Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: 1K3 on August 17, 2005, 04:54:42 PM
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Instead of killing "yourself" when you accidentally or deliberately shot friendly aircraft...
how about this...
when friendly aircraft is at your crosshair of teh gunsight and you try to shoot it down, make the aircraft guns not fire at friendly planes once they're in the crosshairs.
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That would encourage shoulder shooting and tilt the advantage more towards the attacker and away from the defender. In other words it would distort the air combat balance.
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I think Birdo should get to add some ideas to the killshooter!
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roflmao.....dont forget to finish him off next time Birdo!!!!!!:rofl :rofl
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in a word, nope!
Killshooter is a deterant period. It works.
Changing it in any way will change gameplay, and not for the better.
If your getting killshootered more than once a tour your doing something wrong. Maybe best rethink your strategy?
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Would be better to invoke a 10 second ( or Significant period ) gun jam. It would put the perpetrator out of the fight.
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Something that could work is AW's old 'persona non grata' system with some addons.
The way that worked, if you shot down two or three friendlies, you got no ammo or ord for a few hours.
Add to that, for AH2, if you damage a friendly you take the same hit to perks as if you had crashed/bailed/ditched.
Shoot a friendly down, and you get no perks that sortie, no score, and your name does not show up in lights.
Figure that might be enough of a deterant for the score-mongers and dweebs alike.
Now, KS as is works pretty good. I'm just tossing in an idea.
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The thing everyone keeps trying to ignore, is that none of the options suggested take 1 of the attackers out of the fight. With the current system, the defender can easily see/hear when 1 attacker has died to careless shooting/poor SA. With the PNG/gunjam/rubber bullet/zeroed out ammo ideas, the defender still thinks he's in a 2 on 1, as he has no way of knowing if the guy behind him shot a friendly hard enough to become ineffective. Add to that uncertainty that if the attackers are flying the same planetype, there's almost no way to tell who's who.
Killshooter's fine, and there's no better solution at present.
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Posteds it once, I guess I'll do it again.
HiTech on the subject of Kill shooter. Granted the fuse damage model has change but the rest is still relavent.
Posted by HiTech 02-25-2002:
The problem comes in how to apply the damage when you are shooting at different plane type , i.e. you could be shooting eng 4 on a plane with 1 eng.
To over come this all damage from kill shooter is applied to the center fuse.
It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you.
It's realy simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire. No if's, no ands, no buts.
For those complaning about some one flying infront of them.
Read this again.
It is the shooter responsibliyt to make sure he is clear to fire.
One more time.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
And in case you are not clear on my views on the subject.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Think of it as an instant court marshal and a sentance of a firing squad.
HiTech
Again in the same thread replying to Tac
Unfortunataly responsibity ends when the tracers are flying. People fly into the bullet stream.
So you wan't the kill so bad,want points so bad, that you are willing to risk killingl a friendly.
Read again.
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
If some one is diving in you are NOT clear to fire.
Thats a bit off i'd say. Sure, they may dive into a con and not see you behind him, but they sure as heck can see the tracers you're firing his way.
Again .
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Point is, some people just dont give a damn and fly in there regardless.
Again.
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Accidents happen as well, **** happens. But penalizing the person that didnt cause the accident by having 1 or 2 killshooter pings whacking him off the sky doesnt sound right.
This would be like blaming a guy for hiting your car after you just ran a red light, because "well he saw me".
Again.
You want the kill so bad,want points so bad, that you are willing to risk killing a friendly.
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
All I'd like to see is a few more leniency towards hits received before causing damage, give the victims a chance to stop firing before killshooting themselves (target fixation, press trigger, BIG green icon plane jumps in front split second surprise, trigger still pressed, *plinkplink* *BOOM* you go).
Again.
You want the kill so bad,want points so bad, that you are willing to risk killing a friendly.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Tac everything you are aguing is you wanting the kill no different then the guy diving in wants the kill.
Only thing is the other guy is in a better position for the kill than you are. What you are acusing other people of, you are more guilty of yourself.
The rule is simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
HiTech
And
Posted by HiTech 3-19-2005
And before this thread gets going. Don't sugest somthing that has all ready been suggested because unless a new idea comes up ,(which is doubtfull) kill shooter will not be changing.
HiTech
And finally I guess you could call this the definative statement that could cover every suggestion made regarding kill shooter.
Originally posted by hitech
Yep brand new Idea, Only considered this option over 12 years ago. And it has only been suggest a couple of dozen times after that. The idea sucked then and still does now.
HiTech
So you see, as long as you adhear to HiTech's one simple rule you will never have a problem with Kill Shooter.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Just in case you have not grasped it yet I will repeat it for you.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
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Originally posted by Tilt
Would be better to invoke a 10 second ( or Significant period ) gun jam. It would put the perpetrator out of the fight.
That does not take him out of the fight. How do you know that the Spitfire behind you can't fire his guns? You don't, so you react defensively? Obviously you react, and he just forced you to waste valuable E making it easier for another guy to kill you. In otherwords he affected the fight he was "out of".
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Slight correction regarding the earlier quote of damage assignment. Damage is now applied to the area on your plane that corresponds to where your bullets landed on the friendly plane.
I had thought damage was still assigned by the old method, but HT pointed out that it had changed in one of the other "get rid of KS so I can spray wildly" threads.
Also, in case you missed it,
It is the shooter's responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
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There is an alternative to the Killshooter. Like Tails pointed out, AW's Persona Non Grata system worked very well. If you killed two friendlies within a 24 hour period you were unable to up any plane with any type of ordinance for 24 hours. An additional 24 hour penalty was tacked on for additional kills beyond the 2nd. You were still able to take off in any plane you wanted but you just couldn't carry any ammo or ordnance.
But this is only a deterent to those that intend to grief other players and it worked very well. Not many found the fun in shooting down friendlies in AW if it meant you were basically forced to become a Gooney driver afterwards.
And on the other hand, killshooter does work how it's intended and HiTech unfortunately has ruled any possibility of the PNG system as he didn't like the system. Wish though he would rethink his position.
ack-ack
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kill shooter is good, 24h ban can piss of many, current clear rule is best
10 s weapon jam will teach you nothing
only no skill player can ask for something like that
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hell what good would that do? Half the kills I get the targt isnt in my gunsight
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Slight correction regarding the earlier quote of damage assignment. Damage is now applied to the area on your plane that corresponds to where your bullets landed on the friendly plane.
I did mention that is has changed now. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
Thanks for elaborating on it hubs.
Oh yeah, just in case some of you still don't get it.
It is the shooters responsibility to make sure it is clear to shoot!
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i think you should hit the people where it hurts... THEIR RANK!
for each round landed on a friendly, you lose 5 places in rank.
each bomb, 100 places
each rocket, 50 places
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
I did mention that is has changed now. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
It is the shooters responsibility to make sure it is clear to shoot!
I read it, but didn't catch the meaning right away. Noted.
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Originally posted by Furball
i think you should hit the people where it hurts... THEIR RANK!
for each round landed on a friendly, you lose 5 places in rank.
each bomb, 100 places
each rocket, 50 places
bombs and rockets dont kill friendlys. I dont like the whole "killshooter" thing a few weeks ago I was in an IL2 and was shooting a panzer and took his turret out. Then some guy comes along in a spit9 let me say this again a fricking spit9 and starts strafing the panzer. What is a spit9 with 20mms and 50cals going to do to a tank? So I go back trying to kill the panzer cuz im not going to disable a tank and let some tard come and get the kill jsut cuz he put a few bullets in him. While going in for a run the guy comes in and gets in my gunsite and I stop firing but a few rounds hit him and I lose engine oil and rudder. And Iv heard someone say "well you need to work on your SA." why should I have to watch someone else while Im flying thats like someone whineing about not getting a ch6. I think that if you shoot a friendly the bullets dont even hit the guy they just pass right through him like hes not even there. Why should I pay caz some guy flew infront of me while Im shooting.
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There is an alternative to the Killshooter. Like Tails pointed out, AW's Persona Non Grata system worked very well. If you killed two friendlies within a 24 hour period you were unable to up any plane with any type of ordinance for 24 hours. An additional 24 hour penalty was tacked on for additional kills beyond the 2nd. You were still able to take off in any plane you wanted but you just couldn't carry any ammo or ordnance.
But this is only a deterent to those that intend to grief other players and it worked very well. Not many found the fun in shooting down friendlies in AW if it meant you were basically forced to become a Gooney driver afterwards.
And on the other hand, killshooter does work how it's intended and HiTech unfortunately has ruled any possibility of the PNG system as he didn't like the system. Wish though he would rethink his position.
It could work.
However, it does not address the possibility that a genuine mistake can happen twice, within a period of 24 hours. Imagine this scenario;
There are 3~4 friendlies chasing after one enemy plane. I try to keep my cool, watch my shooting. I think it's safe to open fire.. but at that moment, a friendly jumps in the way. I'm in a cannon-armed plane, and my burst damages a friendly plane critically.
Now, in this kind of situation, the kill shooter will remove myself from the fight. It is a frustrating experience, but since techincally I did make the mistake, despite the reckless behavior of the friendly pilot who jumped in front of me, I swallow my anger and just up another plane. Perhaps, I'll have a talk with the guy who jumped in front of me.
- Hey, I just got KS'd from you.
- Did I cause that? Gee, sorry.
- That's okay. Technically I did shoot you.
Let's both try to be more careful next time.
- Okay. Sorry, man.
- No problem.
But sometimes, bad luck will make the worst happen. I may get KS'd twice in the same day.
Now, according to the persona non grata, the mistakes I made twice, unintentional and accidental, will take away my ability to fly and fight for 24 hours.
Frankly, I think the KS better addresses all types of situations concerning friendly fire incidents. Mistakes are immediately reprimanded by taking the guy who shot at a friendly out of the fight, but in case of unintentional and truly accidental happenings, the penalty is not so severe as to totally take away my game for 24 hours.
Persona non grata seems like a very powerful system, and even more so strict than the KS. But sometimes, that can be an overkill to truly unintentional accidents. No doubt it'll make people think twice, thrice, and even four times before shooting around frdly planes... but still mistakes and accidents do happen.
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Unlike in real life, yes a freindly can pop up in front of you and catch your last few rounds. Die, and there are no witnesses except for maybe that tank driver who is thanking you for removing half of his problem. Then you can fly away, survive the war, and no one during your whole life will ever know.
It seems to me HiTech in this one place has made the decision that if you delt it wrong, you pay for it now. I have only killshootered once in this game. That was enough for me. I also apologiesed to the player I shot. Didn't matter to me he suddenly poped up into my bullet stream. I knew he was there.
I guess my real life interest in firearms and shooting has clouded my judgement and I forget this is just a game.
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Originally posted by TrueKill
bombs and rockets dont kill friendlys. I dont like the whole "killshooter" thing a few weeks ago I was in an IL2 and was shooting a panzer and took his turret out. Then some guy comes along in a spit9 let me say this again a fricking spit9 and starts strafing the panzer. What is a spit9 with 20mms and 50cals going to do to a tank? So I go back trying to kill the panzer cuz im not going to disable a tank and let some tard come and get the kill jsut cuz he put a few bullets in him. While going in for a run the guy comes in and gets in my gunsite and I stop firing but a few rounds hit him and I lose engine oil and rudder. And Iv heard someone say "well you need to work on your SA." why should I have to watch someone else while Im flying thats like someone whineing about not getting a ch6. I think that if you shoot a friendly the bullets dont even hit the guy they just pass right through him like hes not even there. Why should I pay caz some guy flew infront of me while Im shooting.
(in my best Fred Rogers voice)
Now children, remember, It is the shooter responsibility to make sure it is clear to fire
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It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you.
Thats not always true. I recall a time when I got kill shootered by someone who dove into my fight after watching the fight for about a minute. He knew I was there, and timed his dive perfectly. I was in a Hurri 2C and when that tard dove into my tracers I had no chance of survival.
It's realy simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire. No if's, no ands, no buts.
I disagree with that, it's EVERYONE's responsibility to make sure that 1) they are clear to fire, 2) that they arent flying in front of someone else's line of fire.
HiTech *invented* Kill shooter, it isnt going away ever since it is *his baby*. I personally believe AirWarriors system of bullets not damaging friendlies is the best option out there. Game designer has stated he likes his system and it isnt going to change.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
(in my best Fred Rogers voice)
Now children, remember, It is the shooter responsibility to make sure it is clear to fire
No its not its the other guys responsibility to watch where hes flying. Its not like I made the guy fly into my bullets. If someone has to get damage why not both planes.
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Hi all. Killshooter sure can be a pain sometimes. I agree that it is very difficult not to kill oneself when there are 3 friendlies flying within 10 feet of you shooting at same plane. If I'm not in front of the pack, I don't fire. Learned my lesson on that a long time ago. What really sucks about kill shooter though is not that situation just described. The real pain is when an enemy is right on your friendly's 6 and you go to shoot the enemy plane to clear your friend. Some of them bullets end up passing the enemy and hit friendly, then I go down. That really sucks. Here I am doing my best to clear a friend and I die from my own bullets lol.
Or another one is... you are on an enemy 6, and a friendly is coming in to HO the enemy. If we are in a turn, you most likely don't see the friendly coming in to do a HO... we both fire, and one of us(if not both) hit each other and the enemy. Before you know it... we all 3 are down in a matter of seconds. I hate that situation! lol.
Another situation that really bites is when you go to protect bombers. You shoot at the enemy and a few of those bullets go astray. The bullets end up hittin one of the three big buffs up ahead and you fall to pieces. Yeah, I really do not like the kill shooter thing, but I will still fly and just try to be as careful as I can when shooting. Takes major concentration sometimes hehe.
I wouldn't mind there being a system where friendly fire does nothing or maybe just a small fraction of the damage that it has right now. Whatever the decision.... I will still fly and kill ;). -DropW
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This theme will never die...
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Originally posted by TrueKill
No its not its the other guys responsibility to watch where hes flying. Its not like I made the guy fly into my bullets. If someone has to get damage why not both planes.
Because the other guy did not fire, you did. If kill shooter is a consistant problem for someone then they are obviously doing something wrong! They are firing when it is not clear.
Does it happen to all of us? Sure does.
Example: I got kill shot last nite. Chasing an F4U, He dove, I was on his 6, Just as I open fire a friendly pulls up below him for a forward quarter shot (not a HO because the f4u did not have a guns solution on him), His shots went below the f4u, mine went above but right into the friendlies canopy, BAM i'm dead. Now who's fault is it? Actually we were both wrong, because it was not clear to fire for either of us. He missed me and I hit him. That's just the way it is.
This is a dead discussion anyways because it ain't gonna change. Knowing that then:
It's the shooter responsibility to make sure it's clear to fire!
Do we need Bart Simpson and his black board?
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I've been on both sides of KS, and I will intentionally try to fly into the tracers of anyone firing at a con from behind me (yeah, I know what I am, save your breath). I have also been KS in all of the situations described above. It would never ever have happened no matter what, under any circumstances, if I hadn't pulled the trigger. It doesn't matter who misses, moves, merges, warps, dives in, etc, if no one pulls the trigger. This leads me to one single conclusion.
It's the shooter responsibility to make sure it's clear to fire!
Clif, you enjoying this as much as I am?
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Actually we were both wrong, because it was not clear to fire for either of us. He missed me and I hit him. That's just the way it is.
Then if both were wrong why not both get damage? Cuz the other guy flew into your bullets after you shot? It doesnt seem right to me.
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Leave kill shooter alone.
Try less spray & praying and gun dicipline instead and you will have more ammo to kill even more badguy planes and will get killshot less
I get people that fly in front of me when Im shooting all the time and manage to rarely get a killshooter. And in fact I've never ever, not even once gotten a killshooter from someone diving in front of me.
Why? because I usually fire in short bursts and can see the other plane entering my screen and have enough sense to not pull the trigger on the next shot.
Also I have my sound settings set so that while I can hear my engine just fine I can also hear the engines of other planes next to me. After all. they usually have to be next to me before they can suddenly pop up right in front of me. And anything I cant hear is far enough away from me that I can see it in advance of it popping up..or down..or from the sides in front of me.
the only time Ive gotten killshooter s when I've been on the 6 of a plane who was on the 6 of a bomber formation and I hit the bombers. Also once I got a killshooter when I was on the 6 of a plane and a friendly was comming from the opposite direction and tried to HO the plane I was in on and shooting at.
In each case.. oh well watermelon happens. But certainly not often enough to whine about.
Keys to not getting killshot.
1
Fire in short bursts ratatattat
and not ratatatatatatatatatatatatatat atatatatatatatat
For gods sake know when to stop shooting. Dont just hold down the trigger on the off chance one of those hundreds of rounds might ping him.
You can accomplish the same thing with short bursts and have alot more ammo to show for it left over when your done
2
SA know whats around you both enemy and friendly and you will have less unpleasent surprises
Good SA INCLUDES Knowing not just where the enemy is. but friendly as well
3
Be patient with your shots. Just because he's in front of you doesnt mean you have a shot
And Hubs. I bet I can get a kill over yor shoulder without hitting you no matter how hard you try to get hit.
Dont play with your food and I wont steal your kill
:D
Note. I usually dont try to steal kills by over the shoulder shooting unless the other guy cant seem to get a firing solution.
I typically try to let the guy in front get the shot first. But I see if him screwing it up too much and I have a shot I'll take it.
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Actually I think KS is pretty good and probably the best of those tried to date.............
back to gun jamming tho I think I would like a nice big bubble round my AC and if any friendly tries to fire thru it I would like his guns jammed...........no time limitation.......... totally jammed he has to RTB to get em fixed
Yup I would like that and I would like it ontop of KS as well...........
So if his bullets hit me he gets damaged and gunless..........
should cut back daisy chains and shoulder shooting a bit more:p
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Originally posted by Tilt
back to gun jamming tho I think I would like a nice big bubble round my AC and if any friendly tries to fire thru it I would like his guns jammed...........no time limitation.......... totally jammed he has to RTB to get em fixed
Yup I would like that and I would like it ontop of KS as well...........
So if his bullets hit me he gets damaged and gunless..........
should cut back daisy chains and shoulder shooting a bit more:p
Naaa. cause that guy that a few minutess ago that was shooting over your shoulder might be the same guy that is saving your arse now
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Naaa. cause that guy that a few minutess ago that was shooting over your shoulder might be the same guy that is saving your arse now
mights, maybes and if onlys...........
Gun jam the shoulder shooter!!!!.......... (jeez in RL he would have been court marshalled)..............:p
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
And Hubs. I bet I can get a kill over yor shoulder without hitting you no matter how hard you try to get hit.
Dont play with your food and I wont steal your kill
:D
You people who fire short bursts are no fun at all.
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I guess theres some history behind this killshooter thing.
As far as guns jamming when friendly is in your sight.
Would that be the true deflection angle of the proposed shot?? or guns jamming on a dead 6 in relation freindly plane to reticle center??
Its definatly a can of worms. Just sounds exploitable.
As far as house arrest or probation for kill shooter. I am still on a learning curve here, If I had any privelages takin in my first 2 weeks I would have went back to CounterStrike!
I think it works great the way it is!
Nothing is broke!
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Killshooter is one of the worst features of the game, should be replaced with anything else, personally non-damage to friendlies would be better.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Killshooter is one of the worst features of the game, should be replaced with anything else, personally non-damage to friendlies would be better.
Ironically, this is also one of the worst trolls ever.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Ironically, this is also one of the worst trolls ever.
Was thinking the same thing.
Either he's really really new.
Or and old and grizzled vet busting chops