Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mongoose on September 05, 2019, 08:11:15 PM
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When flying a 109, what is that thumping noise when you turn?
Keep the answers clean, please.
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That noise is the leading edge slats deploying. They work automatically at low speeds or high angles of attack.
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When flying a 109, what is that thumping noise when you turn?
Keep the answers clean, please.
It's your seatbelt flapping in the breeze. Tuck it inside next time! :old:
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When flying a 109, what is that thumping noise when you turn?
Keep the answers clean, please.
Slats are high lift devices on the front of wings. Slats allow a high speed wing to have better slow speed turn performance.
Slats in the 109 deploy automatically by air pressure changes caused by increasing the Angle of Attack. When the wing gets close to max AOA the slats deploy and the wing has a new higher max AOA before stalling.
If you look at the wings you'll see you can run the slats in and out by changing pitch input.
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Your wingman wants in.
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Devil and FLS, thank you for the explanation. That's actually a pretty cool innovation.
And Shuffler, ha ha.
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Your wingman wants in.
https://images.app.goo.gl/AcdFAZUz8MCk9AZJA
This guy?
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
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That's better! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190906/1c8dd238104f5ffce3c3cf3a4bcd6695.jpg)
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
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He..... wants..... in......
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Devil and FLS, thank you for the explanation. That's actually a pretty cool innovation.
And Shuffler, ha ha.
You’re welcome.
Ha ha.
Also, slats are PRIMARILY used to increase the critical angle of attack thereby reducing stall speeds. Some airplanes call them “maneuvering slats” like the F-4. Better turn performance is a byproduct of the increased stall margin.
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Devil and FLS, thank you for the explanation. That's actually a pretty cool innovation.
And Shuffler, ha ha.
The F-4E had leading edge slats that programmed automatically. They didn’t make any thumping sound, although I could occasionally hear thumping from the back seat when the radar was acting up and the WSO was kicking the bottom of the console to get it back in the game.
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Puma,
the leading edge slats were programed? Plz tell me more as I assumed they worked like the 109's did,just some roller bearing and air flow. On the rino were they powered???
Inquiring minds...... :x
:salute
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Bratwurst rolling around in the fuselage because Klaus was hungry and dropped it when working on the aeroplane
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It's been nearly 34 years since I last worked on an F-4E or G or J or S model phantom II......
Best recollection I have Morfiend is they were computer programmed hydraulic leading edge slats on the E and S model....but my memory is not what it used to be....
TC
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The current variable geometry wings are capable of changing not only the leading edge curvature, but also the trailing edge curvature and overall airfoil shape. The Wright brothers would be amazed at our witchcraft.
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Puma,
the leading edge slats were programed? Plz tell me more as I assumed they worked like the 109's did,just some roller bearing and air flow. On the rino were they powered???
Inquiring minds...... :x
:salute
More, for your reading pleasure, some excerpts out of the F-4E-1:
“The slats and flaps system is an integrated system that provides an automatic slat configuration for inflight maneuvering.....”
“The flaps and slats are electrically selected and hydraulically actuated.....”
“With the slats flaps switch in NORM, the maneuvering slats operate automatically as a function of AOA. As the AOA is increased to approximately 11.5 units, the slats will extend and remain extended until AOA is reduced to approximately 10.5 units.”
When doing my checkout in the E model, we worked AOA in different scenarios and could feel the slats cycle out and the jet “dig in” with about an extra third of a G, as I remember. One of the very useful things in the slatted E, was the ability to use aileron in addition to the rudder to do maneuvering turns. In the hard wing D model I flew at the school house, ONLY rudder was used for maneuvering turns. If any aileron was applied, the D would quickly depart controlled flight into “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride”. The E was a blast to fly in air to air maneuvering into the phone booth because it could be taken to the edge of the envelope after getting some proficiency in the jet.
Hope this answered your inquiring mind. :salute
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Puma regarding the below quoted line
The flaps and slats are electrically selected and hydraulically actuated
Are you referring to the leading edge flaps?
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Puma regarding the below quoted line
Are you referring to the leading edge flaps?
The leading edge slats on the E model.
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The leading edge slats on the E model.
Rgr, I couldn't remember if the E version included the leading edge flaps, along with the leading edge slats or not
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One of the very useful things in the slatted E, was the ability to use aileron in addition to the rudder to do maneuvering turns. In the hard wing D model I flew at the school house, ONLY rudder was used for maneuvering turns. If any aileron was applied, the D would quickly depart controlled flight into “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride”. The E was a blast to fly in air to air maneuvering into the phone booth because it could be taken to the edge of the envelope after getting some proficiency in the jet.
OK, once again permit me to be the dunce in the room. In a normal aeroplane, a turn is accomplished with an aileron-induced bank, with rudder counteracting adverse yaw, while applying back pressure to, basically, pull yourself around the circle. Now you say that you turned enormous heavy brick-like Phantoms, aileron-free, simply by stomping on the rudder...? Wouldn't that sort of hurt, if you were going real fast? Not to mention putting the craft some distance outside the intended turn radius, and perhaps a bit slower?
- oldman (possessing a bewildered yet inquiring mind)
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OK, once again permit me to be the dunce in the room. In a normal aeroplane, a turn is accomplished with an aileron-induced bank, with rudder counteracting adverse yaw, while applying back pressure to, basically, pull yourself around the circle. Now you say that you turned enormous heavy brick-like Phantoms, aileron-free, simply by stomping on the rudder...? Wouldn't that sort of hurt, if you were going real fast? Not to mention putting the craft some distance outside the intended turn radius, and perhaps a bit slower?
- oldman (possessing a bewildered yet inquiring mind)
Well, you are not a dunce. Good question that I didn’t fully explain the statement originally. The issue is at high AOA maneuvering. That’s where in the hard wing Phantoms, the rolling maneuvers had to be down with the rudder. In the E, use it all because of the advantage of leading edge slats.
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Modern day version:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nevzat-%C5%9Fim%C5%9Fek-0b1a1395_new-aircraft-aerodynamic-surface-ugcPost-6580849258189197312-zmqD?fbclid=IwAR3A5Sf2fXS51INYwpqCcrgQ1ntqlum-gdVTRakNh-s6-02aEP33KHr5Aow
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Well, you are not a dunce. Good question that I didn’t fully explain the statement originally. The issue is at high AOA maneuvering. That’s where in the hard wing Phantoms, the rolling maneuvers had to be down with the rudder. In the E, use it all because of the advantage of leading edge slats.
This is also true in Aces High. In a max AOA fight like a slow flat scissors using the rudder will turn you but using aileron will stall one wing.
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This is also true in Aces High. In a max AOA fight like a slow flat scissors using the rudder will turn you but using aileron will stall one wing.
Good point. The F-4 also utilized an aileron and spoiler combination to initiate a bank. For instance, when the stick was moved left to bank left, the left wing spoiler would extend to dump lift, drop the left wing and the right wing aileron would move down and bring the wing up. Of course, the amount of movement for each depended on the amount of stick deflection.
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Thx Puma! :aok :aok
I;m not that informed on jets,sure I can tell one from another but the inner workings of the cockpit are another thing altogether.
I was watching some vids on navy F4's and saw where a pilot put it into toad's ride on purpose,it was sort of like in topgun,you know,I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by. The mig did exactly that.... :devil Was a dogfights episode.
:salute
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Any time my friend! 👍
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Thx Puma! :aok :aok
I;m not that informed on jets,sure I can tell one from another but the inner workings of the cockpit are another thing altogether.
I was watching some vids on navy F4's and saw where a pilot put it into toad's ride on purpose,it was sort of like in topgun,you know,I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by. The mig did exactly that.... :devil Was a dogfights episode.
:salute
John Boyd was famous for that. "Flat-plating the bird." An F-105 driver in Vietnam saved his own arse doing that with a MiG-21 on his six having learned it at the Fighter Weapons School (where Boyd had made it famous in the F-100). I don't know if it was Ed Rasimus that this is in reference to, but he also wrote about doing the same thing in "When Thunder Rolled" about his Thud tour.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQVehFjvaI
This is what I was talking about, It starts around the 30 min mark.
:salute
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQVehFjvaI
This is what I was talking about, It starts around the 30 min mark.
:salute
Skyyr taught me that and I've used it in the MA a few times. Works awesome. I completely forgot about it. HA HA. :cheers:
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I didn't realize Mugs had passed.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/obituaries/sdut-mugs-mckeown-76-1st-top-gun-commander-2015dec21-story.html
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Skyyr taught me that and I've used it in the MA a few times. Works awesome. I completely forgot about it. HA HA. :cheers:
I'm not convinced it would be effective with with prop driven plane unless you had plenty of alt to give up. The F4's thrust let it dump that "E" and powered it's way back into controlled flight.
YMMV.
:salute
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I'm not convinced it would be effective with with prop driven plane unless you had plenty of alt to give up. The F4's thrust let it dump that "E" and powered it's way back into controlled flight.
YMMV.
:salute
It's extremely effective. T:W ratio helps your cause to accelerate, but the airplane will fly once you get it back coordinated and below the critical angle of attack even at idle power. Thrust doesn't make the wing fly--as you know, there's more to it than that. This is a desperation move to avoid a trip to the tower.
The first time I did it was on the deck in a P-51 against an LA-7. He blew by me right into my gunsight, and if I had been a better shot it would have been a kill. Wound up with an assist because it kept me alive long enough for my wingman to come save my butt.
I did it half a dozen other times with similar results and then took some time away from the game which caused me to forget about it. I'll have to try it again if I can think under pressure the next time it is relevant. :salute
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I'm not convinced it would be effective with with prop driven plane unless you had plenty of alt to give up. The F4's thrust let it dump that "E" and powered it's way back into controlled flight.
YMMV.
:salute
It all boils down to energy management and how it’s accomplished in relation to the other guy. Whatever it takes.
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It all boils down to energy management and how it’s accomplished in relation to the other guy. Whatever it takes.
I agree whatever it takes in a RL situation if a mig was behind me shooting basketballs at me I'm sure I would do whatever it takes! That said in a prop powered plane you dont have the luxury of all that thrust so I would think the best choice would be to not let the enemy get your 6. Some simple BFM could accomplish the same thing as far as the game is concerned.
We dont really die so it doesnt matter. :devil
YMMV.
:salute
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I agree whatever it takes in a RL situation if a mig was behind me shooting basketballs at me I'm sure I would do whatever it takes! That said in a prop powered plane you dont have the luxury of all that thrust so I would think the best choice would be to not let the enemy get your 6. Some simple BFM could accomplish the same thing as far as the game is concerned.
We dont really die so it doesnt matter. :devil
YMMV.
:salute
If your goal is to keep someone off your six then fly a jet at high altitude. The dynamics of this game are such that you will wind up with someone on your six no matter how good you are with ACM.
Thrust is relative. Your opponent can't regain his either so he either has to dump, break off, it or overshoot. All of these are better than letting him hang there and hose you. It works. Partly because so few even contemplate it. It's not jet-specific.
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I agree whatever it takes in a RL situation if a mig was behind me shooting basketballs at me I'm sure I would do whatever it takes! That said in a prop powered plane you dont have the luxury of all that thrust so I would think the best choice would be to not let the enemy get your 6. Some simple BFM could accomplish the same thing as far as the game is concerned.
We dont really die so it doesnt matter. :devil
YMMV.
:salute
It’s all relative, jet or prop. The same energy management and BFM techniques still work equally as well, just at different speeds and amounts of available thrust. :aok :salute
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I'm not convinced it would be effective with with prop driven plane unless you had plenty of alt to give up. The F4's thrust let it dump that "E" and powered it's way back into controlled flight.
YMMV.
:salute
To a certain extent, yes. But, if the Rhino got into a very low energy state (say a vertical scissors to a point where the airspeed indicator pegged at the bottom), the only recovery was purely vertical, downhill, in full AB. In my ROK squadron, I was taught to never go pure vertical downhill through 10,000 ft with less than 250 knots indicated because the decent rate and subsequent nose authority wouldn’t allow for a pull out before ground/water impact. So, again, energy management was and is key to survival.
“Speed is life”
“Lose sight, lose fight”
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Puma,
the vid I linked has almost that exact thing in it too! IIRC it wasnt a vertical scissor,more of a vertical reversal but the mig falls off first and the Rhino comes out on the mig's 6.
Proof with enough thrust even a pig will fly! :devil
:salute
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Proof with enough thrust even a pig will fly!
Please don't tell those POTW people. They'll get all hung up on the thrust thing, and it will get embarrassing for everyone.
- oldman
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Proof with enough thrust even a pig will fly! :devil
:salute
Or a refrigerator, as we often referred to the Phantom in these situations.
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Please don't tell those POTW people. They'll get all hung up on the thrust thing, and it will get embarrassing for everyone.
- oldman
I hear ya Old,I know the POTW use a secret methane gas for extra thrust! I just dont want to be the igniter. :devil : :noid
:salute
PS: Puma does the light really go off when you shut the door?... inquiring minds.