Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: SilverFox on December 16, 2004, 07:43:21 AM
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Well it's not an "officialy" sanctioned AH scenario yet, but I thought I would generate some interest. I wanted to wait until the smoke had cleared from Rangoon '42, and wow, what a tough act to follow. Dok, again, well done sir :aok
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The 327th Steel Talons, have developed the mother of all Carrier battles!!
- We have the design hammered out, and polishing has already commenced.
- We have a working terrain, but that too will improve.
- Team Zulu CO has accepted his commision. I am pleased to announce that ROC has accepted and I'm absolutely sure his participation will strengthen the immersion of the scenario.
- Team Alpha CO is pondering the offer. Both will need 2 subordinate Admirals.
- Coral Sea is designed as a 4 Frame switch sides, much like Midway. (Sorry =GB=, hopefully someday we'll have 6 frames) And its designed with current scenario player attendance in mind... 120 registered.
- There are many unique elements designed in to enhance the immersion, and lend historical significance to the famous first Carrier Battle. "What if" Radm Crace's cruiser task force catches the Japanese invation force at Jomard Passage??
So if it sounds interesting lets hear it. :)
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Actually I am going to have Skuzzy post a quick a radio button poll when you enter the MA to see what the whole player based is interested in.
Proposed scenarios are:
a. Siege of Malta (Axis vs British)
b. Kursk (Germans vs Russians - GVs and Planes)
c. Big Week (Germans vs U.S. - 8th Air Force bombing campaign)
d. Ploesti (Germans vs U.S.)
e. Coral Sea (Japanese vs U.S.)
f. Midway (Japanese vs U.S.)
g. Pearl Harbor (Japanese vs U.S)
I have data on all past scenarios and drop off from frame to frame, but want to get players opinions and find out what they are interested in.
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Thanks GD :)
Can we have an "All of the Above" button :D
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Ploesti would definitely get my vote, more so now that we have a B24 and more P38s enroute.
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I'm very interested. Count me in for any scenario that comes up -- it's what I fly for. Carrier battles sound interesting to me as does anything with a B-24 in it.
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Brooke, I would be honored to have your assistance as XO or Co CO on my team.
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Thank you, ROC. Normally, I would be very pleased to do so -- especially to serve with you. Just coming off CO duty, though, I have used up the portion of non-work time I have available for a while. I need to be a non-command pilot in the next one. Thank you very much for the offer, though -- I consider it an honor to be asked.
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Not a problem my friend.
Seeing how I opted out of a command position early in Rangoon, I understand your position completely.
I do look forward to your signing up and flying in any capacity, hopefully within my group.
I almost nearly probabably might not accidently inadvertantly place you in a strategic position based on your needs.
:) hehehe....
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a. Siege of Malta (Axis vs British)
too similar in design with last we play
b. Kursk (Germans vs Russians - GVs and Planes)
can be nice if we will get more gv's and russian planes from 1943
c. Big Week (Germans vs U.S. - 8th Air Force bombing campaign)
allways fun
d. Ploesti (Germans vs U.S.)
duck hunting
e. Coral Sea (Japanese vs U.S.)
zekes , no thanks
f. Midway (Japanese vs U.S.)
same , no thanks
g. Pearl Harbor (Japanese vs U.S)
???? Can i be ben aflec? ;) and Tokyo raid is included? ;)
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Kursk isn't really doable with the current VVS plane set.
The Next eastern front scenario could built off the Niemen, Kurland line.
Like 'Vistula-Oder' or 'Push to Berlin' or something else along those lines.
Siege of Malta? What time frame are you looking? '40-'43?
A good MTO / Italian event would be Po Valley.
Ploesti... turkey shoot (or duck hunt as Ramzey says). If not it would just be pretty boring.
Midway was already run and is basically just recycling the plane set from the last one.
Pearl Harbor? Are you kidding?
Coral Sea? I can see it as a snapshot but multi-frame event?
Big Week would bring the scenario numbers back up. Western Europe with plenty of Ami farm bois are always nice. All the planes are there. With the B24, and the addition of the P-38J it adds something different then the last time.
On the LW side the 110G is now in game. It wasn't there last time Big Week was run.
There's a good opportunity to create a new map that is better planned and laid out then the 1st one. No NOE bull**** all the way across Europe.
It seems to me the by far obvious choice would be a repeat of Big Week.
The next choice would be Po Valley, Italy...
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Basically those options are what should be going live today or tomorrow as a poll in the MA. I think we can all agree that the vast majority of players in AH don't visit the BBS. And that is one of the way we can find out what the broad base is interested in and also make them aware of future events.
Thanks for the feedback .. all of it is valuable.
Now to address a couple of points. First none of these have been committed too. I just don't want the scenario team to go off and start working on something if there is no real interest in it. Personally I would love to recreate the Japanese naval raid on Ceylon in the Indian Ocean. Think it would be very interesting to see Japanes and British carrier forces face off. But I also no not tons of interest in it. But I digress
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- Malta: Operation Pedestal took place in the summer of 1942. Basically the LW came close t bombing and starving Malta into submission. The actual Operation was battling to get a large convoy thru to Malta. Convoy was escorted Battleships and CVs. Would be part of an extended campaign of the LW trying to starve out Malta while British try to keep the island intact, get new planes in from CVs, and get convoys in.
- Ploesti: What comes to mind in Ploesti is the low level B24 attack. Actually Ploesti was attacked numerous times including a long range all P38 attack. So duck hunt .. possible but only one frame and the LW doesn't know what frame. Plus the ducks down all have to come in from the same direction.
So what is thought here (modelled on a scenario done in AW way in the past) is that Allied commander has conduct one P38 attack and one low level B24 attack with massive amounts of bombers but can choose the frame when to do it. Otherwise allies can conduct the more typical high level bomber and fighter attacks.
- Coral Sea: Yes might be two short for a four frame. But thoughts here are too conduct a couple frames as one side and then switch and rerun with both sides flying the opposite. Another thought is also possibly having the fighter squads switch to attack planes also during the switch. This way everyone gets to fly a fighter and are not condemned to fly a B5N for four frames. They fly B5N for two frames and then see about flying F4Fs for 2 frames. Problem there is that there are more dive bombers and torpedo planes than fighters.
Still thinking on that part. But the switching sides might definitely be a go.
- Midway: Yes we have done it before but it was several years ago (over 2). And while the old veterans have done alot of the new people have not.
- Pearl Harbor: This was actually done in AW and turned out to be a lot of fun. Basically the U.S. can not up until visual confirmation of IJN planes. But the U.S. is allowed to deploy the few planes on patrol where they want.
In that event a lone IJN pilot got lossed or ignored orders and bee-lined to Hawaii. A scout spotted him and the full U.S. force was up and waiting for the IJN when they came in. But if conducted correctly the U.S. should be struggling to get into the air.
Again this would be a side switch scenario. So while the U.S. most likely will be take a beating first frame they get their shot as the IJN to administer a beating too .. and then its based on the results of all the frames. So who can save how many ships, lose and knock out how many planes, etc.
Not sure if it appeals but it has been done before and been fun.
- Kursk: Personally I am not a fan of GVs at all in scenarios but some are so since we have the T34 thought this major battle would be the one too look at. Others thought the Battle of the Bulge but not a lot of air component to that one.
I agree that we need more GVs and more Russian planes. Then again we are looking at setting the scenarios for 2005 .. so we can hope that midway through or at the end we have more Russian planes.
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Ramzey if that is what it takes for HiTech to model B25s for AH .. hell yeah! ;)
Although Ben Aflec you are not. ;)
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The strength of the community lies in the commitment of its volunteers. I've spent no less that 200 hours researching and drafting Coral Sea, but if we can't find 120 players with a keen interest in real Carrier operations, then I'll gladly put it on the shelf in favor of another scenario.
Ploesti, on the other hand, has been hailed as one of the best scenarios ever run. =B17= can tell you how many hours have already gone into it, but I can say that it took four months of very intense work just to create the map/terrain. And I'm willing to do it again. As long as I belong to this community, I will campaign for this historic event.
In fact, I'll sign up for every single scenario regardless of side, or theater. Strictly on the strength of the month long historical immersion they provide. :aok
SF
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I swear off of scenarios every time I fly one, but if they put together a Coral Sea Scenario, ESPECIALLY one with a side switch after 2 frames.
I believe that the event would be best served in scenario format, given the numbers needed and the oranization involed. I've run several Carrier v. Carrier events over the past year and a half, and would love to see what a larger event could draw in.
I would kill to be a Flight Leader for the Kates :) My unit would be elite! haha! (don't get me started on my guys getting worked over in Kurland lol).
-Sik
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As this event get's moving, I will be garnering support and building the command base early. I like to ramp up well in advance, even if it is simply communicating the progress of the concept.
If you are intersted, please contact me and we can begin to orgainize on a preliminary basis.
RockCOBC@aol.com
I know this is very premature, but again, if nothing else, we can begin to talk it up and encourage interest.
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I've run several Carrier v. Carrier events over the past year and a half, and would love to see what a larger event could draw in.
-Sik
Sir, if you like Carrier vs Carrier, your gonna love this one. I'm a career Carrier sailor. Even been to the South Pacific on... get this... USS Coral Sea CV-43. And I wrote this scenario with real Carrier operations in mind. They turn into the wind to launch, just as every Carrier since the Langley has done.
SF
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Carrier battles would be a blast, especially if the element of trying to find the carriers can be effectively worked in. I played in a snapshot 1-shot event of carrier vs. carrier. That was very fun, and a scenario of it would be even better.
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If you remember the Pearl Harbor events in AW, then you remember the stationary carriers, that would "move" by having 3 locations to chose from.
Large maps with moving carriers that need multiple frames to get into the main attack position without being found, well, that just causes all sorts of reactions.
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Originally posted by Brooke
Carrier battles would be a blast, especially if the element of trying to find the carriers can be effectively worked in. I played in a snapshot 1-shot event of carrier vs. carrier. That was very fun, and a scenario of it would be even better.
Funny you should mention that Brooke. I have a Coral Sea Scenario about 80% done, that included two scouting frames. But I tossed it, believing that there wouldn't be enough interest in flying around looking for ships.
But I do have a plan for it :) If and when this thing gets wheels, I'll work with Silverfox on it. As a Navy Man, I'm sure he's got a place in his heart for MARPAT lol.
-Sik
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Can count on me anytime to support a Pearl Harbor scenario. I'll be glad to help with any of the others as well, but that one is always gonna be #1 for me. Esp. after flying the Japanese invasion route myself and checking off the landmarks to line up with the harbor .............
I flew it in AW and had a blast every time, AH could only make it better with carriers that really move.
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Pearl was my very first scenario. I flew with B17 and Dawn, after finally taking the plunge to try it.
We were in Kates, and as we dropped down out of the sky above Hickam enroute to Battleship row, my heart skipped a beat. I had never in my gaming life seen so much flak. We had practiced relentlessly. I made it through, leveled off at 150 ft dropped flaps let my fish go. My hands were so sweaty I had to wipe them on my pants. Just before my dishonorable death, I saw "Ship Destroyed" I was hooked! forevermore, on scenarios.
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Coral Sea
Sik, while Coral Sea was famous for the Carrier battles, the underlying premise was the impending Japanese invation of Port Moresby. That, I have built in so that what the allies realy have to do is exactly what RAdm Fletcher's orders were. Stop that invasion.
SF
Semper Fi !
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Unfortunately, thats the BIGGEST reason I don't want to do scenarios anymore.
Originally posted by Sikboy
(don't get me started on my guys getting worked over in Kurland lol).
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Kursk: Personally I am not a fan of GVs at all in scenarios but some are so since we have the T34 thought this major battle would be the one too look at. Others thought the Battle of the Bulge but not a lot of air component to that one.
I agree that we need more GVs and more Russian planes. Then again we are looking at setting the scenarios for 2005 .. so we can hope that midway through or at the end we have more Russian planes.
FWIW, the Kursk series of events I ran were generally considered to be the most fun of all (and, no, there were no GV's involved). That's kind of why I'm planning Donjetsfront for next year - even with the current planeset. My designs aren't as focused on precisely accurate plane-v-plane match-ups as recreating the operational environment, so subbing a Yak-9U for a Yak-1 is within limits. Technical differences can be made up for in jiggling the odds and flight parameters.
But I will be keeping an eye on how many people sign up for the next few events. If numbers continue to dwindle it may not be worth the time, effort, and money needed to try to put on a truely large-scale (300+ player, 8-frame) event with prizes and souvenirs and all that cool stuff. And, frankly, I have little interest in running anything less than that.
In all my years doing events in AW and WB, the only reason I ever heard for people "swearing off" scenarios was that it was too much flying time for not enough shooting - they wanted the quick fix of the MA. There is clearly something else going on with AH scenarios.
And there's the paradox. You have all this moaning about how crappy the MA has become, yet no one shows up for scenarios - which can provide big furballs, great team spirit, and a generally balanced chance to win.
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I too would like to see greater participation with 300+ registered and 6 Frames.
Coral Sea is designed for 120 because that's what we are seeing right now. However, it is scaleable to 250 without a design modification. Just an increase in squadron size.
Personally, I'd rather see 120 registered players who would actually show up.
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Originally posted by SilverFox
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Personally, I'd rather see 120 registered players who would actually show up.
Amen.
Email me if you wanna discuss a pre-event promo movie. A task force with several CV's would be kinda cool on film.
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Not official yet Dok. Possibility that it won't even be a go. Depends on some decision making that's going on.
However, :D , I will gladly take you up on that if we get a green light. Now, TF-17 all together woud be a "sight to see."
SF
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Originally posted by SilverFox
Not official yet Dok. Possibility that it won't even be a go. Depends on some decision making that's going on.
However, :D , I will gladly take you up on that if we get a green light. Now, TF-17 all together woud be a "sight to see."
SF
There's also a lot of "what if" events which can be interesting. In the CV domain, there's the hypothetical of if the Germans went ahead and got a battle carrier build and deployed in the North Atlantic. Lots of interesting possibilities.
But I digress ...
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:lol I can see the title now...
Das FlacheOberseite
The FlatTop
;)
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
In all my years doing events in AW and WB, the only reason I ever heard for people "swearing off" scenarios was that it was too much flying time for not enough shooting - they wanted the quick fix of the MA. There is clearly something else going on with AH scenarios.
The Same things that you saw in Rangoon are what usually keep me away from Scenarios. You sit down and come up with a plan, you put down some rules, and you go get some players.
Then the **** hits the fan, players whine about how the rules are set against them (and who knows, maybe in some cases they are), then people cant even be bothered to play within the established rules, and there's more whining.
Frankly it just seems like a long run for a short slide. I cannot imagine the patience that you and the Scenario CMs must have to deal with this crap. While I'm a huge fan of events, Scenarios start to become too much like work, and a lot less like fun. If it wasn't for the Weekley events, I'm sure I would be more interested in Scenarios.
This is all rather funny, considering you're scenarios were the big reason I bought the SVGA Airwarrior Box (Yes, I was one of the 1,000 dweebs).
We had an "Alternate History" Event running for about 2 years. It was derailed when we Came over to AHII, and lost the terrain base that we had, but in the CAP event, there was a frame or two with the Graff Zepplin. It's amazing how easy it is to land a Stuka on a CV lol.
-Sik
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
c. Big Week (Germans vs U.S. - 8th Air Force bombing campaign)
For that one, I’d like to become part of the CM team. As ramzey points out, 8th Air Force Bomber campaigns are always fun and Wotan is right, it would bring the numbers. Done right, and soon enough, the next one would benefit from the interest generated.
I’m partial to the A6m2, even with it BB guns, or the 109g2, so I’m in with either of those. Any m2s in Coral Sea or Midway? :)
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My only real issue with late-war scenarios is that you're flying the same crap you fly in the MA all the time, and that the most interesting times of the war happened before 1944.
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We are reworking are approach toward scenarios a bit. There are a couple things that I have identified from past participation (I was in Midway), rule creations, and dissemination, etc. that we are changing.
Plus, for 2005 we are going to do a scenario every 4 months .. so 3 a year. Which gives an extra month to market it and work out the bugs. I believe the extra time is needed for now.
We are also probably going to focus on the next scenario being a big name / well known scenario. Part of the slide in scenarios was do to the transition from AH1 to AH2 but there are many other factors. Part is grabbing the attention of the player base.
It seems the more new pilots in the MA aren't really aware of scenarios or interested in the more esoteric /little known battles. A Big Week, Battle of Britain, Midway, etc. that are well known tend to pull numbers just because of their name.
Rangoon 42 might not have pulled numbers for lack of a better marketing push and also because of the subject matter not being widely known. So newer people did not sign up for it in large numbers. However, even if that is the case you will note that the people who did sign up for it stayed! It only had an 18% drop off from numbers from the first frame to the fourth.
To put that in perspective Midway had a 24% drop off. Rangoon actually tied for second place for the scenario that had the least drop off. So the people that got in their stayed.
So basically looking to hook people with one well known battle. Get them in the door and then run it so well they get the bug. Then the next one can be a battle that is more off the beaten path. And then the finally one of the year can be a big battle again or a more esoteric one depending on how the first two of the year went.
Right now .. and this is just me .. was thinking about Ploesti or Coral Sea for 1st, Siege of Malta (1942) for second, and then third could either be a Kursk type event or Ploesti/Coral Sea.
However, that is just me and its why we are actually going to run a poll in the MA. To gauge interests.
As for what if .. as I said I would love to see the Indian Ocean campaign. Where the Japanese brought in four CVs and attacked Ceylon. The British actually brought in several fast carriers to stop them but were out of position for the first Japanese attacks and then it was a cat and mouse game where neither side came to grips.
I think it would be interesting to have Sea Fires and Hurricanes face off againist A6M2s. But just me .. maybe for a Friday Night Squad Ops event.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
Any m2s in Coral Sea or Midway? :)
Of course. It was 1942, and the Zero (a6m2) was still the Japanese Naval fighter. My personal favorite plane is the Seafire ;)
GhostDancer, I'm hoping you've been in contact with =B17= on Ploesti. My understanding was that he wanted quite a bit of time to spin up. I've offered to help out with that one, since I was on the team that did Ploesti in AW. Man, what we can do with moving trains in AH, and refineries, its gonna be awesome:aok But to do this map justice will take some time, and my understanding is that the map is not started. I could be wrong.
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
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Right now .. and this is just me .. was thinking about Ploesti or Coral Sea for 1st, Siege of Malta (1942) for second, and then third could either be a Kursk type event or Ploesti/Coral Sea.
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OK ... I actually have two Eastern front designs I'm working on. One (Donjetsfront) is already posted in preview on my site. The other is a hypothetical, but would really be interesting to do.
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I'd like to see more than 3 scenarios a year if each scenario is 4 frames long. At 4 frames each, 3 scenarios means scenario flying for 3 months out of 12. Any ability to increase that number if there are more scenarios ready and waiting to be run?
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Possibly, however I made a decision to cut back to 3 for now. Since I don't think that several of the past scenarios were cooked enough on the rules, marketed, etc.
I sort of felt like they were rushed into and several things that should be looked over weren't and issues came up in game play.
So for right now I only worried about putting together 3 solid ones. Yes, 1 every 4 months. Instead of just trying to pump them out the door.
That might change if the next couple go really well.
Also want to work on leveraging the members of the squad ops event into scenarios (we get close to 180-200) in Friday Night Squads Ops events. And also use ties with the RJO to also bring in numbers.
Figure out a way to get squads more interested and use them to whip up enthuisiasm among their pilots while at the same time leaving a good mix open for independents in both flying and leading.
Couple other things were under discussion also on structural changes and marketing.
So we will see.
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Ploesti map is not started. The new TE should be out soon .. so we would need to make a Ploesti and other maps.
I need to get in touch with B17.
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Possibly, however I made a decision to cut back to 3 for now. Since I don't think that several of the past scenarios were cooked enough on the rules, marketed, etc.
That's exactly right. Just because an event has been scheduled for 8 months doesn't mean it's ready on time or should go forward, particularly if a substitute is finished and ready to go.
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Rangoon was definately rushed - but I had no choice, and it's a good thing we rushed. The next window was February and as it turns out that would have been an impossible date for me.
Ghost, you and the other CM Staffers may want to check into the off-site BBS I rigged to discuss scenarios at my hosted forums (http://forums.gonzoville.com/). We're also discussing promotion, web support, and so on from a player-contributor perspective. Plus we can swear on my BBS. :D There's a lot that us old bastards can add to the effort now that we're awake again.
3 or 4 events per year - if they're done right - is plenty. I'd say 3 is OK if they're at least 6 weeks long each. That's 6 weeks flying and 6 weeks of promo, registration, and practice - with a month off in between for the CM staff.
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PS/ SF, I tried replying to your email but it bounced. I think you used the wrong address when you used my form to contact me. I just replied again to the address you have on your homepage.
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I think I'll sign up for the next scenario, never flew in one, but walked on BoB once. Was a change of pace.
Anyway, I voted for Malta just because I've always loved that chapter of JG26 "Schlageter" about the Red Hearts. That said, I really don't care what is next. Ploesti could be cool.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
PS/ SF, I tried replying to your email but it bounced. I think you used the wrong address when you used my form to contact me. I just replied again to the address you have on your homepage. [/B]
I got that one, which, BTW is the same one I used on the form. My ISP had an exchange server glitch, and nothing was getting out or in. Fixed now.
Its good to see people are actually voting with some thought. Nothing looks really that interesting when its boiled down to who vs who.
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Has this senario ever been run?
This would be pretty cool.
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Actually, the Turkey shoot was later in the War.
Some arguments for Coral Sea:
It will be difficult for Coral Sea to compete against Midway or Pearl in a vote because less is known about the actual battle. Sure, most people know that it was the first CV to CV battle, but there was never (to my knowledge) a movie made about it, nor some great tragedy that brought the nation together on an issue. Its simply not as well known.
However, for scenario purposes, Coral Sea offers an excellent opportunity for two balanced sides to fight a historical battle that actually resulted in a split victory. There are elements built in to keep players in the frames, and the victory conditions are designed to assure a stand up out of your chair finish. As an avid scenario player, veteran of many, Group leader in many, I put into it what I felt blended historical perspective, with playability. Above all, I wanted people to be drooling for the next scenario.
I've blended the historical elements, like Admiral Crace's CA task force into the scenario, and as those LTVs are trying desperately, under heavy fire to go feet dry at Port Moresby, you can bet they are hoping that the Royal Navy task force isn't close by.
The feedback I am getting from those who have read the proposal is very positive. Coral Sea, has the potential to be fun :aok
SilverFox -- AH
=SC= -- AW
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I would vote for Coral Sea . . .
Jordi
Lurking . . .
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The only real issues I see with doing CS next are:
- 2 early-war Pacific events back to back.
- The general unpopularity of early-war Pacific.
- Special rules needed to prevent MA-style anti-shipping attacks (since we are in the pre-Kamikaze era at this point of the war).
The first two issues can be helped with pre-event promotion and getting things like patches and prizes worked into the offering.
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Last week, I played in a snapshot involving early-war aircraft and a carrier attack (A6M2's, Vals, Kates, F4F's, SBD's). It was very fun. One thing I noted is that the Japanese divebombers and torpedo bombers have a tough time climbing all that high. Also, if you are too high, you won't spot the carrier group. If you want it even more thoroughly restricted, you can put in an alt-capping wind layer.
I liked the aspect of having to find the carrier group. In this case, we were told the sector it was in, and it still took us a while to find it.
As for suicide attacks, there are two things that occur to me. First, if there were two missions per frame, and if the second mission aircraft numbers were influenced by surviving aircraft from the first mission, that might help. Second, I'm not sure how survivable attacks on carriers are in Japanese aircraft. We had about 6 divebombers go in together, and while almost all of us made it in on the carrier, I think none of us made it out. Mostly, we were shot down by AA on our way out, once we were at lower altitude. Add more fighter defenses to the mix, and I'm not sure any would get out even if you lessen the AA defenses somehow.
Still, it was very fun. I really like carrier-to-carrier combat, especially if you don't know the enemy's exact location and have to find him and especially if surviving a mission would involve landing back on the carrier deck.
It would be most fun if each side is working to hit the enemy carrier or carriers while trying to defend their own. That way, you don't just hang out near your carrier and wait for the slow divebombers to lumber in.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The only real issues I see with doing CS next are:
- 2 early-war Pacific events back to back.
- The general unpopularity of early-war Pacific.
- Special rules needed to prevent MA-style anti-shipping attacks (since we are in the pre-Kamikaze era at this point of the war).
The first two issues can be helped with pre-event promotion and getting things like patches and prizes worked into the offering.
I agree with the first and second issues, but I think they can be overcome as noted.
The rules are written. And with plenty of scenario experience, and a fresh one (Rangoon 42) to contemplate, I designed in rules that give the COs plenty of room to operate. There is a tight plane attrition rule that pretty much governs the deployment. Expending valuable aircraft on suicide attacks would all but ensure defeat.
Coral Sea was written as "What If" because most of the decisions and resultant actions were guesswork, and mis-calculation. Any one of several elements that contributed to this battle could have fallen on either side of the fence. Its well researched, it has "fun factors" built in, and it only needs a chance.
SF
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Originally posted by Brooke
Last week, I played in a snapshot involving early-war aircraft and a carrier attack (A6M2's, Vals, Kates, F4F's, SBD's). It was very fun. One thing I noted is that the Japanese divebombers and torpedo bombers have a tough time climbing all that high. Also, if you are too high, you won't spot the carrier group. If you want it even more thoroughly restricted, you can put in an alt-capping wind layer.
There are a few things that go on in most of the early war Pacific carrier duels that I've been a part of (And I have spent a good deal of time working on the problems). The race to the sky is an interesting issue, because as you mention, if the Attackers come in too high, they will have a very hard time locating the fleet. At the same time though, if the CAP climbs too high, they will give away the location of the fleet.
One way that players have attempted to keep the CAP lower, is to send the Torpedo strikes in NOE. This almost always results in 100% losses in the Torpedo forces, but does occupy the CAP for about 45 seconds :p
Anyhow, with short ICON ranges, I think that either side could use enough feints and draws to keep the CAP honest. It has also been my experience that even if the CAP has an alt advantage, once the strike force locates the CV, the bombers will get through.
As far as survivability goes, there are a few things that can be handled there. The first is to bring down the lethality of the ship ack. The second is to manually remove some of the 5" turrets from the fleets.
If and when this goes forward, I'll dig out the data on the different fleet gun setups we used in the CAP event, they ranged form MA standard (buthery) to waaaay too easy (2 vals dropped, got hits and flew out on the deck without getting killed lol)
-Sik
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The Carriers where positioned close togehter. The thinking being that the IJN knowing what sector the enemy carrier was in would have the opportunity for a fast , quick strike. This would negate the altitude grabbing and cause a more realistic battle. So much for that idea the Zekes went Northeast into 12,6 and then south to the carrier which was in 12,7. The attack force went south to the very bottom of 10,8 and then east and with some timely bulletins and intercepted radio messages (I like to think so) they turned North at 10,8,2.
The Zekes where engaged by the Allied fighters north of the carrier and where all shot down in sector 12,6. Due to the fact that the Zekes are faster then the bombers the allies had time to engage, fight and fly almost a full sector back to there carrier and establish a CAP before the IJN bomber attack. Some of the IJN did get through and hit the carrier causing substantial damage. Unfortunately not enough to cause the Lex to sink.
The carier was set to destruct at 1,500 lbs. and the ack was set to .5 both settings are below MA standards.
Maybe by positioning the carriers so close it caused the opposite of the intended effect. :confused:
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Using bar-dar and down-wind will keep things playing out at reasonable altitudes.
While Zeke's are pretty fragile, they do have cannons. And cannons can shoot down ships. So I can see where if the Vals could knock out most of the AAA, then the Zeke's could go in and finish the ships off. Since the US has no cannon-armed planes, this is an imbalance which could be exploited.
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I'm really not concerned about altitudes. Or putting the ships close together. In fact, there are plenty of opportunities to use historical tactics on the larger map. And I see no reason to set the carriers damage capacity any lower than 8K. In fact its probably better to set it higher, since the loss of a carrier involves the loss of all "non airborne" planes of its compliment. In addition, all planes must recover on a friendly carrier or be lost to attrition. Sacrificing planes will tip the balance in the NME's favor.
There are many questions that I'll need answered. But I'm standing firm on many of the rules. I'm confident that my CO's can use proven tactics to find Carriers.
We still don't even know if Coral Sea will be a go this year. ;)
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Oops should have quoted Brooke. (Probably should not have even posted in this thread now that I see the title. It popped up in my email and I posted.) I believe he was commenting on a Snapshot that was run last Thursday. Reply was meant to give him some insight into how it was setup and why. As far as using snapshots as means of formulating scenarios that would be like comparing apples and oranges. Not good
Your scenario Coral Sea is one I am hoping will be scheduled this year :)
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Originally posted by 68falcon
Your scenario Coral Sea is one I am hoping will be scheduled this year :)
Thank you, sir, for that vote of confidence.
My friends, I realize that everyone has good intentions, and that I may seem a bit defensive on some issues, particularly, since we are not confirmed. If and when Coral Sea gets a green light, I would make the entire outline accessible for comment, and tweaking where necessary. Up until a few weeks before the frame.
Coral Sea has a detailed outline that I hope stands as a comprehensive scenario designed to replicate the elements of the original battle. For instance, the number of planes is identical to the original compliment by squadron.
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I hope its a go. I cancelled work for 2 months :P j/k