Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on August 04, 2001, 05:17:00 PM
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Does anybody have the specs of the RL german 13mm MG and the Browning .50cal MG?Muzzle velocity,destructive power in comparison, etc.
In AH the .50 cal seems to do lot more damage,I`m curious if it was the case in RL.
Right now if i run out of cannon shells in 109,I have to RTB ,coz the 13mm guns are good for nothing.
I engaged a N1K yesterday ,only 13mm ,he sucked really bad,so I was able to stay on he`s tail in a low turning fight.I started the fight with some 350 mg rounds,hit him problably 30-40 times.managed to get a fuel leak on him,but that`s it.
So I`m just curious if the 13mm was really so impotent. I tought it was because the 109 has only 2,and those US planes hit with at least 4 guns at once,but than I remembered Mitsu taking me out with .50 cals in he`s spit in one pass.So that can`t be it.
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Not so.
When I am flying spitfire and run out of cannon ammo, it takes me much more lead to down a con with the 2x .50 than it takes me to kill them with the 2x 13mm on the G10.
The 13mm is VERY MUCH underrated by the people in AH. It is an excellent gun.
To find out by yourself, you can do some tests with someone.
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Something to remember as well...the Niki is a tough plane. Also due to the on-line thing your hits might not be hits to him always...
There are many variables involved... I DO know the YAKS .50 equivelents are nasty.
xBAT
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Numbers have been posted before comparing the two. The mg131 is not ballistically as good as the 50. So its range in AH is far worse. Once a hit is obtained though,I think it would take a pretty dicerning eye to see a difference in damage effect.
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Well, I dont know about range. With both guns I always open up below 300 yards, and at that distance, a 1 second burst to the wing (my usual target) the 13mm will usually break it off with a second or less.
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MG 131 13 x 64B (34.6 g) 900 rpm 730 m/s 17 kg
Browning .50 M2 12.7 x 99 (48.5 g) 750 rpm 870 m/s 30 kg
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/ammo.gif)
The .50 cartridge is the 4th from the left. The Mg131 cartridge is the 5th from the left.
Incidentially the rates of fire for both guns in AH is approximately 800 round per minute.
Hooligan
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so the.50 has more powder there for a faster muzzle velovity. the projectile looks pretty big on the13mm though.
which one is the farthest on he right? 30mm, 40mm?..........man.........whooosh
rav
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(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/ammo.gif)
To save time fumbling around for exact calibers and looking at the above shot Hooligan posted.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think my maker wants to hear from me right now. I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Perhaps some of the confusion is caused by the effectiveness of the 6 50 cal rides. None of the 12.7mm or 13mm have more than 2 guns, right?
Try to take someone down with a spit9 using the 50s only. Hell, better yet, fly a ponyB and try to take someone down with 40 50s. ;) It's tough! I would wager a plane with 6 12.7mms or 6 13mm would be downright nasty!
curly
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I agree curly, its almost pointless to compare the effectivness of US .50cal to German 13mm as all USAAF planes have at leat 2x as many .50cal as does any LW have 13mm.
What does bother me is the range factor. Granted the .50cal is more powerful and more aerodynamic but it hits out waaay to far and is lethal to 900-1000yards in AH. While the German gun is useless at over 200 yards. This matches the historical record of MG131 effective range quite well. But the AH .50cal is effective at nearly twice the historic effective range of 500yards as almost unanimously reported by most WWII USAAF pilots ive read.
Thats the only isssue I see with the guns.
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Here's a way to play with this to get a quick ballpark feel of the differences. Use this ballistic calculator: http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html (http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html)
In Tony Williams' book, Rapid Fire, there is a reprint of a trajectory chart for a Me 410. There are similar ones in a number of other books as well. Set up the same installation with regards to sightline, weapon offset, and zero range. Take the weight and muzzle velocity from that book and adjust BC to match trajectory. I'll make it easy for you.
Muzzle Velocity: 2592.0 ft/sec
Chronograph Distance: 0.000 feet
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.270
Drag Function: G1
Bullet Weight: 525 grains
Sight Height: 35.40 inches
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph
Wind Cross Speed: 0 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Cant Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 0 mph
Target Angle: 90 degrees
Zero Range: 547 yards
Zero Height: 0 inches
Zero Offset: 0 inches
Temperature: 59.6 °F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level
Copy off the results and do it again for the .50 fired from the same installation. I posted a velocity chart in the AC forum awhile back. You can use that to adjust BC to match the chart since bullet weight and MV are known.
Muzzle Velocity: 2845.0 ft/sec
Chronograph Distance: 0.000 feet
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.700
Drag Function: G1
Bullet Weight: 708 grains
Sight Height: 35.40 inches
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph
Wind Cross Speed: 0 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Cant Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 0 mph
Target Angle: 90 degrees
Zero Range: 547 yards
Zero Height: 0 inches
Zero Offset: 0 inches
Temperature: 59.6 °F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level
The results of this setup:
At 1000 yards, the .50 is pushing a 708 grain bullet at 1670 fps, generating 4382 ft-lbs of energy. It's taken 1.38 seconds to travel that distance and it's dropped 11.6 feet below the sightline.(I have an ammunition manual that gives a 1000 yard time of flight of 1.32 seconds with the 45" barrel. Using the same setup but plugging in the higher 2935 fps MV of the 45" barrel, I get 1.333 seconds at 1000 yards.)
At 1000 yards, the 131 is pushing a 525 grain bullet at 838 fps, generating 818 ft-lbs of energy. It's taken 2.37 seconds to travel that distance and it's dropped 42.6 feet below the sightline.
You can build a more precise model or quibble over the details, but that won't show the two rounds to be similar because they're not. The 131 has better performance in AH than the above comparison anyway. A lot better.
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Either your an awesome BS artist or you know what your talking about ;) Seems pretty decisive to me. Thanks Pyro.
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So does that mean we American oppurtunist scum should be able to whine now that we have proof that you LuftWeinies have better guns than you really should? :D
THey whine for realism.. give them the crappy guns they so desire.
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pyro so that mean at closer range biger weith transport more kinetic energy , if your balistic computer have real military origin can be corect but dont think so
so at 200 yard deaceleration cant be 2 time low as at final range
can be right 50 caliber can travel much much biger distance but about aiming and gun platform stability at that distance hmmm that other story and the cumulative dmg the probablity to hit at same place where entereed first bulet and last is zero
will be very nice if ve can your oficial grap on LW guns drop becose now on FE it looks liek MG s are hiting some invisible barier after certain distance and begin slow down and fall down
that critical distance will be nice to se
about they who begin scream the Lw mg s are overmodeled :-)) hmm take your time nothing is perfect even pyro balistic computer ;)
hard to beleve the us 50 caliber have te miracle balance with super destruction and at same time the 7.7 who are light and travel even faster from 50 caliber was not inaf efective so that miracle speed and lighter weight on 50 caliber is not a universal reponse , , be curios how u calculate dmg factor mean kinetic energy transfer ????? ar the LW planes made from stell ? why the paper shoting efect not working ?
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i love to travel
ohhh the atmosphere, ooohhhhh
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Minus:
I believe that you just set a new BBS record for incoherence.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by batdog:
I DO know the YAKS .50 equivelents are nasty.
xBAT[/QB]
hehe i never saw .50 cal in my Yak9U
but i have to say that Yaks MG arent bad. I fireing them both with cannon.
but .50 is nasty homeing missile directer to my engine .. allways .. my enginego to hell after 3-4 ping from .50 to my tail from 700 feets.. damm those.50
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and after all that Minus still insists there's a problem with the LW guns versus the USAAF .50 caliber.
-SW
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I belive what the LW guys want is "selective realism".
Think of it this way. At 1,000 yards a Browning fifty has twice the energy of a .303 at the muzzle. It has allmost 20 times the energy of a 9mm luger or, 4.5 times the energy of a 44 magnum does at the muzzle. There are stories out there of U.S. pilots downing planes at 1,000+ yards.
lazs
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Minus, the .50 isn't lighter, it's heavier. That's one of the reasons it holds trajectory better.
The rest I can't understand :)
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When you are shooting from a moving target to another moving target, the situation gets even worse for slower, lighter, quicker decelerating bullets.
Suppose both aircraft are going 300MPH and the shooter is at a dead 6 position 900 yards behind the target (The ballistics computer wouldn't calculate the 131 round beyond 1525 yards... read on). {Each velocity will be increased by 440 FPS.} [300 MPH = 440 FPS = 146.66 YPS]
At 3.918 seconds, the 131 round has traveled 1474.6 yards. It had to go this far because in 3.918 sec. x 146.66 yds. = 574.6 yards that the enemy AC travels during bullet flight time.
574.6 yards (the AC moved) + 900 yards (originally from the target) = 1474.6 yards.
At this point it has a velocity of 702.9 fps.
But, the AC is going 440 fps, so the impact speed is only 258 fps (176 mph).
At 258 fps, its energy is only 13.6 ft./lbs.
The 50 Cal., on the other hand, only has to fly 1094 yards. It does this in 1.324 seconds.
1.324 sec. x 146.66 yds. = 194.2 yards that the enemy AC travels during bullet flight time.
194.2 yards (the AC moved) + 900 yards (originally from the target) = 1094.2 yards.
At this point it has a velocity of 1884.9 fps.
But, the AC is also going 440 fps, so the impact speed is 1444.9 fps (985 mph).
At 1444.9 fps, its energy is still a whopping 3277 ft./lbs.
So, the Mg 131 travels 1474 yards in 3.9 sec. and has 13.6 ft./lbs. of E.
The 50, however, has traveled 1094 yards in 1.3 sec. and has 3277 ft./lbs. of E.
eskimo
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Of the firepower available on the P-47, it is said.......
....to be able to lift the battleship Missiouri 6 feet out of the water AND one of her destroyer escorts, as well ....
This is from an exhibit at the Millville army Airfeild Museum, Millville, NJ.
Home of the Thunderbolt Pilots Association.
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so 50 caliber bulets is more heavy like 13 ? hmmm
relay geting confused on marks like , GRAIN , yard ,feet and so diferent balist coeficient / cc a litle detail
i think many of u shot with prefect aerodinamic bulet < like m16 use > is a qute human wepon it go in and it go out when no bone in way ;)
and how many of u see a subcaliber 5.5 dmg ?
that stupid german craftmans who modeled and build so useles MG maybe got some reason to use that shape
sory but no 1 superior in my ex military carier vas able shut up my mounth so dont ask it in AH :D
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Minus, I've shot down a few planes using the 7.92mm MGs in the 109F4/109G2/190A5. It just takes consistent hits on the plane, and a LOT of them.
The thing to remember is American planes have several .50calibre machine guns. The German aircraft only have two of the weapons, and somewhat limited ammunition on them. It means you have to shoot well, get a lot of hits concentrated on one piece of the aircraft and don't take shots that require a lot of lead.
-SW
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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and i give up completly ;) btw model them more acurately nothing will change nobady use them so no reason to have overmodeled guns when we not use them , damn when i will finaly learn english ????????? :D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I agree curly, its almost pointless to compare the effectivness of US .50cal to German 13mm as all USAAF planes have at leat 2x as many .50cal as does any LW have 13mm.
me too - i think the 13mm are fine for their only being 2 of them. they are a great supplement and help save cannon rds in deflection shots.
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Originally posted by eskimo2:
When you are shooting from a moving target to another moving target, the situation gets even worse for slower, lighter, quicker decelerating bullets.
Suppose both aircraft are going 300MPH and the shooter is at a dead 6 position 900 yards behind the target (The ballistics computer wouldn't calculate the 131 round beyond 1525 yards... read on). {Each velocity will be increased by 440 FPS.} [300 MPH = 440 FPS = 146.66 YPS]
At 3.918 seconds, the 131 round has traveled 1474.6 yards. It had to go this far because in 3.918 sec. x 146.66 yds. = 574.6 yards that the enemy AC travels during bullet flight time.
574.6 yards (the AC moved) + 900 yards (originally from the target) = 1474.6 yards.
At this point it has a velocity of 702.9 fps.
But, the AC is going 440 fps, so the impact speed is only 258 fps (176 mph).
At 258 fps, its energy is only 13.6 ft./lbs.
The 50 Cal., on the other hand, only has to fly 1094 yards. It does this in 1.324 seconds.
1.324 sec. x 146.66 yds. = 194.2 yards that the enemy AC travels during bullet flight time.
194.2 yards (the AC moved) + 900 yards (originally from the target) = 1094.2 yards.
At this point it has a velocity of 1884.9 fps.
But, the AC is also going 440 fps, so the impact speed is 1444.9 fps (985 mph).
At 1444.9 fps, its energy is still a whopping 3277 ft./lbs.
So, the Mg 131 travels 1474 yards in 3.9 sec. and has 13.6 ft./lbs. of E.
The 50, however, has traveled 1094 yards in 1.3 sec. and has 3277 ft./lbs. of E.
eskimo
Thank you Eskimo! <SALUTE>
This is the exact explaination I would have liked to have written. Thank you for taking the time to explain the numbers and how this all works. Hopefully the rest of certain people will see it and understand also.