Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Lance48 on March 02, 2009, 12:09:03 AM
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I’m loosing too often in vertical loop fights. Is there a trick to get inside when two planes are in a vertical loop fight? Assume both planes start equal in altitude and energy.
I believe it must be me and not the plane. I lost in three loop fights.
Me in Yak9u VS F4U-1
Me in Yak9u VS Spit 16
Me in BF109g6 VS KI84
I know it’s not great info to start, but any tips for such battles would be great.
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if you arent using flaps then there is your first problem, also when your nose is towards the ground are you chopping throttle, and some of those fights were gunna be losses just because of the planes you were going against :salute
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auto trim off!
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In the Yak9u flaps are not going to be a huge help. He's normally going to be better off keeping a bit faster that the flaps will deploy at.
F4u & spit 16 in good hands can both be a handful for the yak to deal with.
109 vs KI-84 again you want to keep the fight just fast enough so that the KI-84 can't deploy flaps on you.
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Me in Yak9u VS F4U-1
Me in Yak9u VS Spit 16
Me in BF109g6 VS KI84
With equal pilots you should lose all three of these "loop" fights.
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Thanks guys. Back to training arena for me to see how best to get out of that situation once I've committed to a losing fight.
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Better check to make sure you don't have the Stall Limiter enabled in your Flight Options. That will severly handicap you as well against someone who is flying with it off...
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You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM. Learn the hammerhead maneuver. See a trainer. :aok
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You should have lost all three of those in a continuous looping fight. If you're losing looping try something else.
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You should have lost all three of those in a continuous looping fight. If you're losing looping try something else.
only heres your sign :D
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You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM. Learn the hammerhead maneuver. See a trainer. :aok
Really got to wonder about performing a hammerhead maneuver with an nme fighter on your six. The Hammerhead is a vertical maneuver allowing the aircraft to become very slow, I got to think that at the point in the maneuver where you apply ruder to swing the nose 180 degrees to point down. That about halfway through the maneuver the pilot performing the hammerhead would be dead. The whole point of the looped fight is to prevent the nme from getting angels for a shot.
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Loops have a tendency to take a while to complete. Time is mone...wait a minute. Let's start over...
A loop can be akin to an airline pilot trying to not make all the passengers sick by rolling hard and pulling too many G's.
The average bank angle in a passenger plane is 22.5 degrees although they can and do exceed it. Nice turn but not gonna keep the average fighter pilot alive in a dogfight. That nice turn is what we sometimes call a flat turn on the horizon. It's fairly easy to
cut inside. Let's take a look at why this may be happening.
We can begin by waiting until your wife, girl friend, mom, etc., decides to boil up some hard boiled eggs and when they are not looking grab one before the shell gets broken and peeled off. Now take that egg and sit it on it's fat end. Ever notice how it has a pointy end and a big round end? Let's call the big round end the "fat end". Alternatively, you can draw an egg on a piece of paper or even use a lil imagination and see it in your mind. Whatever, works for you is great! Personally, I like using an egg cause then I can snack on it later...
Ok, so now we have an egg sitting on its fat end. Grab a pen and start anywhere on the egg. Draw a line anywhere around the egg so that you end up back where you started. That line you drew can be described as how a plane flies through three dimensional (3D) airspace. Draw a few more lines....cool, huh?
Let's take a look at your loop. If you ease your way through the top of the egg so that the plane doesn't merely fall over (gravity assisted?) and begin going back down you are performing a loop. As you draw the line further down the shell of the egg and pull through the bottom of the loop you will notice you are down there in the fat end of the egg. So gravity and your planes engine speeds up your downhill run to the bottom of the loop which created a fairly wide base of the loop. You can pull for all your worth and may even go into black out if you pull to hard. But, the plane is going to perform that big bottom of the loop dependent on your planes speed. Other factors are involved dependent on the type of plane but for now let's just stick with the egg. If you pull for all your worth going up over the top and down through the bottom you will basically describe that same line you drew around the egg. The same plane following you may be easing his throttle back a little bit going over the top. This creates a bit more flop over on top. It also can put him diectely inside your turn. If he keeps his throttle down his turn through the bottom of the loop might be a little tighter than yours. As you both go back up he adds war ermergency power (wep) and maintains position. Repeat and each time he may further close that gap until he has you. Simple but effective use of the egg.
Let's go back to our airline pilot flying that nice flat turn designed to allow the passengers to retain their lunches. Grab your pen again. Let's say your are turning into that slower plane and you need to slow a bit to match his speed for a comfortable shot.
If he is driving around that fat part of the egg and you are speeding in a slight nose up deviation will do the same thing that your loop is doing. As you nose up the plane slows a little, you pull back in. If you are too slow you can nose down, again gravity helps along with the engine pulling you downhill and you speed up and climb back to his 6 and BANG! These two maneuvers are called a high and low yoyo. Draw them on your egg.The principle doens't change. It merely uses the vertical to help control speed. BTW, a high or low yoyo may require only a hundred feet. Maybe a little more or even less. It's sometimes hard to see a hundred feet when doing 300 mph but after a while you begin to judge speeds, angles and the vertical more effectively. Going back to the egg you can actually draw a line anywhere up or down the side of the egg from the bottom of it up to the very top. The higher you draw the line the tighter you might turn your plane. Lastly you might get behind that flat turning dude and cut your throttle a little, maybe even drop flaps if required and turn right inside him for that satisfying BANG!
Lessee, back to the loop a last time... A loop might be considered a flat turn in the vertical depending on how it's flown.
There's some much to learn...but ya gots lotsa time. :) You've probably read many terms on flying. Every one has a meaning and a use in a dogfight. Putting them all together let's you begin to use tactics to control and win the fight. Terms like unloading, lift vector, zero-G dive, the 3-9 line, flying to the post (there's so much more, too) all have a place in a dogfight and the more you learn the funner it gets!!!
Spend some time with a trainer. They can help you make the funner happen sooner. BTW, if yer done writing on that egg mind if I grab it? I can use mine and make myself an egg salad sandwich.
Hope this helps.
:salute
Ren
Aces Hgih Training Corps
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You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM. Learn the hammerhead maneuver. See a trainer. :aok
:aok
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You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM. Learn the hammerhead maneuver. See a trainer. :aok
Disagree with that comment on the basis not all aircraft do well when they become slow enough to actually do a modified hammerhead. Some even lose more alt trying to recover than if they had just used their radial G to nose over at the top.
I'm not suggesting that endless looping is a viable tactic, I'd rather see someone do a lag displaced roll to reacquire the angles and range instead of overshooting or 'looping'.
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:aok Great write-up Ren! :aok
I have read, watched and tried the very thing you explained. Took me a little time (slow learner), but it definately makes a huge difference in the outcome of a vert and hort "looping" fights. I personally hate looping fights, though I find myself in one 4 out of 5 times. Poor ACM on my part. :salute
A8Chewey
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Basically its all about fooling your opponent into underestimating the amount of energy your have, make gentle turns and they wont think you have the angle, and all of a sudden you pull hard on the nose and BAM 20mm in yo face.
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Winning a vertical fight is all about one thing (if planes and pilots are relativly equal).... merges..
Honestly the fight is won or lost in the merge.
The pilot who wins the battle for vertical separation is gonna get the gun solution.
To understand vertical separation do the following.
Take two rings and lay them over each other. These two rings represent the "loops" of the two pilots. If they are above each other you see that they will mirror each others flight path. This means that you merge HO and you will meet at the top HO.
Now move one ring "down" and you will see that the one ring that starts his/her loop lower is gonna "intercept" the other pilots flight path. First merge you are under your target which means he cant HO you. Just before second merge at top of the "loop" you are gonna have him in your sights.
In practice it aint this easy because a good pilot is gonna fight you for the vertical separation so you are gonna get just a little bit of separation but its still valueable.
Key thing is that you should not be making loops but rather chained immelmans. At the top of the "loop" you roll over and treat the situation as a new merge. If you won vertical separation in merge 1 you have a big advantage in merge 2. For each merge you are gonna get more vertical separation until finally you get your gun solution.
Ofcourse you will not be able to make that many immelmans in a row before your out of E.
If you win vertical separation and your opponent knows the value of it he will fight you for it in merge 2 (top of first "loop"). If he fights for vertical separation there he will bleed alot of E as he will have to force his plane.
So by winning your first merge your either gonna get gun solution or your enemy will have to bleed E. If he bleeds E chances are quite high that he will end up hanging in his vertical manouvers. If he runs out of E you will get a very easy gun solution on him.
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Winning a vertical fight is all about one thing (if planes and pilots are relativly equal).... merges..
Honestly the fight is won or lost in the merge.
The pilot who wins the battle for vertical separation is gonna get the gun solution.
SO........................
What yer saying is when I let the guy get 600 yds off my 6 then reverse on him I'm gonna lose in the vertical because I merged with him even though he began on my 6? What did I just say anyway? I personally don't care where the guy is... if he comes for me I attack every time. Boelcke said turn to face yer opponent...or sumtin like dat... :D he never said what distance....
To put it another way...and I hope this answers lots of other questions from someof our newer folks....If you don't turn to fight and flop around like a fish out of water then you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the tower. If you turn and fight you just decreased those odds by 50%. If you learn from it then you've just decreased those odds by another 25%. Which would you rather do... flop around and die alot of attack the dude and live 75% or more of the time?
The hardest thing to do is understand that just cause the guy is on yer 6 only means it might take another 40 seconds to kill him....
Most new folks ask the question "I'm always going defensive when a guy gets on my 6, how do I get him off it". The answer is quite simple, quit flopping and attack him. The execution might take a lil training :) Drop by the TA...that's why the trainers are there.
Hope this helps
Ren
Aces High Training Corps
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Disagree with that comment on the basis not all aircraft do well when they become slow enough to actually do a modified hammerhead. Some even lose more alt trying to recover than if they had just used their radial G to nose over at the top.
I'm not suggesting that endless looping is a viable tactic, I'd rather see someone do a lag displaced roll to reacquire the angles and range instead of overshooting or 'looping'.
Could someone please me/explain what a 'lag displaced roll' is?
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Could someone please me/explain what a 'lag displaced roll' is?
There are a couple of good films posted demonstrating displacement rolls here http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,260965.0.html