Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bustr on August 15, 2019, 03:07:03 PM
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Gotta love real pilots.
https://www.wsmv.com/news/us_world_news/pilot-hailed-as-hero-after-bird-strike-disables-russian-jet/article_bd27a244-568f-5349-9049-417ec19894b6.html
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:aok
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One reason I advocate clearways. Since we seem insistent on eventually populating every inch of ground for miles around airports (and elsewhere for that matter) we need places like this just in case.
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Well done.
I found it interesting they said the pilot was highly trained at 3000 hours.
He definitely flew the plane and did a great job of getting it down.
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Well done.
I found it interesting they said the pilot was highly trained at 3000 hours.
He definitely flew the plane and did a great job of getting it down.
....and that he “made the only right decision”.
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I was recently reading an article about Boeing and their efforts to have code programmed on the cheap to get obstructive engineers out of the loop so they could meet deliverables. The engineers thought building systems to help pilots fly complicated aircraft was more important than the deliverables and kept finding life threatening problems. Turns out the Indians who programed the MCAS were not pilots\engineers and under bid everyone else to get the contract to get into the U.S. flight systems programing industry. Boeing wanted cheap and got cheap. From what I can get out of a number of articles at Bloomberg, today's Boeing is not your father's Boeing and the people running it are not pilots\engineers anymore. And the move to North Carolina also allowed them to get out from under all their union real engineer\programmers who were very expensive and actually stopped the production line to report problems.
Funny how you can reverse the curve and a pilot who happens to be a programmer probably can program for an automated license plate reader company or a digital spectrum analysis tool for heavy industries. But, a programmer who is not a pilot can't program flight systems that he has no clue how to fly the planes the systems will work in. Another no brainer Bloomberg was worried about for the future of the commercial flight industry. Seems pure programmers are cheaper than aeronautical\flight engineers who are also programmers and keep holding up the project becasue they are capable of designing, building and flying the aircraft they are programming the flight systems for. Boeing has been outsourcing it's programming becasue their engineers have been getting in the way of delivery dates for all the right reasons.
Bloomberg could just hate Boeing and is Pro Airbus so all the articles I dug up to understand this are Kaka.....
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Union has nothing to do with quality or quality control.
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By opening shop in NC they didn't have to include the union and their programmers who knew what they were doing and more expensive. MAX production was moved to NC for many cost saving reasons.
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You are short sited if you think union is better than non-union.
Non-union have to all work for their pay. Union means the bum gets paid the same as a hard worker.
Non-union quality probably better as everyone working on it is worth their pay scale.
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You are short sited if you think union is better than non-union.
Non-union have to all work for their pay. Union means the bum gets paid the same as a hard worker.
Non-union quality probably better as everyone working on it is worth their pay scale.
Put the crack pipe away. I'm a paying member of a union and I bust my arse day in and day out. Union does not = lazy but the union does prevent management from firing lazy sacks if they don't follow the proper procedures to do so (paper trail).
on a contract or in a work place both paying members of a union and slugs all get the same benefits from the union (federal law).
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Union doesn't equal crap MX. A crap mechanic = crap MX
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'Miracle in a corn-field' He sure did have to dodge quite a few obstacles to find that spot.
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Put the crack pipe away. I'm a paying member of a union and I bust my arse day in and day out. Union does not = lazy but the union does prevent management from firing lazy sacks if they don't follow the proper procedures to do so (paper trail).
on a contract or in a work place both paying members of a union and slugs all get the same benefits from the union (federal law).
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LOL I have experience in and out of the unions.
I stand by what I said.
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There is landing video here, one of the passengers was shooting from the inside
https://iz.ru/910455/2019-08-15/poiavilos-video-posadki-samoleta-a321-v-kukuruznom-pole (https://iz.ru/910455/2019-08-15/poiavilos-video-posadki-samoleta-a321-v-kukuruznom-pole)
Here the birds strike moment https://ria.ru/20190815/1557553410.html (https://ria.ru/20190815/1557553410.html)
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LOL I have experience in and out of the unions.
I stand by what I said.
You must have worked for a crappy union with weak stewards and the company had jellyfish for management.
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'Miracle in a corn-field' He sure did have to dodge quite a few obstacles to find that spot.
This is a scenario I emphasize with all my clients and co-pilots. Where will you go if the fire goes out?
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You must have worked for a crappy union with weak stewards and the company had jellyfish for management.
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No actually I have always been one that didn't need a union.
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Boeing moved production to NC to not pay union rates for the MAX with their very expensive unions. Obviously it cost them with the recent crashes. Boeing's unions are unique in how a vast array of real aeronautical engineering expertise resides in the membership. The new Boeing management was relying on the MAX to make money and be competitive with Airbus around the world so they wanted to reduce production costs with the NC move and outsourcing of programing for flight systems. You dig around at Bloomberg and all this shows up.
If anything non-union Boeing management is the problem since reading whistle blower reports over the MAX production shows management allegedly pushing out their experienced engineers over constantly standing in the way of production due to cost saving problems in NC. They allegedly would have had serious problems with the unions trying to do that in Washington facilities.
At least Boeing allegedly is upgrading the MCAS for all of the MAX fleet in response to the crashes.
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Unions are double edges sword. On one side they help prevent management from bullying MX crews and from getting fired for raising the BS flag. Often times, management has no idea what the respective MX fields do and what is entailed in their MX crews day to day job.
Management only care about numbers and meeting deadlines that were set by engineers who have no idea how to work in their respective area in the field. Yes, MX from the factory and MX at the field level are two separate beasts and completion times will vary depending on parts availability, support shop availability and let's not forget the ever present "opening a can of worms" when you dig in to a system for repair.
As an example, I am working on a mod that requires the entire cockpit be gutted (to include sub flooring), there are a few shops that we have to interface with to accomplish this modification: Avon, Engines, AR, Fuels, corrosion and E&E. anyone of these shops can find something wrong with their systems that will push the completion date by a few hours to a few weeks.
Chasing numbers will always lead to mishaps.
The other side of the sword, Unions also protect the slugs because management almost always screw up disciplinary paperwork preventing from legally firing the slug.
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Boeing moved production to NC to not pay union rates for the MAX with their very expensive unions. Obviously it cost them with the recent crashes. Boeing's unions are unique in how a vast array of real aeronautical engineering expertise resides in the membership. The new Boeing management was relying on the MAX to make money and be competitive with Airbus around the world so they wanted to reduce production costs with the NC move and outsourcing of programing for flight systems. You dig around at Bloomberg and all this shows up.
If anything non-union Boeing management is the problem since reading whistle blower reports over the MAX production shows management allegedly pushing out their experienced engineers over constantly standing in the way of production due to cost saving problems in NC. They allegedly would have had serious problems with the unions trying to do that in Washington facilities.
At least Boeing allegedly is upgrading the MCAS for all of the MAX fleet in response to the crashes.
Boeing South Carolina located in North Charleston only produces a few parts for the 737Max Engine inlet and nacelle. Parts for the 737 NG & Max (60+ %) are produced by satellite Campus's, Suppliers, and Vendors from all over the U.S. and abroad. Final assembly is performed in Renton Washington and delivery is in Seattle. There is a delivery center in China, but the last I read it was an interior finishing (only), and delivery center.
Boeing South Carolinas initial/ main purpose was and is to produce, assemble, and deliver the 787. They directly compete with the Boeing Everett Final assembly plant in Washington. This competition has kept the IAM Union and to a lesser extent the SPEEA Union representing Engineering/ Planning/ Programmers bargaining power in check since Charleston started delivering the 787.
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Pilots did a Sully. :aok
But, there were reports in finnish media how the flock of seagulls that the plane reportedly met were from the illegal landfills around the area and it was a known problem that the same seagulls liked to stay on the airfield tarmac to warm themselves up.
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You are short sited if you think union is better than non-union.
Non-union have to all work for their pay. Union means the bum gets paid the same as a hard worker.
Non-union quality probably better as everyone working on it is worth their pay scale.
100000% true when a janitor is getting paid the same as a pipe fitter you got a problem. That’s the part of a union I can’t agree with. Also union jobs tend to take longer to complete in my world.
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100000% true when a janitor is getting paid the same as a pipe fitter you got a problem. That’s the part of a union I can’t agree with. Also union jobs tend to take longer to complete in my world.
So if your job went union, would that automatically make you slower at your job or would you be the same workers under a union?
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So if your job went union, would that automatically make you slower at your job or would you be the same workers under a union?
It forced me to. Hard worker, do my job. Union shop and now Im going to fast, working too hard, making the other guys look bad. A number of guys had "conversations" with me about my work habits. Had to slow down or have trouble with the other workers. I've been in two unions and both sucked. They took our money for their bank accounts and didnt do crap for us other than to step in when management was trying to get the workers to work :rolleyes:
How stupid is that? Glad Im out of the unions.
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It forced me to. Hard worker, do my job. Union shop and now Im going to fast, working too hard, making the other guys look bad. A number of guys had "conversations" with me about my work habits. Had to slow down or have trouble with the other workers. I've been in two unions and both sucked. They took our money for their bank accounts and didnt do crap for us other than to step in when management was trying to get the workers to work :rolleyes:
How stupid is that? Glad Im out of the unions.
You aren't "forced" to be in a union (federal law).
The timeliness of you tasks is dictated by the company not the union. Your CBA would have read something like "deliberate slow downs of production can be grounds for immediate termination.". Why on earth would the union step in when management was just trying to get you to do your job? That makes about as much sense as a football bat. The only time a union steward will step in is if there is a grievance between a worker and his management... .
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You aren't "forced" to be in a union (federal law).
The timeliness of you tasks is dictated by the company not the union. Your CBA would have read something like "deliberate slow downs of production can be grounds for immediate termination.". Why on earth would the union step in when management was just trying to get you to do your job? That makes about as much sense as a football bat. The only time a union steward will step in is if there is a grievance between a worker and his management... .
Some places you still have to be in a union. Texas is a right to work state so no union required.
The protection of the slow worker is what the union is for. That is from experience.
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Protecting slugs is an unfortunate byproduct of protecting all union members.
The key issue that allows a slug to retain his job is the managements poor ability to follow their SOP when dealing with these slugs.
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Protecting slugs is an unfortunate byproduct of protecting all union members.
The key issue that allows a slug to retain his job is the managements poor ability to follow their SOP when dealing with these slugs.
Very true. Philadelphia's transit authority, SEPTA, and the applicable transit union, TWU 234, are a good illustration.
The resulting problem, though, is that it makes for a very unpleasant workplace. You screw up, even just a little bit, and you're gone. People are standing in line for your job. There isn't the room for give-and-take that you get in a less confrontational environment.
- oldman
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You aren't "forced" to be in a union (federal law).
The timeliness of you tasks is dictated by the company not the union. Your CBA would have read something like "deliberate slow downs of production can be grounds for immediate termination.". Why on earth would the union step in when management was just trying to get you to do your job? That makes about as much sense as a football bat. The only time a union steward will step in is if there is a grievance between a worker and his management... .
If I wanted the job I had to join the union. The company was wrapped around the unions little finger. Employees did what they wanted at the rate they wanted and if management gave them any crap, in come the reps. It is the most stupid setup ever. I was so happy when they worked their way around it by having another "group" buy out the company forcing a new "union vote" and I help tell those idiots where to go. Union vote failed....tho they tried for 3 years to get back in.... and those that WORKED for the company got taken care of and those that tried to "slide" got canned. Made a much better company in the end and we all make more money then when the union was "helping" us :rolleyes:
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If I wanted the job I had to join the union. The company was wrapped around the unions little finger. Employees did what they wanted at the rate they wanted and if management gave them any crap, in come the reps. It is the most stupid setup ever. I was so happy when they worked their way around it by having another "group" buy out the company forcing a new "union vote" and I help tell those idiots where to go. Union vote failed....tho they tried for 3 years to get back in.... and those that WORKED for the company got taken care of and those that tried to "slide" got canned. Made a much better company in the end and we all make more money then when the union was "helping" us :rolleyes:
Still sounds like your managers were "yes" men. Blame it on them as it's their fault.
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So if your job went union, would that automatically make you slower at your job or would you be the same workers under a union?
I’d shut the company down if I was forced to unionize.
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It forced me to. Hard worker, do my job. Union shop and now Im going to fast, working too hard, making the other guys look bad. A number of guys had "conversations" with me about my work habits. Had to slow down or have trouble with the other workers. I've been in two unions and both sucked. They took our money for their bank accounts and didnt do crap for us other than to step in when management was trying to get the workers to work :rolleyes:
How stupid is that? Glad Im out of the unions.
Same thing at our local AFB union new guys get “talked” to after their first few weeks cause they work to fast. Make others look slow etc. I get to see it first hand I have a family member whose a schedule planner out there. Sometimes it takes 5 men to do 1 job and tons of hours they don’t need. It’s pitiful.
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Same thing at our local AFB union new guys get “talked” to after their first few weeks cause they work to fast. Make others look slow etc. I get to see it first hand I have a family member whose a schedule planner out there. Sometimes it takes 5 men to do 1 job and tons of hours they don’t need. It’s pitiful.
The AFGE is a terrible union but, ACE, is this first hand knowledge or second hand knowledge?
I've worked civil service and was under the umbrella of AFGE and there were no slow downs, excessive hours, making union brothers look bad etc...
By the way, having a family member relay information to you is not first hand it's second hand.
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I’d shut the company down if I was forced to unionize.
Once your employees decide to Unionize, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.
If a union scares you, you should take some management courses, grow a backbone and follow your companies SOP and the CBA (collective bargaining agreement).
Follow those and you will not be found in fault.
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Once your employees decide to Unionize, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.
If a union scares you, you should take some management courses, grow a backbone and follow your companies SOP and the CBA (collective bargaining agreement).
Follow those and you will not be found in fault.
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He can close down.
Our employees have seen union work here. Very poor quality craftsmanship. Shop down in Freeport is union and their welding is very poor.
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He can close down.
Our employees have seen union work here. Very poor quality craftsmanship. Shop down in Freeport is union and their welding is very poor.
True closing down is an option but a piss poor option. That means the quality of mechanic that is being retained is subpar because the management has no backbone and the union does not police itself as it should. Union does not equal bad mechanics/tradesmen, piss poor mechanics/tradesmen and weak leadership always equal piss poor products and work ethics.
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True closing down is an option but a piss poor option. That means the quality of mechanic that is being retained is subpar because the management has no backbone and the union does not police itself as it should. Union does not equal bad mechanics/tradesmen, piss poor mechanics/tradesmen and weak leadership always equal piss poor products and work ethics.
Your experience is obviously different.
I am glad I did not have to have a union to be able to work.
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Your experience is obviously different.
I am glad I did not have to have a union to be able to work.
Apparently it has been. The common factor that I'm reading here about all of your experiences with Unions boils down to a few things:
1. CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement) not being followed by the Union stewards and management
2. Union stewards taking advantage of the management style being used in your past company
3. Company management being weak, almost as if they are "manager in name only" type of folks.
My experience comes from both sides of the fence when dealing with unions. When I was a supervisor, I sat the union stewards down and went over the CBA with them to remove any gray areas that may have existed and to explain my role and what I needed to get done as a supervisor. They explained how they interfaced with the company and what they needed to do as stewards.
I told them that I would prefer that the union police itself before I had to get involved. If the issue did not get fixed, I then started the proper trail to have the individual put on notice.
1. verbal (documented)
2. written
3. time off without pay (3 - 5 days depending on situation)
4. Termination
All of which were documented and signed by myself, individual in question and by the steward representing the individual in question.
I would also create "read and signs" on important aspects of the CBA and company policy (DOD civil service).
My time as a supervisor went well, there was never any legal battles, if someone got fired it was there own damn fault and the Union did not have a leg to stand on because I covered my bases as per Company SOP and Union CBA.
Now that I am no longer with Civil Service but with a contractor, my role as a Union member is to do my job, no more no less. The product I present is of the same quality as when I was civil service and active duty military. The CBA and company SOP are there for a reason. the fact that they were not being followed in all of your examples means that the failure is within the ranks of management and your Union stewards period.
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In the '70s worked for Sperry R&O plant. They had a union, a sub of the UAW, and Sperry was a slave driving company, so a union was required. There was a negative to the union tho, as the job I had meant I started work 20-25 minutes after I should have. This was so I would go on break with everyone else in my section. I also usually sat around at shift end for ~30 minutes doing nothing. This was day shift. On the graveyard shift got much more done as we said stuff it to the union.
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we get two 15 min breaks, no lunch and half an hour and the end of shift for clean up. We combine our two breaks so we can eat.
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Problem: union man running a lathe accidentally runs the bit to hard into the steel trips the reset button on the machine. Can’t reset it because that’s not his job to deal with electrical issues.
Solution: union man waits hours until the electrician comes and resets the switch. It’s 4 pm time for union man to go home.
That exact scenario above is why my uncle quit the union 40 years ago and opened up his own machine shop. He was tired of that bull crap. Worked very well for him.
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Problem: union man running a lathe accidentally runs the bit to hard into the steel trips the reset button on the machine. Can’t reset it because that’s not his job to deal with electrical issues.
Solution: union man waits hours until the electrician comes and resets the switch. It’s 4 pm time for union man to go home.
That exact scenario above is why my uncle quit the union 40 years ago and opened up his own machine shop. He was tired of that bull crap. Worked very well for him.
That sounds like a training issue. Was dude not trained on the machine? Was it written in to the SOP that he wasn't allowed to reset it?
Often times there is more going in than what is perceived.
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I was a union member and proud of it for my 37 year career - ALPA international - the Air Line Pilots Association.
I appreciate the opinion of those that see unions as socialistic liberalism but I suggest that those corporations that have unions have earned them. Those corporations that honestly demonstrate that they value their employees as their primary asset rarely have an issue with unions trying to organize their employees. And it isn't always about money... when people are treated like disposable commodities, they will ultimately find a way to fight back. We all know the stories, anecdotal or otherwise, of the long service employee dumped from his job a year before he becomes eligible to pension out.
The rules that have made air safety in North America did not flow down from the FAA or from airline management. They began when air mail pilots in the 1920's started to say no; and when they were fired for doing so, ALPA was born. This union still spends more effort on Capitol Hill fighting for air safety issues than any airline management. Had all those involved in aviation started with the goal of schedule with safety, this union would never been born.
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When I worked for BNR would take some electronics over to Nortel in Aylmer. Now the engineer would be screaming for the piece which why it was hand delivered. Would have to wait for a runner to take the piece to the engineer. Even he couldn't take the piece from me.
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https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials/fbi-raids-united-auto-workers-president-gary-jones-home (https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials/fbi-raids-united-auto-workers-president-gary-jones-home)
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https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials/fbi-raids-united-auto-workers-president-gary-jones-home (https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials/fbi-raids-united-auto-workers-president-gary-jones-home)
Corruption in a union? Never
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The age old adage is this...
...companies get the unions they deserve.
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The age old adage is this...
...companies get the unions they deserve.
Very true, when I worked down in S. Texas I refused to join the union because it sucked. Probably one of the most disorganized groups of people I had ever seen.
Their crappy negotiating affected me regardless of my Union status. I wasn't about to pay them to suck, they could suck for free.
oh, and that union was smashed with a few scandals (money stealing and what not) and the regional office had to run the union in our workplace.
fun times... .
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https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2019/08/04/report-leaked-documents-raise-concerns-about.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo (https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2019/08/04/report-leaked-documents-raise-concerns-about.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo)
https://aviationnews.online/2019/08/05/boeing-787-quality-issues-raise-their-head-again/ (https://aviationnews.online/2019/08/05/boeing-787-quality-issues-raise-their-head-again/)
Charleston with or without unions need to shape up.
KLM refused more Dreamliners from Charleston, and they were/will be built in Seattle.
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KLM refused more Dreamliners from Charleston, and they were/will be built in Seattle.
Interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/11/boeing-capitalism-deregulation (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/11/boeing-capitalism-deregulation)
I just keep getting the feeling that Boeing has become just another Libertarian Fraud for what used to be innovative powerhouses.
I suppose that maintaining share holder value became more important than a safe and reliable aircraft.
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I have been reading the post about unions v non union companies. it's all bs. I have never worked in an union company, but I can tell you this, there's lazy people everywhere who would do the minimum they can get away and even some who dont even try and yet they're still employed. seen employees really struggle to to do the minimum but they sit and work as hard as they can, I would rather have them that those who do the minimum and sit and talk about how they are the saviors of the company.
there's lots of rules in place, some are dumb some are for a reason. used to work at a steel company and when it got slow, I mean really slow, they didnt fire anybody. almost a year. so we swept, keep the grounds clean did lots of maintenance. my job was to keep sales floor clean, so I did it. once they asked me to clean the bugs off the lights, 4 and six feet halogen lights or whatever you call them. i said i cant, only electricians are allowed to do that, and we had plenty of electricians not doing anything, they would have gladly come and clean them just send an email and that's it. reason for that, some guy had one of those 4 foot lights blow up on his face, dont know what he touched, dont know what he did, but he had no experience at all with electricity. but he'll have the scars on his face for the rest of his life.
when it got busy we had guys who would take an hour to turn on the computer on the cranes, they were that dumb. they didnt get fired, because leaders didnt want to make trouble or do paper work. I know because I did reviews for a couple of them, they couldnt use a computer either. most of the people in my department were useless and those who did work, just kept their mouth's shut, it's a paycheck.
my work experience is basically 3 companies, seen people work hard and see new young guys, thinking they would reinvent the way we did business. it's was all bs, they never took the time to learn. Me I learned every single job around me, not because I wanted to change the company or wanted to be the best. It's because I learned fast and worked hard, it's not difficult, but It did cost me my first marriage and see my kids grow up.
you know what it got me, ripped tendons on my left leg and 2 back injuries. cant walk more than 1/2 a block and cant lift anything off the floor. I was fired because I was of no use to the company anymore. No thank you for working hard, or all the birthdays and holidays I missed. it was this guy is gonna follow you to the gate to make sure you dont come back anymore.
Thinking back, I should have been like those who barely made the minimum and got to go home. I still would have had a job today. all 3 injuries happened because I was tired. but what can I say crap happens.
semp
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Work goes both ways. If you are lazy you will generally not keep a job at a good company. If you are a lousy company you generally will not keep hardly any good employees.
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Work goes both ways. If you are lazy you will generally not keep a job at a good company. If you are a lousy company you generally will not keep hardly any good employees.
Well said.
Edit: Unions almost always create a lazy work environment. Takes 3 days to change a 5 ton AC compressor at the local AFB union.. takes me 4 hours or less and it’s done safely and properly, IE drier changed system flushed and perfect vacuum down to 500 microns. The guys at the union are literally scheduled 3 days of work on 1 unit that shouldn’t take 4 hours. That’s government too. Tax dollars at work I guess
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well like I said, never worked for an union company. worked hard to learn every job. at the steel company where I worked I did every job from leader to the lowest tier, sometimes I did that in a day. all it got me was a guy that followed me to the gate with flyers with a picture of me saying I wasnt allowed back. only because i got hurt and I was of no use to the company anymore.
maybe if we had a union, I would still work there, maybe I wouldnt.
semp
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well like I said, never worked for an union company. worked hard to learn every job. at the steel company where I worked I did every job from leader to the lowest tier, sometimes I did that in a day. all it got me was a guy that followed me to the gate with flyers with a picture of me saying I wasnt allowed back. only because i got hurt and I was of no use to the company anymore.
maybe if we had a union, I would still work there, maybe I wouldnt.
semp
For a long time companies have been required to have workmans comp or equivalent. Did you get hurt at home?
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For a long time companies have been required to have workmans comp or equivalent. Did you get hurt at home?
At work. And worker's comp pays crap. And thanks you just reminded me that we have long term disability. Just checked the package they sent to my house at termination. Just a single line hidden in a 10 page document mentions it. Gotta send this to my attorney.
Semp
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At work. And worker's comp pays crap. And thanks you just reminded me that we have long term disability. Just checked the package they sent to my house at termination. Just a single line hidden in a 10 page document mentions it. Gotta send this to my attorney.
Semp
Hopefully you can get the compensation you deserve.
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At work. And worker's comp pays crap. And thanks you just reminded me that we have long term disability. Just checked the package they sent to my house at termination. Just a single line hidden in a 10 page document mentions it. Gotta send this to my attorney.
Semp
Two ways to get hurt. f it is their fault you can get more than workers comp. If it is your fault then it will probably only be workers comp.
In any case it looks like you were working at a lousy company. They usually lose good hands.
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https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/27/business/boeing-737-ng-cracks/
How often are pickle forks normally checked for cracks?
It appears that these were only found b/c of a modification to convert a plane for cargo hauling.
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https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/27/business/boeing-737-ng-cracks/
How often are pickle forks normally checked for cracks?
It appears that these were only found b/c of a modification to convert a plane for cargo hauling.
For those who are in the industry, cracking in older heavily used airplanes is not news. Newsbrief folks, all airplanes crack somewhere; whether they're built by Commy unionists or tea party republican capitalists. That's why all involved with safety including the manufacturer monitor these problems through maintenance and inspections, so AD's and service bulletins can solve the issues before they cause a catastrophe.
But to heck with it; let's all keep maligning the Boeing Company and if we're successful, we'll only fly in the finest airplanes that France and Brazil can send to us... oh I forgot Japan; they own Bombardier now.
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For those who are in the industry, cracking in older heavily used airplanes is not news. Newsbrief folks, all airplanes crack somewhere; whether they're built by Commy unionists or tea party republican capitalists. That's why all involved with safety including the manufacturer monitor these problems through maintenance and inspections, so AD's and service bulletins can solve the issues before they cause a catastrophe.
But to heck with it; let's all keep maligning the Boeing Company and if we're successful, we'll only fly in the finest airplanes that France and Brazil can send to us... oh I forgot Japan; they own Bombardier now.
Not to sound snarky or anything but I’ll take EMBRAER any day of the week. They make awesome airplanes.
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Not to sound snarky or anything but I’ll take EMBRAER any day of the week. They make awesome airplanes.
I would too. Anything to avoid an airbus.
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I would too. Anything to avoid an airbus.
TOUCHE'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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For those who are in the industry, cracking in older heavily used airplanes is not news. Newsbrief folks, all airplanes crack somewhere; whether they're built by Commy unionists or tea party republican capitalists. That's why all involved with safety including the manufacturer monitor these problems through maintenance and inspections, so AD's and service bulletins can solve the issues before they cause a catastrophe.
But to heck with it; let's all keep maligning the Boeing Company and if we're successful, we'll only fly in the finest airplanes that France and Brazil can send to us... oh I forgot Japan; they own Bombardier now.
My question was not meant to be a dig at Boeing. (I think that perhaps a good case can be made that the last generation of mangers may have fatally damaged the company, but I was not advancing that point in my question above.)
I was just wondering how often planes are checked for these sorts of issues. If they were designed to be crack free for 90,000 flight cycles, when would someone normally inspect them? As reported, these cracks were found only because a plane was being converted. Reports read as if if that single plane was not being converted that the cracks would not have been detected until ...
https://komonews.com/news/local/exclusive-unexpected-cracking-found-on-critical-boeing-737ng-equipment (https://komonews.com/news/local/exclusive-unexpected-cracking-found-on-critical-boeing-737ng-equipment)
During a recent inspection, workers found a severely cracked pickle fork on a Boeing 737NG. The plane is relatively young, having logged approximately 35,000 flight cycles when the damage was found.
A retired Boeing engineer who asked to remain anonymous tells us, "It's unusual to have a crack in the pickle fork. It's not designed to crack that way at all. Period."
He says it's particularly concerning because it was found so early in the plane's service.
...
Light cracking is occasionally found in pickle forks, but it's very unusual.
Engineers say fatigue cracking, once initiated, grows every flight.
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My question was not meant to be a dig at Boeing. (I think that perhaps a good case can be made that the last generation of mangers may have fatally damaged the company, but I was not advancing that point in my question above.)
I was just wondering how often planes are checked for these sorts of issues. If they were designed to be crack free for 90,000 flight cycles, when would someone normally inspect them? As reported, these cracks were found only because a plane was being converted. Reports read as if if that single plane was not being converted that the cracks would not have been detected until ...
https://komonews.com/news/local/exclusive-unexpected-cracking-found-on-critical-boeing-737ng-equipment (https://komonews.com/news/local/exclusive-unexpected-cracking-found-on-critical-boeing-737ng-equipment)
I thought this might be useful:
Airlines and airworthiness authorities casually refer to the detailed inspections as "checks", commonly one of the following: A check, B check, C check, or D check. A and B checks are lighter checks, while C and D are considered heavier checks. Aircraft operators may perform some work at their own facilities but often checks, and especially the heavier checks, take place at maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) company sites.
A check
This is performed approximately every 400-600 flight hours or 200–300 flights, depending on aircraft type. It needs about 50-70 man-hours and usually performs in a hangar for a minimum of 10 hours. The actual occurrence of this check varies by aircraft type, the cycle count, or the number of hours flown since the last check. The occurrence can be delayed by the airline if certain predetermined conditions are met.
B check
This is performed approximately every 6-8 months. It needs about 160-180 man-hours, depending on the aircraft, and is usually completed within 1–3 days at an airport hangar. A similar occurrence schedule applies to the B check as to the A check. However, B checks are increasingly incorporated into successive A checks, i.e.: Checks A-1 through A-10 complete all the B check items.
C check
This is performed approximately every 20–24 months or a specific number of actual flight hours (FH) or as defined by the manufacturer. This maintenance check is much more extensive than a B check, requiring a large majority of the aircraft's components to be inspected. This check puts the aircraft out of service, and the aircraft must not leave the maintenance site until it is completed. It also requires more space than A and B checks. It is, therefore, usually carried out in a hangar at a maintenance base. The time needed to complete such a check is at least 1–2 weeks and the effort involved can require up to 6,000 man-hours.
3C check
Some authorities use a type of check, known as a 3C check or Intermediate Layover (IL), which typically includes light structural maintenance, including checks for corrosion, or on specific high-load parts of the airframe. It may also be used as the opportunity for cabin upgrades (for example, new seats, entertainment systems, carpeting) which would otherwise put the aircraft out of service for a significant time without the need for an inspection. As component reliability has improved, some MROs now spread the workload across several C checks, or incorporate this 3C check into D checks instead.
D check
The D check, sometimes known as a "heavy maintenance visit" (HMV) is by far the most comprehensive and demanding check for an airplane. This check occurs approximately every 6-10 years. It is a check that more or less takes the entire airplane apart for inspection and overhaul. Even the paint may need to be completely removed for further inspection on the fuselage metal skin. Such a check can generally take up to 50,000 man-hours and 2 months to complete, depending on the aircraft and the number of technicians involved. It also requires the most space of all maintenance checks, and as such must be performed at a suitable maintenance base. The requirements and the tremendous effort involved in this maintenance check make it by far the most expensive, with total costs for a single D check in the million-dollar range.
Because of the nature and the cost of such a check, most airlines — especially those with a large fleet — have to plan D checks for their aircraft years in advance. Often, older aircraft being phased out of a particular airline's fleet are either stored or scrapped upon reaching their next D check, due to the high costs involved in comparison to the aircraft's value. On average, a commercial aircraft undergoes two or three D checks before being retired.
And that last item I might add is that cracks can be caused by one or a series of hard landings. Unavoidable overweight landings can do the same. (a landing necessitated by an emergency in aircraft without fuel dump capability) All pilots in reputable air carriers know that they should log such an occurrence and can do so without fear of reprisal. This always leads to an extra inspection.
Hope this helped.
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Thanks Busher. You pilots always come through with interesting info.
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The investigation continues..... https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/uaw-vance-pearson-corruption-leave-of-absence (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/uaw-vance-pearson-corruption-leave-of-absence)