General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Eagler on January 12, 2023, 08:00:24 AM
Title: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Eagler on January 12, 2023, 08:00:24 AM
Every 3rd map is a smaller size map limited to only mid war planes
Don't care about gv's or if they have a limited gv set of mw
More about a variety now missing in main in most a2a engagements
Eagler
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 10:08:55 AM
Two weeks.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: whiteman on January 12, 2023, 03:10:11 PM
I'd like something like that mixed in
I wonder if this is an idea i should burned at the stake for? The opening hour of a map started with early war equipment only, then progressed to mid war the 2nd hour and then 3rd hour on is open house all available. I'd like to see a way to work them in the mix so they actually get used other than when eny strikes, which honestly doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: The Fugitive on January 12, 2023, 04:07:10 PM
This will never happen. Your making a wish because you dont like the planes other people are flying. This sounds like ENY but instead of it being based off of population you force players to suffer through it for the length of time it takes to win a map...... in planes many dont want to fly.
The same goes for "whiteman"s idea. All your going to accomplish is have players log off for the first couple of hours to avoid the older planes.... which many dont want to fly.
Like it or not the vast majority of players today like the "win the war" aspect, or the easy kill type of play. They dont want to spend the time needed to become a good fighter. Lawndarting a bunch of bombs and grabbing another plane is more to their liking.
The only thing that is going to help this game is more numbers. As those numbers grow so will the number of players who want to fight in mid war planes will grow. Unfortunately the things that could bring players into the game are dependent on HTC.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 04:27:21 PM
This will never happen. Your making a wish because you dont like the planes other people are flying. This sounds like ENY but instead of it being based off of population you force players to suffer through it for the length of time it takes to win a map...... in planes many dont want to fly.
The same goes for "whiteman"s idea. All your going to accomplish is have players log off for the first couple of hours to avoid the older planes.... which many dont want to fly.
Like it or not the vast majority of players today like the "win the war" aspect, or the easy kill type of play. They dont want to spend the time needed to become a good fighter. Lawndarting a bunch of bombs and grabbing another plane is more to their liking.
The only thing that is going to help this game is more numbers. As those numbers grow so will the number of players who want to fight in mid war planes will grow. Unfortunately the things that could bring players into the game are dependent on HTC.
Fugitive is 100% correct here. The problems that people often seem to bring to these places are symptoms of the onloading issue, you should consider the game blessed to still hit over 100~ Pop peak. The onloading issue HAS to be addressed before any other, streamlining the UI and introduction to gameplay are vital. You have to addict them in those two weeks, but first you have to get them to even try for ONE DAY.
The proof, imo, of onloading being the issue is that these same threads existed at higher pops in the past. There was always complaints about ENY, because it scales. It's honestly a very clever system that does exactly what it's supposed to. Keep the fight going and stop a total annihilation scenario.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: whiteman on January 12, 2023, 04:39:14 PM
This will never happen. Your making a wish because you dont like the planes other people are flying. This sounds like ENY but instead of it being based off of population you force players to suffer through it for the length of time it takes to win a map...... in planes many dont want to fly.
The same goes for "whiteman"s idea. All your going to accomplish is have players log off for the first couple of hours to avoid the older planes.... which many dont want to fly.
Like it or not the vast majority of players today like the "win the war" aspect, or the easy kill type of play. They dont want to spend the time needed to become a good fighter. Lawndarting a bunch of bombs and grabbing another plane is more to their liking.
The only thing that is going to help this game is more numbers. As those numbers grow so will the number of players who want to fight in mid war planes will grow. Unfortunately the things that could bring players into the game are dependent on HTC.
And that's exactly why I figured I'd be burned at the stake.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 04:43:11 PM
And that's exactly why I figured I'd be burned at the stake.
Don't see it that way. :) Ideas are always valid at the core. Player engagement is vital for any game. I can say from my 6 years of open source game developing for multiplayer games though that 'just taking toys away' from players usually backfires. "You don't get the thing I don't want you to have' needs to have a very serious, very logical, very straightforward reasoning to it. Otherwise they take their toys and just leave. Especially when there are other options for a similar game. Better to build up than to remove in this scenario! :rock
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: TWCAxew on January 12, 2023, 04:48:09 PM
Personally I would LOVE it. But other sadly don't.
The best plane would be spit 9 or spit 8. Imagine the 110 and the Mossie become even better than they are already are :banana: And to me that sounds like heaps of fun to me! :cheers: :joystick:
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 04:56:41 PM
Personally I would LOVE it. But other sadly don't.
The best plane would be spit 9 or spit 8. Imagine the 110 and the Mossie become even better than they are already are :banana: And to me that sounds like heaps of fun to me! :cheers: :joystick:
As mostly a Zero/Frank pilot I don't disagree at all, but like many things in life we have to consider others. Even if they're silent on this front. Imagine how empty the MA would feel if those P-51D pilots all just stopped playing for lack of their airplane of choice without the option to switch to a lower pop side to play it. Runstangs are as old as the rocks themselves, but at least they're an active (well...) participant in the gameplay loop.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 05:08:59 PM
You have to addict them in those two weeks, but first you have to get them to even try for ONE DAY.
One day? Get them to stay one hour and you've made a huge improvement.
Hitech posted stats one time. I don't have the link handy, but from memory that out of the thousands and thousands that downloaded the trial during the Steam launch, the significant majority didn't stay 30 min and most never got off the runway.
New user training? Maybe. I'm not convinced. Sure, the intricacies of ACM take a life time of study, but just getting wheels up is not that big a deal. It's not massively different that IL2, or DCS, or any number of flight sims. But HTC does a pretty good job with the default control mapping that just about any $10 twisty stick works fine first try. At least enough to get wheels up. Would necessarily hurt to have a 5 min first flight automated walk thru. I don't know if that would turn the tide.
I suspect a percentage of them have already decided the game isn't for them when they launch and get a message that it isn't a game with a permanent F2P plane-set and more stuff if you subscribe like they are used to from something like War Thunder (with 70 million registered users they have set the market expectations on how a subscription service should monetize).
Instead they get a dialog right a start up that, nope, two week trial and then you can only go into some empty unused arenas. That is not what they were probably expecting. So they already know its not worth an hour of their time to try.
HTC has stated a small F2P plane-set is not an acceptable approach, so I don't know where you go from here.
:salute
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 05:29:13 PM
Every 3rd map is a smaller size map limited to only mid war planes
Don't care about gv's or if they have a limited gv set of mw
More about a variety now missing in main in most a2a engagements
Eagler
What is the advantage of that vs just bringing back the MW arena?
Or people just populating the AvA again with mid-war maps\planes?
Do they even used the AvA for anything now other than tank night and MNM, which are more special events than what the AvA was originally supposed to be. I hear they are great fun, but not really what the AvA was intended to be right?
Sorta like what happened to the History Channel. ;)
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Eagler on January 12, 2023, 05:35:59 PM
I didn't say it wasn't a selfish wish
:cheers:
To your statement about most not getting off the ground..air starts for newbies 2 week trial?
Eagler
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 05:42:42 PM
To your statement about most not getting off the ground..air starts for newbies 2 week trial?
Eagler
I mean I'm not against the idea. The Melee has really become a late war mono-culture. The problem with what you are suggesting is you are trying to force people into mid-war.
I always feel "pull" (or lure) is always a better tactic than push. That way they think it was their idea. ;)
Air starts? I dunno. We already have auto launch right?
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 05:51:08 PM
One day? Get them to stay one hour and you've made a huge improvement.
Hitech posted stats one time. I don't have the link handy, but from memory that out of the thousands and thousands that downloaded the trial during the Steam launch, the significant majority didn't stay 30 min and most never got off the runway.
New user training? Maybe. I'm not convinced. Sure, the intricacies of ACM take a life time of study, but just getting wheels up is not that big a deal. It's not massively different that IL2, or DCS, or any number of flight sims. But HTC does a pretty good job with the default control mapping that just about any $10 twisty stick works fine first try. At least enough to get wheels up. Would necessarily hurt to have a 5 min first flight automated walk thru. I don't know if that would turn the tide.
I suspect a percentage of them have already decided the game isn't for them when they launch and get a message that it isn't a game with a permanent F2P plane-set and more stuff if you subscribe like they are used to from something like War Thunder (with 70 million registered users they have set the market expectations on how a subscription service should monetize).
Instead they get a dialog right a start up that, nope, two week trial and then you can only go into some empty unused arenas. That is not what they were probably expecting. So they already know its not worth an hour of their time to try.
HTC has stated a small F2P plane-set is not an acceptable approach, so I don't know where you go from here.
:salute
All of the players that I've brought with me in the last few days are younger WT players and long term ones at that, and every single one of them wants to sub asap. I can tell you from their raw reactions that the biggest issue isn't the concept of the game (they quite literally feel that AH is everything WT Sim should be) it's the very, very clunky UI that causes them massive amounts of issues. They desperately love what I've put on the table for them, but they also admit the UI would have scared them off without me. So far my success rate of handholding them in is 5 out of 6. The only one that I've lost was due to the way the game handles higher ping (due to them being UK based) around the time of gunshots.
Do not discount how absolutely fed up a massive percentage of the WT community is with the way the game is being managed, AH offers lightning in a bottle to them if they can only get passed the UI clunkery, and once they know it they want to latch onto it like drowning rats. Almost everyone that plays WT wants a better game, AH can be that better game even if its not as 'pretty.'
Quote
To your statement about most not getting off the ground..air starts for newbies 2 week trial?
This is a non-issue, I won't argue semantics about flight models with anyone but AHs flight models are toylike (especially with the combat trim system) compared to Il-2 and DCS. This isn't an attack, it's just fact from a player side. Especially for players that are used to those other games FMs, even WTs 'feels' more responsive but that's NOT the issue. It doesn't matter if those games are 'realistic' or not, the complexity is just much less here and I'd argue that this is on purpose. That is a strength if you double down the concept of being a rabidly vicious BFM sim.
Il-2 and DCS offer dozens and dozens of failure points where you, as a player, can interrupt your own combat experience by inexperience without ever even engaging in a fight. Aces Highs assumption that the pilot in the aircraft knows what he's doing systems wise is smart, and you should focus on that concept. Which isn't to say 'we're an airquake hyper bfm game' but AH makes the player feel empowered in their actions without a need to go read dozens of pages out of a manual, or watch an hour and a half of YT videos just to handle basic flight.
You can, and I have, gotten 5 players almost entirely on the up-and-up for basic gameplay in less than two hours. That is a huge difference to Il-2s hours of engine management practice many feel they need, or DCS weeks of system handling. The issue is its handheld entirely, without what was essentially a UI interpreter they absolutely would have never given it a chance.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 06:06:53 PM
All of the players that I've brought with me in the last few days are younger WT players and long term ones at that, and every single one of them wants to sub asap.
Awesome. Go get about 500 more. ;) It will be interesting to see if they stay 6 months. Keep us informed.
The UI can obviously be improved in many ways. Some you have mentioned.
Do you think the tens of thousands of trial downloads during the Steam launch that didn't end up with subscriptions were only due to the awkward UI?
[edit] Have you looked through the reviews left on Steam? I think outdated UI and graphics were mentioned a lot, but the key take away I got were many were infuriated that the game was listed as F2P but when they started up, they found out it didn't match their definition of F2P (probably because their expectations were set by WT).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying WT is a better game, but I think their F2P model is more successful in luring players to finally get a premium subscription. At least enough of them to make a lot of money.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 06:33:56 PM
Awesome. Go get about 500 more. ;) It will be interesting to see if they stay 6 months. Keep us informed.
The UI can obviously be improved in many ways. Some you have mentioned.
Do you think the tens of thousands of trial downloads during the Steam launch that didn't end up with subscriptions were only due to the awkward UI?
[edit] Have you looked through the reviews left on Steam? I think outdated UI and graphics were mentioned a lot, but the key take away I got were many were infuriated that the game was listed as F2P but when they started up, they found out it didn't match their definition of F2P (probably because their expectations were set by WT).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying WT is a better game, but I think their F2P model is more successful in luring players to finally get a premium subscription. At least enough of them to make a lot of money.
Couple of serious questions here.
"Do you think the tens of thousands of trial downloads during the Steam launch that didn't end up with subscriptions were only due to the awkward UI?"
I don't know the numbers for those downloads, and even if I did being there in the moment with the metrics matters more. Can I say it would have made a difference? Absolutely. I mentioned it in my other post about how UI can be a massive boon for a game, Dwarf Fortress (a game that makes AHs complexity level look quite simple, even including BFM learning) recently finished their full overhaul for their UI and went from the developer barely scraping by to suddenly being a millionaire. Am I saying AH could do the same? Probably not, but UI matters.
How much does UI matter? Well, it's the first interaction that a brand new player has with your game. It's the first experience they'll ever have that's not a YT Video or Stream. Often we call younger players 'unable to handle the complexity' but it's actually (imo) much more to do with them being VERY good at sniffing out stuff that 'doesn't feel right.'
These are players used to a streamlined gaming experience, WT works great because it gets you into battle very quickly and painlessly from the word 'go' but it also has its UI setup in a way that funnels you to any option you're after without much hassle. Meanwhile Aces High has its in-built sound controls hidden behind something as esoteric (to a new player) as joining into an arena, offline or otherwise.
"Was calling the game f2p a mistake on steam?"
I know that's not exactly how you worded it, but it is the essential question imo. The answer is quintessentially yes. Massively overwhelmingly insanely yes. If you break a player, especially a younger players, trust before they've even had time to figure out your UI then you've lost them for life. While I don't consider it to be unreasonable to Aces High to label itself as Free to Play, the actual part of the game that everyone loves and enjoys is absolutely not free to play. The amount of offline content available in comparison to the Main Arena is like comparing a kiddie pool (that you have to make yourself) to the Pacific Ocean.
The thing to understand from WTs pay model is that they are the definition of a 'predatory developer', and the player base is even aware of it. So many of them want a game that doesn't feel the way WT does to play that they're willing to try all sorts of things.
WT isn't getting you to play because the gameplay is amazing, it demands that you ride the grind train (and use premium time/vehicles to give you massive dopamine boosts) to get anywhere. Everything is designed around maximizing profits at the cost of player experience, but those players have nowhere else to go, or feel that they don't. Some 'graduate' to Il-2 and DCS, but while I love both of those games (which isn't to say they don't have issues as well) their complexity often causes a WT player to 'rebound' back to WT because it's approachable.
Be the approachable game and they will approach. Make active and interesting content with YT and Streamers and they'll look. But continue losing them at the opening UI and the slow death will continue. You need young, fresh blood. People that understand how to use those systems (like social media) to get the name out. Heck, I would make the YT videos myself if I had a better internet connection.
Oh, and please don't let Dale argue semantics in the Steam discussion forums. There is nothing more heartbreaking than seeing a dev come into that pig pit and sling mud with people not interested in anything other than 'game bad :('
Either way, step 1 needs to be tied to the first step that any new player interacts with. The UI. At least, from my perspective of literally dragging in new folks and getting their direct feedback. I'll also happily agree that my amount of people is fairly low, only 5 total newbies, but every single one of them was very direct about the UI being 'past unapproachable.'
Edit: Typos :x
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 07:11:28 PM
Am I saying AH could do the same? Probably not, but UI matters.
[...]
"Was calling the game f2p a mistake on steam?"
I know that's not exactly how you worded it, but it is the essential question imo. The answer is quintessentially yes.
[...]
The thing to understand from WTs pay model is that they are the definition of a 'predatory developer', and the player base is even aware of it. So many of them want a game that doesn't feel the way WT does to play that they're willing to try all sorts of things.
Absolutely UI is important. 100% agreement. Especially that initial UI they see on start up. It should excite them and their imagination and sets the emotional tone of their experience.
The current UI is utilitarian, and in the airplane is a elegant solution to staying "in-world" while accessing various actions. It could use refinement as you pointed out. However, I wouldn't use it as the launch UI or the UI anytime not "in-simulation".
My point is that, IMHO, a lot of todays players downloading the game off Steam are not even getting far enough to evaluate the UI because they are hit with a dialog on start up that they feel pulls the F2P rug out from under them and the sale is already lost RIGHT THERE. Doesn't matter what UI you show after that. You've already lost the customer. You might have lost fewer if you had been allowed to list it as non-F2P, but I think the real answer is to add a F2P plane sub-set. I think that is how you slowly lure in subscribers nowadays.
It isn't that I feel listing the game as F2P was a mistake. I feel that not having added a F2P sub set of planes for the launch was the mistake.
I'm not saying that HTC should adopt all WT predatory practices. I wouldn't want to see micro-transactions or buying skins or funny hats for your pilot.
What I am saying is that the F2P planeset keeps them engaged longer and enough of them finally convinced to get a full subscription. I'm not suggesting grinding, but slowing luring them in to get all the planes, to get access to Special Events, to be able to pick their country and not get auto-switched (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406680.msg5386202.html#msg5386202 (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,406680.msg5386202.html#msg5386202)), etc. I think a subscription is too hard to squeeze out of players nowadays without getting a little more creative about it. What worked in 1999 is not necessarily working in 2023. I think WT found a way to get more players to a subscription by letting them have some planes they can play as long as they want.
In general though, I think we are 95% in agreement.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 07:21:34 PM
All of the players that I've brought with me in the last few days are younger WT players and long term ones at that, and every single one of them wants to sub asap.
Fenin, thank you. Glad we have all these new players; I wish each of us could bring in five.
I'm sure there are plenty of things that can be improved in AH, there always are. If I understand "UI" to mean "User Interface," which means "how do I start this thing?", then I'm with you. Nice big buttons that say "I would like to set up my game controllers," "I would like to fly a test mission," and "I would like to fly against other people now" might be useful.
- oldman
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 08:20:58 PM
I feel for Dale, but Match Play with prizes was never going to work. I've never seen any game that wasn't already absolutely blasting on pop get that concept to work realistically, and that includes WT (whose devs are constantly mocked for calling the game 'e-sports ready.')
I bet I can walk thru the mind of the average new player in that scenario but those numbers kind of speak for themselves. If 65% of people leave before even finding their way to the arena then the only thing they've gotten to interact with is the User Interface. Clearly the rest of the game behind it never even was opened before them. Ten minutes of being in the main arena tells another story, they're not being informed enough and clearly.
I'm sorry, I really am, but the pop out youtube videos are a dev-time trap, no one in my group has watched any of them and I seriously doubt we're outliers. Even I haven't watched them, but admittedly they weren't for a returning player. They hear the bass boom and shut it off immediately, they want nothing to do with it. They're literally the gaming equivalent of a pop up video ad on a website and cause knee jerk closing reactions. An oldschool 'online' help file would do better, or even a well sorted pdf. Though, I am likely saying that due to my time in the DCS community where most of us will quite happily sit down with flight manuals from devs or a third party and spend hours pouring over them to glean any information we can.
That 75% that have left before the 30 minute mark clearly never even got to try the actual game, it's pretty clear to me from my limited dataset that the UI is murderous because it's stopping player engagement BUT.
BUT. I am willing to admit that maybe it isn't, if its not, what other things in the first 30 minutes of software interaction could they have engaged with that would cause such massive offloading? There's the argument for the game being 'ugly,' which as much as I hate to say it sort of is. I recently opened a copy of 1998 Warbirds and I hate to say it but the stylized graphics they used are sort of timeless. Games like Tiny Combat Arena on Steam have started to realize that a put together visual experience often matters more than being photo realistic. Heck, even my wife thinks Rise of Flight still looks better than most DCS maps, and I agree with her.
You have to really put yourself in the shoes of a brand new player, who has never experienced any game like Aces High. Who didn't ride in thru the UI of Warbirds, or Fighter Ace (which was way more tortured!) or Air Warrior. I mean, lord have mercy. Lets look at Warbirds 2001s UI right now!
There's a design argument to be made that this is, 22 years old or not, more streamlined than the Kneeboard on the main page. It too could be streamlined more, but I think it starts to show 'what we've gotten used to' isn't always the best. Lets look deeper though!
Well, that's a pretty simple set of options. Many of which unsurprisingly are similar to our own. Can't imagine how that sort of happened. :neener: Lets go deeper still!
So, I'm cropping the next image to save some of my internet speed for folks running the slow stuff like myself, but I've selected 'Setup' now.
The Warbirds UI never goes deeper than a Primary -> Secondary functionality. Its UI is simple, but its clean and easy to flow thru. It's well named (which ours is as well) and clearly well thought out. I mean no insult when I say ours isn't well thought out, but it's clear from an outside perspective that its a bit of a mess. I imagine many of our old hands who were WB players could hop back into that older 2001 version of WB and have next to no culture shock for UI design.
More importantly, my silly ADHD self managed it at 11. Even now, showing it to the group I fly with they agree that its cleaner, the workflow is smoother. Sure, it is missing functionality that we have now, but they followed a very clear design setup for their UI. Nothing is ever more than 2 clicks away. That includes a help button that opens a (now defunct of course) Windows Online Help file!
Aces High quite single handedly beat the mess out of her sister games. There's no ifs and or buts of that. Warbirds and Fighter Ace had major issues as well, and Aces Highs gameplay was just so much better that it was beyond the pale, but the UI has been stretched on far too long in the tooth. Lessons were clearly learned from the WB team about gameplay, but I hate to say their UI design still has something to teach. :P
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 08:24:51 PM
Fenin, thank you. Glad we have all these new players; I wish each of us could bring in five.
I'm sure there are plenty of things that can be improved in AH, there always are. If I understand "UI" to mean "User Interface," which means "how do I start this thing?", then I'm with you. Nice big buttons that say "I would like to set up my game controllers," "I would like to fly a test mission," and "I would like to fly against other people now" might be useful.
- oldman
Sorry for double posting :) Yes sir, UI stands for User Interface and its the core level of how anyone interacts with Software generally speaking. Same goes for how you select files in windows, or interact with a website even. In some ways it's sort of the digital equivalent of the man-machine interface concept and I hate to say it but AHs UI needs help. Other things do as well, as I'm sure we're all aware, but without easing player onloading you'll never get the chance to correct the other issues.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Mongoose on January 12, 2023, 08:31:25 PM
All of the players that I've brought with me in the last few days are younger WT players and long term ones at that, and every single one of them wants to sub asap. I can tell you from their raw reactions that the biggest issue isn't the concept of the game (they quite literally feel that AH is everything WT Sim should be) it's the very, very clunky UI that causes them massive amounts of issues. They desperately love what I've put on the table for them, but they also admit the UI would have scared them off without me. So far my success rate of handholding them in is 5 out of 6.
This is a very important observation. So if the User Interface is the problem, how do we get past that without changing the user interface. Yes, the user interface should be updated. But that will take time if it ever happens. How do we get new players started with the current interface? Would a simple tutorial help?
I ask because I have done some work as a tech trainer. A few years ago I was working on recruiting some family and friends, and I wrote up a tutorial for the group. (Unfortunately only one of them was nuts enough to join the game, and he had to quit when his computer died). Having worked as a technical trainer, whenever something like this comes up, the trainer in me rears it's ugly head.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 08:40:15 PM
This is a very important observation. So if the User Interface is the problem, how do we get past that without changing the user interface. Yes, the user interface should be updated. But that will take time if it ever happens. How do we get new players started with the current interface? Would a simple tutorial help?
I ask because I have done some work as a tech trainer. A few years ago I was working on recruiting some family and friends, and I wrote up a tutorial for the group. (Unfortunately only one of them was nuts enough to join the game, and he had to quit when his computer died). Having worked as a technical trainer, whenever something like this comes up, the trainer in me rears it's ugly head.
A simple tutorial might help, naturally leading them in by hand is the best option (but also the most time consuming.)
Get those videos off, move the sound options to a reasonable place. Those are, or I would hope, be very good first steps. Next, as much as I know I've talked about streamlining we'd need to get a video library sorted and add one more button to the main options page. Someone with in depth knowledge of the game (or more than willing to ask before planning the video out), free time, and a good internet conection needs to make short videos in playlists that can have a button aimed at them.
The videos audio quality needs to be decent for their voice, these are baseline essentials. As funny as it is I'd strongly suggest a UK accented speaker, we Americans are still the highest pop (I suspect) and tend to eat that accent up like skittles. Whoever that takes the plunge needs to just accept from the word go that what they're doing is essentially volunteer work as well.
We've asked a lot out of Dale over the decades (go count the B-29 request threads from back in the day, I dare you :P ), the least any of us can do is not demand a paycheck for trying to save something we all love.
I'd even go so far as to reach out to someone like Enigma in the DCS community, you all found his video about the simming dark age and he's very receptive to Sim history. He might be willing to talk to someone, work something out. Communication has to be made. If need be, I can go ask him myself.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 08:47:23 PM
And the dialog informing them the game isn't F2P as they feel they were led to believe.
Yeah I... I have no answer for this. It's literal suffering. Change the games desc on steam. Make it as clear as possible. That's about all there is to that one. The best you can do is inform, I think changing to f2p would be software suicide. I would much rather see Aces High die the slow death than try to pull the predatory development path of 'tiered aircraft unlocks' or 'skin purchases.'
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 12, 2023, 09:12:57 PM
Yeah I... I have no answer for this. It's literal suffering. Change the games desc on steam. Make it as clear as possible. That's about all there is to that one. The best you can do is inform, I think changing to f2p would be software suicide. I would much rather see Aces High die the slow death than try to pull the predatory development path of 'tiered aircraft unlocks' or 'skin purchases.'
Couple of points just to make sure I made my case clearly. It's late and my brain is shutting down ;)....
I stated in another reply that I don't want to see the grinding unlocks and decorative micro transactions. That part of WT they can keep.
I'm not suggesting making the whole game F2P.
I'm suggesting that the Melee arena have a small sub-set of aircraft that are F2P by players who have not opened full accounts yet. After your two week trial where you can try all the planes, you then fall back to only being able to fly the F2P planes. But you are still in the arena. You are still providing activity, player count, and a target so the arenas don't look so empty so often. It gives you a chance to learn the game over a longer time and there would be incentives to eventually break down and subscribe. And if you don't, you are at least able to help keep the area populated. The marginal cost of the bandwidth for F2P'er is minimal and at least your "Massively Multiplayer Online Game" doesn't end up looking like a deserted ghost town. How good of a impression does it make to a potential customer to see only 39 players in the arena?
side note:
I was thinking a few minutes ago (dangerous I know), another incentive you might could give a new play to upgrade to a subscription is that you don't get to have your own name until then. F2P'er could just be assigned a guid. Like "Player2034". When you transition to paying customer, you get to actually choose a handle.
If you got 40,000 trial downloads and virtually no subscriptions, I have to think there are larger problems than just an awkward UI. It definitely needs to be improved, but I think there are other core deal breakers that have to be addressed or you will never move the needle.
But of course none of that will happen anyway. So we're jsut debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. ;)
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 12, 2023, 09:30:25 PM
Couple of points just to make sure I made my case clearly. It's late and my brain is shutting down ;)....
I stated in another reply that I don't want to see the grinding unlocks and decorative micro transactions. That part of WT they can keep.
I'm not suggesting making the whole game F2P.
I'm suggesting that the Melee arena have a small sub-set of aircraft that are F2P by players who have not opened full accounts yet. After your two week trial where you can try all the planes, you then fall back to only being able to fly the F2P planes. But you are still in the arena. You are still providing activity, player count, and a target so the arenas don't look so empty so often. It gives you a chance to learn the game over a longer time and there would be incentives to eventually break down and subscribe. And if you don't, you are at least able to help keep the area populated. The marginal cost of the bandwidth for F2P'er is minimal and at least your "Massively Multiplayer Online Game" doesn't end up looking like a deserted ghost town. How good of a impression does it make to a potential customer to see only 39 players in the arena?
side note:
I was thinking a few minutes ago (dangerous I know), another incentive you might could give a new play to upgrade to a subscription is that you don't get to have your own name until then. F2P'er could just be assigned a guid. Like "Player2034". When you transition to paying customer, you get to actually choose a handle.
If you got 40,000 trial downloads and virtually no subscriptions, I have to think there are larger problems than just an awkward UI. It definitely needs to be improved, but I think there are other core deal breakers that have to be addressed or you will never move the needle.
But of course none of that will happen anyway. So we're jsut debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. ;)
Oh for sure, the maps list needs to be heavily culled and redesigned. Some of the maps we have are even still fantastic, but need smaller versions. Focus the remaining players down and the action will get more serious as result, then you'll still have the old maps if pop ever jumps up. I would like to learn to use the mapping tool, it quite literally can't be any worse than the garbage map maker for the game I've dev'd for for half a decade plus is.
I'm reeeaaaalllly not sold on Free to play being a good fix, my bigger concern though is that 15$ means a lot less in 2023 than it did in 2001. I'm honestly terrified of it going up, personally. That would be a big straw on the camels old back, but surely that won't happen.
Arena pop of late has been okay, but I have to basically forget the days of 400~ people all tooling around like maniacs. The less I think of that, the less I remember how good 'it was' and the more I take in how it's still good now the better. Even the Open Source game I dev for would have a server (and a few do) rock it hard at 100 people on. My own server barely gets 35~ at the highest pop times of the day. I won't go into more detail on the game, suffice it to say its not flight sim related and the population is often pretty awful people. But I do have a volunteer staff of around 15~ people who develop freely. Basically my job is to wrangle cats that I don't pay when it comes to that.
I will say I'm a strong advocate for open source, but seeing as how I'm also an advocate for people making a living I don't think that's a good option either. Though, I would beg Dale that if the doors do ever close to please, please, please, please put everything he can into an atleast semi-open lisence on Github and let those that come after do what they can. For the love of god do not let the lineage of Air Warrior/Warbirds/Aces High disappear.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 13, 2023, 11:33:23 AM
I'm reeeaaaalllly not sold on Free to play being a good fix,
Well, rest easy. It won't happen, nor will anything else.
(The following is IMHO. but I'm not going to put it after every sentence...) I still maintain it is now probably the best approach to try and coax users into subscribing. It's a different market than it was in 1999. New expectations have been set by games like WT. Players want a F2P sub-set of planes that they can play forever even if they don't subscribe. I believe that the vast majority of WT subscribers probably started out thinking they would never subscribe. I bet they were thinking, "Ohhhh. I'll fool them. I'll just stick with the free stuff and never subscribe! " WT says, "No problem. Have fun and enjoy the free planes as long as you want." And bit by bit, day by day, they keep showing them all the cools stuff they could have if they just subscribed. Eventually they break down and say, "Oh WTH. I really want all the other stuff so I guess I will subscribe." At least enough of them over time to fund continued new development. If you had given them an ultimatum in the first minute of them interacting with you they will just give you the finger and go elsewhere. We all know AH has it's charms. But it might take months of playing to start to recognized their full depth. Come to think of it, I played the beta for months before HTC started charging. By the time they were starting to charge I was all in. Not sure how I would have reacted to a two week ultimatum.
I think in the current gaming market, the "two week trial then subscribe or f'off" approach is as obsolete as the "pay per hour" model was when HTC decided to innovate with a flat rate.
But it doesn't matter anyway. I think new development is now off the table (per HTC's New Years announcement). Breaking bug fixes, player made maps, player made skins, player made terrains, and player run events are all you can expect from here on. ;)
Quote
For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.
:salute
Oh, and sorry for hijacking your thread Eagler. I'm done now. ;)
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Eagler on January 13, 2023, 11:56:22 AM
If it is productive back and forth I do not consider it hijacked
Hoping HT changes his mind on day and offers a f2p planeset but I got the feeling he doesn't want a bunch of non paying customers whining like his pay subs do now :azn:
Eagler
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: The Fugitive on January 13, 2023, 03:52:25 PM
If it is productive back and forth I do not consider it hijacked
Hoping HT changes his mind on day and offers a f2p planeset but I got the feeling he doesn't want a bunch of non paying customers whining like his pay subs do now :azn:
Eagler
I know Hitech hates posting to the boards because he gets bombarded with replies/questions when ever he does post something...... but I wish he would post an explanation to why he doesnt think a F2P plane set in the MA wont help at all. Maybe it wont bring in new subs, but even if it doesnt it still add population to the arenas Thats a plus as more targets and it makes the numbers in population "look" better. Even if it only converted 3% of the free players that better than the last report of conversion numbers we got.
As for cost, I cant see where it will cost HTC any more due to the fact that the servers and systems are already in place and I would think its paid for by the current subs.
Its too bad he doesnt want to do it. For a bit of coad work it could atleast bring in some players looking for the "free ride", and get us some more players, even if they dont stay around.
And to sweeten the pot, do a relaunch on Steam advertising the free planes set, New Maps, and a top notch VR system second to none.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: nrshida on January 14, 2023, 01:20:29 AM
Hitech posted stats one time. I don't have the link handy, but from memory that out of the thousands and thousands that downloaded the trial during the Steam launch, the significant majority didn't stay 30 min and most never got off the runway.
There was no data about getting off the runway. When AH went to Steam it was using a catastrophic non-usertested interface for non-joystick users (of which the percentage was high). It linked controls and view in a puke-inspiring manner. That was possibly a significant contributor to people not sticking around.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Bopgun on January 14, 2023, 08:24:56 AM
How about F2P dive bombers. VAL JU87 Sbd, give the hangar queens new life.
Edit Typo
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: TWCAxew on January 14, 2023, 09:07:04 AM
If it was my company I would think this is an great idea :aok
Here is a different reply from Hitech.
I find his argument weak. He makes some assertions about why he thinks a F2P sub-set of planes wouldn't help. Yet he has not explained why such a model has been so successful in games like WT.
Worse case is that none of those F2P'ers would subscribe. But maybe you'd still have a more populated arena so that the players that are paying can have a better gameplay experience with a populated arena with planes to shoot at instead of an endless commute on auto pilot to increasingly harder to find fights. Maybe that makes the arena look more appealing to potential customers. It's the best\cheapest AI you will ever implement. ;)
More F2P'ers mean more people possibly telling their friends about the game. Some of those other friends might subscribe. That's the cheapest advertising you'll ever buy. ;)
Doesn't matter. Being in charge doesn't make you right, but it does give you the last say. It's his money.
I find his argument weak. He makes some assertions about why he thinks a F2P sub-set of planes wouldn't help. Yet he has not explained why such a model has been so successful in games like WT.
Worse case is that none of those F2P'ers would subscribe. But maybe you'd still have a more populated arena so that the players that are paying can have a better gameplay experience with a populated arena with planes to shoot at instead of an endless commute on auto pilot to increasingly harder to find fights. Maybe that makes the arena look more appealing to potential customers. It's the best\cheapest AI you will ever implement. ;)
More F2P'ers mean more people possibly telling their friends about the game. Some of those other friends might subscribe. That's the cheapest advertising you'll ever buy. ;)
Doesn't matter. Being in charge doesn't make you right, but it does give you the last say. It's his money.
I see where he's coming from, clearly the issue is not the planeset if 65% of players never even leave the main screen. Those players would likely never even realize there were free to play planes. Those are people who are leaving before even getting a chance to realistically interact with the software. It's no different than opening something like Foobar, not liking what you have in front of you, and closing it again to use something you know and trust more (Winamp, in this example :P ) Even if Foobar offers benefits you don't realize you're missing it's simply because something immediately put you off. Customers, especially paying ones, can be very very finicky when they have lots of options.
Which, I'd argue they don't have lots of options at all. Take the Pacific Theater of WW2 combat aviation. As it sits right this moment their only options are 1) War Thunder, 2) Il-2 1946, 3) Aces High III, and 4) Warbiiiiirrrds (okay, I had to, lets be real. Steam Warbirds is way more dead than AH3.)
1) WT offers a huge playset, but next to no 'depth' to its gameplay for the average player, this is by design. 2) Il-2 1946 is aged, but still quite active with its modding community. 3) We offer depth of play, but have other issues like lack of non-playing community awareness, and UI difficulties. 4) Hahahaha, Warbirds was dead in like 2006 when I finally got the chance to try and join these communities the first time. I'm amazed it exists in any form. (Though, I'd love to tear into its source code and play with some of it. Especially the much older codes. :x )
The closest we have to a Pacific WW2 aviation experience that isn't Il-2 1946 or AH3 is the F4U Corsair being added to DCS at some point in the future, which will have some secondary stuff that's very interesting buuuuut sort of vibes in the abyss like many other DCS modules do with not enough secondary bits to make an interesting scenario. Unless you call shooting down 190As painted like IJN/IJA Aircraft 'interesting.' :uhoh
Though... I shouldn't talk, it's not like this community hasn't ever unloaded the cannons from a zero and pretended they were Ki-43s in scenarios before the Ki-43 got added.
I'm tangenting hard. A development strategy has to start somewhere to move forward, I hope Dale is working towards something ultimately.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 15, 2023, 09:07:02 AM
I see where he's coming from, clearly the issue is not the planeset if 65% of players never even leave the main screen. Those players would likely never even realize there were free to play planes.
What the realize is they've just been shown a dialog stating they will be limited to two week trial and then must pay a $14.95. Not being able to continue to play with a limited F2P planes like WT would let them.
Boom. Lost sale.
Why should I even bother to look further? Why bother to configure my stick or waste time learning arcane dot commands? Or wander an empty map? Most players probably start out thinking they would never agree to a subscription. Most WT subscribers probably thought that too.
Never give a potential customer and excuse to say no. Giving them an ultimatum is a perfect excuse for them to just give you the finger and uninstall.
Again, go to Steam, filter the review to negative only and read. Dated graphics, low player count, confusing UI are all in there. But it seemed to me no F2P level only a two week trial and then subscription was the biggest common complaint I saw.
Menu reorganization would be helpful, but it seems to me something more fundamental would have to be changed to alter the current market rejection.
Which won't happen. I don't believe your menu changes will either.
AH has reached an evolutionary cul-de-sac. Hospice mode. No real improvement is likely. It's a matter of just trying to keep the remaining customers as comfortable as possible until the inevitable end comes.
Enjoy the skin batch releases.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Spikes on January 15, 2023, 09:47:43 AM
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 15, 2023, 10:09:41 AM
Prove him wrong Spikes. Unfortunately I think he is hitting pretty close to the mark. When Kenai's recent european map was released I was hoping Hitech had turned his attention back to the game, but so far we havent seen anything other than the standard skin releases.
:(
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Spikes on January 15, 2023, 01:08:12 PM
Get over what? I don't think anybody really disagrees with you. But do you ever think that perhaps HT is content with the product he has created and doesn't want all of these changes people are suggesting?
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: CptTrips on January 15, 2023, 01:37:16 PM
But do you ever think that perhaps HT is content with the product he has created and doesn't want all of these changes people are suggesting?
I absolutely believe that. Exactly so.
That is exactly why I don't think there is any more innovation in AH's future. That is exactly why I don't think there is any chance of HTC challenging long held assumptions about monetization models, or two-sides, or anything else. That is exactly why I don't think there is any chance of nightly players numbers increasing back above 250 again. That is exactly why I don't think there be very many Squeakers coming on to replace lost comrades and continue with a new generation.
We're now on a terminal glide slope. If you are not willing to change anything, then I don't see how you change the outcome. And that might be acceptable. ;)
I think you will continue to get breaking bug fixes. I think you will continue to get minor tweaks to configurations. I think you might get a Vulcan engine. Not sure what that will do. I think you will continue to get player made content like skins and terrains. I think you will continue to have player run events. I think you will continue to have a slowly declining player count until you reach some colony-collapse threshold.
:rofl I love the reoccuring Ms. Swan character. You could NEVER get away with that today. No network would touch with a 10 foot pole! :rofl
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Fenin on January 15, 2023, 05:29:44 PM
Get over what? I don't think anybody really disagrees with you. But do you ever think that perhaps HT is content with the product he has created and doesn't want all of these changes people are suggesting?
Because hope is on our end when there's no active clear development, denying communication feels awful for us as customers and players. We want to know what's going on, and in view of lacking that information we chatter about what we hope is going on.
Every single one of us wants AH to be better, not a single player who has ever put in their two weeks, months, years, decades or otherwise undisclosed period of time wants to see the game slowly keel over and capsize. Even if it takes years for it to do so. It is only natural to assume that the person who has put in the topmost level of hope and time directly into the experience would feel the same, but to an even higher degree.
I know I have for the open source stuff I've been team lead on, watching my first server run out of steam after 5 years was heartbreaking. Watching my own community start to disappear into the night made me miserable. We're not to the end yet with Aces High, not at all, but it's visible. It's clear that if massive change doesn't happen then the path doesn't change. I learned hard last year that you just have to get up and keep trying, and I'm very glad I did.
Now, I can absolutely respect Dale being 'done.' The concept wouldn't be surprising in any way shape or form. He's been up to this type of game for a very long time, especially if you include the time spent on stuff before Aces High. The issue that I personally have is that I'm afraid the source code and dev tools will languish on a hard drive and become lost media at some point in the next few years and no one wants to see that, but I probably feel that way because I'm exactly the type to want to chew into it and look around and figure out how it works.
Aces High has also proven quite capable of being something that can withstand the test of time though, which is irrefutable imo since we're all still here chatting about it so long after its original release that the kids born on its release date have a high percentage chance to have their own kids now. :P
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: potsNpans on January 16, 2023, 06:22:34 PM
I would like to see a a three tier rotation, Earl, Mid, and Late. Plus 1 on OP.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: Oldman731 on January 16, 2023, 08:16:33 PM
That too. I was thinking more player created arenas, but the AvA would probably work better. It might even allow scoring to be logged then??
I would assume it has logging and scores.
The issue is if they are willing to run it and if it would be too much trouble to switch back and forth for MNM and TN. But really couldn't MNM and TN simply be moved to special events arenas because that is really what they are?
Also, maybe the AVA setup won't work well. If you think you'd need all planes for both sides then you would need a separate arena. Do you think the mid-war plane-set is sufficiently balanced to constrain to AVA?
I'm not sure you would have the best luck with a custom arena. Something about merely being on another tab makes things invisible to players I think. Unless they are going specifically to Special Events for a scheduled thing.
$0.02.
Title: Re: Mid War planeset enabled maps in ma rotation
Post by: whiteman on January 17, 2023, 09:53:15 AM