Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: Zigrat on March 10, 2002, 01:33:07 PM
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have people volunteer to be flight leaders. then they have to do the recruiting to pick who will fill out their flight (say they are given 8 airplanes or something) . IE I would be a flight leader and it would then be my responsibility to fill out my roster. Personally, I fly with assassins in the MA and i wanna fly with assassins in scenarios, under the leadership of an assassin. So in the future, please let squads operate as a unit. Thanks.
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Speaking only for myself, Zigrat, I agree with you. I would prefer to see that our scenarios slots are filled by MA squads first, with a guaranteed number of slots in each flight left open for people who'd rather fly as individuals.
But since we already have the TOD's which are squad-based, I was overruled. Just wanted you to know that some of us CM's are thinking the way you are.
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Hi banana...
For the simpler scenarios I can see why the committie might defer to an open registration format. But as the degree of complication in the scenarios gets as significant as it is in an event such as Invasion Sicily then I would think that Squad Based initial registration would pay dividends to the CM's as well as the players at large to assist in reducing scoring/penalty awards, reducing confusion and helping to instill some sembalance of order and continuity through the frames.
Speaking only for myself, Zigrat, I agree with you. I would prefer to see that our scenarios slots are filled by MA squads first, with a guaranteed number of slots in each flight left open for people who'd rather fly as individuals.
Possibly this is one of those situations where no hard fast rules apply.. and each scenarios registration format might best be decided based on it's degree of difficulty and/or complication.
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That's what we've been trying to do on the Axis side in the current event, and given the oppptunity, we will *not* be doing it again.
The reason is that while comunication within the squad may be slightly better, in almost every case it's much, much worse with respect to reserves/walkons. Ready made, functioning MA squads seem to have a hard time accepting, welcoming and sharing with "out siders". Sad, but empiracly proven to be true.
MA squads and players, and dedicated events squads and players are not nessecarily the same people, and may not wish to persue the same role. I think it's a good idea to keep them seperate.
However, the number one rule must be that command staff be free to staff their sides as they see fit (pursuant to registration rules).
There's some areas that should be out of bounds for CM's.
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Well, as a former player looking for reasons to come back I must agree with Zigrat.
The idea of signing up for a scenario in a lottery that may or may not allow me to fly with my unit, if I had one, or fly the plane I would prefer to fly is a big turn off.
I think some of the numbers issues in the present scenario may have been caused due to the fact that many signed up "just in case".
By that I mean, they signed up with the intent to actually fly it ONLY if they were assigned to duties they wanted.
I would have done exactly that were I still active.
When Big Week ran most people who registered first ended up flying what they wanted to fly and even then no shows were abundant so I realize the solution for that problem is elusive.
I do know for a fact though that if I register in a lottery that might end with me in a tank instead of a plane and I lose I will be a no show.
I would however, make it known prior to scenario start as many seem to have not in Sicily.
The idea of different sign up procedures for different type of scenarios may be the only viable solution so if anyone is counting put me in that camp please.
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My vote: give MA squads 80% guaranteed slots, 20% kept free for the 'non-regulars'.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
My vote: give MA squads 80% guaranteed slots, 20% kept free for the 'non-regulars'.
I'm not keen on mainly squad signup because I like being able to mix with other groups during a scenario - I can and do fly with my squad the rest of the time. When I am flying with them, they know I am one of the squad 'bomber pilots' and it works well with most of the rest of them being fighters. In a scenario, we are all expected to be either bomber or fighter, and this is where it can get difficult - I don't want to fly fighters, the fighter pilots in the squad don't want to fly bombers, which is why I prefer to go it alone. If other squad members end up in the same group due to their own choice of ride, then that of course is great! :D
One of the aspects I liked about most of the AW scenarios was having the opportunity to fly with people from different "countries" as well as different arenas, and individual signup went a long way to being able to do just that.
I do remember one scenario where this idea of squads signing up first was implemented, and as Squad Adjutant, it was a nightmare to try and organise. As some of the frames were midweek, I had to try and find people willing to be 'honorary Kraits' to fill the midweek slots, as we had to guarantee to fill those as well as the weekend ones. We managed it in the end, with some mixing and matching, but I vowed "never again"! Of course the fact I was going through an extremely busy time, in my role as a Game Assistant, at the same time probably didn't help! :)
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There has to be a carrot with which people will be drawn in and will fulfill their commitment. It needs to be a strong incentive. I don't believe in negative reinforcement where paying customers are involved, because frankly it is HTC that bears the brunt of those actions. It is not fair or proper for us to put them in that place. OTOH, if you state clearly in the pre-signup material what the ground rules are for entry, what the criteria for acceptance is, and the time limit for signup, it could be considered as fair as any approach.
Should established squads get first crack? Definitely yes, for very important reasons:
1. They are inherently more organized from the start.
2. They are more likely to go over the written material and practice as a unit.
3. It would encourage people to join squads, which is definitely a better way to enjoy this sim and be successful.
4. It offers a way to penalize low commitment without incurring wrath against HTC. High dropout without contacting the CO or high command can be handled internally, or on a larger scale, by jeapordizing future scenario inclusion. Squads are far more likely to understand this system than individuals.
5. Squads have already shown commitment to HTC and the sim by their very existance.
The critical point is, on what basis do you exclude a squad the first time through the process, how many full squads do you let in, do you guarantee sides and planes of choice.
WRT individuals, that has to be first-come, first-served. There could be no other basis for doing otherwise. There also needs to be a set percentage of the total signups set aside expressly for individuals. Or, transversly, you could close signups to squads only and take individuals as walkons on event day. As you might guess, this probably wouldn't be popular, but it would not leave people guessing.
In the followup, count heads. Check the level of squad commitment, the higher percentage of total member attending squads get priority placement in the next gig. Publicly applaud the squad for its attendance, and publicly notify all this squad is getting first pick in the next scenario and why. This will get the point across better than all the pleading and begging you can do.
As long as the rules are stated clearly up front, the position is extremely defensible and logical.
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I am with zigrat.
I only wanna fly with my squad in plane I pick under the command structure already established with in my squad.
we always have had guys who werent in our squad fly with us. in tod and these events so your empiracle evidence is roadkill.
Plenty them have come back to fly with us over and over. I know 4 other squads who have had the same happen.
The side cos should only be tasked with settin up a general plan of action within the limits of the rules. And coordinate with the cms and the squad leaders to make sure everyone understands whats up. The guys in the flight should decide who leads umm.
After that sit bac and watch and keep everyone up to date and manage the event.
The side cos aint generals and folks aint registering to do their bidding.
Maybe we need to set up seperate events. Sort of "Squad Invitationals" tods are great but larger more immersive events are even better.
Anything that forces you to kiss arse to some jackarse ya dont even like to begin with to get the plane ya want is pure bs.
Nash said he wont ever use 1st come 1st serve whiles hes king so its all moot.
you cant get guys in the flights, planes and squads they want unless ya give them the ability to pick it themselves and it dont look like thats gonna happen...........
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There is absolutely no reason a collection of people can't organize as a temporary squad for the express purpose of joining the scenario. It fits the criteria for allowing a flight leader to recruit his/her own pilots and turn the list in (per Zigrat's request) and allows non-MA squad affiliated pilots to get their shot at the show. Go to a local 3-on-3 basketball tournament, ad hoc teams are the norm. It could work here too. Further, you have a greater level of commitment from the get-go.
Wotan, it isn't about kissing someone's butt. It's about following command, and doing your best to help the team. No, you may not like some guy in charge- go form your own eclectic group of renegades and sign up together. Practice before hand if you like, don't if you don't. Just make sure your guys are there on time to start.
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ya it boils down to that.....
if the only option I have to get the ride I want is going through the side co. and beggin and bribing its all about bellybutton kissing.
If I gotta go through anyone to just get in the event its all about bellybutton kissin.
Nash has said no 1st come 1st serve. I take that to mean for squads as well.
The events aint that good to go through a bunch roadkill to play.
I dont need to be told anything about "team spirit" It was my guys who in Hostile shores were flying till our tanks were empty in every frame looking for a cv to jabo. It was my guys in big week who engaged p51s and 38s at 25k + to allow me and urchin 1 good pass at the buffs in each frame.
I dont think I deserve to play any more then the next guy whether Im in a squad or not. My squad of 12 all like to fly together. But 1st come 1st serve the responsibility is on me. Its up to me to register in a timely manner to ensure the flight the slot and the squad I fly with. If I miss it thats on me. just like its up to me to make each frame.
Lotteries and Begging/bribing/ass kissin to play just a bit too much to put up with.
I have offered my suggestion on how to ensure more people get to fly and have shown how this allows for more folks to choose the rides they want. This is the same way it was done in Afrika Korp.
But since my suggestion had a "1st come 1st serve" element to it theres no hope in see anything like it be used.
So whats left?
ooh ooh pick me pick me?
or damn missed it again oh well maybe I'll show and sneak in somewhere.........
Dont talk to me about following command I have been in everyone since they started.
You say 80 % of the slots should goto squads? suppose theres a lot of squads wanting in? Over the 80% then what draw straws? Beg the the side co for a slot for your squad?
That does nothing to address registration.
How do you decide who flies what? More begging back to picking straws?
No, you may not like some guy in charge- go form your own eclectic group of renegades and sign up together. Practice before hand if you like, don't if you don't. Just make sure your guys are there on time to start.
the current axis co and his xo jumped in Hazed's arse when he made a suggestion. He was told by the axis Co that "I would never pick experienced ah'ers as group leaders"
So that implies some level of anmosity on his part. So if the side co dont like the squad for whatever reason then what?
Renegades? wtf are you talking about? you think I am the only that feels this way? Dont tell me about getting my guys anywhere. We have flown in everyone. In tod I personally have had an open door to anyone who wants to fly. Most of the guests I had have went and got their own squad to fly in tod.
How many have you been in? How many practices have you set up? How many snapshots/tods/ or any event have you been a fl co or assisting the command staff? :rolleyes:
If the side cos arent willing to use the the ah squad structure to his benefit then what?
I am simply saying that a system that doesn't allow for folks to pick their squad, pick their plane and leaves that responsiblity with the individuals registering then its bs.
reserving squad slots does nothing address who gets to fly or what they get to fly. If anything it takes away from the smaller guys when you have main squads with 32 people in it....
When 1st come 1st serve was used my guys always flew together it wasnt because we deserved a slot as a squad or we were only 5 or 6 times in time we have flown been out of the top 5 ranked squads......or because I kissed someone arse. It was because we went to the registration page and registered for a particular slot, in a particular plane. See how simple that is?
If one or more of my guys didnt make they were sol. But that never happened because the lw in every event has never had its slots filled by just those who registered.
Your just spraying perfume all around the same roadkill.
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Gee Wotan, knock that chip off your shoulder. I don't think I said a single thing to merit such (a) hostile answer(s).
FWIW, I haven't been in as many scenarios as you. OTOH, I am a former member of the CM corps and help set up a few. I sat in the tower the first half dozen or so events to make sure guys like you got to fly and rack up kills, and I flew in a half dozen or so more events. Does that qualify me for an opinion? ;) Let me flip it around on you; how many times have you set up an arena for play, how many snapshots have you written, how many times have you managed an event? Let's not have a big dick contest- the ideas I forwarded were made in good faith and come from my experience on both sides of the coin, they weren't made to piss you off (which btw you seem to have been right from the start regardless).
By "renegades", I mean like-minded individuals such as yourself that don't want to follow the accepted methodology of squads. You still haven't told me why this wouldn't work. How do you fill 80% squad entries? The same way you do "first-come, first-served" of course, that is, once the percentage is filled, squad signup is over. The first squad in gets whatever slots they want, the next gets their pick of what is left, etc. That wasn't so hard to figure out, was it? And just because Nash says it won't happen doesn't mean it can't happen. He is one vote on the CM team. There is no reason you (or I) cannot forward a suggestion of that nature.
As to your laundry list of accomplishments in scenarios, I give you a great big *yawn*. How does any of that relate to how to organize an event and minimize the confusion in handling walkons? I mean, I'm proud of the great stuff you and your buds have done in the scenarios, but how does any of that make the show run smoother?
As to "it being upon YOU if you don't fulfill your commitment", just how do you chastize yourself for not showing up? I can see you staring in the mirror, pointing your finger sharply at your self and saying, "Young man, I've had enough of this..." ;) The point is, squad-centric events should eliminate a lot of the no-shows and event-day confusion.
No one asked you to fall in lockstep with anyone. No one asked you to beg for anything. You've made that leap all by yourself.
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I have offered my suggestion on how to ensure more people get to fly and have shown how this allows for more folks to choose the rides they want. This is the same way it was done in Afrika Korp.
Just curious, when you did, where you insulted and told it was a roadkill idea, or did someone just disagree with you? Curious minds want to know...
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By "renegades", I mean like-minded individuals such as yourself that don't want to follow the accepted methodology of squads.
I have no problem with squads see my post (one before the last one) I would be all for squads getting the priority. I only want to fly with my squad much like Zigrat.
The problem is that without some ability to pick the flight and plane I want or my squad wants or if more squads want to participate then there are airframes how do you suppose we register.
either the side cos recruit the squads he wants. That would be the guys the sides cos is buddies with or those who bellybutton kiss to get themselves a slot.
Or you stick with drawing straws either way thats where the roadkill is.
I call it like I see it.
Prior to the lottery I had no problem registering and getting into the flight, plane and flew with my squad whos fl was either myself or someone in my squad.
So 1st come 1st serve solves all you are suggesting.
But heres the problem
So the suggestions here are very valuable in helping us figure out the direction to take. I rarely rule anything out, but the 1st come 1st serve style of registration is one of those things. I don't like the logic in it and I'm afraid it's just something you'll never see as long as I'm around.
and he has also said that one of the reason the move to a lottery was because the "squads" had 1 guy sign them up. Thus taking slots away from others.
Everything that you have suggested has been shot down before you suggested it.
So hell yeah its roadkill and hell ya it pisses me off. This is the only community that I have ever seen run it this way. I have guys in my squad who only are interested in these types of things. They dont care for the main and paying 15 dollars a month to play a lottery that does nothing to accomdate them is crap. I have talked to a few others who feel the same way.
To read some of the comments by some of these same folks scan some of the threads talking about this. Some are in this very thread.
I fly tod thats squad dominated and its great and much fun. I have no problem with your suggestions and would support it. But unfortunately the guys running the show dont.
Look I am shutting up. I have talked about this since the day registration opened. I was pissed when I saw it then I'm pissed now. I think thats clear.
It aint directed at you sorry if it came out that way.....
S!
Happy easter.......
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"If one or more of my guys didnt make they were sol. But that never happened because the lw in every event has never had its slots filled by just those who registered." - Wotan
Telling....
Glad things are cozy with the 1st come 1st serve system for those who fly Axis. Last I heard there's usually two sides in scenarios, but yer right about the other part - they *are* "sol". Who cares about that as long as yer Axis I guess. And yeah... there *were* multiple cases of one guy going in and signing up his entire squad irregardless of whether or not his people intended to show up. Oh yeah, and that other problem of people half way around the world and other *commited* and *dedicated* scenario flyers who you might expect to stay up/stay home/don't travel/don't work/don't take the kids to soccer practise... No... Stay by yer comp hitting refresh like a maniac for the golden opportunity to sign up to a scenario a month away. If yer beeper goes off and yer called into work, guess what - no scenario for you. That makes sense.... how?
I don't take issue with the problems you have about current/former/future registration systems.... But to hold so tight to a system like this when there *must* be a better way of doing things all the way around is strange to me. I don't like any single form of registration that's ever been done in AH. 1st come 1st serve included. It would be dissapointing to me on a personal level if that's the best we could come up with.
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look if you post a date and time for an event people gotta adjust if they wanna be in it right?
if you post a date and time for registration to take place its the same thing.
Now you have said that you wont use 1st come 1st serve so thats it.
But just like you arrange events to accomodate the largest groups of folks so can you do the same for registration.
The lottery did nothing to get guys the planes they wanted. Even in bigweek its was the 60 allied fighters that were fought over there was plenty of buffs slots that werent filled for almost a week after registration.
So a p51 pilot lost a slot cause he couldn't make registration so let him fly a buff.
Then even winning the lottery didnt get him his 51. Ya then had to cozy up to the side co because choice slots like 51s will fill up just as fast as they did during registration.
At this point I am just whining. I would be saying the same things whether I made it or not and Im sure if I wanted to I could find a place. I voiced my objections to the lottery the day I saw it.
And I dont think I deserve a slot (if ya read the threads about bigweek reg thats all ya heard from the disgruntled allied pilots).
I dont think I ever camped out waiting for registration I just logged on around the time registation opened. Even then 190a8 slots were open for a few days.
Hell in hs I think I waited a day or too there was plenty of 190f8 slots open.
Anyway thats it for me. You all know better then I so I ll just differ to the pros.
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"You all know better then I so I ll just differ to the pros." - Wotan
Lol... problem is we DON'T know better... I'm probably makin' more enemies in the CM group than Oprah's daily alottment of doughnuts. :D But damn... we really are trying to come up with something. When I say that I appreciate all the posts on this subject you gotta believe that I aint being patronizing one single bit... I need to hear this stuff from every angle.
Don't take my "it's ruled out" post too seriously... I have been known to change my mind. ;) Thing is, I don't *want* to.... Going back to that system would be like resorting... It was problematic and it would continue to be problematic. And everything before and since - the same thing. Again - there's gotta be a better way of doing this.
You've been bringing up AK and HS... but ya also gotta realize that AH was a different beast back then. AK was still in beta, and HS even didn't present a situation where we needed to turn people away to the tune of 100+. Not only was your participation basically a given, but the competition for specific rides was nowhere near what it is now. It's different.
It would help me greatly if you just *pretended* that 1st come 1st serve would never happen again, and try and come up with something else... Maybe you'll be the one person who, in his sleep, comes up with that one golden, elegant, simple approach. I would literally send you many many beers if that happened. :D
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My mouth has been runnin too much you wont hear about from me again but let just give ya a quick overview about my suggestion and that will be it
we have 260 slots with the planes assigned by side co
380 reg fer lottery
120 reseves that may/may not get a slot certainly they have no choice as to the plane or flight they just go where they are needed.
Now my suggestion would be
if there 10 slots per flight
make it so 15 guys can sign up for that flight
the 1st 10 that register get the 10 top slots
the next 5 fill the last 5 slots (call umm reserves)
If anyone in the 1st 10 miss a frame hes dropped to the bottom and everyone slides up a slot. So the next guy in the reserves gets bumped up.
If anyone gets killed or loses their airframe they goto the bottom and everyone slides up a slot.
Now 1st come 1 st serve only effects the 1st frame.
And if any of the other flights are short you take the guys from the reserve slots from the other slots 1st.
If you still are short then some walkon provision may need be worked out.
You end up with a natural rotation.
You end up with 15 guys per flight who can train together and arrange their flight to accomodate who can fly when etc.
These guys call all be added to the sea squad roster prior to start. They will all be trained and informed (depending on the fl) so you wont have the huge confusion at the start.
Give the fl the responsibilty of contacting each of the 15 in his squad have him report to the cms or cos if they cant get in touch with 1 of his guys and make it manditory that the fl report how many guys he will have for each frame.
The fl as usually are picked by the side co but he must choose the fl out of the 15 registered for that flight.
You end up with 360 or so registered guys all have a slot and were able to pick their plane and flight.
This is how AK was.
Everyone is all but guarranteed 1 frame. Unless a miracle happens and the 1st 10 guys in a flight all show up for every frame and none of them lose a plane. I dont think that will happen but if it does if theres any opening in any of the other flights ya grab guys from the reserves.
Now to me reinventing the wheel is too much work to expect from you guys and you all do a hell of a job. I hope my whining aint been too much fer ya.
But I think looking bac at what worked and tweaking it to make it better would be how I would go at it.
I dont think that holding slots for anyone is fair. Just because i'm in a squad I ought not get priority. I think if I want to participate then its up to me not only to be there for the event but to register in a timely manner.
But maybe for the next one the sea will have 450 max capacity and this will all be for nothing.
S!
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Yup, upping the capacity to 450 is gonna help a lot. As it stands, overbooking on an arena that caps out at 250 is pretty risky. 15 people for 10 rides is a 150% overbook. If you apply that to the number of people who did show up, many wouldn't have been able to even get into the arena. But hopefully, and it sounds like, the capacity is getting upped... that's a huge complication that's not going to be there anymore.