Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on January 28, 2004, 07:30:03 AM
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Rather bizzare case happened in New York City.
Two policemen are oon a routine patrol of the municipal housing projects (poor people housing) at night. They are on the rooftop of a 15 storey(?) building.
The door to the rooftop opens. One of the policemen, who for some reason had his gun drawn and ready, shoots the guy in the doorway dead. That happened to be one of the three black teenagers coming out to the roof for a stroll of whatever.
The policemen is an 11 year veteran with a good record. His partner says he did not have time to see anything or react since his view was blocked by the door and it was over immediately. The shooter himself says he does not clearly remember how he shot the victim since it happened so fast and unexpectedly.
The expected amount of political feeding frenzy ensues. The parents are out for blood - which is understandable.
The black "leadership" is back to police-bashing.
The commissioner calls the shooting "unjustified".
The Police Benevolent Association slams the commissioner for issung conclusions before the investigation.
According to the police (PBA), the housing projects are so dangerous that it is not unusual for a policemen to walk with a gun drawn and ready and to be in a constant fear of attack. Plenty of people end up dead at night in the projects.
I am kind of inclined to believe the police and side up with teh PBA here. The guy clearly did not have time to think or prepare or collude with his partner for any kind of a police abuse.
It seems that if an 11-year veteran thought that a weapon should be drawn and ready to shoot on a routine patrol, he knew what he was doing. It may tell something about local conditions but they are hardly his fault. Also, in the dark, especially if a person is tired, one can see a lot of things that are not there and act before he realises what is really there.
I sure hope that the guy will not end up in jail though his policing days are probably over.
One thought though is nagging me with regard to the PBA. If a civilian - maybe even black housing resident - with a legally-registered weapon was on the roof and the door opened and that civilian had shot and killed a person in a doorway - say a policeman coming out for a routine roof patrol. Would the PBA be as restrained and concerned about his rights and fairness and insistent that it is normal for people to be scared for their life in the projects and that the whole thing is likely an unfortunate accident?
miko
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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
But anyway, they should not have been in a position to be surprised. Nor should he have reacted so violently to something he does not know.
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being in the projects is good enough reason to be in fear of his life in my opinion. I don't know what the situation looked like but just having a door open seems like not a good reason to fire.
guys nerves must be shot... understandable in a crime ridden city like New york.
If concealed carry laws were more realistic in new york city then crime would go down and the cops wouldn't be so jumpy.
lazs
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"If concealed carry laws were more realistic in new york city then crime would go down and the cops wouldn't be so jumpy."
Exactly. Then we wouldn't have to worry about all those law abiding citizens in the projects carrying guns around at night. They would just acknowledge the law and leave their firearms at home like good little soldiers.
Cougar
(edit: I think I might have missed your point Lazs. I assumed you were saying that NY needs to tighten up concealed carry to get guns out of the criminals hands. In retrospect I believe you're saying they need to loosen it up, correct?)
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gee cougar... so far... that hasn't been the case. concealed carry laws reduce crime more in urban areas even more than they do in suburban ones. further.... concealed carry permit holders are not now nor ever have been a danger to the public or police... quite the oppossite.. I know this flys in the face of what you "feel" and what the liberal media tells you but it is fact.
I would suggest that you read professor John Lotts excellent book "More Guns Less Crime" it is the best study ever done on the effects of firearms and concealled carry ever done. He has debated every critic of his book into the ground... it is allmost pitiful to watch the rabid, uninformed anti gunners go after him.
oh... yes, like lott, I am saying that right to carry would reduce crime in New York city.
lazs
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Read my edit Lazs :) I think we're agreeing here, hehe.
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A lethal reaction to a door opening is not justified. Simply put, a Police Officer has a duty to identify a target as definately dangerous BEFORE launching a round. Shooting a person exiting a door just because the door opened unexpectedly is insufficeint justification for that level of force absent a definate hazardous situation such as a drug raid on a known stash house where suspects are expected to resist the search warrant with weapons.
Sad that the situation happened but the Officer is toast in this situation. Unless there is a LOT more that to this situation that has not been listed yet.
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Tough to have an opinion without a full investigation.
A shooting in the middle of the night in a poor housing area because a door opened is hardly enough information to make a decision on the acceptability of the actions.
I am surprised he would carry his weapon drawn. I think Id conclude that there was a reason it was drawn - a preceived threat of some sort - no cop walks around on a 'routine patrol' with his pistol out - regardless of the neighborhood.
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Saurdaukar: I am surprised he would carry his weapon drawn. I think Id conclude that there was a reason it was drawn - a preceived threat of some sort.
So far there has been no mention of prior radio communications specifying that the officers were in some kind of an unusual situation.
From an interview I heard on the radio with some policeman who's name I did not get, "one second you are routinely walking on the rooftop and the next second you may be flying off the 15 storey building..." or something. Which indicates to me that the "routine" situation really is quite dangerous.
A really bizzare case - especially considering that violent crime has dropped a lot in New York City. Of course it is mostly concentrated in just such projects, so the general drop may not be indicative of the danger in that particular spot. But the population at large will hardly grasp the distinction and will imagine the trigger-happy policemen crawling with gun's draw through their own quiet neighbourhoods... That guy is likely a toast and probably several careers of his superiors.
miko
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I think MAV summed it up fairly well. just bvecause you wear a badge doesn't give you the right to shoot at whatever moves without some sort of reason.
if this is the whole story the guy fluffied up.
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Maverick: Simply put, a Police Officer has a duty to identify a target as definately dangerous BEFORE launching a round.
Mav, as an experienced LE officer, could you please tell us if the policemen coming out for patrol have to comply with some kind of sleep/rest regulation like truck drivers and pilots do?
From my own experience patrolling at night one sees all kinds of apparitions that prove to be nothing but the product of imagination. And that is when rested and sober.
Once one is tired or a bit sleepy, the "daydreaming" can produce extremely realistic images of stunning reality - seeing something that is not there or not seeing something that is there - all that while continuing to walk and interact with a terrain that requires attention, so there is no indication that one is any less that fully awake.
I bet one can even pull out and arm a weapon while daydreaming for some reason that cannot be recalled once a person is fully awake.
miko
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There are no "rules" like truck drivers regarding how much sleep you have to get before duty. The department likely WILL have a regulation stating the Officer must be ready and able to perform duty. There will be wage and hour regs regarding how much duty can be assigned such as the 40 hour work week and no 48 hour straight shifts. There are double shifts that happen during shift rotations at time, IE. when you are going from mids to days but they are only 16 hours straight. The supervisor is required to inspect all Officers for readiness for duty prior to them going out on the street. (In my department anyhow) A briefing and or inspection is pretty normal in major departments.
If the Officer is so fatigued that he is seeing things it is a mitigating circumstance for the plaintiff NOT the Officer. In other words it works against the Officer in this case. It would be a clear failure on the part of the Officer to excercise due care and caution in performance of duty if he worked while incapacitated in that manner. Now if he suffered an injury during a struggle prior to launching the round it would be different but only in that a hostile action was ALREADY taking place and he could show clear threat to his life because of it. This isn't the case as presented.
The situation, as presented at the start of the thread, does not provide any information justifying the shooting. There may be something missing here but if the above situation is factually correct and complete the Officer is history and likely to face severe jail time.
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Officer involved shootings are always a touchy subject.
Regardless of if the shooting was justified, someone will always be out for blood. In this situation, we don't have any evidence that there was a threat present. But an 11-year veteran usually does not go around shooting doors that open. He must have had a reason. There must be, because I don't think an 11 year veteran just shoots someone because he can. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's the case...
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never mind, just found the story
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Man, I'm kinda torn as to how I think that kinda thing should be dealt with.
Accidental shooting? Lose his job, pay big time and serious community and family service. But if it was accidental I dont think jail time is quite right, not with the stress and bull puckey those guys have to put up with.
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BS.
Look how trivially this young man's life is being treated. There is NO EXCUSE for shooting someone for walking through a door in THEIR building. This cop may have simply made a trajic error, but if he had taken a life with his car through improper usage he would be facing manslaughter at least.
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Does Criminal Intent play a big part in American Law?
Anyone?
I watch too much Law and Order I guess :confused:
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if those are the facts of the case from the story than the officer was in the wrong and will probably do time. He killed somone though negligence.
On the flip side. I wish the black community had as much out cry when a young kid is shot and killed all the time not jsut when a white officer does it. Maybe if they could control their own a little better incidents like this wouldnt happen.
(side note: My above comment is not intended to be derogitory. It is meant to reflect all the times we hear in the news about a black kid getting shot/beat up by a white guy. Statistically this is a small occurence compared to total violence that happens in these types of communities)
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If cops are that nervous when they patrol these buildings then they should send more than two of them. Six cops may feel less vulnerable, and therefore be less likely to blast anything that moves.
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Well I have just figured out a use for the military.
Patrolling the inner cities.
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Originally posted by Ping
Well I have just figured out a use for the military.
Patrolling the inner cities.
Unconstitutional in the US.
Is that the only use you can come up with for the military?
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Shovelling snow?
For the humour impaired this is refering to T O being helped out by the Military
http://www.cbc.ca/mondayreport/backissues_jan12.html#kabul
view the video Greetings from Kabul.
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ra: If cops are that nervous when they patrol these buildings then they should send more than two of them. Six cops may feel less vulnerable, and therefore be less likely to blast anything that moves.
How about having them patrol the nice neighbourhoods like mine where people like and respect them - and pay their salaries.
If military wishes to use the projects for urban maneuver practice - like military surgeons use it for practice of the gunshot wound treatments, they have my blessing.
miko
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He just forgot to sprinkle some crack on him.
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I tend to support cops in most situations, but I can't support this guy shooting just because he was startled. Before shooting, a cop needs to be sure of his tartget and the threat it presents. This guy just shot as a reaction to being startled, and I wouldn't call it an accident.
dago