Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on October 17, 2000, 10:10:00 AM
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art department is itching to build this plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
HT, Pyro throw em a bone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Citabria:
art department is itching to build this plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
HT, Pyro throw em a bone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
NOTE: (4) 20mm Hispanos (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sure would be a nice historical fighter-bomber for the upcoming Afrika Korps scenario. Currently we are having to use the Typhoon which is fun but not a plane that was used in that theater.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
NOTE: (4) 20mm Hispanos (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
IIRC they used only AP ammunition in Hurricane's hispanos (HE ammo wasn't available so early in the war).
So please for one time MODEL A REALISTIC AMMO for the Hispanos.
Thanks.
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Does anyone have any info about aerial victories get by 4 cannons armed Hurricanes?
AFAIK (some old books) they were used mainly on A/G duties and very difficult to master during dogfights.
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GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
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Not all of them had Hispanos - I don't know how many, but some had Oerlikon 20mm guns.
You would want a IID with the 2x40mm too, and 8x60lb rockets for the IIC also.
From what I recall, the "Hurribombers" were withdrawn from service because they were getting murdered by enemy fighter cover.
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Originally posted by juzz:
From what I recall, the "Hurribombers" were withdrawn from service because they were getting murdered by enemy fighter cover.
Here they'd prolly have a K/D ratio near of that of the Chog.
Guess why and with wich set of tactics.
Realistic, huh?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
Here they'd prolly have a K/D ratio near of that of the Chog.
Guess why and with wich set of tactics.
Realistic, huh?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
Relax RAM - hurri 2 is even slower then C202. You would have to be a moron to get shut down by one...
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Relax RAM - hurri 2 is even slower then C202. You would have to be a moron to get shut down by one...
C202 has four machineguns, and is worthless to the mighty uberdweeb HO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
HurriIIc will be used as follows:
Turn-HO-Turn-HO-Turn-HO. Shoot the fleeing enemy, get 1K kill.
Ok, maybe is a bit exagerated, but for sure that the endless HO will be in the script.
Bring a 8x.303 Hurri II and believe me, I wont say a $h1t
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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And I have to add, that if Hurri IIc's guns are going to be like the ones in Chog (I.E. one flash, sure damage, two flashes, sure kill), then I have to say that I'd rather want to have a SpitfireXIV.
It would be a monster and it would be everywhere in the arena. But maybe we'd see some ACM and die fighting REAL fights against that plane instead of dying due the endless HOing that HurriIIc's will bring with them.
Go and figure how much concerned I am with Hispanolazers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Er, RAM, any HO dweeb would be using a Niki, F4U-1C or Typhoon rather than a Hurri IIC in the MA, methinks. And if you want to HO a Hurri IIC in a scenario, go right ahead. I won't stop you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've found 90% of the time that people going for the HO can be used to your advantage anyway, since their hurried attempts at a deflection shot if you just fly a few degrees away from a HO will bleed away their energy fast. Mind you, that tactic was based on 1.03 FM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Niki has worse guns than Hurricane, and hurri should turn better than Typhoons and F4U1-C (note the "should" you know why is there don't you? hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) So Hurricane will be used better for HO than Nikis, tiffies or Chogs.
About the HO think, the problem is not that I die in them (although I sometimes do, yah know, if he lands a couple of hits you're done), the problem is the mortally boring that it is to see everyone doing just the same thing...
as I said I'd rather take a SpitXIV than a hurriIIc. With the Spit people will try to fly and do some ACM apart of the HO.
WIth the Hurri, evidently, no. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Well, hell has indeed frozen over. I have just seen the most ludicrous argument- the Hurricane (any mark) will be uber, better even than a Spit XIV.
Exaggeration has reached new heights, to say the least.
With no climb or speed you'd have to let the Hurri HO you. Further, its small ammo loadout will prevent it from spraying with impunity.
Yes it turns well. That's about it.
Gee whiz, if anyone can see a conspiracy in adding a Hurri II, well, there is no rationalization left...
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Well RAM - if you really think that's the way to fight Hurris - you need to go back to some very basics of energy fighting.
Any selfrespecting LW pilot should have no problems dealing with Hurris with any plane in this planeset.
Also, hurri climbs at something in the range of 2000ft/m - you do the math.
And sure.. i'll take spit 14 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Hey, hey hey hey!!! I Didnt say that it was uber or not uber! and I am sure that I would kill four times more a hurriII than a SpitXIV.
But I simply don't like to see all day long HO's, and the only asset of the hurri would be that, to be the HO machine in excellence. It won't have speed, climbrate or acceleration. But it can point its damned lazers everywhere with few problems (As the hurri is a good stallfighter).
Sheesh I hate to fight Zeroes because they HO all day long, go and imagine what would happen if those Zeroes were fitted with 4 Hispanos!
Its not uber (well its guns are, the plane not). I know to fight them. But I hate to see HOs. So, I hate what the HurriIIc can mean for AH. I'd rather die fighting a good fight against a Spitfire XIV than win a fight because the guy in front of me knows to do nothing but HO all day long.
I hope that now I am better understood.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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No, frankly RAM I don't understand you at all. Are you saying that any new plane modelled should either have weak guns or turn like an oil tanker, so nobody can HO in it?
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If I was the one making the game? sure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
now seriously: it is a PERSONAL point of view. Nothing else. That it will do the HO still more common in MA, and I dont like that.
But I am noone to say "model it" or "don't model it". I say that I'd rather want to see a SpitXIV because it would enforce more the use of ACM than the use of HOs. If HTC chooses to model the Hurricane IIc I will keep on flying just like I am doing it now with the Nikis and Chogs.
Anyway, I can tell you, I start to understand why a rolling planeset is better in some regards than what we have now. But I know we won't get it so I will stop the comment here.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Give us the 10 * 303 version.
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That's OK RAM, you have your opinion and I have mine. I just really wish we could have a North Africa scenario with the Hurricane IID in No 6 squadron camo. Sigh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I am Hawker boy, hear me bore...
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Well, first of all ram... Whine whine, whiney whine whine, whine whine whine. I'll even throw in a couple squeak, squeak, squeak for ya. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Zekes coming at you for an HO? Why's this a bad thing? Point your nose, fire a cannon round or two, and bring out the marshmallows! mmmm...smores!
SOB
NikiDweeb
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LOL SOB!
I said I hate HOs, not that I lose them when I accept them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW you like my new sig? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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RAM... Whine whine, whiney whine whine, whine whine whine. I'll even throw in a couple squeak, squeak, squeak for ya.
SOB
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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I have an idea.
Lets all ask HTC to satisfy RAM by redoing the plane-set. This will stop all of the dweeb HOs.
The P-51D could be redone as the P-40B.
Lets see, the P-47D-25 could become a P-26 and the P-47D-30 a Brewster Buffalo.
Turn the P-38L into a Westland Whirlwind..., no, wait, that can do 360mph (almost as fast as a Bf109F-4, heaven forbid that) and has 4 20mm Hispano cannon, sure its only got 60rpg but even so it'd still just be an HO and Spray 'n Pray dweebplane. P-38L will have to be a Bristol Blenheim MkI.
F4U-1C should become an F4F and the F4U-1D can be a Devastator.
The B-17G will need to become a B-17C and I guess the B-26 can be a B-16.
The Spitfire MkIX should reduce to a Spitfire MkIIa nicely, which means that the Spitfire MkVb can settle as a Spitfire MkIa.
The Typhoon MkIb will do well as a Hurricane MkI, don't you think RAM?
The Lancaster MkIII would have to become a Wellington MkI. Seems fair.
The Yak-9U would make an OK MiG-3.
The La-5FN looks a little like an I-16, at least they're both radials. So I-16 it is.
I guess the C.205 can be remade as a C.200 and the C.202 as a Fiat Biplane fighter.
The N1K2 would serve as a A6M2 I think, sorry RAM, its still got cannon.
The A6M5b is much too good and needs to be changed to a A5M.
So our plane-set would be as follows:
American
P-40B
P-26
Brewster Buffalo (Finnish colors)
F4F
Devastator
B-17C
B-16
German
Bf109F-4
Bf109G-2 (Finnish colors)
Bf109G-6
Bf109G-10
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Ju88A-4
British
Blenheim MkI
Spitfire MkIa
Spitfire MkIIa
Hurricane MkI
Wellington MkI
Russian
MiG-3
I-16
Japanese
A5M
A6M2
Italian
C.200
Fiat Biplane Fighter (The one that fought in the Battle of Britain, I don't know the model number)
Well RAM, what do you think? Pretty balanced now. Allies and non-German Axis will now have aircraft that are comparable to what the Germans have. Nobody'll HO you now (well, maybe those A6M2s). Of course, now all the dweebs will fly German kites and those who remain loyal to their prefered nationality will be turn dweebs, not to mention nearly as rare as hen's teeth.
_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ ___
END SARCASM
RAM, we're sick of hearing about how the Luftwaffe is SO undermodeled and how everybody is out to get the poor Germans.
RAM, did it ever occur to you that a slow plane, like a Zero, has no choice but to HO if they want to ever get a shot on a fast BnZer? You expect those Zero pilots to just let you kill them without ever try to get a shot at you? Why don't you use your Fw and get in a turn fight with the Zero? Because it'll kick your bellybutton if you do. I don't see Zero pilots complaining that people just BnZ them all the time, do you?
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Well you have either of this problems:
1)you are blind
2)you don't know to read.
There are more but I will keep`the respect towards you that you dont have towards me, and I'll shut up.
Learn to read and go and take a look to my post again. i said that I PREFERED SPITFIRE 14,XIV, your damned beloved uberplane, before the Hurricane IIc.
If you think that it is me wanting to derate allied planes, then its your problem. Go and learn how to read and then forget about me.
BTW I know the Zero has no other choice than to HO a Fw190. I know that a Hurricane wont have any more chances. THAT IS THE FRIGGIN REASON BECAUSE I DONT WANT IT!.
I say, get your uberspitfire and ride it. Maybe that way we will see some ACM instead of HOs. If you find that offensive, then, respecting to me, you can get lost.
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For everyone else:
Sorry the harsh tone, but allways that I state something here everyone thinks that I want every allied plane banned.
Again if the HurriIIc comes I will keep on flying here in AH. Simply happens that I dont like what that plane has to offer in the current MA. That was the reason for my comment about the RPS.
You want a plane wich only's valid tactic is to HO and turn?.
Me not.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Well they made the Hurricane IIC throughout WWII up until 1945 I believe (the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Hurricane IIC was the last one ever built). This would mean that it would have had HE rounds as well as AP.
As for the Africa/Med use, it was mostly used between 1941 and 1943 as most squadrons were replaced by Spitfire's VB, IX and XIII. Many squadrons still operated them well into late 1944.
I just love the Hurricane, by far my favourite WWII aircraft and I would love to see the IIA, IIB, IIC versions in one colour scheme and the IID in desert scheme with Volks dust filter. Bring them ALL on!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
'Nexx'
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For what its worth RAM, I don't want the Spitfire MkXIV. Its too powerful. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I don't want to see an arena of Spitfires. At least with the Hurri IIc it'd be rare. There would be no real reason to take it over an F4U-1C or Typhoon Ib. Spitfire F.MkXIV offers alot over a Spitfire MkIX.
Sorry about the harsh tone above, but I am tired of the complaints. If you were balanced in you're complaints we might take them more seriously, but you never complain about German aircraft being used wrong or being too powerful, just non-German. You come across as very biased in favor of all German aircraft and against all others.
I knew I was exagerating. I was venting frustration.
My apologies.
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Give RAM his Dora and he will forget all this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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funked why not tell us how good hispanos are and how bad LW 20mm are again...quoting from your impeccible sources?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
my veiw is if hurricaine was there let it be there in AH.If LW and italians fought them in euro theatre id like to see them.iu want to see every plane in here eventually and i wanted LW bomber and i got one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) if citabria wants a hurricaine let him get one..we all pay the same right?
hazed JG2
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Actually Karnak, I'd love to see all those planes modeled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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Gimme an F16 and I'd still lose.
What's the quote I'm thinking of here guys... .... oh yeah "it's the pilot not the plane!"
<runs away laughing>
-SW
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WTF are you talking about Hazed?
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Originally posted by funked:
Give RAM his Dora and he will forget all this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Do you really believe that? Some folks just enjoy a good crisis.
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"BTW I know the Zero has no other choice than to HO a Fw190..."
I didn't want to be accused like others of misunderstanding you RAM so I quoted you above.
I think people are having trouble understanding your logic as to what type of plane should use the HO. The above quote makes no sense at all. A Zero can outturn a Fw190 easily and it cannot take damage, yet you recommend it should HO a Fw190??? If anybody wants the HO, it's the Fw190 not the Zero. Same thing for the Hurri...it will easily outturn the Fw190. Why would you go for the HO if you have the better turning aircraft???
yowser
[This message has been edited by yowser (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Ammo the Dora would keep him busy for at least 12 hours.
The pre-emptive whining about the Hurricane IIc nearly gave me a hernia from laughing. It has a very short ammo clip and the only slower plane is the C-47. It might have some use as a defensive fighter, but only for pilots with good aim. It's lack of speed, lack of climb rate, and massive drag when turning would prevent it from being a popular fighter. Its primary role would be its historical role - fighter bomber. And it would be perfect for the upcoming Afrika Korps scenario.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Yowser-
That's pretty much the way I see it. The BnZ will only have the front-quarter opportunities for the most part, while the TnB gets some pings in ya on the egress from the pass.
If I was in a Zero facing cannons I would never go for the HO if I planned to live. I would break and reverse quickly enough to get some shots on your tail. With any luck you would lose a 'ron or elevator, and that would force you to run or die.
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Yowser and Kierin,
There is no plane in AH that can reverse fast enough to get pings on a fast BnZ aircraft. If the guy attacks without enough speed, fine, reverse and kill him, but I was giving RAM enough credit not to do that. If RAM is as good as I was crediring him, he'd be long out of range by the time the Zero had his nose pointing at him.
I have been in this situation against a P-51D. He couldn't hurt me and I couldn't hurt him. I would simply avoid his passes and he'd be out of range by the time I could get my nose around. It took a Yak joining the fight on his side to end the fight. Almost got that damn Yak though.
Sisu
-Karnak
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90% guys in MA will wait for your bounce and pull up at the same time than you dive, so giving a HO. AS I have the E I pull up and zoom to dive again. As I dive again the Zero repeats the maneouver. Etc Etc ETc ETc.
There will be a lot of people in MA wishing to go and accept a HO while diving on a lesser E Zero. I don't.
And nearly 90% lowspeed TnBning planes do this. and nearly 95% nikis do this ,making it a serious trouble for you in the meantime.(As they can zoom after you because they were so awesome planes that could avoid a bounce and zoom back with the bouncing plane,get it, kill it, and die laughing after such a BS move (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)).
And most Chogs given the chance would do this. And CannonHurries will do the same.
Its the nonstop HO, the endless Dweebish circle. You can't bounce a lower con because all he does is to come up and fire his cannons.
It stinks. But hey! I'm happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hakkuna Matata!
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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I said break and reverse... by that I mean I would break from level enough to evade, then immediately reverse to get the tail again. A lot of guys will try to pull the turn with you a few degrees, and that can bleed enough speed to make a reverse profitable. It can be done to most pilots, though if you know it is coming it can be evaded.
All you need do is get a ping or two in and most BnZ's wanna leave. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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RAM the idea is to get on the guy's 6. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ram, I don't want to be disrespectful, but I wonder why you don't try to rope the Zero?
You make them reach and reach and reach. Even a Zero will eventually run out of energy and be easy meat (assuming you have an energy advantage). You know you wait until their nose begins to drop down and you roll down and kill them. Hangtime, Westy, and a plethora of other pony pilots will wax you all night long using this technique. It seems extreme to say that pouncing a lower target will always wind up in an HO- I just don't see it that way.
I will say, however, if I am the low con I will drop my nose and wait for you to pounce. I will break upward, using your speed against you and gain a bit of E on you. Eventually (assuming you don't get a snapshot in) you will be more-or-less co-E and have to fight on more equal terms.
If at any time I see that an HO is in my best interest, I will certainly take it, dweeb move or not. If you dive on me from the front quarter and my guns are better than yours, I am shooting. I hit most of those passes, and in my mind that makes it a viable tactic under some circumstances.
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Originally posted by Kieren:
I will say, however, if I am the low con I will drop my nose and wait for you to pounce. I will break upward, using your speed against you and gain a bit of E on you. Eventually (assuming you don't get a snapshot in) you will be more-or-less co-E and have to fight on more equal terms.
If at any time I see that an HO is in my best interest, I will certainly take it, dweeb move or not. If you dive on me from the front quarter and my guns are better than yours, I am shooting. I hit most of those passes, and in my mind that makes it a viable tactic under some circumstances.
So, if I dive on you, you will point your nose upwards. and if I keep on diving you'd fire at me (HO).
Each time the Zero points it nose upwards it sends a message "if you dare to dive, you will face my cannons". I refuse the HO, and as soon as I level, the Zero will level too. As soon as I try the bounce again, the Zero will do just the same. its a non-exit thing, or I accept a HO (thing that I will never do), or I can't do anything.
Curious thing I NEVER Saw a C202 doing this tactic. Why?...I think is clear.
I don't say it is skillfull or not. It is the only chances that those planes have. For me the HO is an annoying situation that I dont like. So I dislike the possibility that exists of yet another plane with 4 hispanos that will be unbounceable if not caught by surprise.
And ,before you people start jumping on me saying "why do I care what you want or not?", I ask you please to read again my previous posts. I gave a personal opinion, nothing else. if HurriIIc comes I will have to ignore attacking yet another plane unless by surprise. It's okay with me. But I dont like it and I won't remain silent saying it. Its my opinion and is as respectable as anyone else's
Forgive me for I dont like a HO arena. ANd with slow, old planes with four lasers as weapons, the only chance they have to survive is to do the vertical HO thing.
So we will end seeing nonstop HOing people. Annoying, at least for me.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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It's possible you don't yet see what I mean, Ram.
You don't dive on the Zero, exactly. You make it reach for you.
When he climbs, you climb. When he rolls over, you come down again. He will be forced to keep turning to stay alive, while you have the ability to conserve E by going vertical on every pass. Eventually he will be wallowing, and yours. No amount of yanking on the stick will bring the nose around on you then.
At no time do you allow your nose to line up with his nose. There is no reason to allow it to happen, you are in control. He can't run, and if you are in your typical LW ride, he won't be able to climb away from you either. You will only have to graze him to end it, being a paper kite like it is.
I bounce every type of plane out there, and do not in any way find the hopeless HO situation you describe. A plane below me is in serious sh**, no matter what it/I is/am. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I say this as the mediocre, low-hour pilot I am. You have many more hours than me in the arena, and certainly can understand what I am saying.
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RAM if your a BnZ pilot who hasn't learned how to "fake" the pass, and make the enemy plane make its defensive climb/turn into you too soon, we need to spend some time in the TA together (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Fokker Dr1
Gimme that Uber HO plane!!
SKurj
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Hey all, just wanted to clear the air as it seems that some you think we're working on the Hurri IIC right now. We are not. Nate and I just said it was our favorite plane.
Now back to your regularly scheduled whine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/laugh.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/crying.gif) (http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/spin2.gif)
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John "SUPERFLY" Guytan - Art Director
HiTech Creations
"Touch my tooter, smoocher!" - Ween
-=HELLFIRE=- SQUAD