TFT Bavaria 1945 Event Write Up (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSbtk2SsqQ__YpCtK0AVcT5FEFI0egdLBrxgBEFXJtQFzyk_wM7lpt5UU4GaOo9V5iy7Ix32MRxIFR9/pub)
12 Hour Event Date - May 18, 2019
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Brooke on April 08, 2019, 07:26:16 PM
Folks, please note that a previous announcement put Bavaria 1945 on a different day.
I am told that was Mother's Day weekend, so Bavaria 1945 will happen on May 18th.
Bavaria 1945 ----> May 18th.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: BTPage on April 08, 2019, 07:59:07 PM
Well hell I was not going to be able to make it because of mother's day weekend.....now am will be able to make for a few sorties. Thank you for the date change Brooke! 👍 Looking forward to this event sir. :salute
Tactus
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: FBDragon on April 09, 2019, 07:50:23 PM
Okay, so when does registration open for it. I WANT MY A8!!! lol :devil :cheers: :salute
Title: Clarification on TFT Bavaria '45 rules needed
Post by: Arlo on April 12, 2019, 06:25:10 PM
There are no launch windows and fields are open at all times during this event.
vs.
Takeoffs happen on every hour mark (noon, 1 pm, 2 pm, etc.) and are shut down otherwise in between.
The two AR 234 “Scout” are restricted from attacking the USAAF bomber formations at anytime.
(If a bomber or bomber formation fires upon said scout I suppose they can return fire? How close are these Arado scouts allowed to get to the bombers? Can they do close fly-bys which may draw fire?)
For a Successful Drop, +3 points for a destroyed object. “Successful Drop” for bombers is achieved during a Mission to a Valid Target once a bomber pilot destroys at least one object in the assigned target area.
Note: Once you get enough for a Successful Drop in a Mission, you don’t get more points for killing more objects in the mission.
(Does this mean a player flying a formation of bombers can only earn 3 points per target no matter how many objects are destroyed - or - by mission you mean 3 points per sortie if one object is destroyed between a primary and secondary target? Is this in order to mitigate the potential for bombers to score too many points? Should players drop as few bombs as possible to leave destroy-able objects for other players?)
(Noticing that offline these bases are Axis, will they all be changes to Allied before the event? Will they and can they be changed as the event progresses?)
(Same goes for the Allied fighter launch fields.)
Title: Re: Clarification on TFT Bavaria '45 rules needed
Post by: swareiam on April 13, 2019, 11:23:13 AM
There are no launch windows and fields are open at all times during this event.
vs.
Takeoffs happen on every hour mark (noon, 1 pm, 2 pm, etc.) and are shut down otherwise in between.
Yes... we would prefer that every pilot be in uniform and flying in squad colors, but this is a open event with now a more open approach to allowing players to participate. The CM team will be looking to the COs and GLs to ensure that this runs as smoothly as possible. Most walk-ons that take a plane out and doddle in the combat area without coordinating with the mission, find themselves quickly pounced upon by marauding prowling fighters. That is the chief deterrent to flying alone.
Bomber maximum altitude is 25k and minimum altitude is 18k When descending for landing or when an aircraft is heavily damaged.
(What does this mean, exactly? Does it mean that bomber alts are 25k to 18k except for landing decent or damage that prevents maintaining altitude?) Yes...
The event map spawns bombers at 20k. Will this be adjusted to 24k (max) or 18k (min)? No... The bombers will need to climb to their maximum altitude if they desire to climb that high.
Fighters on either side are not allowed to strafe airfields. Not exactly... Axis fields are either placed in areas where there is enough ack from strats as a deterrent to attacking Axis aircraft in the target areas, or they are set many kilometers away to allow Axis aircraft to recover without being "Vulched". As for the Allies, the Axis aircraft cannot enter the shaded areas on the strategic map provided in the write up. They must attack and destroy Allied aircraft before reaching this point.
(What about attacking aircraft on final approach at, say, 5k?) See answer above...
The two AR 234 “Scout” are restricted from attacking the USAAF bomber formations at anytime.
(If a bomber or bomber formation fires upon said scout I suppose they can return fire? No... the rules clearly state that the AR 234s "are restricted from attacking the USAAF bomber formations at anytime."
How close are these Arado scouts allowed to get to the bombers? They can fly as close as they want. But they cannot fire upon the bombers. Can they do close fly-bys which may draw fire?) Read previous answer...
For a Successful Drop, +3 points for a destroyed object. “Successful Drop” for bombers is achieved during a Mission to a Valid Target once a bomber pilot destroys at least one object in the assigned target area.
Note: Once you get enough for a Successful Drop in a Mission, you don’t get more points for killing more objects in the mission.
(Does this mean a player flying a formation of bombers can only earn 3 points per target no matter how many objects are destroyed - or - by mission you mean 3 points per sortie if one object is destroyed between a primary and secondary target? Is this in order to mitigate the potential for bombers to score too many points? Should players drop as few bombs as possible to leave destroy-able objects for other players?)
Essentially Yes... There are no points for a gross number of objects destroyed. If a bomber pilot hits a "Legal" target object, then they produce their maximum score for that mission. Bomber pilots will continue to produce their score, per mission, as "required" missions are launched by the Allies.
(Noticing that offline these bases are Axis, will they all be changes to Allied before the event? Will they and can they be changed as the event progresses?) Yes... the CM team will be managing this process.
(Same goes for the Allied fighter launch fields.) Read previous answer...
Thanks for your questions. We hope these answers have brought clarity.
:salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Brooke on April 13, 2019, 02:42:45 PM
Swareiam, I think what he means for a couple of these is that the writeup also needs correcting.
In "MOTD" section, it says "Takeoffs happen on every hour mark (noon, 1 pm, 2 pm, etc.) and are shut down otherwise in between. If you miss a takeoff hour mark, please join us for next one." Please delete.
"Main Rules" says "Bomber maximum altitude is 25k and minimum altitude is 18k When descending for landing or when an aircraft is heavily damaged." That needs to be "Bomber maximum altitude is 25k. Minimum altitude is 18k except when descending for landing or if an aircraft is heavily damaged."
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Devil 505 on April 13, 2019, 06:09:50 PM
Some issues concerning the Luftwaffe units.
2./Jg 52 is incorrect. They were in Czechoslovakia fighting the Soviets at this time. I assume you confused "2" for "II". In Luftwaffe units, arabic numerals indicate individual squadrons - in this case "2" is 2 Staffel(squadron). Roman numerals indicade an organized group of squadrons - in the case of Jg 52, II Gruppe(group) is comprised of 5,6,7, and 8 Staffeln(squadrons) in 1945. You should choose one of those squadrons.
14./Jg 26 was not operating in the area of our map. They were based in northwest Germany. I and II/Jg 6 were operation in Southeast Germany with Doras. I suggest renaming this squad to 6./Jg 6.
A unit labeled "Stab." denotes the command staff of either the entire Geschwader or an individual Gruppe in a Geschwader. In either case, the Stab would only have 4 pilots and 4-6 planes. I recommend changing Stab./Jg 300 to a proper staffel from II/Jg 300.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: swareiam on April 13, 2019, 09:15:04 PM
2./Jg 52 is incorrect. They were in Czechoslovakia fighting the Soviets at this time. I assume you confused "2" for "II". In Luftwaffe units, arabic numerals indicate individual squadrons - in this case "2" is 2 Staffel(squadron). Roman numerals indicade an organized group of squadrons - in the case of Jg 52, II Gruppe(group) is comprised of 5,6,7, and 8 Staffeln(squadrons) in 1945. You should choose one of those squadrons.
14./Jg 26 was not operating in the area of our map. They were based in northwest Germany. I and II/Jg 6 were operation in Southeast Germany with Doras. I suggest renaming this squad to 6./Jg 6.
A unit labeled "Stab." denotes the command staff of either the entire Geschwader or an individual Gruppe in a Geschwader. In either case, the Stab would only have 4 pilots and 4-6 planes. I recommend changing Stab./Jg 300 to a proper staffel from II/Jg 300.
Devil,
We are open to making some modifications on unit names and any mistakes we have made. Thanks for the suggestions on unit changes. One of the things we are trying to do is to ensure that we have a skin to go with each unit that we have called out. Of course you being a skinner can appreciate the value of this.
We absolutely want units that were in the area, but are falling short on units with available skins.
Can you help redirect us to participating units that have "skins in the game".
Thanks for your help.
:salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 13, 2019, 10:06:22 PM
In "MOTD" section, it says "Takeoffs happen on every hour mark (noon, 1 pm, 2 pm, etc.) and are shut down otherwise in between. If you miss a takeoff hour mark, please join us for next one." Please delete.
This is a very important clarification for me. No takeoff windows means a lot. :salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Devil 505 on April 13, 2019, 10:48:24 PM
We are open to making some modifications on unit names and any mistakes we have made. Thanks for the suggestions on unit changes. One of the things we are trying to do is to ensure that we have a skin to go with each unit that we have called out. Of course you being a skinner can appreciate the value of this.
We absolutely want units that were in the area, but are falling short on units with available skins.
Can you help redirect us to participating units that have "skins in the game".
Thanks for your help.
:salute
Piece of cake.
190D-9: 6./Jg 6 190A-8: 7./Jg 300 (I'm currently making this skin) 109G-14: 2./Jg 300 109K-4: 12./Jg 27
:cheers:
Title: Re: Clarification on TFT Bavaria '45 rules needed
Post by: Arlo on April 14, 2019, 03:29:58 PM
Essentially Yes... There are no points for a gross number of objects destroyed. If a bomber pilot hits a "Legal" target object, then they produce their maximum score for that mission. Bomber pilots will continue to produce their score, per mission, as "required" missions are launched by the Allies.
Sorry, but I must ask again for clarification: There are two targets per phase. "One “Mission” is a launch, traveling toward one or more Valid Targets, and land back at a base if still alive." If the bombers can attack more than one target per mission (once per target, I presume) then are they awarded points for each target? This makes a difference. For instance:
If the points are awarded per player/bomber flight (or remnant thereof) and are only awarded for a single successful bomber drop per mission then the theoretical maximum number of points that may be achieved for 12 players per mission is 36.
If the points are awarded per player/bomber flight (or remnant thereof) and are awarded per valid target per mission then it is double that - 72 (again, theoretically since it would require all bomber flights successfully hit one object per target and that would require minimal [or no] losses).
The 36 point differential per mission could be quite a factor, especially when all four (3 hour) phases worth of missions are totaled.
Also, the bombers are only allowed the bomb load of 6 X 1000 bombs. I'm not sure why, since it doesn't matter how many bombs are dropped or how big they are. I can easily see group leads asking players to limit their drops to a minimal amount or even to designate which objects to target on a given target map in order to leave targets for following flights. On one hand, 3k worth of bombs can deal a fair amount of collateral damage to surrounding nearby targets. On the other, a salvo of three 1k bombs per plane can increase the likelihood of the player scoring a hit if he's not an 'expert bombardier' or he has had to make last minute adjustments due to defensive maneuvering and such.
While having the larger number of 16 X 250 lb. bombs also increases the chance of a player erroneously dropping larger salvos and hitting too many targets (thereby reducing said target availability for others), with discipline and well-placed single salvos, the collateral damage should be minimized.
I didn't see (or may have missed) what the object rebuild time is set to. I respectfully request it be set as low as possible to facilitate target availability for succeeding flights. The logs will still reflect whether or not a player destroyed an object on a sortie (or an object per valid target given the delays in time stamps).
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: swareiam on April 14, 2019, 04:24:30 PM
Arlo,
The bombers have two targets per phase. There will be a single mission per target. The initial target preference will not be known by the defenders, but of course the second one will.
Different fuel and ammo loads cause aircraft to be able or unable to reach certain speeds and altitudes. It is always better for the bombers to carry the same loadouts. You are correct in that it does not matter for the scoring, but it does matter for the BG.
Historically, bomber formations did not make a second pass on a target unless the lead bomber was unable to pinpoint the release and the commander didn't mind putting the group in jeopardy twice, but in large one pass. The larger load of bombs allows a single salvo to have much destructive power and leave the ship quickly. That way the entire formation can get turned around and headed back at the same time.
So to sum things up;
Two targets, two missions to hit them.
A single release and a positive hit, gets you all the points you can get for that mission.
We'll regulate the ordnance type to mimic a more historical bomber mission.
Yes, there will be a maximum score achievable in a single phase for the bombers. The escort will generate the rest.
Does that clear things up?
We will address these areas to make them more clear in the write up.
Thanks for your questions and inputs.
:salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 14, 2019, 05:13:10 PM
Without too much errata, I require specific answers (again, my apologies - but the time to clear this up is obviously well before the 12 hour event begins).
A single mission per target = a single target per mission?
Fuel loads at a burn of 1 will likely not be full.
The bomb load weight of 6 X 1000 lb bombs is 6000 lbs.
The bomb load weight of 16 X 250 lb bombs is 4000 lbs.
I didn't ask about a second pass on the same target. I asked about a mission with a primary and secondary target - both being dropped on. Having said that, it is understood that, historically, U.S. Army Air Corps bombers did not generally bomb multiple targets per mission but were assigned secondary and even tertiary targets if the primary (or secondary) target(s) was obscured. This, being an online modified simulation of such (fewer overall bombers, etc.), it could just as easily be designed for multiple targets per group/mission to facilitate point earning (though the odds of the group succeeding in such, in whole or in part are quite slim). It does make a difference. However, you appear to be saying that a mission involves a takeoff, attacking one target and a landing (if the last two can be accomplished) - though you haven't exactly put it in those exact terms, I will take it as such unless a modification to that is revealed later.
Point being - the maximum amount of points that can be earned on one single bomber mission (if all 12 players are assigned that mission) is 3 points per player (36) with all of them dropping on one target and not getting in each other's way by dropping large salvos haphazardly, if I am interpreting the write-up correctly. This can be broken up to 18 per group if simultaneous missions are run against two targets. And that depends on all players making it to target with at least one bomber and successfully destroying at least one designated target object.
Win or loss obviously depends on points. However, my personal fun isn't measured by such. I do want to accurately provide other players on my side with details.
Again, I must ask (I've got a hammer on my desk for daring to type this reiteration) - Will object rebuild times be minimized so multiple runs on a target (another mission/group hitting the same target, later in the phase) will not result in having no objects left to destroy?
Thank you - I'm not trying to tire you in accurately providing answers - honest. :salute :D :cheers:
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Brooke on April 14, 2019, 11:41:02 PM
Bomber scoring works the same as in Nuisance Raids, Pantelleria, and Kuban.
Bomber pilots get 3 points for a Successful Drop.
A Successful Drop is if he destroys at least one Valid Target in a Mission. A Mission is launch, go to a target, come back or die in the process.
So a bomber pilot launches, kills 1 building (or 2 buildings, or 23 buildings), and comes back (or dies in the process) -- he gets +3 points.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 15, 2019, 12:25:18 AM
Bomber scoring works the same as in Nuisance Raids, Pantelleria, and Kuban.
Bomber pilots get 3 points for a Successful Drop.
A Successful Drop is if he destroys at least one Valid Target in a Mission. A Mission is launch, go to a target, come back or die in the process.
So a bomber pilot launches, kills 1 building (or 2 buildings, or 23 buildings), and comes back (or dies in the process) -- he gets +3 points.
Realizing that I did not fly in any of those previous events and there may be other players that did not:
"One “Mission” is a launch, traveling toward one or more Valid Targets, and land back at a base if still alive." actually means toward just one valid target. So proceeding to the second valid target is meaningless since there will be no further points added to the previously earned points (if indeed points were earned on that single valid target).
Will the object destroy time be minimized or will there be object destroy times that discourage bomber players who lose their entire formation before they get to the target from immediately launching for the target again (or even waiting a potentially short period until they can form with at least another two players in similar circumstances to do so)?
I understand that bomber players are encouraged to try to stay alive and complete their mission all the way to landing and that they are to be discouraged from crashing or bailing in order to re-up faster ... but I might recommend some sort of point rewards for landing that might help encourage them further in such regard. I mean, face it, players can be crafty enough to make sure they are shot down (even though it awards axis pilots points) rather than have to fly all the way back home. If they earned at least one point per plane brought home it might help give them motivation not to. (If this is not deemed practical or if it's thought to somehow bring imbalance into the design, so be it. I just rather use carrots than sticks to inspire fellow allied bomber pilots to fly like they care about their planes and crews). :salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 15, 2019, 01:23:11 AM
On fourth thought, never-mind.
A mission is one valid target then do one's level best to bring your planes and crews home. Once home or dead (remember, fight with all your strength/talent not to die because that is expected), one may re-up for valid targets of the phase (geez, another question - if the phase passes to another phase do bombers continue onto the original target or switch to the next phase target? Do they have to return home first by safely landing so they would spawn from the correct phase spawn?)
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: 1ijac on April 15, 2019, 01:32:44 AM
Arlo, The way I understand the scoring, bombers get 3 points for a successful drop of an object in a mission and only 3 points are available. If a bomber formation bails or augers, the enemy will be awarded 3 points for the 3 deaths. If all 3 bombers in the formation are shot down, the enemy gets one point for each bomber kill (3 points). So there is incentive to get as many as the bomber formation birds back. Otherwise, why even fly the mission if one is going to intentionally die in their bombers and drones. It would be a wash in points if a player did that.
:::::: Slaps Arlo on the fanny :::::: Go gettum Tiger! :)
One-eye
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Brooke on April 15, 2019, 01:37:32 AM
Label A: take off try to bomb targets. did you hit any? -- If yes, add 3 points -- If no, add 0 points try to get back to base for landing if you are still alive goto Label A
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 15, 2019, 02:34:38 AM
Clarification for my original questions are understood. :salute
If the phase passes to the next phase before my bombers make it to the original phase's target (even if only a minute out), do bombers continue on to the original target or switch to the next phase's target (running a greater risk of interception/ shoot down)? If neither, do they have to return home first by safely landing so they would spawn from the correct (new) phase spawn point since bailing or augering would award points to the enemy (also running a risk of intercept with no points awarded)? :headscratch:
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: swareiam on April 15, 2019, 07:24:31 AM
Clarification for my original questions are understood. :salute
If the phase passes to the next phase before my bombers make it to the original phase's target (even if only a minute out), do bombers continue on to the original target or switch to the next phase's target (running a greater risk of interception/ shoot down)? If neither, do they have to return home first by safely landing so they would spawn from the correct (new) phase spawn point since bailing or augering would award points to the enemy (also running a risk of intercept with no points awarded)? :headscratch:
Arlo,
This is why we attempt to have a strong side CO and Bomber skipper to lead the formation. A lot of your questions will be answered by your CO and GL once the event is underway.
A lot of your forethought on these issues are unnecessary right now. Guys likely APDrone and Slipknot are suburb at amassing their formations, getting the target hit and getting their pilots back home as well, it's all in the planning. Besides, the likelihood that you will be flying around the target area by yourself and survive long enough to drop your ordnance is extremely low. I know of at least 42 other aircraft that are trying to prevent you from doing just that.
Flossy is the only one I know that has ever successfully pulled that off more than once. She got a bunch of gunner kills to prove it.
Again, a lot of your questions will be directly answered by the CO and the Bomber skipper, as far as approach and egress on a target.
Thanks again for your questions.
:salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 15, 2019, 07:53:29 AM
My apologies. I 'll leave future scenario rule clarification questions to my CO when we have one to ask them. :salute :cheers:
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Brooke on April 16, 2019, 04:14:26 PM
Targets will be per phase.
So, if bombers are up and won't get to a target by end of phase, they need to take into account that they will need to go to the target that is active in the next phase.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 16, 2019, 05:43:35 PM
So, if bombers are up and won't get to a target by end of phase, they need to take into account that they will need to go to the target that is active in the next phase.
Thanks, man. :) :cheers:
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Guppy35 on April 19, 2019, 12:45:40 AM
Late question but I’m wondering how you’ve justified 4 262s and 2 234s with the small numbers involved?
Back in the days of 100+ a side events, 4 262s threw things off. Now you are taking 10 percent of the Luftwaffe and putting them in jets.
As an aside I’m also curious how those from the design/CM team can justify grabbing seats in those jets, if for no other reason than it looks bad to any new guy looking at the event for the first time.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: puller on April 19, 2019, 07:50:00 AM
The 262s don't really bother me in the setup...if anything...I would set aside small group of Ponies to hunt said CMs in 262s...but I like challenges... :aok
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Shuffler on April 19, 2019, 09:49:42 PM
The 262s don't really bother me in the setup...if anything...I would set aside small group of Ponies to hunt said CMs in 262s...but I like challenges... :aok
You missed the whole point of his post.
I really enjoy these 12 hour events but I believe I will sit this one out.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: perdue3 on April 20, 2019, 12:55:36 AM
Guppy,
We actually discussed Me 262's at length while designing this. If you look at the change logs in the event you will see that the discussion swung many times. The Me 262 is overrated in events, in my opinion and some others. Sounds rich from perdweeb, I know, but success against high altitude, late war USAAF is difficult to obtain. B-17 and B-24 formations (boxes if you will) are death sentences to 262's. I, and my squadron under my orders in FSO, do not attack them unless they are alone (without fighters and without multiple formations around them). If the sets find themselves alone, they are certainly dead. So, instead, it is more effective to attack and attract escorts. This also means that you are a target for likely higher fighters. In this setup, there is no fighter alt cap. Me 262's will struggle to get to 28K while P-51's and P-47's circle over at 32-34K. Relatively, the 262 is not as fast as it seems at 12K in the MA, the speed charts conform to this.
With regards to the number of Me 262's, it is a twofold answer. Having anything less than 4 of anything that shoots down aircraft should not happen. This is regardless of how many pilots are participating. It makes for a strange strategic element as well as a strange experience for the pilots. This is an opinion, mind you, and I expect many to disagree with this. I believe that if you cannot justify having four fighters of any kind, then you may as well have zero. I do not recall jets throwing things off. I remember Frame 6 of BoG when the jets did little, accounting for only around 10% of the total Axis kills. I am not saying that jets aren't or won't be impactful, but they are nothing like what you are describing. I have flown 262's in about every setting one could imagine, my least favorite is against late war Americans at high altitude. The reasons for this should be obvious.
As for the Ar 234, it is nigh harmless. It scouts and goes fast, that is about it. It is not allowed to attack bombers nor may it bomb anything. It will just fly around and report locations. I wouldn't worry too much about them, personally.
After consoling the list of aircraft and squadrons available in this event, I thought I might like to fly the Me 262 and lead its pilots. As the CO of the only dedicated Me 262 squadron in Aces High, I believe our squadron and myself always needs sharpening. In fact, last year we had a squad discussion about our poor performances in jets over the last few events we had them in. I really enjoy flying the Me 262, just as some enjoy flying F4U's, P-38's, Fw 190D's, P-51's, etc. I also enjoy the tactics at the grand and local levels of a jet squadron. I don't quite understand how it looks bad to choose an airplane and squadron to fly in on the registration page. With that being said, if a newcomer to TFT wishes to fly a Me 262 and there are none to go around, he may certainly fly mine a round or two if the Axis CO is okay with it :aok.
:salute
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: TWCAxew on April 20, 2019, 01:54:40 AM
We actually discussed Me 262's at length while designing this. If you look at the change logs in the event you will see that the discussion swung many times. The Me 262 is overrated in events, in my opinion and some others. Sounds rich from perdweeb, I know, but success against high altitude, late war USAAF is difficult to obtain. B-17 and B-24 formations (boxes if you will) are death sentences to 262's. I, and my squadron under my orders in FSO, do not attack them unless they are alone (without fighters and without multiple formations around them). If the sets find themselves alone, they are certainly dead. So, instead, it is more effective to attack and attract escorts. This also means that you are a target for likely higher fighters. In this setup, there is no fighter alt cap. Me 262's will struggle to get to 28K while P-51's and P-47's circle over at 32-34K. Relatively, the 262 is not as fast as it seems at 12K in the MA, the speed charts conform to this.
With regards to the number of Me 262's, it is a twofold answer. Having anything less than 4 of anything that shoots down aircraft should not happen. This is regardless of how many pilots are participating. It makes for a strange strategic element as well as a strange experience for the pilots. This is an opinion, mind you, and I expect many to disagree with this. I believe that if you cannot justify having four fighters of any kind, then you may as well have zero. I do not recall jets throwing things off. I remember Frame 6 of BoG when the jets did little, accounting for only around 10% of the total Axis kills. I am not saying that jets aren't or won't be impactful, but they are nothing like what you are describing. I have flown 262's in about every setting one could imagine, my least favorite is against late war Americans at high altitude. The reasons for this should be obvious.
As for the Ar 234, it is nigh harmless. It scouts and goes fast, that is about it. It is not allowed to attack bombers nor may it bomb anything. It will just fly around and report locations. I wouldn't worry too much about them, personally.
After consoling the list of aircraft and squadrons available in this event, I thought I might like to fly the Me 262 and lead its pilots. As the CO of the only dedicated Me 262 squadron in Aces High, I believe our squadron and myself always needs sharpening. In fact, last year we had a squad discussion about our poor performances in jets over the last few events we had them in. I really enjoy flying the Me 262, just as some enjoy flying F4U's, P-38's, Fw 190D's, P-51's, etc. I also enjoy the tactics at the grand and local levels of a jet squadron. I don't quite understand how it looks bad to choose an airplane and squadron to fly in on the registration page. With that being said, if a newcomer to TFT wishes to fly a Me 262 and there are none to go around, he may certainly fly mine a round or two if the Axis CO is okay with it :aok.
:salute
I appreciate your taking the time to respond. But I will still disagree. Having been in those scenarios where Jets were involved I know from the Allied side how much of an impact they have for those that have to deal with them. You've not been in that position in a scenario. The bombers aren't at high alt and with the LW fighter force larger than the Allied fighter escort, it makes it that much more unbalanced. The argument made for balanced numbers or in general larger LW fighters to defend, is playability and 'fairness'. The same applies when it comes to jets. They have a far greater impact in these scenarios than they ever did historically.
I do understand that this isn't going to change for this event.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Guppy35 on April 20, 2019, 02:08:25 PM
I appreciate your taking the time to respond. But I will still disagree. Having been in those scenarios where Jets were involved I know from the Allied side how much of an impact they have for those that have to deal with them. You've not been in that position in a scenario. The bombers aren't at high alt and with the LW fighter force larger than the Allied fighter escort, it makes it that much more unbalanced. The argument made for balanced numbers or in general larger LW fighters to defend, is playability and 'fairness'. The same applies when it comes to jets. They have a far greater impact in these scenarios than they ever did historically.
I do understand that this isn't going to change for this event.
You aren't wrong, Guppy. I have never been on the escorting side of things trying to corner jets. I have also never flown bombers against jets in scenarios. I would guess that I have flown a jet in events more than most and based on that experience, they are not as scary as you describe them. I am as afraid of B-17's as they are of me. Alas, these are differing opinions and not facts. So it is somewhat moot and futile.
Even though the event is designed to have the Luftwaffe outnumber the Allied escorts, I doubt it will work out that way. Because of the nature of the event and lack of launch windows, it will be somewhat of a circus on the Luftwaffe side. I hope this is not the case and as a Luftwaffe officer, I will do my best to keep this from happening. But, as people die and relaunch at will, things will get spread out and sparse. So, even if the Luftwaffe outnumbers the Allied fighters, I doubt they will ever actually be outnumbered. Not to mention the ominous registration numbers as of today.
The decision really came down to it being a 1945 event. Why run a 1945 event and leave out 1945 aircraft? Rather than going with both the Ta 152 and Me 262, we decided to go with only the Me 262. In many ways, the Ta 152 is much more dangerous. The same would (sort of) apply to a 1945 Pacific event. The B-29 would (probably) be included, but in a fictional role as it would likely be escorted at medium altitudes rather than firebombing at night or flying unescorted at 42,000 ft. Here, the Me 262 is not in a fictional role like the B-29 would be.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Shuffler on April 20, 2019, 02:49:12 PM
Well, this is your timid-free event, then. You can shed the shackles of fear when you have unlimited 262s and you can up and get back into the fray faster than any other combat plane in the setup.
Splashing a 262 should be worth more points than other kills, though. :aok
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: swareiam on April 20, 2019, 03:10:10 PM
Ignoring our scenario history just means we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.
No, what is both dooming and damning is when we look at history that is not so pleasant and do nothing about it. We fare far better if we move forward together as we make mistakes along the way to correct our issues.
This makes me think of the guy that has $500.00 in his pocket and he's driving around with a slow leak in his front left tire. He complains about it, but he won't do anything about it, especially when has the means to do so. :headscratch:
Com'n... Enough is enough.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 03:13:45 PM
No, what is both dooming and damning is when we look at history that is not so pleasant and do nothing about it. We fare far better if we move forward together as we make mistakes along the way to correct our issues.
This makes me think of the guy that has $500.00 in his pocket and he's driving around with a slow leak in his front left tire. He complains about it, but he won't do anything about it, especially when has the means to do so. :headscratch:
No, what is both dooming and damning is when we look at history that is not so pleasant and do nothing about it. We fare far better if we move forward together as we make mistakes along the way to correct our issues.
This makes me think of the guy that has $500.00 in his pocket and he's driving around with a slow leak in his front left tire. He complains about it, but he won't do anything about it, especially when has the means to do so. :headscratch:
Com'n... Enough is enough.
Exactly .... and nothing is being done about it. Just repeating the same mistake. Glad to see you agree.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: perdue3 on April 20, 2019, 05:23:05 PM
What would you recommend aside from removing the six jets?
Not speaking for Shuf, but ....
Just allow the Arados to be shot down on sight and up the points for either them or the 262s being splashed. Then have at it. Unlimited free jets in an event, man.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: puller on April 20, 2019, 05:30:41 PM
Wow
So we're gonna do this????
How about give the Axis 10 152s for our jets because freaking 24 ponies is too many
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: puller on April 20, 2019, 05:32:30 PM
Just allow the Arados to be shot down on sight and up the points for either them or the 262s being splashed. Then have at it. Unlimited free jets in an event, man.
How is 4 jets at a time unlimited....how about the Allied 24 unlimited ponies at a time...the Axis will be lucky to have 24 players total
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 05:32:42 PM
This is an "I don't wanna play because the Axis have 4 jets" negotiation from the Allied side...leave the jets out!!!!
Leave em out....
Bump our Dora's and give us 152s
K4s are hard to use by noobs....
There is no Allied negotiation against the 262s. You're confusing Shuf's reason for not flying this event with your imagination. I say leave the unlimited access to 262s for Perdue and his buddies. Just consider them worth more point-wise. Your added wrangling in this just comes off as silliness.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 05:42:45 PM
Late question but I’m wondering how you’ve justified 4 262s and 2 234s with the small numbers involved?
Back in the days of 100+ a side events, 4 262s threw things off. Now you are taking 10 percent of the Luftwaffe and putting them in jets.
As an aside I’m also curious how those from the design/CM team can justify grabbing seats in those jets, if for no other reason than it looks bad to any new guy looking at the event for the first time.
I didn't bring it up first...
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 05:46:05 PM
Take it up with Guppy. He's not Allied command staff (neither am I). Silly Okie. :D
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: puller on April 20, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Take it up with Guppy. He's not Allied command staff (neither am I). Silly Okie. :D
I simply stated if we're gonna all be pissy with jets leave them out...leave em out....
I'm not taking one...I really don't care because I have been involved in every 12 hour scenario to date and know what is going to happen to the Axis side...I don't care how many jets there are...
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 05:50:31 PM
Arados are not allowed to shoot at bomber formations. Although they are allowed to shoot back at fighters. I did ask, once, if they're allowed to shoot at bombers if they buzz the formations and draw fire. I was told to stop over-thinking things. This is what happens when you overthink. :)
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: perdue3 on April 20, 2019, 06:55:31 PM
Just allow the Arados to be shot down on sight and up the points for either them or the 262s being splashed. Then have at it. Unlimited free jets in an event, man.
As it is written, Ar 234's can be killed by anything at any time. Also, Ar 234's are currently worth 2 fighters. However, Me 262's are worth 1 point like all the other fighters. I would have nothing against increasing the point value of the Me 262. I would also be happy to trade all six jets for ten Ta 152's, as puller suggested. But, I do not speak for the entire TFT team.
Also, I have read many comments about perdweeb being in a Me 262. If that is somehow hurting this event, I will gladly not fly the Me 262. I am uncertain as to how that is the case, but if there is an overwhelming number of complaints regarding this, I will oblige. I am here to help the event grow and events in general prosper. If my participation in a certain aircraft takes away from that I will find another aircraft to fly. :salute
:cheers:
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 07:22:58 PM
I would have nothing against increasing the point value of the Me 262. I would also be happy to trade all six jets for ten Ta 152's, as puller suggested. But, I do not speak for the entire TFT team.
The former sounds easier .... and even better. Get with the rest of the TFT team. I bet Allied command wouldn't mind but, like you, I don't speak for them. I want you in a 262. I really do. :D
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Shuffler on April 20, 2019, 07:38:10 PM
This is an "I don't wanna play because the Axis have 4 jets" negotiation from the Allied side...leave the jets out!!!!
Leave em out....
Bump our Dora's and give us 152s
K4s are hard to use by noobs....
Come on Puller, you gotta do better than this. Part of your argument is there will be less LW. Not in the design. We aren’t talking about recruiting. Then you say K4s are hard to fly? Some dismiss their performance advantages? Lose the D9s and get 152s? Interesting logic.
As I said in response to Perdweeb. I know it can’t change at this point. Too late in the game to upend it. I wanted to understand the logic and express my concern.
One of the fundamental issues going back forever with scenarios involving buffs is giving the bomber guys a chance. In this event there is a small amount of bombers. Escorts are outnumbered as well. Now you have two 234s as scouts. Untouchable unless they are completely clueless, to find on group of buffs and direct the fighters to it. It’s tough enough when the scouts are K4s.
You talk about all those Mustangs. Yet they are matched and overmatched by the LW in performance and numbers. I’m a 38 guy, but I took a 51 to give myself half a chance. I’ve flown escorts in 38s. In this set up they will be at a big disadvantage.
Real simple if I’m LW CO. Send my 234s to find the buffs and run from the fighters. Then my 262s make passes at the fighters to disrupt the escorts. Then my piston engine jobs make a pass at the bomber formation and by the third hour the 17 guys are saying the heck with this.
In the end I worry most about the bomber guys as they are the hardest to get involved and the easiest to discourage. Betting on low LW numbers as a way to balance the game play is a poor approach
Again. Perdweeb answered my question so that’s it. I hope my concerns prove to be unwarranted. My previous experience gives me that concern
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 20, 2019, 11:17:07 PM
"As you were. All right, men. We have a job to do. It's a hard job. It's a dangerous job. Most of us will die. Maybe all. But ... that's our job. Remember to stock up on beer and to give each other a head's up when you head to the head. Those of you that make it all the way to the target, and it will be few of you ... if any, don't forget to drop bombs. All it takes is one that actually hits the designated target, not a church, school or hospital, like last time, and you will receive a shiny medal (possibly posthumously as you die trying to make it home). The good news is you get to do this over and over again. For 12 hours, if you're up to it.
To sum things up:
You're more than likely gonna die. Bring beer. Drop a bomb if you make it there. Don't commit a war crime. Try to make it home, but if you don't we'll mail your medal to your family."
[Orderly screams 'Dis-missed!']
[Everyone streams to the O-club because this mission doesn't begin for almost a month.]
*(See? All it takes is the right frame of mind and it'll be a blast.)*
:D :cheers: :banana: :old: :airplane:
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: TWCAxew on April 21, 2019, 02:29:45 AM
Allied command has not lobbied against the jets. True they are a mennece to deal with but we also see why they are included. Without them the ponies would out preform the axis planes.
10 TA 152s in my opinion would be worse to deal with than 4 262's.
I just hope to see the roster get filled and we will have loads of fun. It's gonna be a great day for all those involved, please join :aok
DutchVII
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: swareiam on April 21, 2019, 09:07:37 AM
To be terribly honest chaps. Jets burn just like any other plane...
Come on Puller, you gotta do better than this. Part of your argument is there will be less LW. Not in the design. We aren’t talking about recruiting. Then you say K4s are hard to fly? Some dismiss their performance advantages? Lose the D9s and get 152s? Interesting logic.
As I said in response to Perdweeb. I know it can’t change at this point. Too late in the game to upend it. I wanted to understand the logic and express my concern.
One of the fundamental issues going back forever with scenarios involving buffs is giving the bomber guys a chance. In this event there is a small amount of bombers. Escorts are outnumbered as well. Now you have two 234s as scouts. Untouchable unless they are completely clueless, to find on group of buffs and direct the fighters to it. It’s tough enough when the scouts are K4s.
You talk about all those Mustangs. Yet they are matched and overmatched by the LW in performance and numbers. I’m a 38 guy, but I took a 51 to give myself half a chance. I’ve flown escorts in 38s. In this set up they will be at a big disadvantage.
Real simple if I’m LW CO. Send my 234s to find the buffs and run from the fighters. Then my 262s make passes at the fighters to disrupt the escorts. Then my piston engine jobs make a pass at the bomber formation and by the third hour the 17 guys are saying the heck with this.
In the end I worry most about the bomber guys as they are the hardest to get involved and the easiest to discourage. Betting on low LW numbers as a way to balance the game play is a poor approach
Again. Perdweeb answered my question so that’s it. I hope my concerns prove to be unwarranted. My previous experience gives me that concern
Keep in mind there will also be darbar and the target areas are small, so there isn't a whole lot of room to run to begin with. Ar 234 will only make the locations a bit more pinpoint.
Neither of the jets do well above 26K or so, I'd say 30K is the absolute max for the 262 before it starts to suffer with turns and performance, and escort fighters should be well above 30K.
The event was not balanced based on projected low numbers of Luftwaffe pilots. With that said, it should be taken into consideration when approaching game-day. Allied rides are generally more appealing to the player base and will be able to be 'filled' much easier on game-day (ie the walk-ons and newcomers to events), as evidenced by the current registration page. If those numbers were our game-day numbers, the B-17s will have a great time never losing a drone.
As for your previous post, I will gladly not fly a 234 if someone else wants to fly around scouting in one for 12 hours.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 21, 2019, 10:57:15 AM
The event was not balanced based on projected low numbers of Luftwaffe pilots. With that said, it should be taken into consideration when approaching game-day. Allied rides are generally more appealing to the player base and will be able to be 'filled' much easier on game-day (ie the walk-ons and newcomers to events), as evidenced by the current registration page. If those numbers were our game-day numbers, the B-17s will have a great time never losing a drone.
Lack of participation based on a false sense of persecution has never been an Allied problem, I agree.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: perdue3 on April 21, 2019, 11:11:33 AM
As I said in response to Perdweeb. I know it can’t change at this point. Too late in the game to upend it. I wanted to understand the logic and express my concern.
Real simple if I’m LW CO. Send my 234s to find the buffs and run from the fighters. Then my 262s make passes at the fighters to disrupt the escorts. Then my piston engine jobs make a pass at the bomber formation and by the third hour the 17 guys are saying the heck with this.
No one said it can't be changed. If there is a glaring issue that causes ruffles in the community who is going to fly it, I would hope we can change it. Again, I do not speak for the entire team. I would certainly lobby for changes if an overwhelming number of people complained about a certain idea or facet of the event. Currently, three people are complaining about jets. But, these complaints are derived from opinions and one-sided experiences. Likewise, the counter to those arguments are the same. I get the argument, jets are scary and nigh untouchable in the right hands. But, they cannot do what 10 K-4's can do. They also attract more attention than A-8's and Doras, which is a mixed blessing. They are also exponentially easier to kill at altitude. I legitimately believe that they will not have the impact most think they will. They will get plenty of kills and will have an impact on whether or not the Axis win, but they will not break the event. Ten Ta 152's would break the event.
That is just about it, Guppy. A very simple plan, but if executed correctly, we will annihilate the Allies. The problem with your 262 plan is that the Allies will be above them, so it is more about attracting fighters low which will cost the Allies because they will have given up premium positioning. If they dive, they allow our 109's to get above them, if they stay high the jets are rendered just about useless until the rest of the defenders show up. Also, all it would take is one or two P-51's to send the jets low. If you sacrifice two P-51's, you push the jets away for at least 10 minutes. It is these sorts of decisions and execution that make flying jets and flying with them so fun and intriguing. And, honestly, your plan is not all that different from a typical plan not involving jets. Replace both jets with 109's, after spotting regroup then let the 109's toy with the fighters leaving the bombers for killers.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: puller on April 21, 2019, 11:29:42 AM
The 262s don't really bother me in the setup...if anything...I would set aside small group of Ponies to hunt said CMs in 262s...but I like challenges... :aok
Perd said it way more eloquently....and I was being a little sarcastic too....I didn't want the discussion to go where it did because of my response to guppy to begin with....sorry
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 21, 2019, 11:41:13 AM
Which three event participants are currently complaining about jets?
Most of the discussion in this thread is about jets, with Shuffler, Guppy, and yourself being the voices against the Me 262 in some fashion or another. It is okay to complain, I have complained my entire life. In fact, these events only improve through criticism. But, three is not overwhelming. My point was to put a number on the matter in order to point out that it is not overwhelming yet. It really makes no difference who is complaining as that is not the point.
Regardless, at this point we do not have an event because the Axis have 8 pilots. So, we need to step up our recruiting game.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 21, 2019, 12:02:59 PM
... with Shuffler, Guppy, and yourself being the voices against the Me 262 in some fashion or another.
Shuffler isn't an event participant. Guppy stated he's satisfied with the status quo. And what part of my statement "I want you in a 262" is confusing?
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: perdue3 on April 21, 2019, 04:22:10 PM
Shuffler isn't an event participant. Guppy stated he's satisfied with the status quo. And what part of my statement "I want you in a 262" is confusing?
Fair enough. No one is complaining about Me 262's, my apologies.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on April 21, 2019, 04:33:08 PM
Yes. What was meant was the fourth hour beginning or the third hour ended. Either way, once the next phase begins, no points may be scored off of targets from the previous phase. In other words, points may only be accrued from targets available during the current phase.
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Arlo on May 04, 2019, 10:50:38 PM
Though I think this has been unofficially clarified as 'no launch windows' ... for official purposes may we have clarification, please?:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ppzc00g.png)
Respectfully, thank you - :salute - Arlo (Guthree)
Title: Re: Target for Today - "Bavaria 1945" - Event Write-Up
Post by: Red37 on May 05, 2019, 12:06:41 AM
Can't wait! Maybe a trophy for this event also? See who wins and in what aircraft. Ju-88 is in the mail and on the way.