Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: captain1ma on June 20, 2011, 10:24:11 AM
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without saying why the AVA sucks, and how attitudes suck, what kind of setup would you like to see in the AVA. please include settings IE no icons, no wind, no small children, etc. we are trying to find out what it would take to bring more people in there. I'm sure there are a million things, but we just want Setups that you would get excited about. even so far as scheduling map rotation suggestions would be helpful.
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No enemy icons, friendly icons 800. On occasion, how about no icons at all? Maybe have one day in the week with no icons to see how the crew responds to it.
Variable wx weather conditions; from clear and unlimited visibility to low solid overcast and short range visibility that would cycle between extremes once every set time period (every hour, half every hour?).
:salute
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normal bombsites.
sorry guys, but i just cant seem to get the manual system down :(
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normal bombsites.
sorry guys, but i just cant seem to get the manual system down :(
10 minutes in the TA will solve that. :aok
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I really hate to say it, but unless you have Latewar hotrod planes and at least short (3k min) enemy icons, you won't draw many people in. Too many have their preconceived notion about icons, either from the BBS or people they fly with that have tried. And too many people don't have the attention span to fly at 230 mph - even if bases are only 20 miles or less away from each other, let alone having to shoot someone with more than a fraction of a second's worth of cannons.
I admit I haven't been in much lately, but the things you're trying now with objectives other than just furballing is a good thing. Bad thing is, people in an online game are a lot like lemmings; they don't want to be the first one somewhere, but will follow others if there's already a group there.
There's been lots of talk about new maps - especially Raven's work-in-progress. You might see a few more jealous MA'ers come in to see a new map. If enough people show up and actually have fun (by having fun fights w/o the MA baggage), who knows...it might start to grow.
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Our goal (vision) was to create an arena that attempted to simulate real historical and environmental settings pilots faced during WWII. We do this using weekly setups that attempt to balance the gameplay, available aircraft and vehicles, through historical maps to give a 'be there' feeling for a week at a time, not 3 hours on a weekend. In a nutshell, that is our vision and mission for the AvA (from the admins).
We're not the MA and we're not the SEA. We can't compete against them and we really have no intention. What we would like is for pilots to tell us what is missing from both the SEA and MA and we attempt to fill that gap. Hence - the current no enemy icons, realistic bombsights, wind/turbulance, clouds, historical maps, the whole shebang. Call it the 'realism theatre' - but we know what we're not, and we kind of take pride in that.
Knowing that going forward, is there anything else we can add to give our arena that flavour that enhances gameplay and realism of historical settings?
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Well said, Mister Fork! :aok. Your post would be a great intro statement for the AvA. :salute
"Realism Theatre" is a great descriptor for the AvA. :D
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Don't change a thing gentlemen! If anything just advertise a couple times a week at peek hours in the MA. If its a good setup the skilled players will enjoy and the hoard will just stay in the MA.
:salute
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Our goal (vision) was to create an arena that attempted to simulate real historical and environmental settings pilots faced during WWII. We do this using weekly setups that attempt to balance the gameplay, available aircraft and vehicles, through historical maps to give a 'be there' feeling for a week at a time, not 3 hours on a weekend. In a nutshell, that is our vision and mission for the AvA (from the admins).
We're not the MA and we're not the SEA. We can't compete against them and we really have no intention. What we would like is for pilots to tell us what is missing from both the SEA and MA and we attempt to fill that gap. Hence - the current no enemy icons, realistic bombsights, wind/turbulance, clouds, historical maps, the whole shebang. Call it the 'realism theatre' - but we know what we're not, and we kind of take pride in that.
Knowing that going forward, is there anything else we can add to give our arena that flavour that enhances gameplay and realism of historical settings?
Where does Jetweek, fit into all that?
I enjoyed the no-icon approach, but I think a return to limited icons (but close to MA standard) matched with well written historical setups will possibly help with numbers.
I think of it more as the Historical Arena than a realism arena.
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I think of it more as the Historical Arena than a realism arena.
^-- This.
The "no icons" isn't very historic IMO because it changes the entire dynamic. No more before-combat-manuvers, no more seeing incoming cons and reacting appropriately. While I can see a limited appeal in doing no-icons, I think that in regards to "historical" it really cuts back on what you historically can replicate. It would be like having a maximum down-draft to keep all fights below 5k alts... If you did it, sure it can work, and you might have fun, but it really limits your abilities based on historical accounts of what the real guys did in the real deal.
I wouldn't mind seeing full icons not only in AvA but in FSO as well (there's almost no real reason to have short icons in FSO, IMO), but I think I agree with the "historical arena" rather than the "realism arena"
I like to get immersed. I don't like minutae. That's why I don't fly MSFS X with 10 million buttons and you have to actually click the lever to pull the throttle in or out, etc. I want to pretend I'm Marseille getting kills, not Marseille filling out paperwork because he lost yet another aircraft.
:D
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How about a WWI setup for a couple of days? Also, I always thought it would be interesting to see a setup with no single engine fighters or heavy bombers enabled, just planes like the D3A vs the SBD, A20's vs bf110's, or Ju87 vs IL2. Then again I bet a setup like that would turn people away from the AVA.
Another thought is to put in bonus side missions for each side. For example, "recon mission - with film recording for entire flight, fly plane 'x' with no ord and light gun loadout over enemy airfield 'y' and return safely to base. Submit film to AVA admin for mission success approval" (They do something similar to this in FSO I think) or "intel recovery misson - run film recording for entire sortie, drive a PT boat to a designated location, sit just off shore with engine off for 2 minutes so undercover agent can deliver intel package to your boat from shore, return to friendly CV or shoreline. Submit file to AVA admin for approval"
I know these last two ideas are not arena setups but I figured I would throw them against the wall anyway. Maybe one will stick.
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No enemy icons, friendly icons 800. On occasion, how about no icons at all? Maybe have one day in the week with no icons to see how the crew responds to it.
Variable wx weather conditions; from clear and unlimited visibility to low solid overcast and short range visibility that would cycle between extremes once every set time period (every hour, half every hour?).
:salute
Im with puma.
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well... how about "what if" scenarios?
like the germans vs japs,
America vs Britain.
scenarios like that?
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well... how about "what if" scenarios?
like the germans vs japs,
America vs Britain.
scenarios like that?
We already have that in the other Main Arenas. If they did it here, it wouldn't be the "Axis Vs Allies" arena then, would it... ;)
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We already have that in the other Main Arenas. If they did it here, it wouldn't be the "Axis Vs Allies" arena then, would it... ;)
unless you created an alternate reality.
where the good&bad guys are changed.
could have it something like, russia: looking for a country closer to the U.S to prep its invasion, invades Great Britain. hoping to use the island nation as a refueling station for its massive navy, and hopes to one day launch bombers from it to attack america.
or stuff along those lines, could turn it into RISK: Aces High edition.
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^-- This.
The "no icons" isn't very historic IMO because it changes the entire dynamic. No more before-combat-manuvers, no more seeing incoming cons and reacting appropriately. While I can see a limited appeal in doing no-icons, I think that in regards to "historical" it really cuts back on what you historically can replicate. It would be like having a maximum down-draft to keep all fights below 5k alts... If you did it, sure it can work, and you might have fun, but it really limits your abilities based on historical accounts of what the real guys did in the real deal.
I wouldn't mind seeing full icons not only in AvA but in FSO as well (there's almost no real reason to have short icons in FSO, IMO), but I think I agree with the "historical arena" rather than the "realism arena"
I like to get immersed. I don't like minutae. That's why I don't fly MSFS X with 10 million buttons and you have to actually click the lever to pull the throttle in or out, etc. I want to pretend I'm Marseille getting kills, not Marseille filling out paperwork because he lost yet another aircraft.
:D
So, having a green or red banner over the aircraft is historical in what regard? :headscratch: I may be wrong but, banner towing wasn't invented until after WWII at some point in time. I do agree that "no icons" changes the dynamic, it brings in a touch of reality that the banners don't.
No more before-combat-manuvers, no more seeing incoming cons and reacting appropriately......Huh? It's done everyday in the AvA. Or did I misunderstand what you meant? :salute
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How about getting back on track with the OP...it's not about icons or no icons; that's been beaten past death. I'm almost thinking it should be a Rule # like talking about politics. :D
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How about getting back on track with the OP...it's not about icons or no icons; that's been beaten past death. I'm almost thinking it should be a Rule # like talking about politics. :D
Agree! :aok So, why does it seem that those who don't frequent the AvA much continue to beat it to death? After all, if one doesn't like the no icon setup, it's quite easy to go to one of the MAs that have hundreds of icons to look at. Just a thought, or two. :salute
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/beatdeadhorseve62.gif)
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well put dot! <S>
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Agree! :aok So, why does it seem that those who don't frequent the AvA much continue to beat it to death? After all, if one doesn't like the no icon setup, it's quite easy to go to one of the MAs that have hundreds of icons to look at. Just a thought, or two. :salute
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/beatdeadhorseve62.gif)
I think its because they feel threatend do to lack of experience with those settings..
Those that promote No icons have experience in both no icon, limeted icon and full icon settings. Those that complane about no icons generally have no measurable experience or flight time with no icons settings...They have not mastered the environment and are not willing to work at it they get frustrated when they get killed by those that have they either give up or let there egos get in they way and say no icons isn't realistic to justify there lack of experience...
This is only my individual opinion and in no way represents the opinions of the AVA staff as a whole..
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What about holding some sort of event or contest to get people into the arena?
I remember back in WarBirds - once a week I think it was, on of the IEN staff would fly an a/c with the handle "KILLME", once for each country (Red, Green, Gold, Purple) in turn. Whoever shot down KILLME got a nice announcement over the open channel, and WarBirds T-shirt was sent to them. I thought it was a lot of fun, and I even managed to win a T-shirt once.
Might be a way to get a bunch of people into the arena and get them familiar with the environment without having them spaz out over the different icon setting, limited planeset, only two sides, etc. They'll be concentrating on hunting KILLME, and might have a lot of fun without worrying about the arena. They might learn to like it inspite of themselves.
Do a PR campaign beforehand, run it once a week for a month and see what happens. I'd be happy to pay for the first T-shirt (or maybe a coffee mug?) prize. Just get one of our great artists (Cactuskooler?) to create a cool image.
And I will put a sticky-note on my keyboard to check the AvA first next time I fly AH. Gotta break the MA habit, and try to get the 80th in there when you've got 38s available.
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What about holding some sort of event or contest to get people into the arena?
I remember back in WarBirds - once a week I think it was, on of the IEN staff would fly an a/c with the handle "KILLME", once for each country (Red, Green, Gold, Purple) in turn. Whoever shot down KILLME got a nice announcement over the open channel, and WarBirds T-shirt was sent to them. I thought it was a lot of fun, and I even managed to win a T-shirt once.
Might be a way to get a bunch of people into the arena and get them familiar with the environment without having them spaz out over the different icon setting, limited planeset, only two sides, etc. They'll be concentrating on hunting KILLME, and might have a lot of fun without worrying about the arena. They might learn to like it inspite of themselves.
Do a PR campaign beforehand, run it once a week for a month and see what happens. I'd be happy to pay for the first T-shirt (or maybe a coffee mug?) prize. Just get one of our great artists (Cactuskooler?) to create a cool image.
And I will put a sticky-note on my keyboard to check the AvA first next time I fly AH. Gotta break the MA habit, and try to get the 80th in there when you've got 38s available.
So Oboe we agree 100%. Here is proof, just roll back the calander and pick out events / setups that you would like to see run, to answer the OP's question, what kind of stuff would you like?
(http://www.avaarena.org/apps/calendar/) For the most part if you click on the date/setup it will direct you to details on the setups, including maps, planesets, and even appropriate skins on occasion. << folks seem to like that Jaeger, and has been requested. Make sure you check out the "Home" button also, there is a film generated from an event such as you are proposing.
I think what we NEED mostly is to educate folks that convincing 1 or 2 others to join you in the AvA when it is empty will lead to possibly hours of fun. Basically, the reason that you and most other players have heard so little about the arena is that. I make announcements here and there, and the response is mostly always the same. It sure is a good arena. It is a shame it is always empty. :bhead
I have heard folks in the MA get riled up over the results of a fight with someone and never do they challenge them to an AVA duel!!! They always go bet you wouldn't DA me!! Or you wouldn't do that to me in a 1 on 1. If these folks really liked 1 on 1 fights so much, why don't they grab someone and go to the AvA? That is all I am saying ;)
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I clicked on the "HOME" link but saw only two films - Blood and Iron and AvA promo. I rolled through the calendar back to January and didn't notice any contests listed - it looked like all typical scenario-type matchups, which is fine - but I didn't see a contest like the WarBird's KILLME event.
Can you link me to it directly? Sorry I missed it!
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I'm still trying to think of some ideas. Until then, another opinion of mine as to why more don't come to AvA: historical plane matchups with limited planesets. People won't come in unless their favorite [Late War] ride is in the planeset, whether it be Allied or Axis.
Most people need their egos stroked, so hesitate to come to an arena with unfamiliar planes and a small audience to witness their greatness when they land two kills.
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He asked for opinions. Icons were mentioned. Historical arena was commented.
I'm really shocked that the same old guard every time starts insulting. It's always "If you don't like no-icons, then you are a no-talent idiot" -- every damn time.
Its old folks. Puma, you should do some searching. This idea has been rehashed many times and even just recently in (yet another) wishlist item for no-icons in the MAs. [EDIT: Okay I saved you the 2 seconds to look it up: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,315098.msg4089675.html#msg4089675 ]
NR Raven, shame on you for even making such a bald-faced accusation. 99% of the folks decrying no-icons have more experience than you or I put together in a multitude of game environments and in real life.
I had a point, which you all missed and went straight to the insults. The point was: I like the historical aspect of it, not the "realism" aspect (because it's not realistic at all). To that end, the settings you are choosing are promoting unhistorical confrontations and unhistorical results.
This is born out not only in the plane stats from recent setups (remember where the slow obsolete but very turny planes beat out all the US rides with better strength, speed, and firepower?) and leads to gaming the game more than it does to true and honest combat experiences. I'm not getting into proving you all wrong on icons (again). I'm talking directly about the subject at hand: the settings and setups of the AvA arena and suggestions/comments to help improve it. You will note I'm not advocating icons out to 25k or any such absurdity. You don't all have to go off on the insult-tyrade-train at the drop of a hat.
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Is there any way to find a compromise on the icon issue? For example, what about a new icon setting that is sort of the inverse to the short icon - you see long range icons for enemy a/c but when you close to near gunnery range - say 1.5 or 2K, the icons flip off? Would a setting like that satisfy at least partially, the major concerns of both sides.
I think WWII Online had a great idea with icons that would fade in and out depending on distance and how long you maintained your view in the direction of the bogey.
But back to the point, most people I think know the general parameters of the AvA - limited planesets and icons, and a two-sided arena. So they choose or don't choose to go there based on preference, and most people apparently prefer not to. And then of course people see the low numbers in the arena and that reinforces the choice of not going in. But rather than try to convince people about how great the arena settings are, just give them a reason completely apart from the settings to come in - think of it as an arena open-house with the incentive of a door prize.
You'll get over the arena population limitation and maybe get quite a few new folks in to try it.
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He asked for opinions. Icons were mentioned. Historical arena was commented.
I'm really shocked that the same old guard every time starts insulting. It's always "If you don't like no-icons, then you are a no-talent idiot" -- every damn time.
Its old folks. Puma, you should do some searching. This idea has been rehashed many times and even just recently in (yet another) wishlist item for no-icons in the MAs. [EDIT: Okay I saved you the 2 seconds to look it up: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,315098.msg4089675.html#msg4089675 ]
NR Raven, shame on you for even making such a bald-faced accusation. 99% of the folks decrying no-icons have more experience than you or I put together in a multitude of game environments and in real life.
I had a point, which you all missed and went straight to the insults. The point was: I like the historical aspect of it, not the "realism" aspect (because it's not realistic at all). To that end, the settings you are choosing are promoting unhistorical confrontations and unhistorical results.
This is born out not only in the plane stats from recent setups (remember where the slow obsolete but very turny planes beat out all the US rides with better strength, speed, and firepower?) and leads to gaming the game more than it does to true and honest combat experiences. I'm not getting into proving you all wrong on icons (again). I'm talking directly about the subject at hand: the settings and setups of the AvA arena and suggestions/comments to help improve it. You will note I'm not advocating icons out to 25k or any such absurdity. You don't all have to go off on the insult-tyrade-train at the drop of a hat.
You missed my point and took a fact as an insult..
Lets just agree to disagree before it gets ugly... Pm me if you want to continue this I have some points of my own to make that would be more appropriate vie PM
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> snip <
But back to the point, most people I think know the general parameters of the AvA - limited planesets and icons, and a two-sided arena. So they choose or don't choose to go there based on preference, and most people apparently prefer not to. And then of course people see the low numbers in the arena and that reinforces the choice of not going in. But rather than try to convince people about how great the arena settings are, just give them a reason completely apart from the settings to come in - think of it as an arena open-house with the incentive of a door prize.
You'll get over the arena population limitation and maybe get quite a few new folks in to try it.
The Blood and Iron trailer film came directly from a film contest that I personally did a hell of a lot of promotion for. Jaeger ran a contest to kill Yamamoto, that was a huge success. Jaeger, assumed the roll of Yamamoto in a formation of Japanese bombers, along with several other formations and escort fighters. The allies win condition was to find and down all 3 bombers that Jaeger flew, before Japanese objectives were met.
I am sorry, but I remembered there being a lot more discussion including cartoon commanders films instructors on the website. I was mistaken to send you there for event information, but there was a long time during the first of the year where one day events occurred almost every Thursday night, and we certainly agree that it was good for bringing in new faces.
So I guess I didn't make it clear that I am saying :aok +1 for challenges. That is mostly due to the latest innovation of having 24/7 objectives that I favor a hundred times more. But having one does not exclude the other, so my vote goes to having both.
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I'm thinking about running a "Fly Naked Friday" event each week.
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Its old folks. Not quite sure what you mean by this, Krusty. :headscratch: ...or, did you mean "It's old, folks"?
Puma, you should do some searching. About what? :headscratch:
Okay I saved you the 2 seconds to look it up Well, it's more like you wasted 2 seconds looking it up. We are in a discussion now, not in the past.
The issue of icons keeps coming up in the AvA forum from a lot of those who don't tend to frequent the arena because they don't like no icons. It seems that most who have an open mind about trying no icons, and give it a fair try, seem to have fun with it. Just an observation, no scientific fact, charts, etc....
It is probably safe to say that everyone that plays AH has a unique system with it's own advantages and disadvantages that makes picking up the pixel planes different for each one of us.
Just as in the real world, pilots have different visual acuity affected by their eyes, glasses, sunglasses, windows/canopy, cleanliness of these that are viewed through, real world lighting obstacles, weather phenomenon, individual physical limitations, etc., etc., etc., that affect what distance they can pick up that first real world "pixel" and the distance at which they can determine the shape and identify the aircraft. These distances can vary greatly from one individual to another also.
So, just as is done in the real world, tactics have can be used to optimized visual lookout and pickup of a bogey to gain the advantage, maneuver for a guns conversion, and make the kill shot......all without a big red banner.
Now, I realize that not everyone likes to fly tactically in game. Not everyone wants to fly with a wingman, in game. Some want to come at their opponent co-altitude, head-on, both dive for speed, pass each other, pitch up and see who can make the first turn and out fly the other guy; all with icons a blazing. ...and that's fine. But, the AvA has developed into an area where like minded players enjoy (for the most part, it seems) not having icons. And yes, I know that we all have the individual choice of turning off icons (ALT I). Is everyone aware of that?
So, it's still a wonder why the dislike continues about no icons in the AvA.
Also, Krusty, you didn't answer my previous question of why is having icons turned on more historical? I'm sure your have your own perspective on it. I'm just interested in understanding it. :salute
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Here are some suggestions to increase *popularity* (not fidelity, etc.):
- regular icons, or icons at D20 and closer.
- fields REALLY close to together. Some of us (<cough>) have really short attention spans and don't like flying 20 mins to find (no) fight.
- limited # of fields
- change planes without telling folks (it's always a mystery, and once they log in to see what's available, maybe they'll try a hop or two and like it).
- only axis vs allies (but allow for some what-if type things, like Russian vs IJN/IJA, Korean war, WWII 1946 (ok, we need a lot of planes we don't have, but I can dream)
- tune flak way down. especially CV flak.
- no ground vehicles (need everyone flying; can turn that off if you start getting 50+ people in there regularly)
- for setups where IJN/IJA (for example) starts getting outnumbered, use the ENY or whatever to allow them to fly newer airplanes. (rushed to the front, etc.).
- make it about fun, not recreating history. (icons, etc.) allow, encourage dweebery. If you haven't noticed by now, it's what a lot of people WANT to do. maybe not all the time, but...
Good luck, I do want the axis/allies arena to succeed.
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well guys,
one thing i wish, is that if a certain event seems to be popular, it could get an extension past its deadline by a couple of days.
when i fly in "the 8th comes over" i was loving it, but i joined it only halfway through it. so i only got to fly in there 3 times before it was over, and i didnt like the AvA that came after it, so i shyed away from the AvA.
How about letting people also vote on the forums for what event they want next? (hate to compare it to cod, but like how in COD's multiplayer,you can vote for what map you want next, that would be great here. and you can make it so the same map cant be voted for twice in a row, so the AvA doesnt get spammed with the same map over and over).
also, ik you guys have already addressed this, but i really wish it would go to normal bombsites instead of manual.
ive tried guys, i really have, ive flown alot in the AvA as bombers, trying to get this manual bombsite down, (just did a little today in the b29s) but i just cant seem to get it. theres some things some people just cant do, even with training. and im sure theres other bomber pilots out there like me who just cant get the method down nomatter how hard they try.
so i'd really like to see the option to choose wether you wish to use normal, or manual bombsites before takeoff.
therefore the hardcore realism people arent forced to use the normal bombsites, and the casual bomber pilots who cant seem to get the manual down will still be encouraged to fly in the AvA.
I'd love to fly b29s during jet week, until i found out they were manual bombsite. now its basically another good AvA i have to skip because i just cant get the manual bombsite down.
just my opinions. :salute
Edit: also, like i asked for in another thread, it would be great if the proper skins for each plane available was put into the arena message to help with adding the realism factor.
ik the point of the arena msg is to encourage more research, but when i log into the AvA, i dont do it to read a arena message, then immediatly log off so i can go to google, and search for 20-30 mins for each type of properly used skin. i want to jump straight into the action, then go look up the info later while the ground crews clean the wreckage of my plane off the runway. :D
Thats All.
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Some good thoughts, Tyrannis. But...
A lot goes into the research and setup for their "events". Having players vote on what they want to see next would, in my opinion, impart an unfair burden on the [100% volunteer] AvA staff to try to accommodate.
Manual bombsite is one of the things that sets the AvA apart from the MA. It would be unfair and unbalancing if players can choose which method they want to use for each sortie.
What I'd like to see, and this may make me a bit unpopular with the AvA crowd, is this:
- Keep it a two-sided map; after all, it's Axis versus Allies.
- Limit the available equipment accordingly for each side; no spit vs spit or zeke vs zeke, etc.
- Periodically (or by map if possible) narrow the choices by era if desired (EW, MW, LW)
- Short icons for both sides; 3.5k (2 miles)
- Manual bombsites
- Open gameplay with base captures and win-the-war map resets to the next map in rotation
- Try to limit the tweaking/customization of objects that would make auto-resets unmanageable
- Keep the countrywide 123 vox channel to encourage comms and coordination of forces for each side
- Turn ack leathality back to standard settings to discourage vultching
- Killshooter - the jury is still out on this. Off would add to the feeling of working as part of a team; you wouldn't want to shoot down your wingman or the escorts for your buffs, but would allow for very unsavory dweebiness...
It's a tough thing to come up with the perfect formula to make an arena both historical and attractive for the masses.
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Keep it a two-sided map; after all, it's Axis versus Allies.
Limit the available equipment accordingly for each side; no spit vs spit or zeke vs zeke, etc.
Periodically (or by map if possible) narrow the choices by era if desired (EW, MW, LW)
These we do pretty much all the time, with occasional exceptions.
Open gameplay with base captures and win-the-war map resets to the next map in rotation
Try to limit the tweaking/customization of objects that would make auto-resets unmanageable
Base capture is usually enabled but we cannot have win the war auto resets, because
1. The custom tables we write that include base ownership and what planes are enabled at which bases, cannot be saved so that they will still be in place after the arena resets.
2. We cannot choose which maps will rotate in which order. It is random rotate, even the TA map could come up next, and none of the terrains it rotates to would have a 2 sided AvA configuration. Everything always has to be set up manually.
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Love the current setup as it is, finally getting a successful formula.. Bombers have their objectives, fighters have their dogfighting fun.
I. Icon settings: Keep them short or no icons. I for one loved the no-icons because it sharpened your dogfighting skills, watching the plane and where it is going, having more concentration on the fight. It has made me more focused on watching the enemy's wing banking or Nose orientation. In the MA, certain pilots just focus on distance and rate of closure by the numbers. They don't always see how the enemy approaches and if the enemy is setting up to get one maneuver ahead (ex: pulling early before a merge). No icons also intensify the realism factor and adrenaline factor where now you can actually lose sight of a bandit (which is a legitimate tactic to gain the upper hand in future dogfight position, and also sharpens the situational awareness). It feels AvA real, and to me that is historical and I carry those skills learned back into the Main arena.
II. Radar settings: Would like to see no-dot dar continue when you are outside a radar ring. However, I would like to know if dar-bar can stay turned off until you enter enemy radar. That would be a great tool for bombers to grab historical altitude and for fighters on the hunt to protect it's goals. This also adds to situational awareness, which in of itself is an adrenaline rush.
III. Deaths: Would like to try something like 3 deaths and you have to wait in tower 2 (or 3 or 4 minutes). This gives you the impression of protecting your aircraft so as not to do foolish things that prevent you from landing (ramming others, going into a 5 vs 1 on the deck slow that you know you'll die but you might take someone out in the process). This would aid the transition of certain MA folks who like doing these things and lessen the quality of a dogfight.
Is friendly kill-shooter and/or friendly collision turned on? It sounds like fun, but don't know if many would like it
IV. *Keep Bombing calibration the same throughout the week: I often try to gets squad mates to come practice in the arena by scheduling a night to do so, and in one instance (B29 raid to Hiroshima?) I succeeded in having 1 person come along on a bombing run only to find the arena settings were changed some time during that day to enable auto calibration. I think even remember seeing someone type on text that autocalibration was now enabled.
*Keep manual bombing calibration with the 'green' training crosshair. It's a fantastic compromise for folks who can't yet master accurate manual calibration. It shows them visually what happens when the speeds are not matched up. For those folks who say they just cannot learn manual calibration, it is all about performing the necessary steps in at the right time. When I first Joined aces high, the autocalibration was a difficult learning curve to master. Now I can do it in my sleep. Point is, it gets easier with practice where manual calibration adds just 4 more steps than auto, and requires a little more subtle movement but is doable. I taught someone in about 15 minutes and while using the B29 aircraft at 30k and 300mph. Besides, a bomber was never meant to be laser accurate.
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Besides, a bomber was never meant to be laser accurate.
This is key. A year or two ago someone else wrote that WWII medium and heavy bombers were not pinpoint target weapons. That was for the dive bombers and, later, the fighter-bombers. The heavies were city destroyers, factory destroyers, laying their bombs in patterns over an area. The realistic bomb sight makes this so. I suspect that people are just so used to taking out fighter hangers with B17s that they're disappointed they can't do it with a more realistic setting.
- oldman
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I like AvA the way it is basically~ I enjoy the challenge of limited icons which as Krusty points out does undercut the strengths of allied rides because of the limited visibility of con when viewed from above against terrain. Forces me to turn my jug to the limits and gets me killed more but I can deal with it.
I work week on week off out at sea Wed to Wed so I never get to play a whole setup. Sometimes miss ones I really want to play like Pacific Thunder for example. The factor of low numbers makes setups like The Other Side of the Coin with long flights a no sell though the plane set was great.
I recall in one BoB map setup a German base was accidentally located in South Central England and while it lasted there was huge participation because of the close proximity of the bases and like a light switch everyone left when it became the usual and historical flight across the channel. Ranger's map in Blood Bath was great for getting quick action, yet being able to launch buffs far enough away to get altitude. It seemed to enjoy a lot of participation as well. Basically, closer proximity = better numbers though less historically accurate geography. I think a wider choice of plane sets also encourages participation.
On the bombsite question I prefer auto calibration though less historically accurate, I figured out manual more or less but if you are engaged with cons at all, it is onerous to try to make any kind of drop with the extra steps.
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guys, alot of this stuff is very informative and very good, so keep it coming. im going to ask that the CM's steer clear of commenting on this thread please. we want to hear what the community has to say. they dont need to hear our responses why or why not.
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Hey Seadog! I'm trying to understand the perspective you and Krusty have on limited icons affecting the strengths of allied rides. Would you care to elaborate more about it, please? :aok
Also, a slight detour off into the ditch. How's your Swift coming along? O.K., out of the ditch and back on track with the thread. :salute
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guys, alot of this stuff is very informative and very good, so keep it coming. im going to ask that the CM's steer clear of commenting on this thread please. we want to hear what the community has to say. they dont need to hear our responses why or why not.
I understand what you're saying, Jaeger, but the CMs are a part a part of the community also. As such, they have a right to be heard also. Censorship, not a good thing. Everyone has the right to express their opinion.
Additionally, as part of the community, I prefer to decide for myself to decide whose responses I need to hear.
As always, many thanks to you and the rest of the staff for your on going hard work as volunteers in creating the weekly setups.
:salute
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Hey Seadog! I'm trying to understand the perspective you and Krusty have on limited icons affecting the strengths of allied rides. Would you care to elaborate more about it, please? :aok
Krusty and I don't usually see eye to eye, though on this point I agree. 109/zeeks are very difficult to see and BnZ/bounce from altitude as they are virtually invisible when seen from above. Forces the fight lower, giving the advantage to turnier a/c negating some allied a/c strengths 38/47/51. This is not hard and fast, allies still have the hurri/spit/f4f. but a generalization. F4us in the right hands are very turney but are still better exploiting alt.
Also, a slight detour off into the ditch. How's your Swift coming along? O.K., out of the ditch and back on track with the thread. :salute
It's getting there, will have to wait til Sept when I can get back down to SC to finish her up. Pretty excited to have her down to bare metal.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/JuneSwift2.jpg)
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So, if I understand your point correctly, it's about the size of the aircraft and it's ability to hide from detection using camouflage for the terrain flown over? If I'm understanding it, how did this affect the fights back in the day (real world WWII)? How did fighter pilots overcome small, hard to detect aircraft and deal with better turning opponents? :salute
She's looking lonely. :cry
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nevermind.
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Sorry Jaeger.
I did want to point out some of the things that we cannot do, so that folks would express what they would like to see within the parameters of what we can do.
They might think of workarounds that we haven't.
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So, if I understand your point correctly, it's about the size of the aircraft and it's ability to hide from detection using camouflage for the terrain flown over? If I'm understanding it, how did this affect the fights back in the day (real world WWII)? How did fighter pilots overcome small, hard to detect aircraft and deal with better turning opponents? :salute
I think aircraft are more difficult to see in AvA then they would be in real life(or in the MA's with the neon banners for that matter). In real life moving objects stand out and depth perception is more accurate depending on what kind of terrain the con is flying over. This is offset to an extent by dar dots but it is still is a factor. Over turquoise water this isn't an issue but I've never been able to adjust my gain and resolution to significantly change it over green or dark water.
I still prefer no icons though, and enjoy the challenge, but it still is a factor in skewing against allied rides. In WWII they utilized superior ACMs, organizational tactics, utilized their aircraft's' strengths and eventually overwhelmed axis pilots with numbers and better trained replacements. Allied pilots were explicitly instructed not to 1v1 turn fight with superior turnfighters. You know that though :salute
She's looking lonely. :cry
She actually has a big Swift grin knowing she is getting so many new parts and that she will be flying shiny for the first time in 10 years soon :D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewoi2KziWR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipsEYKRFsFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zvnrps0MRU
(http://wrench1smog.com/miscpics/new_karyu.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/j8m1-1.jpg)
Aces High now has a B-29 I hear. :D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewoi2KziWR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipsEYKRFsFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zvnrps0MRU
(http://wrench1smog.com/miscpics/new_karyu.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/j8m1-1.jpg)
Aces High now has a B-29 I hear. :D
Good lord it's Arlo! Thought it said Broken Wind, when I saw your name :)
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Wrong forum sorry
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Good lord it's Arlo! Thought it said Broken Wind, when I saw your name :)
Possibly it's just someone pretending to be Arlo?
- oldman
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Good lord it's Arlo! Thought it said Broken Wind, when I saw your name :)
Hehe .... that may work for my next CPID. :rofl
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Possibly it's just someone pretending to be Arlo?
- oldman
Now who in Hades would even wanna pretend to be me?! :cool:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewoi2KziWR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipsEYKRFsFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zvnrps0MRU
(http://wrench1smog.com/miscpics/new_karyu.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/j8m1-1.jpg)
Aces High now has a B-29 I hear. :D
To bad they got rid of the f4u.. :P
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To bad they got rid of the f4u.. :P
Noooooo! Say it isn't sooooooo! :lol
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Possibly it's just someone pretending to be Arlo?
- oldman
I donno. My cat's hiding behind the couch and my wife is no where to be seen. Definately Arlo.
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.
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wth. sorry double post. But seriously. Arlo. You're back? For good now?
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wth. sorry double post. But seriously. Arlo. You're back? For good now?
Not an active account running yet but the new wife appears to be willing to share me with Aces High. Of course, she hasn't experienced squad night yet. We're still honeymooning so it may be a couple months. But ..... the draw never left. :banana:
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New wife?!? :eek:
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New wife?!? :eek:
What's his name?
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What's his name?
STORCH!
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STORCH!
Don't be coy. They've suspected us for quite some time. ;)
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New wife?!? :eek:
Not like the old wife. Whew.
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:D
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I think aircraft are more difficult to see in AvA then they would be in real life(or in the MA's with the neon banners for that matter). In real life moving objects stand out and depth perception is more accurate depending on what kind of terrain the con is flying over. This is offset to an extent by dar dots but it is still is a factor. Over turquoise water this isn't an issue but I've never been able to adjust my gain and resolution to significantly change it over green or dark water.
I still prefer no icons though, and enjoy the challenge, but it still is a factor in skewing against allied rides. In WWII they utilized superior ACMs, organizational tactics, utilized their aircraft's' strengths and eventually overwhelmed axis pilots with numbers and better trained replacements. Allied pilots were explicitly instructed not to 1v1 turn fight with superior turnfighters. You know that though :salute
She actually has a big Swift grin knowing she is getting so many new parts and that she will be flying shiny for the first time in 10 years soon :D
Good observations, Seadog!
Some additional thoughts for consideration:
Real world: Constantly changing light conditions, aspect angles, background definition, and atmospheric effects as an aircraft moves in relation to it's background (ground or sky) can and does make an aircraft easily disappear in it's background. With so many variables in the 3D world plus the windscreen/canopy, sunglasses, or visor anomalies, and the effects of last night's beer front, it is often more difficult to pick the bogey out of the background, even when it's not intentionally trying to hide from detection.
In Game: The lighting conditions are relatively stable and consistent. Options are available in game to adjust resolution, graphics detail, gamma, etc and thus make the background more user friendly and detection of the opponent less challenging, if one so chooses. Similarly to out in the world, there are dirt specks on the monitor and fingerprints on the glasses to deal with. Can't tell ya how many times I've chased around after a dirt speck on my monitor. :lol
So, with these in consideration, I submit that icons may be better suited for the real world. It's good that you recognize the real world benefit of tactics and mutual support in combat. As you say, training and tactics are the key to superior air combat. That applies out there and in here. Using tactics is a way to overcome superior performance and/or numbers. In a combat situation where losing the fight meant more than going back to the tower and upping another pixel ride, the superior, training, and execution made the historic difference.
Just another perspective. As always, it's a computer game, it's $14.95 month that we each use as we see fit, and a whole lot of fun. :salute
Check Six! :aok
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Real world: Constantly changing light conditions, aspect angles, background definition, and atmospheric effects as an aircraft moves in relation to it's background (ground or sky) can and does make an aircraft easily disappear in it's background. With so many variables in the 3D world plus the windscreen/canopy, sunglasses, or visor anomalies, and the effects of last night's beer front, it is often more difficult to pick the bogey out of the background, even when it's not intentionally trying to hide from detection.
Perhaps it's just me, but in real world flying I have a very difficult time picking out anything smaller than an airliner. I keep telling people that planes should be painted blaze orange.
- oldman (glad I have the traffic device installed)
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Perhaps it's just me, but in real world flying I have a very difficult time picking out anything smaller than an airliner. I keep telling people that planes should be painted blaze orange.
- oldman (glad I have the traffic device installed)
Oh, it's not just you, Oldman. It's a very common every day event. You are right on. :aok. Brightly colored aircraft definitely make them easier to pick out of the background clutter. Almost like having a big icon to point them out, eh? :D
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Perhaps it's just me, but in real world flying I have a very difficult time picking out anything smaller than an airliner. I keep telling people that planes should be painted blaze orange.
- oldman (glad I have the traffic device installed)
Must be the reading glasses yer using to ILS pilot yer fancy plane (or GPS for you rich lads). Are the side-windows foggy? Try plastic polish to clear up the visibility. And of course, buying (cough) seamless bifocals help too, especially if you don't want to scare off the younger women. :D
Blaze orange? Heck, lime green works fine too. So does yeller, and magenta.
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I enjoyed the snap shots that have run in AvA. As a matter of fact I actually miss them :frown: They were well thought out & a lot of fun.
The objective based weeks have been alright, but for the most part on those weeks you get two types: the guys that stick to the plan while the 2nd type just furballs in a corner some where. Now the idea is to get these guys all doing the same thing. That's the hard part.
It occurs to me that we don't have a truly era specific arena. Here is what I mean, in the Late War arena, every fighter is enabled. From the earliest production model in 1938 to the latest WWII usable model. And they all fight against each other. P38 vs P51. La7 vs A6m2. What if there where a setup designed to spread over a mega front line area of bases the had era specific clashes between Axis & Allied plane sets. As an example, say Axis base 1 & Allied base 1 had say 5 late war birds available. Something along the line of :
Axis base 1 Allied Base 1
Bf109K-4 Spitfire Mk16
Bf109G-14 P-38L
FW190D-9 P-51D
Ta 152H P-47N
C205 La-7
Then the Axis & Allied base 2 would progress down the ladder with the next perceived round of matched planesets. All on the same map
Maybe even simpler, would to have a yearly progression of Axis vs Allies plansets. One week could be 1941 planesets spread out over the mega front. Next 1942 and so on and so on.
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noTch, I think they've run rolling planesets in the past. Seemed like it was a lot of work for them, but I'm not sure.
Having the arena set up with LW in one pair of bases, MW in another, etc. would be bad (in my opinion). There is nothing to prevent some turd from upping his LW bird and fly around the whole map, picking on everyone. AvA maps are not that big, and usually fuel burn is 1.0, so he could fly one sortie for two hours just picking on the earlier-era guys.
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Just figured i'd throw another Idea out there, but how about asking Hitech for something like an "AvA month"?
where for that month, the Main arenas are removed, and the focus be running scenarios in the AvA. possibly have a new one each week for the Whole month.
Or maybe an AvA weekend?
Where like above, every weekend the Main arenas would be removed and the AvA be the main focus. could run every weekend.
Most casual gamers don't truly know the fun in something unless they are forced into experimenting further with it.
like, They go into the AvA, and see that it has no-icons. there used to flying in the MA with icons, so they think it would be too difficult to play without Icons, and leave.
Or They merely see the restricted plane-set, and when they see there favorite plane isent a part of the current set-up, they leave because they think they can only enjoy the game in that one plane.
The low numbers also do not help, Ive been trying to get interested in the AvA ever since "the 8th comes over", but with such low numbers in there at a time its hard to truly Enjoy the scenarios as they are meant to be(Especially the objective-filled ones) This can most-likely be said for the Casual Gamer as well.
But if the AvA was the only Main arena for a time, it would force the Casual Gamers to actually give The AvA a real shot like its meant to be. And im sure alot of them will have changed-opinions of it.
Again, just my opinions :salute
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Back to the thread~ I would like to see Pacific Thunder again with the New Guinea Solomon Ils. map (I believe it is the Coral Sea map from Dillingers Wake) where the objective was to leapfrog up the East coast (Lae, Wewak, etc) of New Guinea and leap move over to Rabul.
Japanese (Knights)
A6M2- Sub for Ki-43
A6M3
Ki-61
G4M
C-47
GVs
M-3
M-8
M-16
USAAF (Bishops)
P-38G
P-47D11
P-40E
B-25C and H
B-24
C-47
GVs
M-3
M-4
M-16
Jeep
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Back to the thread~ I would like to see Pacific Thunder again with the New Guinea Solomon Ils. map (I believe it is the Coral Sea map from Dillingers Wake) where the objective was to leapfrog up the East coast (Lae, Wewak, etc) of New Guinea and leap move over to Rabul.
I've thought of moving it to that map. We've had some issues with that map in the past. One problem is the map is huge sometimes it's hard to find each other with the small numbers we usually have in the AVA. Next time I run it I'll move it to the Coral Sea map and see how it flys.
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Most of the action would be concentrated to the NE and NW of that map for sure. If there is anything I can do to help don't hesitate to ask me~ I'm sure I can stir up some interest and I really want to make sure it happens on a week I'm not offshore this time:lol
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Are the side-windows foggy? Try plastic polish to clear up the visibility.
Actually we used lemon Pledge on the Cardinal windscreens. Worked great!