology based only on what a person chooses to believe, rather than a belief system based on truth and historical evidence.
Hm, I'd say I have no religion or ideology. Claiming non theism is a religion is like claiming bald is a hair colour. The ideology I come closest to adhering to would be hedonism, i.e the pursuit of pleasure as an ethical principle, with the golden rule applying, of course.
I am not sure which belief you refer to as truth and "historical evidence", but I gather it is Christianity. To me, it is a valid belief. As is all other religious beliefs, including Asatru and belief in the Invisible Pink Unicorn. But, the fact of the matter is many beliefs are based on on faith, and faith is belief in that which is not proven or belief in something despite available evidence pointing to the contrary. I am not a fan of faith, as it is a cheap crutch, a shortcut and intellectually dishonest. To me, that is. For others, it is rewarding, gives a sense of security and provide answers in areas of life where answers are hard to get to. With "intellectual dishonest" I mean that I cannot get myself to have faith in anything - it just feels like I am lying to myself. Yes, I have hopes and expectations, but not religious faith. When I go skydive, I expect the main to fail and hope the reserve will save my butt. I do not have faith it will; I just hope for it.
Not every "religious" person is like the television evangelists or the medieval priests and bishops that try to sell you
"salvation". I would say that most of us are doing our best to live as Christ, and failing miserably. But we are trying.
Thank god for that. The thing that is a little saddening to me, however, is that the Christian mythology seem to emphazise how lowly and unworthy we are as humans - how far we fall short. I'm an optimist and elect to see the positive side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Please do some research for yourself rather than repeating rhetoric you cling to because it is convenient and guilt-free.
My lack of beliefs are anything but convenient and guilt free. I have no answers premade for me; on each and every moral and ethical matter, I must trust my own judgement. I must as good as I can weight all the available evidence and compare it to a personal moral that is continually worked upon. Each and every time something new comes up, I must be ready to admit my mistakes and integrate the new knowledge into how I see the world, or destroy the old way of seeing things. There is no sweet afterlife to me; this is a pity, as I have the same fear of not living the Christian has. Just a consequence of evolution no amount of intellectualizing can change. When a loved one is hurt or dies, I cannot be comforted by the idea that he or she is in a better place. Nor is there real justice; it is a concept that needs to be worked towards, but there is no great book which keeps the balance. I could go on, but you get the picture. It is quite a bleak world, unless you, as the current generation of emerging non theists, have a positive outlook on life and humanity as a whole. Luckily, lately I have had just that.
You choose answers and strict rules to live and measure your "success" by. The alternative, unexamined as it is, is just as hard. Not as restrictive, but just as hard.
To save you some time, look for any book by Josh McDowell, Hank Hannegraff, or C.S. Lewis; and read with an open mind. Each of these are well educated men who have searched for themselves and found that the Bible stands up to vicious scrutiny.
I've read two of those writers, McDowell and Lewis. But I find it logical that Christians will find the bible to be true - after all, Christian belief states that the bible is the work of god (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Or go the whole nine yards and learn ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, learn the history and culture of the areas where the Bible originated, and then decide what you believe.
Well, the translated versions are close enough for me to get a gist of what they're talking about.
Go to a local church and ask the pastor whose research he respects and check it out for yourself. Go to a university and ask a history/psychology/religion professor for their opinions and what Christians in their field they respect and why.
The latter I have done. There is quite a number of books out there about the psychology of Christianity. However, most aren't seen upon kindly with the eyes of conservative Christians.
Do your own "free" thinking.
Way ahead of ya bud (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
(I suppose a "flames of hell" joke wouldn't work here... even if it had a smiley? )
{/quote]
Heh, any deity that had the nerve to create the universe as it is, and then not help a poor critter out would not get my help, even with free will. Besides, Hell is a place in Norway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie, as far as evolution goes, it's just change of allele frequency in a population over time. It can actually be seen in bacteria with very short life span. http://www.talkorigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org) has lots of info on it. Alternatively, any book by Richard Dawkins is a delight to read.
Not saying this is the way it is; just saying that available scientific evidence points very strongly in this direction. Of course, we could stay up all night arguing about the precision of science and the tenets it rests upon.
Cabby: you're right. Since I like discussions, where progress is actually made rather than arguments where both side vehemently stick to their guns, I have no further reply to you. Other than lighten up dude, stop being so cynical and take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Ye call blur and me liars without even knowing us. We've grown up in different cultures but come to the same conclusions about certain issues, but to you that is brainwashing and BS. Must be the New World Order.
Geesh, I respect Christians as people. I just find the Christian belief rather unlikely personally. Separate the religious beliefs from the man is one of the keys to some kind stable relationship where respect can be found.
Heh, this is just my kind of thread. Wish I had more time to reply, but I have to go to Sweden in about five minutes.
Will write really long responses when I get back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Btw, there are left wing extremists. We call them commie bastards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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This is a good discussion. Thanks for your balanced and non-combative response. I will attempt the same.
I am not sure which belief you refer to as truth and "historical evidence", but I gather it is Christianity. To me, it is a valid belief. As is all other religious beliefs, including Asatru and belief in the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
Although the study of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is intriguing (how do we know it is pink?), unfortunately the Unicorn did not leave us a set of books detailing his involvement in the human race. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I would find it “intellectually dishonest” to have a personal moral that is based on nothing more than my own judgment.
I have no answers premade for me; on each and every moral and ethical matter, I must trust my own judgement. I must as good as I can weight all the available evidence and compare it to a personal moral that is continually worked upon.
This sounds to me like it is a religion; a religion of self. The truth is, there is an absolute right and wrong. I know this is an unpopular idea in today’s society, but relativism (for example: that’s fine for you but not for me, that may be wrong for you but not for me) has got us to the point where nobody can agree on the lines between right and wrong anymore. The problem is that humans are not inherently good, but inherently bad. But these lines are clearly drawn in the Bible.
The thing that is a little saddening to me, however, is that the Christian mythology seem to emphazise how lowly and unworthy we are as humans - how far we fall short. I'm an optimist and elect to see the positive side .
Mythology is not the right word here. I understand why you are using it, but it is a far different case than Roman or Greek or Viking mythology. Their societies crumbled after a few hundred years and have been followed by others. I don’t know that anyone still believes that Zeus, Apollo, Hercules, Diana, or Thor actually exist. Christianity has outlived the radical changes in the World’s societies, and it was born out of Judaism, which began when Moses brought the tablets from Mt. Sinai thousands of years before that. Ask any ancient historian if Moses (or Jesus for that matter) was a real person.
Humans were never created to be gods. We have tried to raise ourselves to that level for centuries and always fail. The positive side is that although we fail there is a means of redemption – a rescue from the bleak inerrancy that when you die, that is the end of your existence.
I've read two of those writers, McDowell and Lewis. But I find it logical that Christians will find the bible to be true - after all, Christian belief states that the bible is the work of god .
Actually C.S Lewis was not a Christian until he began a study to disprove the Bible and discount Christianity.
Not saying this is the way it is; just saying that available scientific evidence points very strongly in this direction. Of course, we could stay up all night arguing about the precision of science and the tenets it rests upon.
I have done a bit of study on this recently. As Udie said, doesn’t it take a larger leap of faith to try to disprove the existence of God with a theory loosely based in natural phenomenon (the changing of allele frequency in a population over time) than to believe that the order we see in nature came from a higher intelligence than a natural phenomenon? Life came from amino acids coming together in precisely the right way at precisely the right time?
Forget about the missing links... how many evolutions would it take for a single bacteria cell to mutate its own cell wall or a protein transport system for energy from the thousands of strings of thousands of specifically ordered proteins that “somehow” formed precisely in the required fashion? How many billions of cells died until a method of reproduction evolved? To even get to the stage where an animal needs a method of respiration, let alone a brain, instincts, sight, hearing, touch, you have to put a blindfold on.
Available scientific evidence does NOT support this idea.
Heh, any deity that had the nerve to create the universe as it is, and then not help a poor critter out would not get my help, even with free will. Besides, Hell is a place in Norway.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
He helped all us poor critters. He created a perfect world that we had to go and screw up by using our free will to destroy ourselves. That scripture may be overused, but I am sure you are familiar with it and it applies directly here.
Never been to Norway – grandparents are Swedish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hi, am back prematurely due to poor weather and a bee sting to my foot which resulted in an allergic reaction that has grounded me for at least five days.
A nice discussion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Although the study of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is intriguing (how do we know it is pink?), unfortunately the Unicorn did not leave us a set of books detailing his involvement in the human race.
Ah, but it has. Written by humans, much liek the bible, under divine influence of the IPU. it is called "The Babble", but is relatively unknown because it didn't become the huge bestseller the Bible did. To say it in other words; it is circular to say that the bible says god exist and god created the bible. It's a fallacious logical argument; I could just as easily apply it to the Babble (qwork in progress due to dwindling sales numbers).
I would find it “intellectually dishonest” to have a personal moral that is based on nothing more than my own judgment.
How can it be so? You have to evaluate each and every situation; there is no clear cut answer. Every time, you must weight available evidence and be able to logically defend your point of view.- There is no references to something final. No "goddidit" or "thebiblesaysso". This, I think, encourages the release of the potential of the human mind, helps advancement and at least works to defeat dogma that is unsound.
This sounds to me like it is a religion; a religion of self.
There is no dogma, there are no rules. There is no deity, and formality has been thrown out the window. All the characteristics of a cult or a religion are shining with their absence. What it can be said to be is an ideology, but that is stretching it quite far, since the question remain: what is the ideology about? More is it a set of questions and one basic tenet: question, and base your facts on available evidence and logically sound arguments, and at least you will be able to defend them. They might or might not be right, but no one will be able to say that they are not justified. In cases where you do not have justifiable belief, state so and hold an opinion.
[/quote]
The truth is, there is an absolute right and wrong.
I would be very interested in seeing some absolute bad and good things?
I know this is an unpopular idea in today’s society, but relativism (for example: that’s fine for you but not for me, that may be wrong for you but not for me) has got us to the point where nobody can agree on the lines between right and wrong anymore. The problem is that humans are not inherently good, but inherently bad. But these lines are clearly drawn in the Bible.
Ah, you might mistake me for a moral relativist. I am not. I am a relativist in many senses, but not in the moral one. My morals are based on available evidence, science and logic. Of course, the moral issues have long confounded the great thinkers and I am really not the person to say I have the ultimate one; what I can say is that I can defend my moral standpoint logically and point to evidence supporting it.
As far as I know, all moral systems currently in existance are flawed in some ways and picking the gold bits from each that are justifiable is the way to go. With regards to the bible, there are several moral standpoints I disagree with, like the take on homosexuality and equality, but I will not debate them here. Just want a general discussion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Mythology is not the right word here. I understand why you are using it, but it is a far different case than Roman or Greek or Viking mythology. Their societies crumbled after a few hundred years and have been followed by others. I don’t know that anyone still believes that Zeus, Apollo, Hercules, Diana, or Thor actually exist. Christianity has outlived the radical changes in the World’s societies, and it was born out of Judaism, which began when Moses brought the tablets from Mt. Sinai thousands of years before that. Ask any ancient historian if Moses (or Jesus for that matter) was a real person.
Well, if wew were to judge religions vs mythologies based on how long they have existed, Christianity really is a mythology. It is a mere 2000 years old. Tribal societies have existed for eons with basically the same religious belief. Furthermore, to suggest Christianity has no adapted and changed wheverver it has spread would be wrong; we do no longer hunt witches, for instance.
Humans were never created to be gods. We have tried to raise ourselves to that level for centuries and always fail. The positive side is that although we fail there is a means of redemption – a rescue from the bleak inerrancy that when you die, that is the end of your existence.
Hm, I never aspired to be a god. All the people I've met haven't either as far as I know. I am quite content with being human; for I have a magificent mind and the most capable brain in the whole of the animal kingdom as far as we know (I as a homo sapiens sapiens, that is). I do not fail; I experience, learn and move on. This one life I have has no room for failures; setbacks, aye, but to me, the only failure possible is *not living in the present* because I want a possible, but unlikely reward in the afterlife. An unexamined life is not worth living and all that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Actually C.S Lewis was not a Christian until he began a study to disprove the Bible and discount Christianity.
Interesting. What books did he write prior to becoming a Christian?
I have done a bit of study on this recently. As Udie said, doesn’t it take a larger leap of faith to try to disprove the existence of God with a theory loosely based in natural phenomenon (the changing of allele frequency in a population over time) than to believe that the order we see in nature came from a higher intelligence than a natural phenomenon? Life came from amino acids coming together in precisely the right way at precisely the right time? Forget about the missing links... how many evolutions would it take for a single bacteria cell to mutate its own cell wall or a protein transport system for energy from the thousands of strings of thousands of specifically ordered proteins that “somehow” formed precisely in the required fashion? How many billions of cells died until a method of reproduction evolved? To even get to the stage where an animal needs a method of respiration, let alone a brain,instincts, sight, hearing, touch, you have to put a blindfold on. Available scientific evidence does NOT support this idea.
Hm, it does. I belive it is called accumulated change. It's an established fact in the world of biology. A book for the layman dealing with it is The Selfish Gene bu Richard Dawkins. It explains it more eloquently than I can. If a mo in depth scientific understanding is needed, he and his colleagues has it. Again, for starters, the website I referred to is quite good. It answers the "this is unlikely!" argument.
But just for a good mudslinging debate; you are saying that this is unlikely, but it is more likely that an infinitely more complex being created it all?
;D
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him shall have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
He bloody well had to, didn't he? I mean, it is akin to me pushing you off a boat and then offering to save you. Should you express gratitude towards me for my most warm and heartening deed?
And, as a sidenote, this particular bit from the bible has always amused me. God interferes with a woman on earth without her consent, produce a human baby, let his creation do its thing and then have his son rejoined with him in heaven, and then we are supposed to see it as a loss to him?
Seen from my point of view, it would be akin to sending my son down to say a group of monkeys, have them ridicule him a bit and then take my son back, provide him with a shotgun and say "shoot 'um when you have the shot, if you feel inclined to" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Is jesus dead? The historical person certainly is. But it seems to me Christian dogma (or maybe scripture is a less offensive word? Pardon my English from time to time) is quite certain he is not.
He helped all us poor critters. He created a perfect world that we had to go and screw up by using our free will to destroy ourselves. That scripture may be overused, but I am sure you are familiar with it and it applies directly here.
An analogy would be me writing a cool operating system for my new computer, and then, for the first time ever, I produce a truly AI little program, called Humanoid. It is by all means nothing more than a harmless virus with the ability to learn. Who is responsible for the destruction or good my program produces? Should I have seen destruction being a possibility? Should I furthermore punish my Humanoids for acting within the parameters I've created?
The world isn't screwed up. Not yet. We have time to fix what is rotten, but that means getting rid of politicians and educating the plebeian masses. I, of course, am way above them in all regards and in no need of reeducation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Never been to Norway – grandparents are Swedish
Nice place, Sweden (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Once upon a time a man was walking along chatting with the Devil. After a while they noticed another individual up ahead of them bend down and pick up a shiny object.
"What was that?", asked the man.
"He found truth", replied the Devil.
"Aren't you worried?", asked the man.
"Not at all", replied the Devil, "I'll help him organize it!". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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There was a great meeting in the depths of hell not to long ago.
Satan: "We have this group of Christians that are really pissin' me off! I want some ideas to get snag em from you-know-who".
Front Row Demon: "Lets tell em we don't exist"
Satan: "Naw, done that already"
Middle Row Demon: "Lets tell em that there is no God and that science and logic is the answer to all".
Satan: "Nope, done that to death".
Ancient Demon in last row slowly raises his hand: "Lets convince them that they have Time
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Tähän en uskalla koskea edes pitkällä kepillä!
Loose translation: "I wouldn't touch this even with a long stick"
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I will (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I’m sure all these quotes are getting hard to wade through so I will condense my response into two ideas.
Philosophy
I stand by my previous statements on this topic; basically, an ideology that claims that a personal moral code based on nothing more than personal judgment is weak. Any response to any situation can be seen as the right response, depending on your judgment. You are following the rules set up by yourself – therefore, you have taken the place of God. That is what I meant by humans becoming God. The greatest fallacy is that human wisdom is enough to determine a personal moral that can successfully bring us to do right.
Just look at one issue in our society – previously in this thread people seem to be incredulous that a person would have the nerve to kill a convicted murderer to remove him or her from the society to which they have become a menace, and yet defend an innocent child from death at the hands of a doctor; a child who has not yet had the opportunity to take its first breath of air. How can there be any doubt? Is it any wonder that the general moral decay we have witnessed in the last half century corresponds directly to removing anything having to do with God from society and replacing it with a relativist philosophy?
Origins
I looked at the web page you suggested.
“This essay is a must-read for anyone who wants to participate in talk.origins. It lays out the land for evolutionists and creationists alike, presenting the ideas behind and the evidence for biological evolution.”
(This sounds fairly open-minded… cool )*clicks on essay*
“Scientific creationism is 100% crap.”
(Well - so much for unbiased)
I continued reading (yes I am a glutton for punishment...) Here’s a quote from a topic which I found interesting: Evolution and Philosophy.
"Microevolution can be studied directly. Macroevolution cannot. Macroevolution is studied by examining patterns in biological populations and groups of related organisms and inferring process from pattern. Given the observation of microevolution and the knowledge that the earth is billions of years old -- macroevolution could be postulated. But this extrapolation, in and of itself, does not provide a compelling explanation of the patterns of biological diversity we see today. Evidence for macroevolution, or common ancestry and modification with descent, comes from several other fields of study. These include: comparative biochemical and genetic studies, comparative developmental biology, patterns of biogeography, comparative morphology and anatomy and the fossil record."
Though many convincing arguments that can be made for these processes, the problem is they assume certain processes from other fields of science are fact, when they are nothing more than assumptions based on the processes from this field of science. So what we have is a circular reasoning – a fallacious logical argument. Assuming x is true, then y is possible, and assuming y is true, then x and z must be possible, and assuming z is true, then x is likely. And this is reported as FACT, with no mention that z cannot actually be observed by any scientific methods.
There is no more scientific evidence for a “natural” evolutionary origin than there is for a supernatural creation. This means that any belief regarding the origins must be made on faith. If you believe there is no God, then the choice is made simple, no matter how ludicrous the concepts. As long as there is nothing to hold you accountable for your actions.
As a “free” thinker, you said you form your opinions independently of others, especially in the sphere of religion, independently of the revelation or authority of the church. I assume this includes the Bible. But why ignore those who are experts on the subject? You have no problem with the ideas and opinions of a scientist who spends his life studying the natural world, why do you not give a ideas and opinions of a pastor, who has spent his life studying the supernatural God, the same weight in your logic. Are they not equally experts in their own field? And often inaccurate and uneducated in other fields (they cannot devote the same amount of time to all fields of study, no)? Yet the conclusions about the origins of life made by the scientist are not able to be proven scientifically. He is out of his natural field of study and in the supernatural field of study. But because a “free” thinker must form his opinions independently of the church, he must then ignore the experts in the field and instead be stuck with guesses of the inexperienced. Much like if both of us were to train a man in skydiving – I have never done it, you are apparently close to being qualified <S!> - and he listened to me rather than you as you are a member of the establishment and an authority on the subject.
The existence of supernatural occurrences cannot be ignored. There are things that science cannot explain. I understand why it appears that you see the Bible as false (see the above paragraph). However, people who have devoted their lives to the study of historical documents will agree there is ample evidence of the authenticity of the accumulated documents that make up the Bible. Because I am free to use information gathered from expert religious sources as well, I believe that God does exist, and the Bible is His Word. I have no reason to believe that God is not who He says He is in the Bible.
A small amount of information on C.S. Lewis can be found at http://www.cslewis.org. (http://www.cslewis.org.) The C.S Lewis Foundation lists only a couple articles published prior to Lewis’ conversion in 1931. At any rate, the way the question is formed seems like you are willing to ignore his post-conversion works (admittedly the bulk of his material) simply because he was a Christian when he wrote them. As if at the point of becoming a Christian, your brain is shut off and you are now a mindless and lifeless drone. I hope that you don’t feel that way about me; I think there are smart Christians and dumb Christians, as well as smart atheists and dumb atheists. You are obviously not dumb – you mentioned English is not even your first language. I took 4 years of German in high school and I know I can barely hold a meaningful conversation, let alone a discussion of this magnitude. Yet another product of the U.S. Public School system. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I hope your foot gets better soon. I studiously avoid bees as the sting tends to swell terribly for me as well.
LuckyDay
-edited for readability-
[This message has been edited by LuckyDay (edited 07-28-2000).]
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Hey St Santa!
You are correct.
As you said, your comments were offensive; to me, and it appears, others too.
You are free to express your opinion, but knowingly doing so in an offensive manner is rude (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
This thread is getting off topic from gunthr's post, and I would ask the moderator to please consider closing it.
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Great reply luckyday. Well thought out.
hb
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Though sad as I am, I think I will not reply to LuckyDay's answer, even if I have a perfect answer. The creationism vs science debate is one of my favourite pet peeves, and I can go on about it. Luckyday's comment regarding some branches on science using others and this being invalid is one I would really want to devour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
However, I read this:
Hey St Santa!
You are correct.
As you said, your comments were offensive; to me, and it appears, others too.
You are free to express your opinion, but knowingly doing so in an offensive manner is rude .
This thread is getting off topic from gunthr's post, and I would ask the moderator to please consider closing it.
Since it was not my intention to be rude or insulting, yet I've managed to be, I'll refrain from further commenting on this issue. I have in my mind been respectful, but it is hard to judge just how you may say something in order for it not to be offensive.
So, leaving off with a final statement; likelihood of something with support vs likeliihood of something without - take yer bet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Hiya St Santa,
Quoting your first post:
"Oops, that sounded sacriligeous. But after rereading it, while it is offensive, it sort of is true, no? And I have a nick to live up to."
And your last post:
"I have in my mind been respectful, but it is hard to judge just how you may say something in order for it not to be offensive."
Sounds to me like you had some idea that what you were saying was offensive.
Far be it from me to ".squelch" the good intellectual discussion that you and Lucky Day are having. You both seem to be enjoying it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
I do appreciate you consideration. As I said, you are free to post you opinion! But please use discretion as to how you express your opinion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
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"Seperation of the church and state is a myth anyway"
*cough* yes.. "In God We Trust"...all others pay cash. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I give a damn about politics, but I do care about the kind of person put in charge. I've seen several interviews of Bush, the man's face screamed he was doing whatever he could to give the public what they wanted to hear.
This being my personal opinion of course. In person I dont have many friends because I know how to spot people I can trust by body language/eyesight/instinct (dont ask me on this, I just know). And Bush just makes me want to run away and hide. 'nuff said.
Besides, we all know the little green men from the Taurus nebula are the ones that run the whole show, so what the heck? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)