Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: *NDM*JohnnyX on November 03, 2005, 04:47:42 PM
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Awesome Bomber hunter/tank killer, best known for a BK5 50mm with 21 rounds. Balanced or unbalanced, would be a nice perked twin engine heavy fighter.
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Does the U4 Rüstsatz mean the BK5-cannon? Sorry, I haven't read that much about the 410..
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The G-6 model, the most produced Bf 109 version, had very heavy armament. The G-6/U4 variant with Rüstsatz R6 was armed with two MG 131 above the engine, a 30 mm MK 108 cannon shooting through the propeller axis and one 20 mm MG 151/20 in each wing.
Got that from wikipedia, so apparantly the u4 designation varies from airframe to airframe.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/StalinsHeros/400px-Me_410_with_BK50.jpg)
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That cannon-armed version was not the best known. The most common was standard MG151/20s and a combination of MG151/20s and 30mms. What was often done was the internal bomb bay was filled with a rotating drum with 6 WGr 21 rockets (better than the 110G's 4 rockets, eh?) which could be fired at bombers.
The big gun version (which, btw, they tried on the Me262 as well) was only a test thing, and if I remember was not common (on an already rare plane). I would like to see the 410. It would be ..... "interesting"... to try and master :)
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That variant just happens to be my favorite, although over a thousand total 410s were built and alot saw service, I think if a variant can be decided on that's fair to all parties this would be a great multi purpose ride.
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I would never leave this plane. cept to continue my affair with the P40. :cool:
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Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
... so apparantly the u4 designation varies from airframe to airframe.
Yep, I knew that - the Rüstsatze are plane dependant - different plane, different modifications. What I meant to ask was whether the U4 meant the BK5 in Me410... But I guess it does. How many of these were in action? (As I said, I haven't read that much about the 410... - sorry!)
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Well Krusty says it was mainly a test version, I'm not terribly familiar with this ME. Always liked the looks of it and after researching it a bit I found it has very competitive specs and by all accounts was a good flying airplane. Some of the other loadouts would fit right in, but this one would be the most fun. And yes the u4 was the BK5, lol.
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Me 410A-2/U4 Bomber destroyer version. These aircraft retained the standard forward-firing gun battery in combination with a single 50 mm BK 5 gun supplied with 21 rounds of ammunition from a cylindrical magazine.
Number built: unknown out of 1.160 total
Boy, that helps :lol
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Originally posted by Octavius
I would never leave this plane. cept to continue my affair with the P40. :cool:
I would probably be the same, only replace P40 with 190a5. :P
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The U4 was indeed the factory designation for the BK5 cannon. Note that U is factory modification, not the same as R4, which is something that can be taken off/put on in the field.
I did a couple google searches.
Me 410A-1 had this armament: 2 x MG 131 + 2 x MG 151 + 2 x MG 131 (rear barbettes) + 1000 kg bomb load
However some had 7mm MG17s before going to MG131s. My book is brief on the matter, and only covers the 410 in short detail. The book says that some were destroyer versions with 4 forward firing MG151/20s, or 2 MG151/20s and a BK5 with 21 rounds (that would be the U4 but the book doesn't mention the designation). The A-2/U-2 was a night fighter with SN-2 Lichtenstein radar and 2 MG151s and 2 MK108s..
The book mentions "Many of the 1,121 ME410s carried Rutsatz packs housing two or more mg151, mk108, or mk103, and [EDIT: Check this out!!] occasionally experienced pilots fitted as many as eight MG151/20s all firing ahead."
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Wow, this thing would have to cost some perkies I think but it would be worth it. Depending on what it actually flew like, this would be a great addition. Thanks for the info Krusty!
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Wish I had more info. That's all I could find on short notice.
Originally posted by Krusty
"...occasionally experienced pilots fitted as many as eight MG151/20s all firing ahead."
That, there, is my favorite part >:D
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Haha, yeah mine too. I found this:
It also included 1,750 hp (1.287 kW) DB603A engines, whose performance increased up to 1,850 hp at higher altitude, .These drove the Me 410 to 390 mph (628 km/h) and greatly improved climb rates, service ceiling, and most notably the cruise speed which jumped to 360 mph (579 km/h) even though the new design added 1,500 lb (680 kg) to the original. Shackles under the wings for four 50 kg bombs were also added, as the new plane could lift a load larger than could be fit into the internal bay.
Talking about the improvements over the 210. Pretty impressive speed for its size.
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Well the 210 was a joke... It was so unstable it wasn't flight worthy. It needed a total redesign, and that's what it got -- with the 410.
Add to that, I think, the 210 had engine problems, and they only got ironed out in the 410's redesign.
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Just looking at war time photos of the thing, it seems that MOST did not have the BK5, but a good number did have it.
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Got this from another message board:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/StalinsHeros/lrg0321.jpg)
Me-410
Type: Two-seat tactical aircraft for fighter, attack and recon duties plus specialized variants
Origin: Messerschmitt AG
Models: A and B series
First Flight: December 1942
Engine: (A) Two Daimler-Benz DB 603A inverted liquid cooled V12
Horsepower: 1,750 hp ea.
(B) Two Daimler-Benz DB 603G inverted liquid cooled V12
Horsepower: 1,900 hp ea.
Dimensions:
Wing span: 16.4m (53 ft. 7.75 in.) Length: 12.45m (40 ft. 10 in.)
Height: 3.10m (14 ft. 0.5 in.) Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights: Empty: 6,150kg (13,560 lbs.)
Maximum: 10,650kg (23,483 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 620km/h (385 mph) Initial climb: 650m/min
Range (with full bomb load): 1,447 miles (2330 km)
Service Ceiling: 32,800 ft. (10,000m)
Armament:
Two remotely controlled powered barbettes on sides of fuselage each housing one 13mm MG 131
And
Internal weapons bay housing various combinations of weapons ranging from 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns, MG 151's, Mk 108 30mm cannon, BK5 50mm cannon with 21 rounds all the way up to 210mm rockets in a rotary tube configuration (tested, but poor results prevented front-line use).
Or
Two 1,102 lb. (500kg) Bombs
And
External Racks for two 1,102 lb. (500kg) Bombs
Plus
Two Ruestatz external packs housing Mg 151, Mk 108 or Mk 103 cannons were fitted to some variants
Avionics:
SN-2 Lichtenstein Radar on Me 410A-2/U-2 Night Fighter
FuG 200 Hohentwiel ASV (air/surface vessel) Radar on Me 410B-6 Anti-Shipping variant.
Source http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me410.htm
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Did it have counter rotating props? If not I think in AH it would be like the Moss and 110 now with some of those nasty stalls.
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Close up of the rotary rocket bay:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/StalinsHeros/Me410-B1-40s.jpg)
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No to the counter-rotating.
I think that info was copied directly from luftwafferesourcegroup or whatever the site is called. They said the exact same stuff. They're not alwas 100%, but it's a good idea of what the plane had
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There really isn't that much info on this thing, it seems like it made a good showing of itself during its service...that 8 20mm setup has got to rock.
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It is one of the aircraft that I'd most like to see in AH. I doubt it would replace my Mossie, but it would definately be added to my favorites list.
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The nose really looks like an A-10 Warthog.
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Well, the Cannon on the A10 was nearly that big.
Have you ever seen the bullets for that thing? Frickin huge!
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ack, edit, that pic was huge
I have one of those, it's deactivated, I'll post a better pic later.
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410 info (http://www.shockwaveproductions.net/firepower/manual/me410.htm)
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(http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/me309-i.jpg)
Type: Me 309V4
Function: fighter
Year: 1943 Crew: 1 Engines: 1 * 1475hp Daimler-Benz DB605B
Wing Span: 11.00m Length: 9.93m Height: 3.43m Wing Area: 16.50m2
Empty Weight: Max.Weight: 4870kg
Speed: 580km/h Ceiling: 12000m Range: 1100km
Armament: 2*g30mm 2*mg20mm 4*mg13mm
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I don't trust your info on the Me309 there.. For all intents and purposes it was a flop. Plus no 109 derivitage could carry that many guns (no place for them!!)
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309 info (http://frhewww.physik.uni-freiburg.de/~jaensch/109/w309.htm)
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werent "Zerstoters" (Bf-110 and Me-410) withdrawn in daylight anti - bomber defense when longer range escort fighters such as P-51 destroyed alot of them?
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Negative. They were very desperate at the end. One famous 110G4 night fighter had his own second plane for daylight attacks (a G2). I might have got G2/G4 transposed, but one was the night fighter one was not.
There is a rare pic of the 410 off a B17s wing (rare that the shot came out, but by the looks of other images the 410s were mostly a daylight fighter!)
Check out:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/wrg0238.jpg
EDIT: Found a shot of a 410 being shot down in daytime (claimed to be from a P51's gun cam)
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/splash.jpeg
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i have pilot quotes of the field mod 20mm cannon nose 410 (one pilot had the modification on his plane, the other pilots called it 'the watering can' because you couldnt miss with it) and the 50mm, which was described as 'blowing the viermots up like a balloon with a single hit'. They found that the prob with the 50mm was pilots were opening fire from too far out, as it was fitted with a telescopic gunsight.
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The 110's were withdrawn long before the 410's were. The 410's flew almost till the end of the war, they too however, suffered heavily against the single engine escort fighters.
However, we all know twin engined planes in AH rock big time so the 410 may be a monster if it is ever added.
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And people worry about my Stuka...
ju.87G-1
2×37 mm BK3,7 cannon
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My grandfather-in-law was a B17 commander and has a beautiful picture snapped from the cockpit of a 410 with the big cannon (looks like a wasp stinger in the picture, its sick) passing off his right wing. In the forground on the B17 wing there is a big freakin hole where that big cannon hit them. Thankfully it was a single hit and punched through pretty clean, they went home intact.
Anyhow, I've never done the serious research on the 410 but according to him, they were very rare and never a serious factor in the war... In fact that he claims that his photo of that one with the big cannon is the only actual combat photo ever taken of that varient (obvoiously there are lots of non-combat photos like above)... Anyhow, I don't know if a plane that rare belongs in AH.
Would be fun to play with though!
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I count 55 kills of Me410s and 2 damaged claims by Mossies during the war. The odd thing is that they are reasonably common in the kill list through the night of 7/8, July, 1944 when a Mossie XIII of, ironically, 410 Squadron shot one down near Paris. After that only one more kill claim against Me410s appears in the list.
It is odd that they drop so thuroughly off the list.
Looking over the list it seems that the poor Ju88s and Ju188s were the major victims of Mossie activities although Bf110s make a very strong showing in the kill list as well. Me410s are a minor number by comparison.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't trust your info on the Me309 there.. For all intents and purposes it was a flop. Plus no 109 derivitage could carry that many guns (no place for them!!)
Its not a 109 derivate, its a compltely new design. But a very stupid and nedlesly complicated and heavy one.
However it would have had astoundingly heavy armament of up to SEVEN 20mm and/or 30mm cannon, all centraly mounted in the fuselage or wing roots.
If they just dumped the tricycle landing gear and the wierd retractible radiator and their weight, size and complexity with something more conventional it could have been a great late war fighter, eaily the rival of late war allied planes...
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't trust your info on the Me309 there.. For all intents and purposes it was a flop. Plus no 109 derivitage could carry that many guns (no place for them!!)
Sorry Sir:
(http://www.grimsreapers.com/images/me309arm.gif)
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If we think strictly about the 8th vs. Luftwaffe setting which the ToD is based on according HTC...then Me-410 is pretty much the only major combat aircraft missing (if we dont count variants).
It's one of the planes I would like seeing the most. There are loads of Soviet and Japanese planes to do though but given the HTC emphasis on ToD right now it would, in my opinion, be the best time yet to add it!
I sure would like to be sitting in a Me-410 modelled by Nate/Superfly. :)
(http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/books/cockpit/small/Messerschmitt%20Me%20410AU2%20Hornisse.jpg)
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Originally posted by Karnak
I count 55 kills of Me410s and 2 damaged claims by Mossies during the war.
Heya:
I've got 15 claimed damaged, 71 claimed destroyed and 5 claimed probably destroyed. If you're looking in Sharp & Bowyer, the difference no doubt comes from the Intruder squadrons, which for some reason they don't count in their table. I reckon at least one of those claimed destroyed was mis-identified (German records have same evening, same location, different type from the RAF records.)
You're right though about Mossie claims for 410s dropping off in mid-44. They were primarily encountered over the U.K., and once Steinbock came to an end, that was about it, though there were some shot down during the initial part of the invasion.
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Scherf,
Bowman actually. It had the easist list to go over. Yes, I figure there are misidentified aircraft in there, some are bluntly listed as unidentified, but in lew of any other information it will have to do.
What I wonder is why Mossie Intruders didn't encounter them more often? Were they not used at night?
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Mossie "Tse Tse" had a 57mm cannon strapped under the cockpit.
I love flying this in FA 25 rounds 25 tank kills .....
:cool:
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Mossie "Tse Tse" had a 57mm cannon strapped under the cockpit.
I love flying this in FA 25 rounds 25 tank kills .....
Those 25 tanks kills are likely a big reason we'll not see the Tse Tse here. It would too dramatically alter the gameplay balance and added to that very few Mossie XVIIIs were built.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Those 25 tanks kills are likely a big reason we'll not see the Tse Tse here. It would too dramatically alter the gameplay balance and added to that very few Mossie XVIIIs were built.
Actually, I think the reason quoted why we will never see the Tse Tse Fly, or a 50mm gun option for the Me-410 for that matter, is because they dont want anti-buff snipers.
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Originally posted by Tails
Actually, I think the reason quoted why we will never see the Tse Tse Fly, or a 50mm gun option for the Me-410 for that matter, is because they dont want anti-buff snipers.
Both reasons in fact. Pyro said as much when I talked to him last month. The Tse Tse was something I was interested in.
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Hmmm:
The 410s were used at night, but not as night fighters, which of course is what the Intruders were primarily after.
There were some 410s used as Luftwaffe Intruders over the U.K. - caused mayhem with one returning USAAF raid in particular. None of the 410s used on that sortie had radar though. Also not sure whether any of them fell to Mossies, though I did correspond for a while with a gent whose father said he had, as a boy during the war, seen a 410 pursued at low level by a Mossie - in daylight!
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Scherf, incorrect. Many 410s were fitted with radar and were, in fact, night fighters. Just like the 110 and the ju88, and many other night fighters.
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That's not what my LW researcher friend tells me, but the 410 ain't anything near my specialty.
Old post on LWAG:
I'd like to see their sources...
Fri Mar 29 02:44:11 2002
63.164.170.182
for the Bf 410 with radar at all ! Photos with KG 51 codes would be nice. Maybe in the new KG 51 book in the future eh ? This has been covered for almost 20 years, did they have radar or not. My opinion is that KG 51 did not have radar fitted to their night intruders. The was no room in the R/O position for a FuG 220 set let alone a set in nose of a 410 if you want to call it a nose. Units with NJG 1 and 5 had severe problems with the powerplants and were disgusted with the performance of the 410 as it was pushed aside and the Bf 110G-4 was retained until the advent of the He 219 and Ju 88G series.
and (also from Erich):
The Me 410 was never a night fighter but used as an intruder over England and in the spring of 44 followed US formations back to Britian. there was only experimentation to fit Me 410's with radar but they did not fly operationaly.
Like I say, not my specialty, so don't shoot the messenger. I've seen internet sources saying it was in the Nachtjagd with radar, but as Erich's been researching the NJ for the better part of 30 years, I'll take his word for it. Your mileage may vary.
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Good point. I do seem to recall, however, that there are model kits of it as a night fighter. Naturally model kits aren't representative of the whole. Perhaps it was a matter of waiting for the radar to come in.
Regardless of radar, however, I'd like to add a thought. A "night fighter" was just that... a fighter that operates at night (usually shooting down enemy bombers) with the help of radar. Sometimes it was ground control radar guiding single engined non-radar-equipped planes to their target, then the pilots had to fend for themselves. Sometimes pilots would be guided into area then use their own radar (if they had it). So I think if the 410 worked at night hunting allied bombers it was a night fighter, even without radar installed.
Po-tay-to, puh-tah-to, eh? :aok
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Heheh:
You say pajamas, and I'll say pajamas.
:D
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Wow, I never thought when I posted this I'd spark such a wonderful discussion. After considering it, maybe the BK5 option would be overkill. This plane probably wouldn't be much different than my loved 110, perhaps a few small changes in performance, so now I'm not sure if it would qualify to be added.
I'll tell you what though, I'd still love to see it in game!
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It would perform better in 2 major areas:
speed and armament.
You can't model the 410 and disregard a half-dozen different armament options.
The 410 could carry 2x WGrs under each wing, and a rotating drum of 6 in the bomb bay, so with both you'd get 10 shots, which is more than twice the 110G currently allows. This, of course, would remove your MG151/20s, if I understand it (the rotating drum removes them, right?). You could get 7mms or 13mms for peashooters. You could have 2x rutsatz packs for extra 20mm cannon (4 under nose, 2x20mm pack and another 2x20mm pack, 8 20mm) or a 2x30mm rutsatz kit, or a bomb load, no doubt DTs could be carried under the wings outboard of the engines.
I think the armament would be vastly superior to the 110G if it had plenty of options.
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Yeah, but I can even foresee some people objecting to 8x20mm, so I dunno how fair it would be.
But I hate the LA-7, so screw it :furious
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Krusty,
I think that two of the nose mounted MG151/20s are permanent installations so it would lose some 20mms, but not all.
When I talked to Pyro I brought the Me410 up because it is such an interesting aircraft with the cockpit layout and all the armament options. One thing he said is that he'd like to model it because of all the interesting things they could do with it armament wise. He also thought AH was setup to handle the tail guns aiming quite well.
Even though I am an RAF fan I would really like to see the Me410 added.
Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
Yeah, but I can even foresee some people objecting to 8x20mm, so I dunno how fair it would be.
I don't think so. The key difference is that the bombers can shoot back at the Me410 using eight 20mm cannon. Against a Me410 using the BK5 50mm cannon or a Mossie XVIII using the Mollins 57mm gun they would be unable to defend themselves. The BK5 or Mollins fighter would just stand off outside of the bomber's defenive gun range and lob shells at them from safety.
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410 wasn't used as a nightfighter during the war. Nacthjagd didn't use the type. What might have happened during those intruder sorties is one thing but it wasn't used "as Ju-88s and 110s were used" against the RAF nightbombing offensive. There weren't any nightfighter units flying it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The 410 could carry 2x WGrs under each wing, and a rotating drum of 6 in the bomb bay, so with both you'd get 10 shots, which is more than twice the 110G currently allows.
That rotating drum was experimental only. It was used in combat trials though in 410B's. Not much reason to include it in AH.
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Wmaker, we're talking about a plane that had almost every german weapon in some way, shape, or form strapped to it during its very brief lifespan as an aircraft. This is intensified by the fact only ~1000 were made. So the rotating drum was used in combat trials but not put into production -- well it looks like precious little that this plane did do was actually done during production. By that I mean it looks like most versions of it were rare and specialized as it was.
Considering the nature of this plane (a flying test bed, as it were) I'd not bat an eye at putting in the rotating drum. It's not like we're making it easier to hit with the WGrs lol.
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Good thread over on LEMB, though I risk flogging a dead horse.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=891
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Need a login for that... Care to summarize what the post says?
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Sorry, didn't realise.
Basically just a debate re: radar-equipped 410s / nightfighter 410s.
Same conclusion as this thread really. Should not have posted the link - bored.
"Move along people, nothing to see here."
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lol s'all good
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Well I think we all more or less agree this would be a good plane to add. I hope one day I can put up a wall of 20mm's for those pesky lil la's to stumble through.
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Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
Close up of the rotary rocket bay:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/StalinsHeros/Me410-B1-40s.jpg)
Moin
About the rotary rocket bay here are some infos:
In German:
Eine weitere Me 410 wurde für die Verwendung Werfer-Granate WGr. 21 umgebaut. Anstelle der starren Waffen wurde im Rumpfbug eine sich im Uhrzeigersinn drehende Trommel mit sechs Werferrohren eingebaut, von der jeweils eins zum Schluß freilag, während die anderen innerhalb des Rumpfes verblieben. Nach der Vorerprobung des Gerätes wurde die Maschine zur Erprobungsstelle Tarnewitz überführt. Die dort durchgeführten Schießversuche befriedigten nicht; die sich beim Schuß stauenden Pulvergase sprengten die gesamte Bugverkleidung der Me 410 ab.
Now i try to translate.
One singel Me 410 was chaned for use with werfer-Granate WGR. 21.
This rotary rocket bay replaced the guns in the nose (dont know if it replaced all). This rotary did rotate in clock direction. Only one WGr was open ready to fire. The others was inside. After the first testing the ME was send to the Testing Airfild (Erprobungsstelle) Tarnewitz. The fire tests at this airfild wasn t realy sucesful. The main problem was that the gas (smog/ Pulvergase) of the rockets blow of the compled front part of the me 410.
hope i transleted god enought so you can understand.
cu chris3
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I've actually seen black and white film footage of the doors and how they closed over that setup. It was rather cool to see it on film. This was years ago on some obscure discovery wings show.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The U4 was indeed the factory designation for the BK5 cannon. Note that U is factory modification, not the same as R4, which is something that can be taken off/put on in the field.
I did a couple google searches.
Me 410A-1 had this armament: 2 x MG 131 + 2 x MG 151 + 2 x MG 131 (rear barbettes) + 1000 kg bomb load
However some had 7mm MG17s before going to MG131s. My book is brief on the matter, and only covers the 410 in short detail. The book says that some were destroyer versions with 4 forward firing MG151/20s, or 2 MG151/20s and a BK5 with 21 rounds (that would be the U4 but the book doesn't mention the designation). The A-2/U-2 was a night fighter with SN-2 Lichtenstein radar and 2 MG151s and 2 MK108s.
The book mentions "Many of the 1,121 ME410s carried Rutsatz packs housing two or more mg151, mk108, or mk103, and [EDIT: Check this out!!] occasionally experienced pilots fitted as many as eight MG151/20s all firing ahead."
Yea, this would be a cool plane to have in the game. What people don't realize though is that it was designed as a bomber killer. Thats why it was so heavily armed. Unfortunately it really didn't have that much better performance in the air than the Me110. And when it was fully loaded with guns and ammo I guess it just got down right hard to maneuver. I do know that the Hungarians used the Me210 quite a bit, mainly for ground attack though. I think they used the Me410 some too but I'm not 100% sure on that.
I'd love to see the plane in the game but I doubt alot of people would fly it much after they found out they can't turn and burn like in their Spits and LAs.
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Having the 410 would be interesting. If HT is concerned about the 50mm cannon creating a buff sniper, I'd suggest just making that a perked variant.
Frankly, we got the Hurri IID with twin 40mms, which you could also use as a buff killer that way if you were so inclined. Also, of the 8,600-odd Hurricanes made, only 300 or so were IID's, so having an unknown number of 50mm armed - 410's out of 1000 or so built shouldn't really be an issue either.
EagleDNY
:aok
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Hurr2D is not the same. Those guns are meant for armor penetration of GVs. You would NEVER be able to fly behind a formation of bombers at 1.5k-2k and just fire a single shot and destroy the bomber in your sights. THat's what you would be able to do with the 50mm gun on the 410, and why we won't see it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hurr2D is not the same. Those guns are meant for armor penetration of GVs. You would NEVER be able to fly behind a formation of bombers at 1.5k-2k and just fire a single shot and destroy the bomber in your sights....
That and the fact that the Hurri 2d cant fly fast enough to catch any other bomber other than a Ju-87 in a tailchase (and that might be pushing it :D )
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I understand the argument that it could create an unstoppable buff killer, but I think the reality would be that 1) escorts would eat it for lunch, and 2) getting a 410 out and up to altitude to intercept a buff formation would be difficult before the buffs reached their target.
I'd give a 410 a try if it were available, but for intercepting an incoming bomber stream there a plenty of other rides I'd pick first. I think you'd see the 50mm being tried out on tanks & ships more than on bombers.
EagleDNY
.02
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Escorts? In AH2?!?
Buffs at altittude? In AH2?!?
What are you smoking, and may I have some?
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These were primarily my worries when originially posting this thread. You can decimate a bomber flight with a 110 as it is now, but on the flip side the Me-410 does not need the 50mm to be included in the game. I think enough 410s were produced with other setups to justify having it in AHII.
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The Me-410 (210) had actually been created to replace the Me-110, but in the end, the Me-110 survived the propaganda...
And the 110 had been created to be a bomber destroyer, being able to chase the bombers all the way down to England, we don't need another plane for this task IMO
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Then why all the versions of Spitfires and 109s?
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Frankly, we got the Hurri IID with twin 40mms, which you could also use as a buff killer that way if you were so inclined. Also, of the 8,600-odd Hurricanes made, only 300 or so were IID's, so having an unknown number of 50mm armed - 410's out of 1000 or so built shouldn't really be an issue either.
Thank god you're not a sniper, because you're way off mark.
The Hurricane definately had more then 300 built, I'll dig up the numbers again, but 1500 sticks out in my mind.
Not only that, but the dual 40mm's on the Hurricane are AP rounds. Basically, really really big bullets. They do not explode on contact. Nor are they insta kill shots on Buffs. They don't even kill 100% of the time against fighters.
The Hurricane can catch all the buffs easily with the exception of the Ju87. The 87 actuall moves pretty fast.
But of course you are speaking from experience, right? That's how you can come out and make all these statements, right?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Not only that, but the dual 40mm's on the Hurricane are AP rounds. Basically, really really big bullets. They do not explode on contact. Nor are they insta kill shots on Buffs. They don't even kill 100% of the time against fighters.
The Hurricane can catch all the buffs easily with the exception of the Ju87. The 87 actuall moves pretty fast.
The bullets would go clean trough the skin of an aircraft, maybe inflicting some damage on armored parts
Are you sure you mean the Ju-87? Not the 88?
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Doesn't work that way frank. If you're CLOSE enough and can actually hit with the 40mms of a hurr2 they'll do damage, but that's still 200d range, whereas the 50mm gun was like 1.5k range. No comparison.
And he means the Ju88. You (a bomber person) of all people should know the Ju88s are fast as hell in AH :)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Not only that, but the dual 40mm's on the Hurricane are AP rounds. Basically, really really big bullets. They do not explode on contact. Nor are they insta kill shots on Buffs.
You are incorrect here. They were NOT really big bullets. Bullets are solid-core rounds that do damage from kinetic energy. They hit stuff, that stuff gets holes in it. The 40mms on Hurr2Ds are cannon rounds. They are shaped and designed to penetrate armor BEFORE exploding, but explode they do, and that is where their energy comes from (chemical energy as opposed to kinetic).
I believe you are right that they did not necessarily explode on contact, and would not be instant kills on bombers.
In AH however they still do massive damage. Land one near the fuselage and an f4u will instantly explode, that much I've seen while playing around with them.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Thank god you're not a sniper, because you're way off mark.
The Hurricane definately had more then 300 built, I'll dig up the numbers again, but 1500 sticks out in my mind.
Not only that, but the dual 40mm's on the Hurricane are AP rounds. Basically, really really big bullets. They do not explode on contact. Nor are they insta kill shots on Buffs. They don't even kill 100% of the time against fighters.
The Hurricane can catch all the buffs easily with the exception of the Ju87. The 87 actuall moves pretty fast.
But of course you are speaking from experience, right? That's how you can come out and make all these statements, right?
Here's a couple of links to some hurricane production figures - of the 8,600 or so Hurricanes built in Britain during the war, only 296 are listed as type IID's. I wasn't saying that there were only 300 or so hurricanes built, I was saying the 40mm vickers armed variant was only a relatively rare model.
One of the arguments against the 410/50mm variant was that it was only used in a small number of aircraft, so I was trying to compare the "relatively rare" 40mm cannon armed hurricane to total production and show another AH aircraft type that was available although rare during the war.
Links:
http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM
http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/html%20pages/hawker%20hurricane.htm
EagleDNY
PS: try reading the whole post
:eek:
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The 410 would be awesome...especially with the U4 package with the 50 mm BK5 cannon :t
....but the U2 two 20mm MG 151/20 cannon package would work too.
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Ugh, Republic dude, you need to leave dead thread as they were -- dead.
You've been resurrecting dead threads from years ago, and quite frequently. At this stage of their lives, they are meant for information. They are meant for linking to. However it might be better to post a new thread and reference the old one rather than just reply to the old one.
Hope that helps.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Ugh, Republic dude, you need to leave dead thread as they were -- dead.
You've been resurrecting dead threads from years ago, and quite frequently. At this stage of their lives, they are meant for information. They are meant for linking to. However it might be better to post a new thread and reference the old one rather than just reply to the old one.
Hope that helps.
Look at it this way...at least he searched for it :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
:furious
Sometimes you just can't win... You start a new post, you get griped at, you dig up an old post you get griped at...
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Well sometimes folks are upset that something has been requested a billion times.
I hope my reply in this thread wasn't too harsh. I think in this situation (a plane that's been requested very frequently) it would be best to start a new thread and give links to the older threads (if they're greater than 3 months old) and sort of say "See, it's been requested this many times, we should have it".
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no problem Krusty, each forum seems to have it's own etiquette about old posts, I'm still fairly new to posting here. (Long time lurker)
I had just rewatched something I recorded from long ago about the 410 and didn't see any recent posts about it. With the attention to detail AH gives to each plane, the idea of a 110 replacement or really....anything new...makes me drool :)
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Actually, I'm glad the thread was resurrected, as I now have to retract my earlier statements, since the fellow who runs this site:
http://www.gyges.dk/
recently found an original German document listing KG 51 and its Me 410s in a Wilde Sau Order of Battle.
Details are here:
http://www.gyges.dk/Wilde%20Sau%20Frankrig.htm
So, night-fighters (as opposed to Intruders) after all, though still without radar.
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Still like to see a 210/410, but after watching this, I don't think I'd fly it unless I had no choice.
Much like the real pilots...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk4Aiscs3jM&mode=related&search=
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FYI: All those instability problems were with the 210. They gloss it over, but the 410 was a total redesign of the wing and other areas. A totally new airframe. Like the 109F over the 109E.
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Quiet you, I just wanted it added so I have something else to feed to my P-51. :D
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Originally posted by *NDM*JohnnyX
Then why all the versions of Spitfires and 109s?
Because they actually had an impact on the war?
Don't get me wrong, the 410 would be a lot of fun. But questioning why we have so many Spitfires and 109s is lunacy.