Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: HABICHT on May 29, 2000, 12:08:00 PM
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hi all, with the 190a5 coming lets bring in some new infos. taken from best 190 book!
on 23.06.42 a 190 A-3 (801d1 engine) from JG2
(ups) landed on airfield "pembry" ,wales.
they tested & compared it with lots of planes
spitVb, spitIX,p51-A , p-38f & against typhoon.
FW vs Spit5b: (short terms only)
190 min. 19mph faster at nearly all alts
at 20k the FW was between 19-37mph faster than spitV.
the 190 had a better climbspeed of +450fpm
up to 20k!!!.
190 vs SpitIX (book only tells merlin MK61)
surprisingly the planes were nearly the same
in CLIMB & LvL speed up to 20K!!!
at higher alt the spit was getting better
(we all know).
comparing the FW vs Spit is very interesting.
these stats are, like mentioned above, from
a FW190A-3. it has the same weapons as the A5 and the same engine.
SO, HT, PYRO and others!!!
will we get a plane with the performance the
BRIT's gave us???
IF not, well i'll be very unhappy.
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habicht.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 05-29-2000).]
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BTW the BMW801 engine was faulty and was underrated on power.
Anyway I've seen this before. Lets see the flames rage!!!
Round 1:
GONG!!!
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Habicht, throw out your book. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm pretty sure HTC has the original AFDU report, which you can find here:
http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/prodocs.htm (http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/prodocs.htm)
Check out the manifold pressures used in the test, and check the manifold pressures you can get in AH. They are different. So I don't know if we will get the same performance as this test.
Also note that the A-3 is only 7-8 mph faster than the Spit IX at 2000 feet. In AH it's more like 25-30 mph!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-29-2000).]
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I checked the manifold pressures:
In the AFDU test:
A-3: 1.42 atm
Spit V: 12 psi
Spit IX: 15 psi
Aces High
A-3: 43" Hg (about 1.43 atm)
Spit V: 16 psi
Spit IX: 18 psi
This is a significant difference in power. For some reason the AFDU did not operate the Spits at full power. Or Pyro got the manifold pressures wrong, which I doubt.
Also Fw 190A-3 is a little lighter than Fw 190A-5 which is significantly lighter than Fw 190A-8.
So to do an AH test to compare with the AFDU test, you will need to operate the A-5 at reduced weight (less than maximum fuel), and operate both Spits at the reduced power settings.
Please do this test before you decide whether to be very unhappy or not. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-29-2000).]
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Climb power settings were even less than those. The test reports that sustained climbs were done at maximum continous climb settings.
1.35 for 190
+9 for SpitV (from manual)
+12 for Spit IX (from manual)
Looks like our Spit IX doesn't have the Merlin 61 engine, but rather a 66 or 70 if it's gettin' +18 for combat! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I suspect the MkV's were limited to +12 due to lower than 100 octane fuel??? It certainly looks like that's the case for the P-38 as well (only 42" for speed run?) Looks like 87 octane was being used. The Max Man pressure for a P-38 with 91/96 fuel was 47" and 54" with 100/130 fuel. Perhaps the engine troubles on the Fw-190 were due to the lower octane as well. Seems to me the 801D2 with it's higher compression ratio required 96 octane. Maybe it was detonating at 1.42 ata with 87 octane???
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Wells, 1.42 ata is beyond the max pressure for the 801C, so yeah I think the D would need better fuel. I've read other stories of rough running and fouled plugs on other captured 190's that performed better than factory specs(!), so I don't know what to make of that. I wish AFDU had said what the fuel was...
Notice also that there is a note saying the Spit V was later cleared for operation at 15 psi. "Cleared for operation" sounds to me like there was not a question of fuel octane, rather some reliability question that was answered favorably.
I don't have a lot of information on Spitfire engines, but our plane performs better than Merlin 61 test data I have seen, so it makes sense if it is a 66 or 70.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-29-2000).]
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funked, i read the report,
and like i said, there are only little
differences between fw190 and spitIX.
i'd only liked to say, that i want a a5
which is possible to climb with a spitIX
up to 20k. not like our a8 is now!
(couldn't climb with a bomber..lol)
the HUGE speed differences were between
the FW and the SPIT5, and thats ok.
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habicht.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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Habicht, read the stuff Wells and I are saying about the manifold pressure. This is CRITICAL to the comparison. Fw 190 was operating at full power but the Spitfires were not.
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The Spit IX was an early one. They were later cleared for +18lbs, +25lbs with 150 octane. We have the standard Merlin 61.
I remeber some time ago the debate over the Spit IX cutting under negative G, and this test was refered to. If this plane didn't have the pressure carb, could that be why it was limited to +15lb boost? I'm no engineer so I would know wether the pressure carb would allow higher boost pressure.
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 05-29-2000).]
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Thank you for clarifying that.
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The first of the Mk IX(Merlin 61) were actually inferior in performance to the Mk V(Merlin 45) at about 17-20k.(wells was kinda right. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) The Air Ministry or someone kicked up a bit of a stink about it at the time.
Part of the reason is the Merlin 45 is at its peak(FTH) around 18-20k, while the Merlin 61 is in a performance "hole" between the MS and FS supercharger speeds. See the speed/alt charts here (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/perf.html) to see what I mean(Even though the Mk IX is shown as faster).
Erm... do you reckon we will ever see a Fw 190A-2? How many Fw 190A's were produced with the 801C engine?
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-30-2000).]
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426 A2 were supposedly produced.
509 A3
894 A4
723 A5
1334 A8
674 D9
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Thers also an intresting pilots comparison between the spit 9 (merlin 66) and 190. I think it's on the last page.
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Hmm jmccaul thanks for pointing that out.
So he found the climb inferior to the Spit IX with Merlin 66, even though he was at low altitude where the 190 should be at its best.
Also at the end he finds the Merlin 66 Spit fire "much superior at all levels".
I don't think this issue is as clear-cut as many Eric Brown readers would like us to believe.
We know the AFDU speed runs were made with the Spits using considerably less pressure than is available in AH, while the Fw used the "takeoff/emergency" rating. The climb runs were made at "maximum continuous climbing conditions" which are not stated for the Spits and are stated as 1.35 ata / 2450 rpm for the Fw.
So once we get the A-5, we will be able to make a pretty close comparison for speeds, but climb comparison is not possible unless we know what manifold pressure was used for the Spits.
You following this Habicht? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by wells:
426 A2 were supposedly produced.
509 A3
894 A4
723 A5
1334 A8
674 D9
If I fly A-5 instead of A-8 in 1944, would I be gaming the game. I mean, would it be unhistorical ?
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Wells:
sum up those production numbers and tell me if you get around 20.000 aircraft (including F and G models)..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously thou,
According to reasearch by Rodeike and also Willaume Phillip the numbers are someting like:
A0+v= 45
A1= 102
A2 and A3 was about 960 ,the production of the two types was intermixed
A4= 974
A5= 1752
A6= 1192
A7= 701
A8= 6655
A9= 910
D9= 1805
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Nattulv
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
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That sounds more reasonable Nattulv. I read somewhere that only about 13,000 BMW 801 were produced, so the 20,000 figure always seemed like a joke.
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Funked,
and some of those engines went into bombers. It would be nice to get some more definitive numbers though. I don't have anything on A6 or A7 numbers or any of the F/G models.
Apparently, the maximum daily production was 22, reached in '44. At the time of Dieppe, there were only about 200 190's available. Average production would need to be about 14/day for 4 solid years to make 20000+. Is that reasonable?
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Production numbers that I'm familiar with are as follows (not all of them are relevant):
Il-2 42,000
YAK Series 40,000
Bf109 Series 35,000
Spitfire Series 22,000
Fw190 Series 20,000
As far as I know, the Bf109 and Fw190 are both in the top 5 as far as numbers of combat aircraft produced for WWII, with the Fw190 being at about 20,000.
So count me as another who's information points that way.
Sisu
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I don't think so Hristo. Those early 190's were flown until they dropped. Often passed along to younger pilots when newer planes came in. My opa's diary records early versions being used in active service as late as 1944, I think he never even saw an A8 until after he returned.
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I'll be amazed if HTC finally does LW plane like that...
Would be at least some advantages over spitfrie dweebs who can't fly a real plane, but has to use 'slightly' overmodelled AH Spitfrie.
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Why do losers have to come on a nice thread like this and start a LW/RAF fight?
Fishu, I'm a "spitfrie dweeb" who will duel you any day, any time, any plane you choose, and wipe the floor with your ass.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-31-2000).]
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Heheheh da funkamastah is in the mood.
<Grabs popcorn, yells to the others that FIGHT'S ON!>
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Does fishu even fly anymore?
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Does fishu even fly anymore?
I try not to be to impressed with scores. But fishus is very imressive for tour 4 Funked.
Be careful what you say.
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I don't care what his score is. I'm sick of plane snobs issuing insults based on what plane people are flying. If anybody wants to talk about how Spit pilots are crap, meet me in training and back that up.
I find it funny that many of the people who bash Spitfire pilots, fly much faster late-war planes that allow them to rack up their pretty kill/death ratios. Do that in a plane that only does 305 or 325 mph on the deck and I'll be impressed.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-31-2000).]
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I have to agree with Funked on this. Stop the plane snobbery. It doesn't help anything, I mean, we can all claim that our kite is the most undermodeled or whatnot, but I don't think that is true in anycase.
We're all in the same hobby, so what does it matter what our personal choice of rides within this hobby are?
Sisu
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I posted a while a go a compilation of my numbers for FW 190 production, hope someone saved it cause I sure as hell didn't <fats is an idiot>.
At any rate there was lot of varying figures for the different versions and even if you took the highest it wouldn't prolly ad upto 20000.
//fats
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So when you gonna come fly with us again fats?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I'm thinking the A-5 will be a very dangerous plane ...
Yeah, fats, when are you coming back? And where did you go? Every once in awhile I'd look at the posts and try to remember who it was who flew the 190 alongside HT back during beta. It was you!
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Originally posted by funked:
Why do losers have to come on a nice thread like this and start a LW/RAF fight?
Fishu, I'm a "spitfrie dweeb" who will duel you any day, any time, any plane you choose, and wipe the floor with your ass.
B]
If you didn't already get the message, spitfrie FM is unbalanced with Luftwaffel FM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
luftwaffies have that hardcore realism in their planes, (which I would prefer if allies also would have that hardcore realism FM) while allie planes have relaxed realism FM.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Does fishu even fly anymore?
Naah.. not until they will fix some of the issues.
And I got too routined with killing in AH, nothing new to learn (maneuvers that is) and I found a new game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now I am real mud mover, a grunt.
Name of the game is Rogue Spear, and I am also working on WW2 mod for it. (*grumble* it didn't have WW2 weapons in it or any mods from that era, so I had to begun working on one)
If someone likes to see some screenshots of uniforms and 3D models used in it, heres a link: http://www.ww2mod.net (http://www.ww2mod.net) http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/modelit.htm (http://www.kolumbus.fi/fishu/modelit.htm)
- Theres some 3D models I've made
(screenshots are not necessarily the same anymore than they are in game, old ones)
So, I'll be back in business when those few issues gets fixed and I can again learn some new methods for killing.
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"luftwaffies have that hardcore realism in their planes, (which I would prefer if allies also would have that hardcore realism FM) while allie planes have relaxed realism FM."
roadkill. But I will leave you to your fantasy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I hope you come play AH some day, and I will give you a lesson in ACM, in whatever fighter you choose. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Until then, maybe you can keep from insulting those of us who play AH and represent an RAF squadron that happened to fly Spitfires?
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif) (http://www.raf303.org/308)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-01-2000).]
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luftwaffies have that hardcore realism in their planes, (which I would prefer if allies also would have that hardcore realism FM) while allie planes have relaxed realism FM.
Yeah, right!
Herää pahvi!
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jochen Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
jochen Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) Warbirds
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Originally posted by funked:
I hope you come play AH some day, and I will give you a lesson in ACM, in whatever fighter you choose. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have done it and got bored to kill in it.. no thanks until AH gets more intresting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oh God, here we go again with the stupid "There is a conspiracy to make all Luftwaffe aircraft suck, so that American aircraft can be the best *whine* *whine*" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Pure horse crap.
The Fw190A8 numbers are right on, for a non-MW50 aircraft, according to the pilots manual that Funked and Gatt posted.
If you think it should have MW50, Lobby for it, and provide supporting documentation.
The Bf109G10 is easily one of the top two aircraft in the game (along with the Mustang).
What do you guys want?
Pyro, could you please just go ahead and model the Dora for these guys, so we can gets some peace and quiet for a change? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Dora? Now that we have Dora - Ta 152 is only a small artwork change away! Give us Ta 152!
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Nah, guys like Fishu just want an "I win button" in whichever aircraft they fly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Best thing to do is to just ignore any comment by them.
Sisu
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Nah, guys like Fishu just want an "I win button" in whichever aircraft they fly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Best thing to do is to just ignore any comment by them.
Sisu
I do win (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
278:0 K/D in one tour with Fw190A-8, didn't need other buttons than couple triggers to give them some lead.