I’m from Houston, feels like family members were lost.Texas Raiders was a sense of pride.
Loss of life and two priceless airplanes in a senseless and AVOIDABLE accident. Makes me heartsick.
I think the Kingcobra was TAKING spacing on the Mustangs. Never even saw the B-17.
Arthur Alan Wolk is a Philadelphia aviation attorney who flew in air shows for 12 years. After watching the air show video and hearing the maneuvers described as "bombers on parade," Wolk told The Associated Press Sunday that the P-63 pilot violated the basic rule of formation flying.
"He went belly up to the leader," Wolk said. "That prevents him from gauging distance and position. The risk of collision is very high when you cannot see who you are supposed to be in formation with and that kind of join up is not permitted."
He added, "I am not blaming anyone and to the greatest extent possible air shows, the pilots and the aircraft that fly in them are safe. Air shows are one of the largest spectator events in America and it is rare that a tragedy like this occurs."
Wolk said it takes extensive training and discipline to fly in an air show setting. The air show qualifications of the P-63 pilot are not known.
The FAA was also launching an investigation, officials said.
Six people confirmed dead.
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/13/1136346487/dallas-airshow-midair-collission-fatalties (https://www.npr.org/2022/11/13/1136346487/dallas-airshow-midair-collission-fatalties)
I'm not convinced he was forming up with the B-17. He was way too fast for that. He was clearly pacing the two Mustangs at the same interval as #2 was with Lead. The formation briefing would tell us who was supposed to do what.
Will be eager to hear about that. Given that he was diving at the time, I have trouble thinking that he simply didn't see a B-17.
- oldman
I think he was in a steep bank to stay with the Mustangs and just lost some altitude while looking outside.
I've seen a "duck under" from the left rear [crossing left to right] of the B-29 by two Zeke replicas over the years when recreating the bombing of Japan, but the BUFF was a bit higher.
I'm still of the belief that he was not expecting to be near the bomber.
The Bombers on Parade portion of the Airsho' goes back a ways. Perhaps there is footage of it being performed in prior years that could tell us what was supposed to happen.
Hope you're right. Almost perfect pursuit curve.
- oldman
I'm not convinced he was forming up with the B-17. He was way too fast for that. He was clearly pacing the two Mustangs at the same interval as #2 was with Lead. The formation briefing would tell us who was supposed to do what.
…without a visual. The closure rate was way too high for a rejoin. Appears he was watching other fighters and lost situational awareness of the B-17’s position. Then, the gut wrenching sound of impact.
Agree with V don't think he saw him to the last second.
:salute :cry
Not so sure he saw the B-17 at all, considering the high closure rate, steep angle of bank, and restricted visibility of the airframe.
Here’s Texas Raiders and the King Cobra on a better day. At 5+08 the P-63 makes a profile pass showing how the wing and fuselage could block visibility under the belly.
https://youtu.be/uT9W17EgGbk[/youtube]
Looks like he goosed it trying to close and re position with the 51's and lost sight of the B17 in his turn, What happened to the 10,000 or below 250 Knot rule? Air show or no air show, the air boss can't override that rule. His extra speed in the 30* bank drifted him right into the B17.
Looks like he goosed it trying to close and re position with the 51's and lost sight of the B17 in his turn, What happened to the 10,000 or below 250 Knot rule? Air show or no air show, the air boss can't override that rule. His extra speed in the 30* bank drifted him right into the B17.
..but if he was attempting to close with the P51's...
I haven't seen a radar trace and don't know what his speed was, but he was from the video I've seen the fastest guy in the sky at the time of the crash.
What ever he was doing it didn't work. and from the video I did see, his excess speed seemed to carry him into the F17. Perhaps to low to dip under, slow and reposition for the B17 if that was his intention, but if he was attempting to close with the P51's he was way out of position and just didn't see the B17.
I'm sure the NTSB will review all the filed exemptions requests and see which ones if any were OK'ed by the FAA.
He may have been a great stick, the best in the world, just not at that moment. stuff happens. That's why I hate airshows, seems like something always happens.
No one has even mentioned the possible medical issue. If the information I read is accurate, the pilot of the P63 was 62 years old and from the photo I saw, somewhat overweight.
Puma knows better than any of the other pilots (or former pilots) the effects that "G" can have on a pilot's field of vision.
I am offering this as neither an excuse nor an explanation for this catastrophe.
I haven't seen a radar trace and don't know what his speed was, but he was from the video I've seen the fastest guy in the sky at the time of the crash.
They have a dry run practice that everyone participates in. The Boss said the other day even he can't quite figure out what went wrong.
The video I've seen show the P51 well above the bombers, so was the B17 off altitude or the 63? Someone was at the wrong place at the wrong time. If they were all on plan then it has to be the plan.
Perhaps the problem is with the airboss and his plan.
Perhaps the problem is with the airboss and his plan. The video I've seen show the P51 well above the bombers, so was the B17 off altitude or the 63? Someone was at the wrong place at the wrong time. If they were all on plan then it has to be the plan.
This showed up for me yesterday; I've never heard of him but apparently he analyzes aviation accidents on his channel. His comments regarding the Dallas crash start at about 22:00 mark. TLDW; is he has long felt the idea of CAF's Warbirds on Parade, with its mixed aircraft types and speeds flying in the same small airspace, has always been an accident waiting to happen. He also states the P-63 pilot was following the directions of the air boss to overtake the B-17. Worth the watch, it has overhead diagrams of the flight tracks.
:headscratch:You're not listening. He was taking interval on the FIGHTERS not the 17. If he was wide so was #2.
(Also, his name was Craig Hutain.)
They were in a trailing echelon for lack of a better term and he was actually the slowest of the three fighters. He WAS NOT FORMING UP on the B-17.
Look at the video I posted from the front.
The two fighter wingmen are taking IDENTICAL spacing.
Yes, look at .06 seconds. Why did he go out so wide and continue to lose alt from there? It's almost like he purposely went off course from staying with the P51s.
His spacing is the SAME.
It doesn't appear like that to me though it could be an illusion from the film. Are there any more films or are these 3 it?
I am also really surprised he didn't see the B17 before they started the turn. Which is why I wish we had a longer video. Its crazy to me that he wouldn't have seen it.
Look at this one.
https://twitter.com/DavidSFOX4/status/1591522623376211968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591522623376211968%7Ctwgr%5E0502e50da24cef814b493a716fb1c9ea361052a3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fb-17-in-horrific-mid-air-collision-at-dallas-airshow
He didn't see it because he was looking to his left at Mustang #2.
Still seems way of course to me relative to the other guys. Are there any radio comms? Were the other mustangs in the wrong here too?
I don't have time yet to check the feed. Convert to Zulu time to find the right one.
https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=krbd
The CAF may have been using their own freq. I don't know.
Dan Gryder is a retired Delta guy. He has had some run in's with the FAA and local authorities over his career. He is pretty abrasive, buttt more often than not makes relevant, valid points.
Juan Browne (Blancolirio) is still an active 777 pilot and has a much better delivery. Both of these guys have enough Youtube followers that they get a lot of "inside" information (most of the time it seems) before the FAA/ NTSB gets it. Juan even speaks to Puma's remark about re-join.
I've heard Griner had over 35K hours and was a 777 pilot. This True?
If, that’s the case and he’s only flown heavies, there’s a lack of experience talking (and passing judgement). Hopefully, the feds can come up with more answers about how the basic situational awareness was lost.
I'm thinking it was an elevator that went bad. Or his controls locked up. That's my best guess.
Loss of situational awareness….very basic. Watching the videos, it’s clear he had control of the aircraft. Locked up controls would most likely have shown the P-63 spear the dirt. He was belly up and didn’t see what was coming.
Loss of situational awareness….very basic. Watching the videos, it’s clear he had control of the aircraft. Locked up controls would most likely have shown the P-63 spear the dirt. He was belly up and didn’t see what was coming.
Appears the P-63 got out of position for whatever reason and was descending while attempting to regaining position. A wingman should never get low relative to lead in a low altitude environment. Too much potential for an inadvertent ground or other obstacle strike. A wingman’s primary responsibility is to maintain sight of lead. The event looks like the pilot was padlocked on lead, and in conjunction with loss of SA, resulted in disastrous results.
No doubt, the feds are already looking at the formation briefing and what the flight lead briefed his wingman. Every complete formation briefing should include lost wingman procedures in the event of loss of visual, even in day VFR conditions. “Lose sight. Lose fight”.
A host of questions to be answered.
I am supporting Puma's points completely. While I accumulated over 30,000 flight hours, precious little is close formation flying and to my understanding, only Puma has extensive experience/training in this type of flying.
I would appreciate hearing Puma's comments about how large speed and performance differences can make flying in close proximity more difficult and even dangerous.
A simple tenet of aviation, "Never let an airplane take you to a place that your brain didn't get to visit five minutes earlier."
Busher, the basic answer is an appropriate speed all aircraft in the formation can maintain safe control.
If you’ve ever seen the Heritage Flight displays at air shows, you’ll see WWII aircraft in a formation mix of aircraft from then to the Korean War to todays latest and greatest. The WWII fighters are peddling as fast as they can to maintain control and fly close formation. A lot of training and proficiency are required to make it look good and be safe. That is why a Heritage Flight Training Conference is held every year at Davis Monthan AFB to train new pilots and gain proficiency for the established pilots. As can be seen here the fast movers are somewhat “slow flying” to stay in formation.https://i.postimg.cc/vmbcwcyJ/C326-CDE6-DEEF-4-C99-88-A8-D0-E6-B6-DF69-DD.jpg[/img] (https://postimages.org/)
I my F-106 squadron, we had four T-33s which were used as intercept targets for the Sixes. We would routinely return from the working airspace with a mixed formation like this. The six pilot would have to slow to about 250 knots for the T Bird to stay in formation.
https://i.postimg.cc/pdHqNYpP/AF55-B512-869-A-459-A-B1-C5-A039-AA8-E989-F.jpg[/img] (https://postimages.org/)
Not sure I'm grasping how this is relevant to this particular case other than lead staying slow enough for the two wingmen to maintain their interval--which I think he did.
The fighter formation in The Parade is not a close-up one like you are describing. It is an interval. I call it echelon in trail (for lack of a better term) or trail. It depends on a number of factors what they use, but generally the fighters do a loose trail one by one.
I've been watching this show for 46 years. The Parade is just that. It is not a formation like the Heritage Flight
Tragic loss of situational awareness on the P-63 pilot.
Incidentally the pretentious YouTube personality Dan G. represents everything I despise about aviation culture quite well. His informative flight path graphics are tarnished when carbon dioxide escapes from his face hole unfortunately.
Well, grasp it like this. It’s simply an answer to Busher’s question, like a side bar. Busher, does that answer your question?
Some more angles in this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tF6vRDrMBHs
Well, grasp it like this. It’s simply an answer to Busher’s question, like a side bar. Busher, does that answer your question?
https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/online-learning/early-analysis/rbd-airshowmidair?utm_source=epilot&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=asi+products
Richard McSpadden is now AOPA's safety officer, basically. He was commander of the Thunderbirds, so he knows something about airshows. If you don't have time to view the 15 minute video, he basically backs up Vraciu and Puma. P63 was outside his (sacred) show line and probably should have aborted, rather than try to continue joining up. P-63 belly blocked his view of the Fortress.
But there are some other interesting factors he talks about.
- oldman
Hard tell if it was an actual impact or a very close miss. Seems there would be significant debris at the moment of the strike. I’ve seen many birds come scary close without hitting. And some hit the windshield, without any damage other than a smear. No doubt the NTSB is all over this video and the possibility.
Birds strikes can be a small, insignificant splatter requiring some simple cleanup, or a major event with significant consequences. If, this was a bird or drone strike, it appears insignificant in this case, considering the high overtake speed and vector of the P-63.
Who cares what hit the prop. He should've still had enough flight-control to avoid a B-17.
Coogan
In the Ward Carroll Video at :10s shows the P63 in a bank well past 45degrees and close to 60 degrees, which can easily explain his nose down attitude at 175-200kts.
Appears the P-63 got out of position for whatever reason and was descending while attempting to regaining position. A wingman should never get low relative to lead in a low altitude environment. Too much potential for an inadvertent ground or other obstacle strike. A wingman’s primary responsibility is to maintain sight of lead. The event looks like the pilot was padlocked on lead, and in conjunction with loss of SA, resulted in disastrous results.
No doubt, the feds are already looking at the formation briefing and what the flight lead briefed his wingman. Every complete formation briefing should include lost wingman procedures in the event of loss of visual, even in day VFR conditions. “Lose sight. Lose fight”.
A host of questions to be answered.
The vector changes significantly nose down after the object strikes the Kingcobra.
Assuming the object hit. No proof of that happening. Only opinion.
The Mustangs were not "way ahead" -- the intervals between the airplanes were almost identical.
Not sure how you can gather that with such short film footage. To me he broke off for some reason or another.
Not the most well-written article, but... NTSB Preliminary Report is out.
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/ntsb-releases-preliminary-report-deadly-air-show-plane-crash/287-af80ced7-0347-4f0b-ab5d-b763391506b4
I hope you offered them your invaluable opinions. :rofl
Coogan
Blancolirio put out a good video on Youtube last night. His take makes a lot of sense.
My opinions may not be INVALUABLE, but they are light years more valuable, informed, intelligent, and rational than anything you've ever had (or will have) to offer. Get off my leg, chucklehead.
This will not end well :rolleyes:
It's all good. I'm just going to ignore the riff raff. They speak from a position of galactic stupidity and ignorance. I may not always see eye to eye with the professionals on here like yourself or Puma44, but I respect your positions regardless. Hopefully the reverse is also true. You can tell those [of us] that have from those [of them] that have not. This has been a good thread so far, with the exception of an obvious two or three rabble rousers.
You should really try to control yourself.
No need for the insults.
Coogan
I'm just going to wait for the NTSB report. Any discussion absent the actual evidence available to them is simply an exercise in what if. I wasn't there, I don't have access to all the information and I really don't care all that much about speculation.
Just in passing conversation; Word is the Co-Ordinator called for the formation of 3 fighters to speed up and overtake the B17 causing a crossing flight path conflict with the B17 1000yard line to the 500 yard line or something similar.That is in the preliminary along with no discussion of altitude deconfliction.
That is in the preliminary along with no discussion of altitude deconfliction.
Altitude deconfliction and never go belly up to another aircraft are the most basic requirements of flying multiple aircraft in close proximity.
Just in passing conversation; Word is the Co-Ordinator called for the formation of 3 fighters to speed up and overtake the B17 causing a crossing flight path conflict with the B17 1000yard line to the 500 yard line or something similar.
Just in passing conversation; Word is the Co-Ordinator called for the formation of 3 fighters to speed up and overtake the B17 causing a crossing flight path conflict with the B17 1000yard line to the 500 yard line or something similar.
Blancolirio has a video out with the Airboss’s conversation.
No opinion on his conclusions and I know some don’t agree with his POV.