Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: Fencer51 on June 24, 2007, 05:27:07 PM
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I have been in three scenarios and in each both sides flew short every frame.
In AirWarrior we overbooked the scenarios because we expect people to not show, loose interest and have family emergencies occur.
Why does AH limit the registration to the maximum number of fliers? Why not over book by 20 or 30 percent or even 40 percent and let the CO's and their staffs handle the assignments and coordination.
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Fencer, we don't "limit" them.
We open registration with limits to keep the sides registering evenly, and always increase the limits when the interest is there. But, the interest has to be there. It doesn't do any good to open up registration with 400 per side, only to have 300 join up Allies and 100 Axis. So, we would do something like 100-100 then as they get close to filling, increase to 150-150, and so on.
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Well when I tried to join Husky I was told the axis side was full. I believe the same was true of BoB when some people tried to join.
So obviously it was not done on Husky. And before you say it, the Allies were full too. So you once the slots were filled the registration did not advance.
Also you should enable the ability for squadrons to register as groups to fill a certain number of slots. That way they can internally adjust their attendance. If you give people the guarranteed ability to fly with the buddies I think you will get more solid attendance.
I think you CMs try and orchestrate the whole scenario too much (on numerous levels). Let the sides fill up naturally, people will migrate to the sides with a good balance.
As far as that goes, don't enable the BBs until 2 weeks before the event. If sides are uneven, then ask for volunteers to move to the other, and if that isnt going to happen, limit the number of the one side accordingly.
A staff can recruit people and generate interest. A good scenario can do likewise. You need to recruit COs way in advance to allow them time to get their sides in order and get people ready for the event.
But I am digressing. Back on topic.
We are constantly short on people each and every frame. In BoB we had 14 people who registered never even show up at all, let alone those who were in and out over the course of the event.
Something has to be done, your current system is not working.
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The reason Husky's population wasn't raised is I believe the last slots on both teams didn't fill up till give or take 3 days before the scenario started. The interest for Husky was just not at the point it needed to be to up the player caps if they where to of upped the cap to lets say 150 120. Most of the players might have signed up for the Allies, then there would not of been time to even the numbers out before the frame causing a large influx of players to one side or the other.
To say the system isnt working I believe is a bad way of stating it. Even if the CMs for Husky put the numbers at 150/120 that still doesn't meen any more would show up then they did in the frames. The CMs cant control if the players that sign up show up or not, thats up to the players them self.
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The lesson might also be that the CMs made a very accurate assessment of the interest and nailed it with the number of slots they made available.
So next time a scenario is offered, you might think about making sure you sign up early to guarantee your slot. :aok
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Its not about my getting a slot, I did and would not have had a problem if I could not have gotten one. I would have just walked on, as you can guarrantee that there are 20 to 30 spots open on each side.
So Easycor, nice try but that is not what I am talking about.
It is about flying 30 people short on each side frame after frame. When you have a balanced scenario and plane sets made to achieve certain goals, it makes the scenario unbalanced when you then have to play short.
And it is broken. The fact that the sides at game time are short indicate that.
Now if the CMs are trying to have a little group here then fine, but I thought the purpose was to increase attendance and fill the scenarios.
The registration was 126 for Allied and 96 for Axis.
Frame 1 attendance was 79 Allied / 61 Axis
Frame 2 attendance was 96 Allied / 72 Axis
Frame 3 attendance was 87 Allied / 60 axis
Looks like we were 30 to 45 short for the Allies and 25 to 35 short for the Axis each frame.
How do you fix that? You get more people registered to play and they will fill the slots.
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Fencer, you need to spend some time at this end trying to get people registered to begin with. That in itself is hard, now after that, we can't force them to show. That's up to the CO to attract and keep his people.
Every scenario, including the ones I attended before becoming a CM were a nightmare and nail biter to get people to commit to the event in advance.
There is also a line that must be drawn so the COs can work with a Known Quantity. They have to plan as well. So they will agree to lock the registration down so they can begin, and then have a contingency plan in place for the walkons.
As you show in your numbers, people did register. Now, I'm not clear on After they registered, how the CMs might force them to show up. If you have a suggestion, you know I'll listen, but frankly your own numbers show that it's really not our problem. What good, exactly, would it do to have allowed a larger registration? Do you know the timetable to get Those slots filled to begin with? Last Minute is when we got to those registered numbers. If in the last few days we reached 126/96 what good would it have done to have 250/200 slots opened? What would you have done if we opened the door with 250/200 and 200 went allied and 76 went Axis? Forced people to change? We'd be Exactly were we were now, attendance wise, except we'd have a good number of people ticked that they were forced to move.
It isn't quite as nice and tidy as one might think, it's not simple. How about we try this, keep the registration as it is and perhaps the COs might RETAIN through communication a tad better. Other than that, I don't see one thing that suggests simply upping the reg numbers would have done squat to change the attendance.
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As the one who wrote the code for the registration system, I know that it can only do so much. The purpose of the system is to get a list of names, emails, and contact information so that the scenario CO/XO can then communicate with his or her side. The system does have a spot to indicate which frames a player can commit to, but that is a bit tough when registration is 2 months before the event. It's about communication.
I didn't look, but did any of those players who signed up indicate frame attendance? If so does it match some of the observed numbers?
I don't fly scenarios due to the timing of them and my priorities as a family man. The one scenario I did fly in I found to have poor communications. Granted this was 3+ years ago, so things have probably changed.
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ROC,
Please don't think that I am attacking the CMs especially yourself.
What I am saying is that in AW we had an over booking of the slots.
We have a shortage on game day here in AH2.
Why not try and over book?
You get people who sign up knowing they are going to only be in one frame (ahem :lol ) and they take the slot for the other two. There are countless other examples on WHY the COs themselves cannot make people show any more that the CMs can.
Maybe you guys are designing the scenarios too large?
Dunno, but it can be pure heck as a CO trying to plan when you KNOW you are going to be down 1/3 at least at kickoff. It limits options effects gameplay. Bet Gaidin wishes he had those 30 guys yesterday when he was trying to cover all Sicily from 8 Sectors away.
If 200 went Allied and 76 went Axis you would explain that only "X" number of people were going to start per side based upon the lowest side. You open up registration to allow people to switch (you probably don't have that option now) and then you limit the people based upon the date of sign up. People are not noobs (well most) and they understand that a balance must be struck.
But until you do allow the large registration you are not going to find out.
Again I suggest a squadron registration option.
Also I suggest you take a hard look at the numbers from the last 4 scenarios and see just how understrength the events were. Adjust your next scenarions to allow for that or overbook to allow for it. One or the other.
Cheers
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Originally posted by forHIM
As the one who wrote the code for the registration system, I know that it can only do so much. The purpose of the system is to get a list of names, emails, and contact information so that the scenario CO/XO can then communicate with his or her side. The system does have a spot to indicate which frames a player can commit to, but that is a bit tough when registration is 2 months before the event. It's about communication.
I didn't look, but did any of those players who signed up indicate frame attendance? If so does it match some of the observed numbers?
I don't fly scenarios due to the timing of them and my priorities as a family man. The one scenario I did fly in I found to have poor communications. Granted this was 3+ years ago, so things have probably changed.
I stepped up for BoB Allied and assigned the people to squadrons so I saw what the registration forms allows. I also did a check in on the boards and emailed those that did not check in.
I got nothing from them. We started out 14 short and only one of those actually did show up during any of the 3 frames. Then we had normal wastage of no shows, computer problems, people quitting etc.
Trouble was there was no pool of others to take up the slack.
Maybe you allow a reserve registration to indicate interest and give the COs a pool to pull from?
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Fencer, I know you aren't attacking anyone, and also that I appreciate your involvement and ideas :)
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Some of your ideas I think would work great, like when someone registers have something where they can say which frames they will be able to attend, another is allowing them to pick a squad to register to when they sign up so say you and some of your squad mates are signing up you can be sure you'll get to fly together. As for upping the number of slots for the registration that would have done nothing as someone else mentioned it didn't fill up until a few days before it started, so upping the number of slots might have only allowed a hand full of more players to register.
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Originally posted by trax1
Some of your ideas I think would work great, like when someone registers have something where they can say which frames they will be able to attend, another is allowing them to pick a squad to register to when they sign up so say you and some of your squad mates are signing up you can be sure you'll get to fly together. As for upping the number of slots for the registration that would have done nothing as someone else mentioned it didn't fill up until a few days before it started, so upping the number of slots might have only allowed a hand full of more players to register.
It used to be this way but no one signed for bombers, particularly Ju88s and Bostons but even B-26s. COs started shifting people into bombers and they didn't show because it wasn't what they signed up for. This way that argument is gone and they can still decline when the CO asks them to take a less desireable ride and in this way they're far more likely to attend.
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Its hard to compare AW with AH.
In AW the scenarios when they happened was a breath of fresh air and it attracted alot of folks wanting a change of pace. Maybe the age groups were older and more apt to put the effort into a scenario. Not knocking all the yout hhere as many have the interest in scenarios.
In AH there is alot more variety, and maybe the hunger isnt so high to see alot of people flying together on a mission.
Im not sure what it is, but it is different.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Its hard to compare AW with AH.
In AW the scenarios when they happened was a breath of fresh air and it attracted alot of folks wanting a change of pace. Maybe the age groups were older and more apt to put the effort into a scenario. Not knocking all the yout hhere as many have the interest in scenarios.
In AH there is alot more variety, and maybe the hunger isnt so high to see alot of people flying together on a mission.
Im not sure what it is, but it is different.
Other than Stalins 4th, which had a very tight ground/capture component, it seems that scenarios that involve the land grab just dont generate the interest like the ones involving pure air combat.
Looking back on the past four scenarios the only one that DIDN'T involve the capute component was the Battle of Britain, and not suprising that was the one I had the most fun flying in.
Oh well guess we are on to a new style of scenarios...
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There are two problems with attendence: (1) flaky players who sign up but never show up and (2) lack of larger numbers of people who want to play scenarios.
For planning, we should probably just flat out tell CO's to plan all their missions on 2/3 of the number registered.
There isn't too much difference between registering N people and telling CO's to plan for using 2/3 * N on game day and registering 3/2 * M people and telling the CO's to plan for M on game day, which is the overbooking model.
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Given the flux of players, I'm curious as to whether there may be available newer players in the MAs who aren't familiar with scenarios, who don't visit the BBs and who just don't know.
I wonder if a special announcement box in the lower right corner of the screen of the AH game (opposite the text buffer on the lower left) might help raise awareness. Special announcements could appear that would not distract from flying or driving, but would remain a few minutes, long enough for people to be able to take a look. A global special announcement a half hour before an event to all players in all arenas might increase numbers a bit. I know text announcements are usually made, but the amount of info possible in a line is limited and lines are ever-scrolling upward. A special static box on the lower right might be of help (and HT could also move all the other notices that pop up directly in front of you in the center of the screen always at the worst possible moment to the lower right at the same time, lol).
An additional thought - Add an "AH News" page on the clipboard that lists coming events and such, and perhaps make the events clickable if you are in the tower.
Just some thoughts.
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Originally posted by Brooke
There are two problems with attendence: (1) flaky players who sign up but never show up and (2) lack of larger numbers of people who want to play scenarios.
I would also add the inclusion of some walkons who are basically clueless dolts as number 3.
Imo Operation Huskey was one of the better run and officiated events in a while, and I've participated in many. The registered no shows were very disappointing but it happens everytime. My squad had no shows and I have voiced my displeasure to them about people signing up and not showing.
The registered pilots who showed from 880 and JV44 did an outstanding job for the Indomitable.
However, the walkons we received in frame 2 and 3 (despite their killing abilities) dam near torpedoed any coordination we had.
I know walkons are neccessary to fill the ranks, but is it fair to the guys who register, read the rules, recognize that there is an actual plan put forth by a chain of command, to have to put up with the constant pointless jabber on vox?
Imo it shows complete disrespect to the planners and registered pilots when "clueless Joe" comes in, is completely oblivious to any rules, the overall event, the chain of command, (sometimes even basic aircraft operation) and does nothing but tie up vox communications talking about non mission things. I kid you not, I even heard talk of brownies during flight. I expect that in the arenas, but in a scenario?
Is that fair to the players that read the rules and plan days ahead?
I tell you if any of our squad members acted like that on vox during any event, you better believe they would be reprimanded if not tossed out. There is nothing wrong with some idle chatter on vox in the proper place and time. But do you really think its time for "coffee talk" during an organized event?
I'm not trying to pick on walkons here as some do a very fine job fitting in. Its those that join up with not a care in the world and think its just another MA session all about them. It's the total lack of respect for the planners orders and radio discipline that cripes me.
I know countless numbers of you have had to put up with the very stuff I am talking about so I know its not news to most of you.
I'm sorry for this rant and believe it or not I have calmed down since frame 3. I truely wish I could offer a solution for this problem but until people who register actually show up we are gonna be forced to take walkons, some good and some very detriminal to the mission at hand.
Just to get a feel for how I and several of us felt after frame 3, below is an excerpt that I sent 880 the next morning.
Thank you Warloc and Jed for showing yesterday. I'm sorry we had to endure that crap on vox, but thats what happens when you have to fly with a bunch of clueless tards instead of our squad.
I promised myself after last night that never again would I fly a special event where we have to take walkons. Then I got to thinking maybe I will just fly them all as a walkon myself. Then I do not have to worry about 9 pages of silly rules (those must be for the other guy), I can ask noob question after question like how do I put my flaps down, or what is a seafire. I can share my aunt mildreds secret brownie recipe on vox while we are straining to hear intel.
And best of all I can adjust my orders as I see fit. Its not like the planners put hours into it, I'm sure their plan was optional and not intended for me. I can ask whats our next target within 2 seconds of the current target falling. The GL should know within those 2 seconds surely. Oh yeah and I can say I wish you guys had told me that rule.
As a walkon I will be able to concentrate only on getting kills, to hell with the frame objectives. I will ignore orders of where to go, I will wander off to what I think looks like a good target, then I will call back and see where everyone is at.
Of course I would have known had I not been continuesly talking on the radio about non mission things. What is this radio discipline thing I have heard about. I'm sure it doesn't pertain to me.
As you can see I'm still pretty hot over the entire situation. As far as the event, I think it was one of the better constructed and run events. The CMs didn't mess with the rules alot and ran it well imo.
But imo the walkons ruined it plain and simple. And why is it that we were forced to take walkons? I leave that for you guys to ponder.
Again thank you guys who showed and shifty for running the first two frames. Shifty, your patience is remarkable.
As to the event itself, my hat is off to the designers, CMs, planners and both sides. Besides the walkon issues this was imo one to remember.
Skyfoxx
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Don't get me started on empty slots...
If folks aren't going to show up, they shouldn't register. PERIOD. If they think they can only show up once, maybe twice (in a 4-frame event with 2 possible practice frames before that) then they should go as walk-ons and not bother signing up.
IF they sign up they need to show up to ANY practice frames (otherwise, what am I as CO doing, bothering to show up if nobody else does?), and they need to show up to ALL frames (valid excuses permissible).
When I was CO for BOB I had an ungodly number of folks that never showed up. It was near 20%
As a CO that's total crap. I need to know I have "12" pilot to send to "that area" and not 2 pilots! I can't USE 2 pilots! I have to merge them into another half-strength unit, and now I have a huge bloody hole in my front line.
The problem is not the number of slots. Normally if there's interest they open more slots. The problem is the folks hogging the slots aren't serious.
I've been in a few scenario. OpHusky has been the worst for participation % out of all of them. There were some dedicated folks helping on both sides, but there were also a lot of folks that didn't show up or decided "I don't wanna". In a setup where axis were supposed to have 25% of all pilots in Ju88s, this never happened. There were probably folks that said "Hell no, I'm not going to show up unless I get !"
These folks need to go back to the MA, and enjoy it. They won't enjoy scenarios. ALL of us in Stalin's Fourth recall the grumblings about sticking PILOTS in VEHICLES. The HORROR! Gasp!
It was still a royal blast! Very fun scenario! Your average MA "plane X pilot" isn't going to appreciate that just because they put "plane X" into the scenario, doesn't mean you'll be flying it like the MA at all.
Anyways, I guess you got me started. I warned you not to!!!
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Elitist attitudes do nothing to help promote scenario participation...or AH.
We had noob walkons on our side as well. They were not much worse than the under trained and inexperienced replacement pilots that trickled into real units during the war. We brought them up to speed as quickly and as thoroughly as we could, considering the situation.
Originally posted by Skyfoxx
I would also add the inclusion of some walkons who are basically clueless dolts as number 3.
Imo Operation Huskey was one of the better run and officiated events in a while, and I've participated in many. The registered no shows were very disappointing but it happens everytime. My squad had no shows and I have voiced my displeasure to them about people signing up and not showing.
The registered pilots who showed from 880 and JV44 did an outstanding job for the Indomitable.
However, the walkons we received in frame 2 and 3 (despite their killing abilities) dam near torpedoed any coordination we had.
I know walkons are neccessary to fill the ranks, but is it fair to the guys who register, read the rules, recognize that there is an actual plan put forth by a chain of command, to have to put up with the constant pointless jabber on vox?
Imo it shows complete disrespect to the planners and registered pilots when "clueless Joe" comes in, is completely oblivious to any rules, the overall event, the chain of command, (sometimes even basic aircraft operation) and does nothing but tie up vox communications talking about non mission things. I kid you not, I even heard talk of brownies during flight. I expect that in the arenas, but in a scenario?
Is that fair to the players that read the rules and plan days ahead?
I tell you if any of our squad members acted like that on vox during any event, you better believe they would be reprimanded if not tossed out. There is nothing wrong with some idle chatter on vox in the proper place and time. But do you really think its time for "coffee talk" during an organized event?
I'm not trying to pick on walkons here as some do a very fine job fitting in. Its those that join up with not a care in the world and think its just another MA session all about them. It's the total lack of respect for the planners orders and radio discipline that cripes me.
I know countless numbers of you have had to put up with the very stuff I am talking about so I know its not news to most of you.
I'm sorry for this rant and believe it or not I have calmed down since frame 3. I truely wish I could offer a solution for this problem but until people who register actually show up we are gonna be forced to take walkons, some good and some very detriminal to the mission at hand.
Just to get a feel for how I and several of us felt after frame 3, below is an excerpt that I sent 880 the next morning.
Thank you Warloc and Jed for showing yesterday. I'm sorry we had to endure that crap on vox, but thats what happens when you have to fly with a bunch of clueless tards instead of our squad.
I promised myself after last night that never again would I fly a special event where we have to take walkons. Then I got to thinking maybe I will just fly them all as a walkon myself. Then I do not have to worry about 9 pages of silly rules (those must be for the other guy), I can ask noob question after question like how do I put my flaps down, or what is a seafire. I can share my aunt mildreds secret brownie recipe on vox while we are straining to hear intel.
And best of all I can adjust my orders as I see fit. Its not like the planners put hours into it, I'm sure their plan was optional and not intended for me. I can ask whats our next target within 2 seconds of the current target falling. The GL should know within those 2 seconds surely. Oh yeah and I can say I wish you guys had told me that rule.
As a walkon I will be able to concentrate only on getting kills, to hell with the frame objectives. I will ignore orders of where to go, I will wander off to what I think looks like a good target, then I will call back and see where everyone is at.
Of course I would have known had I not been continuesly talking on the radio about non mission things. What is this radio discipline thing I have heard about. I'm sure it doesn't pertain to me.
As you can see I'm still pretty hot over the entire situation. As far as the event, I think it was one of the better constructed and run events. The CMs didn't mess with the rules alot and ran it well imo.
But imo the walkons ruined it plain and simple. And why is it that we were forced to take walkons? I leave that for you guys to ponder.
Again thank you guys who showed and shifty for running the first two frames. Shifty, your patience is remarkable.
As to the event itself, my hat is off to the designers, CMs, planners and both sides. Besides the walkon issues this was imo one to remember.
Skyfoxx
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Having numerous people per side (FLs or GLs perhaps?) the moderator's ability to mute tards would a good idea.
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The problem with that is that they wouldn't be allowed into either sides forums unless they are registered. Personally, I don't have a problem with those who were up front about which frames they couldn't attend.
My problem is with the ones who said nothing.
Is there a way to track attendance and assign an "attendance rating" to each player? At least with something like that CO's could make sure that those with low ratings don't get assigned to squads with a critical task.
Originally posted by Krusty
Don't get me started on empty slots...
If folks aren't going to show up, they shouldn't register. PERIOD. If they think they can only show up once, maybe twice (in a 4-frame event with 2 possible practice frames before that) then they should go as walk-ons and not bother signing up.
IF they sign up they need to show up to ANY practice frames (otherwise, what am I as CO doing, bothering to show up if nobody else does?), and they need to show up to ALL frames (valid excuses permissible).
When I was CO for BOB I had an ungodly number of folks that never showed up. It was near 20%
As a CO that's total crap. I need to know I have "12" pilot to send to "that area" and not 2 pilots! I can't USE 2 pilots! I have to merge them into another half-strength unit, and now I have a huge bloody hole in my front line.
The problem is not the number of slots. Normally if there's interest they open more slots. The problem is the folks hogging the slots aren't serious.
I've been in a few scenario. OpHusky has been the worst for participation % out of all of them. There were some dedicated folks helping on both sides, but there were also a lot of folks that didn't show up or decided "I don't wanna". In a setup where axis were supposed to have 25% of all pilots in Ju88s, this never happened. There were probably folks that said "Hell no, I'm not going to show up unless I get !"
These folks need to go back to the MA, and enjoy it. They won't enjoy scenarios. ALL of us in Stalin's Fourth recall the grumblings about sticking PILOTS in VEHICLES. The HORROR! Gasp!
It was still a royal blast! Very fun scenario! Your average MA "plane X pilot" isn't going to appreciate that just because they put "plane X" into the scenario, doesn't mean you'll be flying it like the MA at all.
Anyways, I guess you got me started. I warned you not to!!!
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Call it elitist if you like. But when someone comes to an organized event like this and does nothing but cause disruptions, then they don't need to be there. I know the allied planners spent countless hours on orders. You think its fair for rogue pilots to disregard their efforts?
It only take a few bad apples. I'm glad you had well behaved walkons Stub but if you had to put up with our "problem children" in frame 2 and 3 I'm sure your outlook would be much different.
I guess you missed the part where I said some walkons are perfectly behaved and perform fine. :rolleyes:
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still, the recurring pattern in scenario attendance is: land grab and perceived 'death trap' bomber spots like the Ju88 do not attract as many players as pure a2a scenarios.
While i think that Husky was a blast, i'm curious how many player a rerun of Ruhr,BigWeek or a similar placed new Scenario would attract.
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Below is from your original post:
"As you can see I'm still pretty hot over the entire situation. As far as the event, I think it was one of the better constructed and run events. The CMs didn't mess with the rules alot and ran it well imo.
But imo the walkons ruined it plain and simple. And why is it that we were forced to take walkons? I leave that for you guys to ponder. "
...and you don't think you are being elitist..... Well, OK then. :aok
Originally posted by Skyfoxx
Call it elitist if you like. But when someone comes to an organized event like this and does nothing but cause disruptions, then they don't need to be there. I know the allied planners spent countless hours on orders. You think its fair for rogue pilots to disregard their efforts?
It only take a few bad apples. I'm glad you had well behaved walkons Stub but if you had to put up with our "problem children" in frame 2 and 3 I'm sure your outlook would be much different.
I guess you missed the part where I said some walkons are perfectly behaved and perform fine. :rolleyes:
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I don't think we should gripe about newbie walkons. If the guy is chattering nonstop, tell him point blank "cut the chatter."
If he's doing stupid things, tell him "Get back here NOW mister! Form up! Head to target!" (or whatever). If the guy is obviously new to scenarios, you have to explain things to him. This also comes out in pre-flight breifings (or on climbout if you're pressed for time).
He may not take it kindly, and he may not like it. If not, he won't come back next time. Otherwise he'll get over it and realize things work differently in scenarios.
A newbie to scenarios has to learn somehow. Either they get it or they don't, but you have to teach them by example. That doesn't mean squelching them. That means laying things out for them.
"I know you're used to the MA but this is a scenario event. We do things differently. Don't talk too much. Some of us have to monitor several channels, including where we get orders from. Only talk when it's about the mission or when in combat."
and
"We don't go just for the kill in scenarios. We have orders. We need to do 'this objective' but it doesn't matter if we get 50 kills or no kills, as long as we do the job. That might mean buzzing past enemy fighters without engaging them. Do you understand? Just follow your wingman and do what the squad leader says."
Also, this might help
"There are strict rules in here. You can only do certain things. Since you're a walk-on you haven't read the rules. Don't take off until your squad leader tells you. Don't take a different plane unless he says you can. You just go off and do your own thing without permission and you'll be ejected from the server."
They have to learn somehow. If they don't PM the CM and have the squeaker ejected.
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Stub,
I stand by what I said, but you are misunderstanding that comment you point out.
If you will reread it, is an excerpt from an email I sent to our squad 880. The question was directed to them, "And why is it that we were forced to take walkons?" I leave that for you guys to ponder. "
I am asking my own guys who registered if they know why we were forced to take walkons. The answer is because the people that registered did not show. That answers that question. Part of that blame falls on the registered guys who did not show.
It does not address or excuse the bad behaviour displayed by a couple of the walkons.
Krusty,
Much of what you suggested was tried, it's not like they were not told. I guess you just had to be there. And one of the guys wasn't a newbie. He is quiet a good stick in the MA. I know I've never witnessed anything quiet to that extent before, with walkons or scenario players.
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Originally posted by Skyfoxx
Krusty,
I guess you just had to be there.
Probably :aok
Well don't give up heart, such cases seem less common than "normal" walk-ons.
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Originally posted by Skyfoxx
Krusty,
Much of what you suggested was tried, it's not like they were not told. I guess you just had to be there. And one of the guys wasn't a newbie. He is quiet a good stick in the MA. I know I've never witnessed anything quiet to that extent before, with walkons or scenario players.
I thought I saw ole squad hopper in a Seafire.
And hey don't worry about the thread hijack Skyfoxx, I know how you newbies to the forums tie up threads, don't follow the discussion, bring up other topics, you know sorta like the guys your complaining about. :rofl :rofl :aok
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Personally Im not a fan of walkons. Guys that are well aware of the event weeks prior and dont bother signing up, showing for pratices, planning etc, and wander in on game day and have no clue.
Some folks can't commit to an event prior due to work etc. Some walkons are great and are an asset to the team.
The thing is even the most die hard players can fail to show. When that happens, squads are too low to be effective, and any bodies seem good to have at T-10.
Although it has its problems sometimes, its necessary and from what I have seen, has always been this way.
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I think walkons are good to have in general. When I get them into my group in a scenerio, I brief them as best I can, and then off we go. Some of them are fine; some of them are very green, fly off, and you never hear from them again. However, I expect some of them to be like that, just like probably happened in real life from time to time, and I figure they help at least in providing another plane for the enemy to have to focus on.
Also, I think it helps as a way for some new guys to check out scenarios and for old hands to participate in scenarios where they can't commit but would love to play if they are available that day.
The biggest problem with organizing walkons was, in my opinion, greatly reduced in Operation Husky by closing at locking the doors at "start time" and having takeoff at least 15 minutes after "start time". Gone was the process of having walkons showing up all the way to takeoff, which really strained coordination.
This isn't to say there isn't the infrequent problem (like what Skyfoxx is talking about), but I think overall it's good.
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How many registered didn't show, and how many walkons did?
And let's call a spade a spade: vanscrew is no noob, he's not just unfamiliar with the rules, he's trying to be disruptive. Lumping everyone who didn't register in with the likes of him is insulting.
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Perhaps there could be a separate registration of sorts for walk ons and people who for one reason or another feel they cannot commit to being in each and every frame of the scenario.
It could be a general registration without choice of allied or axis. This way maybe we could have a pool of players who are at least familiar with the rules to fill in for squads that are short of players.
I am not saying not to allow walk ons like we have currently as I think they are probably still needed. I think it would be worth a try although it may take a little "advertising".
ie "Enlist now.. no commitment necessary. Please read the rules" ;)
Edit: maybe someone could even write a brief scenario walk on guide. Or even one for New Scenario Pilots
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Originally posted by Fencer51
I have been in three scenarios and in each both sides flew short every frame.
In AirWarrior we overbooked the scenarios because we expect people to not show, loose interest and have family emergencies occur.
Why does AH limit the registration to the maximum number of fliers? Why not over book by 20 or 30 percent or even 40 percent and let the CO's and their staffs handle the assignments and coordination.
I would ask that everyone return to Fencers original topic above. I should not have posted what I did in anger or in Fencers thread for that matter, and for that I apologize to you Fencer. :o
What I posted was true but I should not have brought it up here and I won't post in this thread again after this.
And Stub I appreciate you having the smarts to pm me on this. I'm glad you did. We found some comon ground and had a good converstaion in private.
Fencer I hope the squad hopper comment wasn't directed at me, I mean I've only been in two squads in 11 years. :)
As for over booking scenarios, imo that just might work in keeping the numbers closer to where they need to be. I mean there are always gonna be no-shows, thats a given.
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It was perfectly relevant to the subject at hand, IMO skyfoxx.
The original post had been replied to, and it was discussed.
Going back to his original post, I will say one thing: It screws the CO over. If you "overbook" you can't inflate properly. You can't say "I'm expecting 20% no-shows so we'll overbook by 20%" because the structure of those extra bodies will not "fill in" properly. Say you have units of 8, or 12. You can't just add 20% to each unit. You add another unit of 8 (or 12). So you just take more pilots and thin them out to the same ineffective % (you just have more ineffective units to spread around). You can't combine them as easily because that's a last resort, and chances are the different groups haven't flown with each other or practiced together.
Basically Adding extra slots doesn't buffer against "no-shows" -- it just makes more units with the same % of "no-shows."
As a CO you need to know you've got N resources to use against the enemy. Take for example Op Husky Frame 1. We were supposed to have 25% of our players in Ju88s. We had 7 players. There's a big difference between 7 and 24 (our limit I think). Now, we were able to severely hurt 1 CV and sink 1 CA with 7x Ju88s. If we'd had the resources that were assigned to Ju88s (if the blighters had shown up!) we'd have sunk both of your CV groups and backed you into a corner on Malta after frame 1.
Imagine if we did Big Week, and out of 50 bomber slots only 5 showed up. Doesn't matter how much you overbook, if the ratio holds the entire event is hosed for that CO.
IMO overbooking doesn't help (as we have expanding limits as-is). We need to figure a way to get folks to show up if they sign up.
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Originally posted by Krusty
ISay you have units of 8, or 12. You can't just add 20% to each unit. You add another unit of 8 (or 12).
A dumb question... Why cant one add 20% to each unit?
If the rules permit such, IMHO, it would be much more reasonable to spread the additional pilots all over. Making a one new unit out of them would be more trouble for command structure.
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As Old Sport suggested, I think the scenarios need to be 'advertised' more. I'm fairly new to AH and didn't realize that there were scenarios until I was bored one day at work and decided to check out everything in the forums. The SE forum is low on the page and I'm guessing a lot of people go straight to 'help and training' if they are new and 'general discussion' if they want.....well, general discussion. I didn't know that there was a vote as to which new plane to incorporate (old news..don't go looking for a new one) until I got the pop up in the middle of the screen after logging on to fly. I myself have been wanting to fly in a scenario, since that is one reason I decided on AH, but since I am fairly new, I don't know exactly where to start. There may be one already, but a 'what to do' and 'what to expect' for scenaios sticky may help others get their foot in the door. A 'register by squad' sounds like a good idea also. Again, for the first timers, having a squad mate that they are familiar with, may make it easier for them to get involved and not skitish about signing up. If it didn't pay to advertise, we would be able to watch our favorite tv show without being interupted every 15 minutes.
Enjoy :)
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Originally posted by McDeath
Edit: maybe someone could even write a brief scenario walk on guide. Or even one for New Scenario Pilots
Here's one. It's accessible from ahevents.org in the scenarios section:
http://ahevents.org/scenario-related/how-to-participate-in-aces-high-scenarios.html
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Originally posted by Hedworx
As Old Sport suggested, I think the scenarios need to be 'advertised' more.
Advertising scenarios would indeed bring in more pilots. We try what we can think of to do that. For example, we post in various places in the message board, we get a banner up on the events calendar, and we talk about it in the main arenas from time to time.
However, we can't automatically put it up as a message of the day in AH, as scenarios are done by volunteers who are not HTC staff -- we are all just players. So, we don't have the ability to do that and can only request it. Then it may or may not go up depending on what HTC wants to put in the message of the day. We also can't start doing things on HTC's web site.
If anyone has suggestions how to reach more people, I would love to hear it, because I am eager to get the word out more pervasively.
As for info on scenarios, what they are like, how to sign up, what to do on game day, what past scenarios have been like (including pictorials of the action), please visit the scenarios link on ahevents.org:
http://ahevents.org/scenario-related/scenarios.html
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My misunderstanding......I didn't realize that the scenarios were put on by volunteers. That also helps clear up my wondering as to why the special events page was on another site.
I'll do my best to make it to the next scenario and see if I can drag some people along. A previous commitment kept me from joining the last. As I said before, this is one reason why I chose to join AH. I believe the scenarios would immerse one deeper into the simulation of combat flying, than just flying around in furballs.....which I find entertaining as well.
Brooke...thanks for giving the links.
On another note, I'd like to try the AHXAR out sometime as well. Maybe crash into a few hangers.
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Originally posted by Skyfoxx
Fencer I hope the squad hopper comment wasn't directed at me, I mean I've only been in two squads in 11 years. :)
Not at all Skyfoxx, I enjoyed flying with you and your guys in Operation Downfall and BoB06.
Just poking fun at you on the thread hijack, no harm no foul.
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How bout a week night frame now and then so some of us weekend work types can get a shot?
I'm suffering from lack of scenario flying :)
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I can only speak for myself here, but I couldn't make it even if it were on Friday nights. It would still take 3 hours, plus an hour before to set up, and then not only are the US folks screwed time-wise, (stretching probably to 11-12 at night) but that precludes all Euro folks, who would have to stay up to 6-7 am (all night).
Weekends are really the only way to allow such a large time frame, and allow as many people as possible to sign up for it.
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Fencer,
Clean your inbox so I can respond to the past 2 PMs! :)
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Sorry about that, all cleaned out now your CMness.