Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Simaril on November 11, 2007, 02:20:30 PM
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I've been using my first home built machine for about a year now. Haven't had any major problems, and in fact fewer difficulties than with any machine before (maybe because it made me give up on the mostly useless tech support!)
So I've got a little cash laid by, and decide to do a little upgrade tweaking. I bought 2 more 1GB sticks of PC6400 DDR2-800 Crucial RAM (exact same product as already installed), and I got an IDE 160GB second hard drive to use for manual backups.
Neither has integrated into the system properly, and I have no idea why. Overall I'd consider myself a moderately competent amateur from a tech standpoint, but I've been baffled here.
Problem #1 - Although Setup boot panel sees 4GB, the system only sees 3GB when XP up and running. (Checked several ways, including control panel and My Computer/properties general panel.)
Problem #2 - Hard drive #2 generally is invisible. My Computer, and administrative tools/computer management/ disk management, simply don't see the drive except for a few inexplicable times.
Problem #3 - The DVD drive has disappeared from the system under some connection regimes, and although I can see why sometimes, other times I have no idea.
To keep things clean, I'm posting the system specs in a second post...so if it would help in understanding the narrative, check out the post below.
Not much to say about the memory. It worked in my son's computer just fine, and ran there with 2GB showing. Always shown 3GB in my system, as far as I know. No heat problems, and as I said the Setup/BIOS software sees 4GB.
The hard drive has been a problem since upgrade day one.
First pass was with a bare OEM hard drive that I'm almost positive was defective, and I returned without problem to Newegg. (This was before current hard drive -- telling what happened for diagnostic purposes) My motherboard has two IDE style connectors, one labeled "PRI EIDE", and the other a "PRI IDE." When I used the EIDE one, connected only to the new hard drive, I could see the new hard drive but not format it. The DVD drive was connected to the IDE connector, at the ribbon's terminal connection, and worked fine. In the past, I'd found that the DVD drive will not operate properly connected to the EIDE motherboard connector. The IDE cable I used was one out the parts bin.
So I made sure things were all on cable select, I used the master connection for the DVD drive on its ribbon, put the IDE hard drive on another EIDE connector, and finally can see the DVD drive. Unfortunately, the new IDE hard drive drive was recognized as a SCSI device, even though its not one. I couldn't access it, couldn't format, and couldn't see it on "My Computer". On hardware properties, it showed up with its identifying model number but with that darn SCSI identification. When I used the same ribbon for both the DVD and the hard drive, the computer had trouble recognizing either, regardless of whether I used jumpers for master, slave, or cable select.
At that point went to Administrative tools and tried to format the thing, but while it would allow format to 99% as soon as it reached 100% it balked and errored "Unable to Format." Always happened that way, and since all else seemed OK I assumed it was a bad drive and sent it back to Newegg as said.
So, now to the current events. I ordered a new drive, and got a round "IDE ATA 100/133" 80 pin cable to make sure the parts bin ones weren't cheapie DVD ribbons with fewer actual wires.
In short, never got anything to work with the new cable. Went back to the old generic ribbons, and could get the DVD to show up if the IDE drive was unpowered. Tried cable select, and had problems with boot -- the system kept asking me to insert appropriate boot media, even though neither were supposed to be boot drives. Switched cable positions, same result Tried making both slaves by jumpers, and neither worked. Tried making the entirely blank hard drive master, and the DVD slave, and the DVD wasnt visible.
But with this setting, ON THE FIRST BOOT ONLY, I was able to see the new drive, but only on Administrative Tools. It first showed up as an unformatted drive, so I selected and formatted it as a NTSF drive. Failed the first time, but completed the second and was thereafter described as "healthy". I thought problem was solved...
Except the DVD was invisible, and unusable. (Its my only removable media drive). I powered down, thinking I'd be fiddling again, but then decided to do a whole drive mirror backup while I had the new drive working. I restarted, and...well....found that the new drive was again invisible, this time permanently. I rebooted several times and never saw the sucker again. Mind you, there had been NO changes at all between the successful run and everything that followed.
Again popped the case, tried a few more ideas, and eventually gave up for the day. I had to unpower the new hard drive, and use the slave ribbon connection with the DVD on cable select.
I did not try the EIDE connector on the new drive, the one that read the first drive as SCSI, partly because I dont understand the difference and partly because I've never had anything work right connected there. (At the initial build I'd tried the DVD drive there and the system wouldnt acknowledge it properly.) Also, its at the extreme far side of the motherboard, with the only video card position just inside there -- and its ALMOST impossible to get to the connector or to get the cable to pass over the card and still reach the DVD drive in the case's lowest slot.
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Hardware Installed:
MoBo ASUS P5W DH Deluxe LINK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131025)
RAM: Now 4x 1GB of PC6400 DDR2-800 Crucial RAM LINK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820146565)
Video Card: HIS Radeon X1900XTX 512MB
Drives: LG 16X CD-ROM IDE DVD Burner
Sound Card: Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum sound card
Operating System: MS Windows XP – Pro
Power Supply Antec TruePower 2.0 TP2-550
New Hard Drive: Seagate Barracuda 160GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache IDE Ultra ATA100 LINK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148247)
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The 32bit version of XP doesn't use or see more than 3gb ram. It's always been that way. So there's no problem there.
Did you try going into bios and manually configuring the drives?
Looking closer at the specs, there are 2 ATA connectors with up to 4 devices. So, that's not the problem. If the problem persists, why not get a different drive and use your SATA connections.
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Actually, it doesn't see more than 4gb of SYSTEM-WIDE RAM. If you have a 512MB video card and a 128MB sound card, you can utilize at most 3456MB of RAM. Other little bits and chunks will take away from that, too.
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Next time get a S-ATA hd to avoid these problems.
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Sim
On the new drive, did you Partition it so it can be formated?
Myself I tend to use Western Digtital drives, and once its installed boot up with the WD utilitys, install, sets what kind of drive its going to be, ie fat 32, nt, etc.
Once thats done and you've exited then you should be able to reboot, see and format it. Once thats done you should be able to install into it or use it.
I Could be wrong but I think you missed a step in there.
Like everyone else said XP only goes to 3gig of system memory. Personally I'd leave it at 2 gig of ram. Your not going to get the full use of 4 gig without switching to vista. In which case you'll wish you had 8 gig. Better IMO to leave it in XP with 2gig.
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Had a thought, but it was way off.
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There's no reason not to install 4 gigs on xp32. You get dual channel memory and maximum available ram (3,5 gigs or so) which is 1,5 gigs more than 2 gigs.
That will last for a loooong time.
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Ghost--
The drive shows up on BIOS, but isnt recognized by the OS. I checked at the Seagate website but they don't have a bootable setup software -- they use the XP setup system.
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Ahhh..."They use the XP setup system"...
Right click on the My Computer icon on your desktop and select Manage.
In the window that comes up, on the left hand side under Storage select Disk Management.
In the right hand bottom window, locate your new drive, right click on it and select Initialize Disk. If the system can't see the drive at this point, there is something wrong with the drive, cabling or settings in bios.
After drive is initialized, look at the bar at the bottom right of the Disk Management screen; it represents the new drive and it should display the size of the hard disk and the word “Unallocated.”
Right-click the new drive and select New Partition. This should start the Partition Wizard.
Select Primary Partition and click Next.
Specify the partition size. The easiest choice is to just click Next; this uses the entire drive as one large partition.
Once you're done assigning partitions, format them.
Once you're done with that, you should be good to go.
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how are the drives hooked up ?
are they all on ide ? Sata ?, or a combo of both ?
Next ? would be ... How are there jumpers set ?
you will need master/slave combo for the hard drives.
Next.
for the cd/dvd cable select if its solo on a ide /sata or if theres more then one then either a master /slave or a master/cable select setting is needed .
Now the drive that needs formated you may have to use a win98 boot disk or another hd manufaturers boot/format disk . or another way would be disconect your primary hd and install the new one in its place , now run your xp cd and format it.(dont install xp just do the partition /format)
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NHawk:
Doesnt work. The XP system doesnt recognize the drive at all, so the Disk management and so forth shows only the primary, functioning SATA drive. Because windows doesnt show it, I can't set partitions or format. Hence the problem.
As noted, the drive does show up under BIOS.
Roscoroo:
The Primary hard drive (a SATA drive) is actually auto-detected as Primary IDE 3, as a master drive, in BIOS. It is the first boot disk. The new drive is autodetected as Primary Drive 1 under BIOS. It is an IDE. The SATA has no jumpers, and the IDE new drive is set as cable select...and is in the first connect position, which makes it master over the DVD drive on the same cable.
Could the entire problem come from mixing the SATA and IDE drives, since SATA has no jumpers?
Very interesting idea -- if nothing else works, I will try to disconnect the SATA and boot from windows disk.
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I'm running a SATA Master and IDE Master on Channel 2 right now. Try taking it off Cable Select and making the hard drive master, DVD drive slave.
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When I've done that, the DVD disappears -- and its my only removable media
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Hhhmmmh...well, can try giving the hard drive it's own IDE channel if you have another open space and a cable.
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Have a second connect on MoBo, an EIDE -- but never can get anything to be noticed there, at least havent been able to so far
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Looking at the manual for both your MOBO and the new drive there are only a couple of things to check. But I think you did this already....
According to your MOBO manual, make sure your SATA drive is plugged into the SATA1 connector on the MOBO.
Make sure both of your ATA drives are set on cable select and connected to the PRI_IDE connector on your MOBO. Put the HD on the last connector on the cable (farthest from MOBO), the DVD on the second (closest to MOBO).
Here's the part I don't think you did....
Now go into BIOS...this is where I think you're being prompted for "insert appropriate boot media". Go to BOOT on the top menu. Select Boot Device Priority on the lower left. Make your first boot device the DVD drive, your second device your SATA drive and disable or remove all others from the list. Under Hard Disk Drives, make sure only your SATA drive is listed as a boot device (or at the very least, make sure it's first in the list). Save your configuration and reboot.
If that doesn't work, one thing I don't think you tried is just attaching the new HD without the DVD. I understand it's your only removable media, but it might help narrow things down a bit more.
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Thanks NHawk!
I'll go back and double check those connections...and I'm really optimistic about that BIOS adjustment. It really makes sense that the problem could be coming from there.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Thanks NHawk!
I'll go back and double check those connections...and I'm really optimistic about that BIOS adjustment. It really makes sense that the problem could be coming from there.
Let us know if it works. You have a real head banger here and after reading this thread a hundred times, that's the only thing I can think of that hasn't been tried.
If you get it to boot and the drive still isn't recognized by XP, try Settings, Control Panel, Add Hardware, and scan for new hardware.
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I think everything I was going to say has been said. Currently I'm putting together a new pc and one of the things the manual said is the Raid is disabled by default. I know you are in the BIOS so maybe take a glimpse at that.
Another thought is do you have a mb manual? If not most mb sites have the manuals.
That's all I know. (I think)
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Well....
Sorry to say, no joy. I made sure I set things up exactly as you suggested, NHawk, but it didn't work. I was able to get the system to boot fine, and I'm leaving the BIOS changes in place just on general principles.
With the connections and setup as you described, the DVD did not show up, and the new IDE drive did not show up either. I was able to operate the original SATA (and thus the computer) fine, however. On Computer Management/disk management, only the SATA showed up.
I did come across some settings in the BIOS that sounded like they might affect things, but I did not change them. I will report that the "Onboard IDE Operation Mode" is set to "Enhanced" as it should be for non-legacy OS. On the same screen, the "Enhanced Mode Support" is set on "S-ATA and P-ATA" to allow "serial ATA and Parallel ATA or both" to run as "native"
For now, I've physically removed the new drive from the box, and the system is running fine. (I have the DVD on the master end of the ribbon)
I am considering setting up an exorcism, but was wondering if you'd recommend the ceremony for the main box, the new drive or both?
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Ever figured it might just be a dead drive that's causing a fault in the wire that then doesn't allow the DVD to communicate?
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Originally posted by Simaril
I am considering setting up an exorcism, but was wondering if you'd recommend the ceremony for the main box, the new drive or both?
Well, you do have a poltergeist that's for sure. And if you were 100 miles closer I'd consider doing the exorcism myself. :)
Assuming the drives and cable are good, one other possibilty exists. The cable and jumper combinations...
Option A) If you're using a 40 conducter IDE cable, the drive jumpers should be set on master/slave.
On the slower, older 40-wire ATA cables, the Master device, usually a CD-ROM or CD-ROM recorder/burner still goes on the END, but you need to set the jumpers as Slave.
Did you ever buy a new CDROM or CDROM burner, open it up and see that the jumper was already on the Slave position? It's that way for a reason. This is true even if you don't have a hard drive in the Master position.
The Master for 40-wire cables goes on the the Middle connector. Most HD manufacturers say the user should set the drive using the Master and Slave jumpers on the hard drive, placing the Master in the middle and the Slave on the end.
(http://www.mikeshardware.com/pics/ide8040pin.jpg)
Option B) If you're using an 80 conducter cable, the drive jumpers should be set on cable select.
The Master drive goes on the end of the cable (farthest from MOBO). You could try flipping positions of the HD and DVD here.
EDIT: Just for the heck of it, try the new HD in your son's computer and see if it works there.
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OK, the ...ummm....legacy connector I'm using is one I pulled from a spares box. It's a 40 wire connector, and is has been the one working as I've gone through the debug. When I returned the previous drive (WHY didn't I get a SATA the second time????) I also got this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812105901) cable. I tried using it once, on the first install, and nothing showed up at all. At the time I just figured I bought the wrong cable, but would it worth be trying again now?
Incidentally Ooz, I thought the same thing. I now wonder if I there was anything wrong with the first drive at all, but that's water under the bridge.
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I think we all may be confused on what has and hasn't been tried so here are the combinations. They should all be done on the PRI_IDE connector on the MOBO....
First, before you try anything else you say the DVD is functional now so leave it as is. Connect the new HD to the EIDE connector (all drives made today are EIDE) using the 80 wire cable you bought with the HD jumper set on Cable Select. Then proceed to the note below...
NOTE: In EVERY case, boot, go into bios and set the Boot HD and boot drive order. Every time you move a drive that will change automatically in bios and may not be correct. I still think this may be what caused the original problem. And by removing and adding the drive things just got confused from there.
If using the EIDE connector doesn't work then....
1) On the 40 wire cable, set the DVD to Slave and place it on the connector farthest away from the MOBO. Set the HD to Master and place it on the connector closest to the MOBO. (see note above)
2) Swap jumpers on the drives, but not positions on the 40 wire cable. (see note above)
3) From the starting point (1) swap positions but not jumpers on the 40 wire cable. (see note above)
One of the above SHOULD work. If not proceed...
4) Use the 80 wire cable and set both drives to cable select. Put the DVD on the connector farthest from the MOBO and the HD on the connector closet to the MOBO. (see note above)
5) Swap positions on the 80 wire cable without changing jumpers. (see note above)
6) This is going out on a limb, but set one drive to Master and one to Slave on the 80 wire cable. (see note above)
8) Swap jumpers on the drives without changing positions on the 80 wire cable. (see note above)
7) Swap drive positions while connected to the 80 wire cable without changing jumpers. (see note above)
Beyond that, I have a sledge hammer if you want to use it. :)
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One other thing. When you use the EIDE connector, you're using the same raid controller chip as your SATA drives. So, the chip may report the drive as being SCSI so as not to conflict with the SATA raid controller.
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This all seems like too much work. Have you tried switching cables and be sure there in all the way.
My 2 cents.
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Originally posted by Getback
This all seems like too much work. Have you tried switching cables and be sure there in all the way.
My 2 cents.
It really does doesn't it?
He tried cables way back in the beginning. But, he didn't check his boot order in Bios (ASUS is notorious for auto changing bios). Because of the prompt for bootable media, I think all of the problems stem from that.
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LOL Yep. You guys know more than I do though. Sad to say I was basing my last post on my own experience. I couldn't get the new comp to recognize the cdroms and I tried about everything I could think of, selecting Cable Select, Master-slave, etc. Then I thought lets use the old cable. However, when I pulled it out of the cdroms it litterly fell off the main board. doh!!. So I plugged in the old cable and walaa it worked. My mb came with explicit instructions on setting up the SATA and Raid. I only have one drive I'm using as of right now. So I haven't had to deal with the issue Simaril is having.
My daddy always said keep it simple. 90% of the time he was right.
This is how I see it. It either has to be the bios or the connection.
My old comp simply had the hd in SATA1 & SATA2. There were no master/slave jumpers on the hds.
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Originally posted by NHawk
One other thing. When you use the EIDE connector, you're using the same raid controller chip as your SATA drives. So, the chip may report the drive as being SCSI so as not to conflict with the SATA raid controller.
That happened when I first did the build, took me a week or so to find the other IDE connector. (Yeah, I know, START with the manual, don't use it as a last resort....but what can I say).
Will the drive operate properly as a SCSI, or do I need to go somewhere to re-educate it?
Excellent thought, getback, but I've tried 2 different 40 wire cables and connected/disconnected more times than I want to count.
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Originally posted by Simaril
That happened when I first did the build, took me a week or so to find the other IDE connector. (Yeah, I know, START with the manual, don't use it as a last resort....but what can I say).
Will the drive operate properly as a SCSI, or do I need to go somewhere to re-educate it?
Excellent thought, getback, but I've tried 2 different 40 wire cables and connected/disconnected more times than I want to count.
It will operate correctly. It's just identified as SCSI, it doesn't actually run as one.
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Excellent thought, getback, but I've tried 2 different 40 wire cables and connected/disconnected more times than I want to count. [/B]
I could have loaded a semi full of computers as many times as I carried my new comp to the kitchen to work on when working on the cables.
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Originally posted by NHawk
I think we all may be confused on what has and hasn't been tried so here are the combinations. They should all be done on the PRI_IDE connector on the MOBO....
First, before you try anything else you say the DVD is functional now so leave it as is. Connect the new HD to the EIDE connector (all drives made today are EIDE) using the 80 wire cable you bought with the HD jumper set on Cable Select. Then proceed to the note below...
NOTE: In EVERY case, boot, go into bios and set the Boot HD and boot drive order. Every time you move a drive that will change automatically in bios and may not be correct. I still think this may be what caused the original problem. And by removing and adding the drive things just got confused from there.....
Had my fill of this problem, so didn't try the fix till today. Once the boot priority was set, and with the new drive on its own cable, everything worked like a charm. Formatted fine, operates normally.
Thanks for the help, guys -- and a special thanks with an thrown in for NHawk!!
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Glad to hear it's working!
I was beginning to picture you curled up in a corner with the cables in your hand, convulsing, drooling and repeatedly mumbling "this should work". :)
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You must've mistaken Simaril for me three years ago.