Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Rich46yo on September 29, 2013, 06:41:49 AM
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I understand the basic concept. Two cards that do the work of one. I have a SLI MB with a GTX580 installed. Should I buy a 2nd 580, would it be worth it? And would the upgrade make more sense then buying a new single card. Exactly how would SLI work with modern games?
Thank you.
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Per your title I think reading wiki will explain a lot wiki SLI link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Link_Interface)
The rest of your questions seem more related to cost. I was under the impression a GTX580 is pretty good. So is increasing fps or detail worth anything to you if you can't actually tell the difference when playing a game? As different games put different loads on the graphics I think you need to be more specific about what you plan on playing. It seems to me that as a general rule the cost of cards at the top end goes up very steeply and so it is probably more a question of doing the maths. How does the performance/cost ratio compare. Again I think you need to check out tests for the games in question.
The single card vs two in SLI is interesting. Will a SLI setup actually give you a difference you can see? According to wiki it may even drop the performance on some applications but no specific games mentioned.
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According to wiki it may even drop the performance on some applications but no specific games mentioned.
Right, I know in certain games it wont make a difference but im wondering how it works out in the real world. Basically I want to keep this system current, able to play the new games at full steam, but dont necessarily want to buy the latest gaming card. Im sort of caught in the middle, with a good but older card, still good enough not to warrant spending $600 on a new one. I'd kinda like to buy a good used one as a cheaper alternative.
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Go to Tomshardware and check out the benchmark charts. They bench every card alone and in SLI/Crossfire with several different applications/games. See if a new card will bench higher than your card in SLI in the applications you use and if it will be cost effective.
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First, the GTX580 is still a very good card, i cannot imagine any game where it would struggle. A 3-monitor setup maybe.
Its all about how much is an other 580 nowadays. SLI will give you an about 50-70% performance gain in most of the newer games - a pair of 580s are about in par with, or a bit faster than the 680/770.
There are other eyepoints though. The 580 consumpts ~250 Watts. 2 of them can easily eat up to 500, even without OC-ed. With a suitable, decent CPU (i assume, you have at least an i7 9xx or an i5 2500), you might need an at least 750W PSU. Also, there is a chance that some games cannot take use of the SLI - then your setup will work as like it had one 580. Newer games usually have a decent CF/SLI support though, while the older ones just couldnt profit from the extra speed - 60fps limited by your monitor.
What i would advice:
-do you really need the extra power? Is there anything you cannot run well (maybe after some tweaking with the settings)?
-if your PSU is good enough, but you dont want to spend too much, doubling the 580s might worth it. But if your budget is high enough, i would go for a single card, at least a 770/780/7970GHz.
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Thanks for the advice. I only have a 750 watt power and that kinda concerns me. I just dont see 750 as enough, what with all the other stuff I have going as well.
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Here are some of my thoughts on SLI after having built a few for my use; I am not familiar with the GTX 580. But in my opinion it is not worth adding a second cheap card to a system. I consider anything around 100$ or below to be a cheap card. $200 up medium to expensive. I don't think there is enough trade off of dollars to performance gained by adding a second cheap card to a system. Make sure your PSU can handle a second card. Newegg has a wattage calculator to check.
Instead of two $100 cards. One $200 card is a better choice. But that's just my opinion. I have done cheap cards, medium and high end. It seems that your best gains are in the medium to upper end. I think it's probably due to the better stuff that comes with a better card. Again that's just an opinion. :rock
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I only have experience with AMD's "crossfire" multi-card ability. I had a single HD 5850 card (http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5850/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5850-overview.aspx#2) in a machine with a first-generation i7 CPU, an i7-930 (http://ark.intel.com/products/41447/Intel-Core-i7-930-Processor-8M-Cache-2_80-GHz-4_80-GTs-Intel-QPI) running a little bit faster than stock, at 3.4 GHz. Adding a second 5850 video card improved in-game performance only slightly during very busy scenes. The lowest number I saw with one card was down around 15 FPS, and with two, about 20 FPS.
YMMV
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I only have experience with AMD's "crossfire" multi-card ability. I had a single HD 5850 card (http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5850/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5850-overview.aspx#2) in a machine with a first-generation i7 CPU, an i7-930 (http://ark.intel.com/products/41447/Intel-Core-i7-930-Processor-8M-Cache-2_80-GHz-4_80-GTs-Intel-QPI) running a little bit faster than stock, at 3.4 GHz. Adding a second 5850 video card improved in-game performance only slightly during very busy scenes. The lowest number I saw with one card was down around 15 FPS, and with two, about 20 FPS.
YMMV
AFAIK AH is not a supported Xfire/SLI game so you're not going to see big improvements if any. Without a proper profile only 1 card is utilized and the end result can even be slower than with a single card.
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AFAIK AH is not a supported Xfire/SLI game so you're not going to see big improvements if any. Without a proper profile only 1 card is utilized and the end result can even be slower than with a single card.
This. AH simply does not need 2 580s (i think), yet the newer, more demanding games usually can take use of the CF/SLI.
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AFAIK AH is not a supported Xfire/SLI game so you're not going to see big improvements if any. Without a proper profile only 1 card is utilized and the end result can even be slower than with a single card.
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think ah has an sli profile but its an older one. i play with sli evga 465 and have full frames with everything on and shadow at 2048. only problem i have had was this weekend with new clouds in tt when fps went into the 20s.
I play with 3 23in monitors at 52whateverx 1080p.
semp
i onl
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This. AH simply does not need 2 580s (i think), yet the newer, more demanding games usually can take use of the CF/SLI.
That. depends.
SLI does improve frame rates and rendering even for games that don't support it fully. Also, people who run games on a multi monitor setup (like me), and thus higher resolutions, are going to see a improvement as well.
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I've been messing around with 680's and 780's in SLI this last year. The SLI profile for AH2 isn't the best, and IMO I would recommend anyone who is focusing on AH graphics performance to not bother with SLI and get the fastest single GPU card they can afford. The difference on a single 1080p 24" 144hz monitor or 3 of the same, with a single 680 4gb or in SLI is very negligible, something SKuzzy warned/told me when I was buying my 2nd card to use for 3 screens. He was absolutely correct, it didn't make much FPS improvement, if any. With the 780gtx 3gb card being almost the equal as a Titan, as in 1 or 2 percent either way in most games, once you clock it a little higher with afterburner or whatever, for the price, it's far cheaper than 2 680's were when I purchased them, and faster as well, but, as I said, not much difference in AH fps wise, I see 144hz maxed out constantly on 1 screen or 3, until I turn up reflections/environment slider to max, then it'll drop a lot.
Unless you're really into BF3, or a bunch of other FPS/RTS/MM games that really use SLI and have a good profile, which you can google/check out easily, I wouldn't bother with SLI, as looking back, I wouldn't have for the limited boost I saw in many of the simulation games I play, or here with AH2.
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Your experience is somewhat different than mine, not only with AH2 (tho' admittedly its a small improvement) to other games such as ROF.
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I don't play ROF. Rome 2 for example sees zero increase with SLI right now, all of the DCS games see maybe 4 or 5 fps, if that. In another thread I posted screen shots of all of this with both a 3820 and a 3930k @ 4.6, and with the Titan, 680gtx in sli and single. I'll update it now with the 780's, but the difference is the same with AH2. I will say with 3 screens running it makes a small difference having 2 680's instead of 1, but with the 780 it's not nearly as much - all of the cards will run 144fps which maxes out the monitors, again, so long as we aren't talking about reflections/environment.
A few of the FPS games SLI makes a larger, much larger performance difference, but I wasn't talking about them. BF3, CoD, the latest Far Cry, and the latest Crysis - yes, big big gains with SLI, running 2 780gtx compared to a single, or a single 680 or even the Titan on its own...HUGE performance gain.
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AFAIK AH is not a supported Xfire/SLI game so you're not going to see big improvements if any. Without a proper profile only 1 card is utilized and the end result can even be slower than with a single card.
There are Aces High profiles for SLI and Crossfire support. They just are not done very well at all. We have no control over that. It seems you have to be a triple A game title before you get good multi-card support.
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There are Aces High profiles for SLI and Crossfire support. They just are not done very well at all. We have no control over that. It seems you have to be a triple A game title before you get good multi-card support.
Thats sad.
Not that if i look like i could afford money for a SLI setup, but does this technology work in the same way in most of the games? I mean, isnt there a standard rendering method what can be used in almost every case? Theese programs are written in directx anyways - sounds kinde odd to me, that the programmers have to create "SLI profiles" for each game, insted of this being built in into the developing enviroment.
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SLI profiles are created by NVidia, for each game. There are many, many ways to present 3D graphics along with a plethora of options one can choose to support. Pretty much requires a profile for each game.
The problem NVidia and AMD will have with Aces High is we continuously update the game. The profiles they created, are not applicable to what we ship today.
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SLI profiles are created by NVidia, for each game. There are many, many ways to present 3D graphics along with a plethora of options one can choose to support. Pretty much requires a profile for each game.
The problem NVidia and AMD will have with Aces High is we continuously update the game. The profiles they created, are not applicable to what we ship today.
This would explain the small boost I get for AH...which is OK for me because AH was not the primary motivator for me to get an SLI setup.
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SLI profiles are created by NVidia, for each game. There are many, many ways to present 3D graphics along with a plethora of options one can choose to support. Pretty much requires a profile for each game.
The problem NVidia and AMD will have with Aces High is we continuously update the game. The profiles they created, are not applicable to what we ship today.
Thanks for the explanation.
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And that was the original point I made Fulcrum, if AH is the primary reason somebody wants to spend 2x the amount on another GPU for SLI, they should probably think twice about that. I like yourself use SLI for a ton of other games, but a lot of players here only really play this game, and the increase they would see from SLI here is minimal.
I just upgraded to 3 1440P Asus monitors, and at 60hz max in these, SLI has made again a small difference with 780GTX's overclocked to Titan-ish performance levels.
It's a shame the developers of the games aren't able to have a hand in the creation of their own SLI profiles, as from what I take from Skuzzy's posts here and in the past, it's mostly out of their hands. I'm sure an optimized profile that had the same time put into it as Nvidia puts into games like BF3 would make for massive gains in FPS in Aces High.
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I have never seen a ready made ah sli profile with my vid cards. I made my own I guess.
Read the net, read here, read FA, learned what each choice does, played with choices, went with what I felt best with.
Things like Phys X and SLI, X Fire will prolly go unsupported very soon. Not enough devs got onboard with method. They say that Direct X is on its way out. Very hard to decide how to build something thats easially upgradable for immediate future. I have the itch to build again but 1 year from now some new tech suppose to be out.......................... ...
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The beauty of the HW business model is built in obsolescence.
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So many things are ploys to sell hardware. Then things fall one direction, next innovation pops out.
If you do not feel like spending $700 on the latest and greatest single gpu. You will benefit from a pair of older, cheaper nVidia cards.
ie: GTX 550 TI 's More vid ram cannot be bad. The pair will still not bench as well as the bestest single, but who cares. Its how it handles the games. The software is way behind the hardware.
Just read a diddy that states, that 6GHz, maybe the upper most cap on current cpu architecture, heat issues.
But theres something called a quantum cpu.......................... ........
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If you do not feel like spending $700 on the latest and greatest single gpu. You will benefit from a pair of older, cheaper nVidia cards.
ie: GTX 550 TI 's More vid ram cannot be bad
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There will be a small FPS benefit, depending on which game you run, as little as 10-20%. And you do not double the video RAM by having two cards. Functionally, windows merely sees two identical copies of the same buffer.
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Must admit that I am not up on the intricasies of cards.
I know that I use alternate frame rendering in order to play AH in SLI mode. I select 1 pre-rendered frame, the cards each render the entire frame, 1 then the other.
I have disabled 1 card and gone single. The 2nd card does help overall a smidge. GPU releases in last 5 years have been phenominal. More ram and faster gpu's despite PHYs X, CUDA,.................
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As of this very moment the bare minimum for 4k resolutions is a GTX 680 I believe (not that being wrong in this case matters much). Try SLI at 4k and see what happens.
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Well since i started playing BF4 Beta I am back enamored with the BF series. Now im really considering a power upgrade along with a 2nd 580 GTX in an SLI slot. From what Im hearing BF4 will be optimized for SLI, that and an upgrade to Win-8.1 which will be shortly coming out shortly with DX 11.2. BF4 is a graphics hog. My system aint bad but I was forced to "medium" settings. With AH I was getting steady 60 fps even at high settings. In BF4 Im only at a steady 30 fps with 30 to 40 normal at medium settings.
Its an i7 with 12 gigs of ram and a 1.5 gig 580. Its not a bad system but for BF4 I'd consider it 'minimum".
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By 4k I meant 3840x2160 resolution (single monitor).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236338
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Well since i started playing BF4 Beta I am back enamored with the BF series. Now im really considering a power upgrade along with a 2nd 580 GTX in an SLI slot. From what Im hearing BF4 will be optimized for SLI, that and an upgrade to Win-8.1 which will be shortly coming out shortly with DX 11.2. BF4 is a graphics hog. My system aint bad but I was forced to "medium" settings. With AH I was getting steady 60 fps even at high settings. In BF4 Im only at a steady 30 fps with 30 to 40 normal at medium settings.
Its an i7 with 12 gigs of ram and a 1.5 gig 580. Its not a bad system but for BF4 I'd consider it 'minimum".
BF4 is tricky, at the default settings it looks completely horrible. After tuning down post processing etc. the image actually looks much better. Many people complain it looks like playing under water and I'm not surprised if they didn't alter the default settings.
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Any opinion by you Gurus on whether or not 750 watts will be enough to run SLI GTX 580s?
I can afford another 580, "hopefully a used one", but do I also need to upgrade my power as well?
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Calculate by yourself: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp (http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp)
I'd recommend setting the capacitor aging to at least 30% in the last slot for some headroom.
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Minimum system requirements for the GTX 580 is 600 W, with 244 W for the card alone. This is one reason why I use two 750 W PSUs. The extra leads come in handy for additional devices and fans (and what ever). It's the same for the 780s, but even the 680s that are less power hungry are only a little lighter on the requirements.
I know you didn't ask, but:
One thing about using two PSUs is that you can split up the cables between two UPS devices, also. When matching up a UPS to a PSU you want to find the Output Watt Capacity, which in every case I have seen has been less than 2/3s the published VA rating.
So for a single 750 W PSU you will need a 1500 VA UPS, and for a 1500 W PSU you will need a 2200 VA UPS. That won't give you much battery time, and they are not cheap so there's even more to consider.
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Minimum system requirements for the GTX 580 is 600 W, with 244 W for the card alone. This is one reason why I use two 750 W PSUs. The extra leads come in handy for additional devices and fans (and what ever). It's the same for the 780s, but even the 680s that are less power hungry are only a little lighter on the requirements.
I know you didn't ask, but:
One thing about using two PSUs is that you can split up the cables between two UPS devices, also. When matching up a UPS to a PSU you want to find the Output Watt Capacity, which in every case I have seen has been less than 2/3s the published VA rating.
So for a single 750 W PSU you will need a 1500 VA UPS, and for a 1500 W PSU you will need a 2200 VA UPS. That won't give you much battery time, and they are not cheap so there's even more to consider.
UPS is usually necessary in only two use scenarios: 1) You're working and you must make sure you don't lose data in a case of power outage. This is easyest handled by using a power laptop instead of a desktop for most data intensive works. If you do CAD like Chalenge then a laptop may not be enough even with a firepro or quadro. 2) Your electricity is horribly bad and you need a quality UPS to filter it. This is not necessary anywhere I live anyway.
For the rest of the people losing power suddenly mostly just means the abruption of gameplay, no big deal.
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I disagree with everything Ripley just posted.
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I had a ups for about 5 years. never actually used it, till the battery needed replacement. by then I had a ps with power surge, so nothing happened to my computer and monitor when the power went out 4 months ago.
semp
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I disagree with everything Ripley just posted.
In this case I'm with MrRipley. I know the state and town and other public authorities as well as major companies have UPS, but I haven't seen one in any of the numerous smaller offices I have visited. Yet they may have been hidden from me, but I doubt not. As Ripley said, our electricity is quite clean and stable especially in town areas. Things may be different in the countryside where the milking machine may use the same major fuse as the computer and the transformer is in the middle of a thunder sensitive field. As a rule of thumb I've said to my customers asking about their need of a UPS and surge protector that if their lights flash often and/or they have power outages regularly during near or distant storms, such devices may prove useful. Otherwise the experience would be similar to what Semp said.
Chalenge, could you please argument your point about the necessarity of an UPS in regular household use just for me to learn and maybe change my opinion about it?
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Okay, before this goes the rest of the page without anyone coming to agreement I will outline what happens in the event of a power crash. In this case I will discuss first the issue involving a transformer failure, because we just experienced this within the last week.
First off, this problem was caused by a squirrel stepping, rather than jumping, from line to tree. ZAP! Squirrel explodes into fried tidbits, fur flies, toenails are embedded into tree and wire. The power instantly fails. One UPS in my house dies immediately from electric surge (I'm protected by the electric companies own equipment from this happening). Because the battery dies the computer shuts off catastrophically and loses the data. The DSL line puts off smoke under the house, but we don't see it. The router melts down internally. Gone, but not before also taking one motherboard with it. One out of fourteen isn't bad, I guess.
So, this got me interested in going back and reading up on the possibilities of electrical problems. They are:
Surge: Power outside of the design limitations of equipment will cause premature failure, possibly complete failure of all electronics.
Sag: (most common) power dropouts that do not lead to power failures will still lead to data loss, corrupted data, and reduce efficiency and life span (particularly hard drive motors).
Blackout (total loss of electric): Data loss. Potential for FAT to be lost and all data on a hard drive to be lost.
Spike: Catastrophic hardware damage. Data will be lost.
Noise: A noisy line leads to glitches and errors in running programs and data files.
Noise will usually have the same affect as a failing PSU. Note that in all cases data is lost, or potentially lost.
What a UPS provides is another level of protection from these problems, as well as allowing for a graceful exit from Windows in the case of power issues.
Pretty much that's a big deal.
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Thanks, that explained a lot. I believe there are variables in each country, though. IIRC that there's more than what's evident in the 120 or 240 volts and 60 or 50 amperes. Like fried squirrels... Never actually heard about one causing such trouble even inside a transformer here, although some have been found inside them! Birds sometimes die in the power current cables (380 V) but they usually don't cause major troubles either. Underground cables from transformers to houses have further diminished problems like falling trees.
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What I said about surges, sags, spikes, and so on are universal to electricity. Your area may have a delivery system that is more stable, but it's those things you have no way to measure that lead to sudden failures. Noise for instance, or power sags can in some instances have no visible indicator that there is an issue, but then suddenly you have a dead hard drive. I would prefer to lose a UPS over a motherboard, because I know it won't stop there.
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Another thing about UPS systems. The local "Geek Squad" will sell you a UPS that is barely adequate. Their idea of efficiency is to sell you something rated very closely to your systems maximum power requirement, or something like an 80-90% load factor. So, at full load your system will run on batteries from four to eight minutes. However, UPS devices are designed to run efficiently at as little as 30% load. So, there is nothing wrong with buying a UPS that provides more than you need. Your pocket book is the only limiting factor, aside from the amount of space the unit will take up.
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Challenge is quite correct about this. Brief power interruptions (on-off-on) can cause massive amounts of damage to electronic devices. None of them are designed for an open ended surge of power. Mobile devices are even more susceptible to damage.
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Understood and agreed about spikes and other anomalies causing damages. That wasn't exactly what I was talking about, though. What I was after is, if UPS gave significant advantage in areas where power is stable except for human errors. :salute
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A simple surge protector is enough in most cases, UPS is just overkill. Most motherboards are configured to return to power off state in case of a loss of electricity so they're not exposed to the dangerous power cycle Skuzzy mentioned.
I've owned literally dozens of PCs and Macs during the years and I have never lost a single one to a power spike. Even if I did it would be far cheaper to just replace the component or two that may get damaged instead of getting an expensive UPS and having to replace its batteries regularly.
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"Literally dozens" sounds like you have had the opportunity to get rid of them before their possible faults were starting to show... I'm on my fifth build/upgrade since Jan 1997, this one dating from about six years ago upgraded on the way with a new psu (preparing for future upgrades) and second hand cpu and gpu. No surge protector nor ups, and I have several times been surfing during a thunderstorm roaring within a mile. We have never lost any electric equipment here due to spikes, surge or anything else than normal aging. Even the amount of replaced nic's can be counted with my fingers during these nine years I've been doing my techie thing inside a circle of 10 miles or so, most of the cases having been deep in the countryside.
BTW how does this help anyone understanding SLI? :t
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"Literally dozens" sounds like you have had the opportunity to get rid of them before their possible faults were starting to show... I'm on my fifth build/upgrade since Jan 1997, this one dating from about six years ago upgraded on the way with a new psu (preparing for future upgrades) and second hand cpu and gpu. No surge protector nor ups, and I have several times been surfing during a thunderstorm roaring within a mile. We have never lost any electric equipment here due to spikes, surge or anything else than normal aging. Even the amount of replaced nic's can be counted with my fingers during these nine years I've been doing my techie thing inside a circle of 10 miles or so, most of the cases having been deep in the countryside.
BTW how does this help anyone understanding SLI? :t
All my hardware has found a new home in the hands of friends or relatives. They've all lived a long and healthy life despite never running under UPS. The same can be said about most hardware I've handled professionally. There was a bad patch of PSUs that self destructed late 1990s but that's about it.
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Great thread. Im right at the cut off for power and to put a 2nd 580GTX in wouldnt make sense without a power upgrade as well.
So Im thinking a Corsair 1200.
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A simple surge protector is enough in most cases, UPS is just overkill.
There's another comment I completely disagree with. I do not believe there is a European electrical grid that is stable enough to make that statement, nor will there be ever. Electric anything is just a failure waiting to happen. The problem with surge protectors is that they save you once, if they save you at all. Consumer grade surge protectors are not that good, and a huge percentage of them are not even good enough to save you once. And this is nothing new. This discussion has repeated itself on this very board since at least 2008. You do need to do your homework when you buy anything. Surge protectors are no exception, but the same is true for any UPS you might consider. For instance, check out this page for "waveform type"
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500
and you see that the device I chose uses "Sine wave." Some devices use "approximated sine wave," which translates to "stepped approximation of sine wave" or more correctly "stepped square wave."
When using a PFC type PSU it is highly recommended that you use a true sine wave UPS. The potential is that during the switch from wall power to battery the PFC PSU may shutdown if the switch over is not fast enough. A simulated sine wave (stepped sine wave) may not always be a problem or it may not always work.
It all just depends how far down the rabbit hole you care to go as to how much you need to know, but claiming that "simple surge protector is enough" is a complete fallacy.
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There's another comment I completely disagree with. I do not believe there is a European electrical grid that is stable enough to make that statement, nor will there be ever. Electric anything is just a failure waiting to happen. The problem with surge protectors is that they save you once, if they save you at all. Consumer grade surge protectors are not that good, and a huge percentage of them are not even good enough to save you once. And this is nothing new. This discussion has repeated itself on this very board since at least 2008. You do need to do your homework when you buy anything. Surge protectors are no exception, but the same is true for any UPS you might consider. For instance, check out this page for "waveform type"
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500
and you see that the device I chose uses "Sine wave." Some devices use "approximated sine wave," which translates to "stepped approximation of sine wave" or more correctly "stepped square wave."
When using a PFC type PSU it is highly recommended that you use a true sine wave UPS. The potential is that during the switch from wall power to battery the PFC PSU may shutdown if the switch over is not fast enough. A simulated sine wave (stepped sine wave) may not always be a problem or it may not always work.
It all just depends how far down the rabbit hole you care to go as to how much you need to know, but claiming that "simple surge protector is enough" is a complete fallacy.
I'm sorry but you're dead wrong. I didn't even use surge protectors for years and I never EVER had a hardware failure that could be traced to anything but a manufacturing defect. And even those were extremely rare.
So shelling the price of a new PC to a UPS? Complete nonsense. Even if your hardware does get toasted gues what? You get to UPGRADE instead of dropping your money in the bucket. Also as you pointed out the UPS may not even save your computer, the end result may be exactly that dangerous fast power on-off-on cycle when the UPS drops off network and switches to battery :)
UPS is necessary only for work use if you absolutely need a workstation and deal with large in-memory datasets. Those are rare unless you do CAD or work *gasp* with large Excel / Word files. If you're worried about cache you can always install a battery/flash backed controller. Many people also forget that having UPS for the computer is not enough, you need to run your monitor(s) through it also if you plan to actually do anything during the battery backed period such as save open files etc. This will boost the already expensive UPS price even more.
The reality is anyway that any power failures are extremely rare and most of them are planned so the event of power cutting right in the middle of your work is very unlikely. For gaming machine? Meh.
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I agree that the electrical grid is prone to failures. On today's paper I read that a mammal much bigger than a squirrel got killed by an electric shock while intruding a transformer in a closed-for-demolition office complex. The incident happened on Saturday at 2 in the early morning. It cut the power off of an apartment house area in a southern Finnish town of 250,000 inhabitants for hours.
The other man survived, alcohol may have played a role in the incident.
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I agree that the electrical grid is prone to failures. On today's paper I read that a mammal much bigger than a squirrel got killed by an electric shock while intruding a transformer in a closed-for-demolition office complex. The incident happened on Saturday at 2 in the early morning. It cut the power off of an apartment house area in a southern Finnish town of 250,000 inhabitants for hours.
The other man survived, alcohol may have played a role in the incident.
Yep but guess how many computers died due to that even though none of the consumers ran UPS for sure? I'd put my money on a round figure of zero.
My house is literally filled with all kinds of electronics which are plugged in even during thunderstorms. TVs, stereos, radios, computers, power tools, power tool loaders, light controllers, lamps, measuring instruments, household appliances etc. None have ever failed due to thunder or power loss.
So no, I'm not quite ready yet to invest to a UPS that would cost or exceed the price of any hardware it was meant to protect in my house :) I'll take my chances and the insurance company will cover the damages if any occur.
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I'm sorry but you're dead wrong.
Nope. Furthermore, for you to continue to encourage people to run their systems without protection is a sure sign of negligence.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/327183-28-after-power-outage-dead
http://superuser.com/questions/290487/computer-does-not-switch-on-after-power-outage
http://www.daniweb.com/hardware-and-software/pc-hardware/threads/67210/computer-wont-start-after-power-outage
And I could go on all day. Many of these people use surge protectors. There are thousands of such posts online. Electronics are sensitive equipment, yet somehow you think they are protected by magic somehow. Nope.
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One reason you have been led astray is your geological position. You just don't see the same problems that we do from lightning storms, as one source of problems. Finland is not even on the scale of registered lightning events, because you just don't see storms up there. Lightning is more tropical, and Central Africa would be one place you probably would not want to set up a data center. Still, this lack of electrical experience on your part (Ripley) has led you into a false sense of security. Where I am, and where I have lived previously (South Florida) has led me to become very familiar with the issue. In Europe you almost never have to deal with it, by comparison. This has actually led to a situation where your electrical grid is very much less forgiving, even though you will probably never see an event that would bring that to your attention. Sun spots, or maybe a pulse weapon would probably shut you down, but it won't be an electrical storm.
But to take the extraordinary step of claiming that electronics are not sensitive to variation is a leap I doubt even lemmings would take.
http://geology.com/articles/lightning-map.shtml
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Before this gets nasty, couldn't we just accept that there are differences in grids in different countries? We don't have electric light bulbs which have been almost constantly on for 111 years. Although we've played with electricity since late 1870's, there were quite a lot of households totally without it in 1960's in densely populated countryside areas. We also lost one third of our water power capacity in WW2. What I'm trying to say, is that although we've had the know how since Edison built the lights to Finlayson's weavery, our grid is quite new compared to e.g. USA where there has been no massive bomb raids against energy strategic targets ever. I believe it makes a difference if parts of the grid have been in use for over a hundred years or only one third of that. Not to mention the different climate as you mentioned. Our main concern has been trees falling over the lines due to snow in wintertime and even that is slowly becoming obsolete when they put the wires underground.
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Oh absolutely! You should see all that our country has to face when it comes to the power grid. It's actually quite nasty! I wouldn't want to live in California (for any reason really) because I think that next to Papua New Guinea, or Guam it's probably the least stable electrical grid in the world.
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Nope. Furthermore, for you to continue to encourage people to run their systems without protection is a sure sign of negligence.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/327183-28-after-power-outage-dead
http://superuser.com/questions/290487/computer-does-not-switch-on-after-power-outage
http://www.daniweb.com/hardware-and-software/pc-hardware/threads/67210/computer-wont-start-after-power-outage
And I could go on all day. Many of these people use surge protectors. There are thousands of such posts online. Electronics are sensitive equipment, yet somehow you think they are protected by magic somehow. Nope.
It's far more cost effective to replace the dead hardware with a new and faster one than investing to an UPS IF the hardware dies in the first place. Which it doesn't. You can dig 0.001% cases as much as you want using Google and I can show you a million opposite cases for each one you find.
For sure 99% of AH user base never runs UPS or even surge protectors and they're chugging along nicely all these years.
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No you can't. When lightning strikes and no equipment is lost the complaints are zero. You are just trying to justify an untenable opinion. This is all anyone here needs to see:
Challenge is quite correct about this. Brief power interruptions (on-off-on) can cause massive amounts of damage to electronic devices. None of them are designed for an open ended surge of power. Mobile devices are even more susceptible to damage.
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No you can't. When lightning strikes and no equipment is lost the complaints are zero. You are just trying to justify an untenable opinion. This is all anyone here needs to see:
Nope. I just explained to you that the power cycle is by default prevented in most motherboards so at most your PSU is going to see the turnaround. Further more my insurance covers lightning strikes. Nobodys going to invest a price of a second PC to an UPS just in case something, sometime might happen. I prefer to buy a faster new PC for the same money if the old one should accidentally break.
I've handled dozens of workstations, home computers and gazillion of other devices over the years which were not protected in any way. Yet they've all survived. Believe it or not. If an UPS would have been purchased for all those devices along the years the hardware costs would have doubled or tripled with zero returns :D
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You're stretching the cost of a UPS a bit there Ripley. I bought two UPS devices for system for less than I paid for a single graphics card. You will never be able to buy an entire system for that same price. Furthermore, an adequate surge protector will cost you half of the price of a single UPS, and the UPS provides surge protection also!
Then you speak about a PSU preventing power cycling? Sorry, but that's just untrue. Also, why are you concentrating on surges? The most common issue is sags. Sags damage equipment slowly over time. You claim that you have never known of a PC failure because of electricity, yet there are thousands cited via Google including many that were not saved by surge protection.
The one instance I cited where I lost a motherboard came through across the network line, not through the UPS. On the system that lost the UPS it was battery failure, and the motherboard survived.
So the only thing your posts have accomplished is demonstrated your lack of knowledge concerning electricity, and your inability to understand the written word.
Just last February I recall reading a story where a German forensic team had determined the precise moment a recording had been made because of the electric hum from appliances in nearby sockets. So, I know your electric grid suffers the same issues as anyone else. The only thing saving you so far has been the fact that lightning storms are less frequent. Ignorance is bliss as they say.
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Back to cards, I just ordered a GTX780. If anyone is interested in my 580 it will be for sale in a week or two, "I havnt really done much gaming in it". When lightening is around I shut down. I dont even want to take a chance. Last summer I saved myself from a bad hit by shutting down during a storm that knocked us out of electric and cable for two days. Other then that our power is very stable.
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MOV based surge protectors are only good for X amount of surges. They all stop protecting from surges after they hit their limit. If your surge protector does not have an indicator showing the device is no longer protecting, then you might as well only have a power strip, because that is what they become after they have taken the maximum hits they can take.
A UPS takes it to another stage, which will continue to protect for the life of the UPS.
A UPS can be a far cheaper, long term, investment. It will depend on the quality of power in your area. If you live in a large apartment complex or condominium building. then using something is only smart, as the power in those complexes will always be dirty.
We are in an apartment right now, and the power is absolutely filthy. I installed power line filters for every electronic device we have. The computers get a UPS. Power line filters are a step above surge protectors as they continuously remove noise from the power. The difference between active and passive filtering. Virtually all surge protectors are passive devices.
While active surge protectors and filters cost more, they last significantly longer than a passive surge protector will.
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You're stretching the cost of a UPS a bit there Ripley. I bought two UPS devices for system for less than I paid for a single graphics card. You will never be able to buy an entire system for that same price. Furthermore, an adequate surge protector will cost you half of the price of a single UPS, and the UPS provides surge protection also!
An UPS large enough to actually do something will cost you an arm and a leg. I see that UPS prices have come down lately, basic setup is not too much but still warrant the question of ever getting return for the money. The cheapest UPS:es do not do proper power filtering for example anyway so you're still not protected against the most detrimental of power problems, phase changes and fluctuating AC frequencies (if such exists, in Finland the grid is pretty much rock solid. All power that we import from Russia for example goes through a complete AC-DC-AC cycle).
Then you speak about a PSU preventing power cycling? Sorry, but that's just untrue. Also, why are you concentrating on surges? The most common issue is sags. Sags damage equipment slowly over time. You claim that you have never known of a PC failure because of electricity, yet there are thousands cited via Google including many that were not saved by surge protection.
Reading comprehension please! I said the motherboard protects itself from switching back on immediately after a power cut. For every case of failure on Google you will find 100 000 of his neighbours who did not get a failure from the same power problem. Your searches are just not worth anything in this discussion. It's like doing Google searches from Toyota owners forum to 'prove' the statistics are wrong and Toyotas are in reality very unreliable :)
The one instance I cited where I lost a motherboard came through across the network line, not through the UPS. On the system that lost the UPS it was battery failure, and the motherboard survived.
How do you know the battery didn't fail on its own? How do you know your motherboard died not because of a manufacturing fault but something that came from the network? :)
So the only thing your posts have accomplished is demonstrated your lack of knowledge concerning electricity, and your inability to understand the written word.
Hah gimme a break! Again: 99% of AH user base for SURE never bought an UPS in their lives and they continue to play without problems. Why is that? Don't you think they'd be better off investing to a new high-end display card instead of buying the UPS they'll most likely never even need?
Just last February I recall reading a story where a German forensic team had determined the precise moment a recording had been made because of the electric hum from appliances in nearby sockets. So, I know your electric grid suffers the same issues as anyone else. The only thing saving you so far has been the fact that lightning storms are less frequent. Ignorance is bliss as they say.
Yes you go buy a house full of UPS:s to protect your electronics which will be obsolete in 2 years anyway. I'll take my chances and use that money to buy new stuff instead :D I can't recall when was the last time any electronic device would die on me. Light bulbs have burned I give you that. You reckon I should run them through UPS? :D We still have our wide screen TV which we bought when we got married 14 years ago, now stored in the kids room. Works flawlessly - never been surge protected and it has been plugged in during thunderstorms too.
Oh, and I live in Finland not in Germany.
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Ripley, it would be just too much of a coincidence to have a powerful surge have the affect it did and then choose to attribute the loses to something else.
I forgot you just like to argue, despite all the evidence proving you are on the wrong side of the argument.
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Ripley, it would be just too much of a coincidence to have a powerful surge have the affect it did and then choose to attribute the loses to something else.
I forgot you just like to argue, despite all the evidence proving you are on the wrong side of the argument.
The evidence is against you here I'm sorry. Device breakages due to power problems are extremely rare and the power companies are responsible for any damages a power out caused by their scheduled work causes for example. Last time our house had a scheduled power out the power company sent a notice about this actually. Lightning strikes they can't cover but home insurance covers damages caused by forces of nature. Insurance companies actually recommend to leave even modems plugged in during thunder to avoid a possible electric arch from sockets if the phone line takes a direct hit. They prefer the modem burning instead of the rest of the house.
So you had this powerful surge that broke stuff despite the UPS you had. What was the net effect in the end? How many times in your lifetime have you experienced a surge like that? Once? Twice? It's almost like reinforcing your house roof for the chance of a meteorite hit.
I haven't seen any private person buy an UPS to their home so far. Even at office use they're extremely rare and usually used only with servers.
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We have sufficient storm activities here to cause regular momentary power outages, especially during Spring when we get a high number of hail storms. Then during the fall, we get a very high number of thunderstorms.
The number of times my UPS and power filters have saved equipment in our home is significant. I have had neighbors lose a significant amount of hardware ranging from alarm clocks to televisions (lots of those) to computers every year.
What may be true for your area of the world, may not be true for another area. Making a blanket statement that no one needs a UPS or power line filters is quite incorrect. In your very narrow scope, it may be quite appropriate for you to not need a filter or UPS. However, that scope may not apply to the rest of the world.
In the U.S., power companies are not responsible for any damage done when they turn on the power, after repairs are made.
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We have sufficient storm activities here to cause regular momentary power outages, especially during Spring when we get a high number of hail storms. Then during the fall, we get a very high number of thunderstorms.
The number of times my UPS and power filters have saved equipment in our home is significant. I have had neighbors lose a significant amount of hardware ranging from alarm clocks to televisions (lots of those) to computers every year.
What may be true for your area of the world, may not be true for another area. Making a blanket statement that no one needs a UPS or power line filters is quite incorrect. In your very narrow scope, it may be quite appropriate for you to not need a filter or UPS. However, that scope may not apply to the rest of the world.
In the U.S., power companies are not responsible for any damage done when they turn on the power, after repairs are made.
Perhaps in your area things are bad then, can't tell. Somehow I just can't imagine people buying UPS:s in masses even at your neighborhood. Nowadays electronics are almost a disposable commodity with a relatively short lifespan (before it's outdated). That's why I wouldn't invest a dime protecting the hardware that I would most likely want to upgrade soon anyway. Probably if I would suffer from burned hardware every 12-16 months I would invest into a quality UPS.
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Uhmm, I do not replace electronics for years. My personal computer gets an update once every five years, or so. Our televisions are going on four and five years old and I have no intention of replacing them.
I do not consider $2,000.00+ (U.S. dollars) products to be "commodity" items. A $300.00 power line filter, which lasts for about ten years, is a pretty good investment for us.
Weather is the issue here. High winds, softball size hail, and severe thunderstorms will tax any electric grid.
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Uhmm, I do not replace electronics for years. My personal computer gets an update once every five years, or so. Our televisions are going on four and five years old and I have no intention of replacing them.
I do not consider $2,000.00+ (U.S. dollars) products to be "commodity" items. A $300.00 power line filter, which lasts for about ten years, is a pretty good investment for us.
Weather is the issue here. High winds, softball size hail, and severe thunderstorms will tax any electric grid.
Down here they're actively digging all electric lines under ground to prevent failures from snow, falling trees etc. I wouldn't consider a 2000 dollar computer to be 'commodity' either if it would blow totally. Maybe I just can't imagine your conditions down here. I could never imagine anyone would have any need for an UPS at home use.
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i once lived in an apartment that was subject to brown outs and surges any time wind and/or rain hit. blew 1 power supply and almost fried another pc before i put a cheap apc 1500va ups in line. put my computer, modem, tv and phone on the ups. never had another computer problem in that apartment.
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Down here they're actively digging all electric lines under ground to prevent failures from snow, falling trees etc. I wouldn't consider a 2000 dollar computer to be 'commodity' either if it would blow totally. Maybe I just can't imagine your conditions down here. I could never imagine anyone would have any need for an UPS at home use.
It's not just the computer. The televisions cost more.
Underground power lines do not help that much. It is the power transformers, which are exposed to the weather, that take the beating and cause problems.
I only have a UPS on the computers. You know how long it takes for Linux to fsck 16TB of drive storage?!?!? Or having to start a render all over again, that was going to take a couple of weeks to do anyway?!?!!? If I can get those systems down cleanly, I can start where the render left off and I can get the servers back online in minutes, rather than hours.
I use active line filtration on the rest of the expensive gear.
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It's not just the computer. The televisions cost more.
Underground power lines do not help that much. It is the power transformers, which are exposed to the weather, that take the beating and cause problems.
I only have a UPS on the computers. You know how long it takes for Linux to fsck 16TB of drive storage?!?!? Or having to start a render all over again, that was going to take a couple of weeks to do anyway?!?!!? If I can get those systems down cleanly, I can start where the render left off and I can get the servers back online in minutes, rather than hours.
I use active line filtration on the rest of the expensive gear.
Most home users do not have render farms running though ;)
TVs and stuff do not worry me, I can get a far better new tv now for the insurance money compared to the time when I bought it. I guess you have to 'insure' your hardware yourself with UPS if you lack coverage for nature phenomenon.
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Not worth it to eat the increased insurance premiums from filing claims, and to cover the deductible. Let's see, for the last 5 years I would have, potentially, been out of pocket an additional $2,000.00 in deductibles and eating a 15% increase in my insurance rates, which never goes back down.
Absolutely not worth it.
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Not worth it to eat the increased insurance premiums from filing claims, and to cover the deductible. Let's see, for the last 5 years I would have, potentially, been out of pocket an additional $2,000.00 in deductibles and eating a 15% increase in my insurance rates, which never goes back down.
Absolutely not worth it.
I have a full coverage with my house insurance so it comes with the package. Not that I've ever needed it though. If my TV has survived 14 years with no surge protectors or UPSes I doubt an UPS would extend its life any further. It's going for recycle now anyway.
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The next time you see the repair/maintenance crew out at the local cell tower you should go by and ask them for a look at the batteries. VTT says that, yes, even Finland has an average of 11 hours of downtime per household, so it's just a matter of time.
Oh, and if your system is engaged in writing data to the HDD when that power fails, your surge protector will not help, and your entire system could very well be lost.
But keep the faith!
:aok
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See Rule #4
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I had a back up power supply when I bought my first computer 7 or 8 years ago. it finally died this year. if I remember correctly I lost power once or twice in that time. both due to the santa ana winds which are a killer around here. when the battery finally died earlier this year, I just bought a power strip. the power went out two weeks ago due to high winds again. first time this year. my system is still up and running along with all my tv's. I just use a good power strip.
semp
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UPS devices usually do not die, but the batteries age more quickly when they are not cycled regularly (usual lifespan is 3-5 years). You can usually replace the batteries in them for $40 and stay protected. Surge protectors only cover the few outages you see, but do nothing for power sags and noise which are the larger portion of trouble.
You can cycle a UPS fairly quickly too. Just put a load on them and measure the voltage until it's down to 70% of the minimum float value. Then you can return to normal use. If you do that every 30 days you can nearly double their life span. You can extend it even further by installing the UPS devices into a cabinet that is climate controlled.
You can also use larger cells (larger power pools) outside of the UPS cabinets and use the same UPS as inverter/monitor.
EDIT: Removed "jargon"
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"climate controlled cabinet"? sorry boss but my refrigerator is reserved for food and a couple of beers. I have had my tv, dvr, surround sytem, etc., on the same power strip for about 6 years and it still hasnt failed me. I actually wish it did so i would have an excuse to buy a 60 inch tv instead of the "little" 42 I have.
my ups lasted me about 6 years and to be honest with you when the power failed my computer wasnt even on. will I buy another ups? nope. never again. the money wanst worth the return on investment in my situation. for somebody else it might be, but it's not for me. same as I told mrripley when i said an ssd wont really make a difference for me. I still spawn on the runway way before most of my squadies do.
i used to work on an insurance company and I understand a bit about risk.
semp
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Well, if your hardware isn't worth much then you won't miss it when it does die. There are two types of people (as they say), those that have and those that will.
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same as I told mrripley when i said an ssd wont really make a difference for me. I still spawn on the runway way before most of my squadies do.
That's almost only true with AH. Try the same from bootup or most modern games and you'll get totally different results.
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That is because most "modern" games have absolutely horrible loaders so you need the hardware to overcome the deficiencies of bad programming.
We actually do look at most games to see what they are doing.
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That is because most "modern" games have absolutely horrible loaders so you need the hardware to overcome the deficiencies of bad programming.
We actually do look at most games to see what they are doing.
This wasn't a jab pointed at you guys. Many other game titles are just vastly larger compared to AH so they can't be loaded to ram all at once.
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This wasn't a jab pointed at you guys. Many other game titles are just vastly larger compared to AH so they can't be loaded to ram all at once.
I did not take it as a jab. I was poking at the sloppy code many games have in it today which is forcing people to buy hardware to work around that bad code.
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That's almost only true with AH. Try the same from bootup or most modern games and you'll get totally different results.
I only play aces high and world of tanks. in both I spawn way before my squadies do. that's the reason for me it doesnt make sense to buy as it wont really help me a bit. but that's my own situation, it might not be true for others.
Well, if your hardware isn't worth much then you won't miss it when it does die. There are two types of people (as they say), those that have and those that will.
I have spent about 3k on my computer system, including all accessories. I have a couple of flat screen tv's that I paid about 2k for both. about another 1k in sound system, dvd...
I am 48 (49 next week :old:), i have owned many tv's and computers in my life time. including friends and family, I do not recall of anybody losing any kind of equipment due to a power surge or power failure.
I use a power strip with power surge protection just in case and it meets my needs. again what works for me doesnt necessarily work for others.
semp